Here are the 5.10 Standards- Abide

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Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2006 - 01:21am PT
face out!!!???
huh?







oh, okay, maybe I get it, so getting above the pod, that's what I was meaning.

when winter rolls around, if anyone needs a partner for canyon routes, and someone to follow them, just give me a shout.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 22, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
Face out? are we still talking about Waverly Wafer?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 22, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
Fully peeled outa' that pup,
Owing to said creeper pump.
Carrigan happened to be there gettin' a snap shot.

Years down the pike,
Our very own Mussy Walling head up into it,
I told Mimi Dude:
"Guys fall out 'ah this stuff"
"You better watchim' good".
Then -Kerplooyey!

*Yup, upslotted belay piece recommended on Waverly*
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 22, 2006 - 06:49pm PT
I know I'm jumpin' the thread a bit here,
But how about that Enema Crack, eh?
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 22, 2006 - 07:00pm PT
The Enema, a classic, only one of it's kind.
flaring hands, unlikely rest.
The rating has to be right 'cause it's the only one.

I'm guessing kuh boy Roy likes it for the saddle,
but in any case the Enema is the sh_t!



er, I remembered it as Knott, five ten.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 22, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
maybe the SuperTopo webmaster can put together a form that asks a bunch of questions about your climbing history and then a rating for the climbs....
...anonomous of course...
...and keeping track of the climbs you rate forms an overall opinion about the rating of the climbs.

As far as I know, when ever I rate a new climb I have to think of all the other climbs I've done, and try to puzzle out what moves match... then I come up with a rating. Usually Eric says something like..."naw, we can't climb that hard, it's 5.9" (which solves the mystery of why so many hard climbs are rated 5.9 as far as I'm concerned).

Climbs are not rated by climber consensus... and since the ratings are subjective, and the techniques are hard to cross rate, there is no hope to arrive at a true "standard". In some ways the British adjective system was the best, since there was no chance at all at being mistaken for an objective grade, 'very hard', 'really very hard', 'extremely hard, really', 'kind of difficult'... etc.

Not to mention the fact that some days, the gravitational constant really does seem a lot larger than usual, and the coefficient of friction starts to equal the coefficient of fiction, always a bad sign.

I abide by the old ratings because of the history, those are the ratings that the FA gave the climbs. So little is left of the climbs after the years that we owe, just out of respect and fondness, them the honor of messing us up for all time. Next thing you know we'll be changing the route names (oops, I guess that already happened), and deciding that the people reportedly on the FA didn't deserve to be...

The only way to change the ratings is to introduce an entirely new system, and a body to regulate the rating of climbs, sort of patterned after the Académie française, the body that oversees the French language. Climbers would go through the process of submitting climbing ratings to the regulatory body, a process of vetting the proposed rating, and perhaps deciding on the name too, which results after much considered deliberation on approval or not. In the mean time, climbers would describe the difficulties as "moderate, sort of like this or that climb... bring some small gear for the crux, it's not too bad though".

If not approved, the FA can resubmit the application, after demonstrating that they had addressed the negative points made by the various committees and reviewers.

By the way, the académie started putting a dictionary of the French language together in the 18th century, and abandoned the effort not being able to decide on the words starting with A... you can see the devilish guile such a system would have on the ratings.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 22, 2006 - 10:54pm PT
Ed wrote:
"The only way to change the ratings is to introduce an entirely new system, and a body to regulate the rating of climbs, sort of patterned after the Académie française, the body that oversees the French language."

Well it ain't the Only way cause really, you just have to put out a new guidebook with different ratings.

Check out the difference between the Reid ratings for the pitches of the DNB and the Supertopo ratings. Don't tell me you think the Reid ratings are correct unless you've done the route in the past 8 years or so. Memory of grip and pain tends to fade in time

Peace

Karl
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 22, 2006 - 11:25pm PT
my point exactly, Karl, any Tom Dick or Harry (Steve, Don, Chris or Chris) an write a guide and change "the ratings"...

it's outrageous!
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 12:22am PT
In my mind the hardest climb on that list is without a doubt, Abstract Corner. Us Uplanders (Ricky Accomazzo, Richard Harrison and I) did the second lead of that thing (I think in '73) and a hold broke off, making the opening few body lengths off the ledge quite possibly 5.12. Curious if anyone else has been up there in the last few decades. That might be Bridwell's hardest Yosemit free climb.

JL
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 01:10am PT
Back in the day, or a tad before, 5.9 was the hardest grade in the world, but a lot more of the climbing population could approach it.

Now what percentage of us get close to 5.14 or 5.15, things haven't gotton soft, they got more badass.

Of course, when folks didn't think beyond 5.9 naturally they accidentally climbed much harder than that fairly often.

It is any surprise that, years later, the sandbags are getting unpacked a bit?

Peace

Karl
hollyclimber

Big Wall climber
Seattle, Wa
Jul 23, 2006 - 01:37am PT
My favorite river climb, Generator, doesn't make the OW list? GEEZ.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2006 - 01:55am PT
this ain't no favorties list


these are standards


make yer case for Gen Crack


that is all

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 10:49am PT
Ed Hartouni Said:
"The only way to change the ratings is to introduce an entirely new system, and a body to regulate the rating of climbs, sort of patterned after the Académie française, the body that oversees the French language."

Ed, we do have a regulatory body.
They are duly assembled on the Reardon thread!
Bwahahahaha.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:10am PT
Where is Abstract Corner? S'cuse my knowledge lapse. Sounds like an obscurity worth unearthing.

Peter
WBraun

climber
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:20am PT
At the cookie.

Abstract Corner is the option finish to catchy corner.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:35am PT
Munge wrote

"this ain't no favorties list
these are standards
make yer case for Gen Crack"

Case for Generator Crack:

It's the only hard Offwidth many folks ever do in the valley. They go there to practice up and are then reminded why they avoid offwidths.

Case against Generator Crack:

I think that thing would be 5.11 if it were pitch 8 on the Rostrum or Astroman.

Theory about why some folks like it:

It's like the husband who beats you but you stick with him anyway. There gets to a be a cognitive dissonance where you make excuses for his abusive nature.

Plus, there is pride once you have it wired. I thing shorter, smaller people have an easier time on it too (if they have the technique) so they master it and then bring victims for sacrifice.

Peace

Karl
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:36am PT
OK,
Playing the Munge game as I understand,
"Substitute one route, per post, along with the standard it should represent".

Here's the list with my one change:
Steppin' Out as the standard for 10d OW.
What Say You?
Does it stay?

Face Climb 10a:
Maxines Wall

Face Climb 10b:
East Butt Middle Cath.

Face Climb 10c:
Mothers Lament

Face Climb 10d:
Hot line, 6th pitch

Face Climb 5.11:
Void

Chimney 5.10a:
Hot Line 5th pitch

Chimney 5.10b:
Lost Arrow chimney

Lieback 5.10a:
Twilight Zone, 3rd pitch

Lieback 5.10b:
Wheat Thin

Lieback 5.10c:
Waverly Wafer

Lieback 5.10d:
High Pressure

Lieback 5.11:
Hour Glass, left side

Thin Crack 10a:
Stone Groove

Thin Crack 10b:
New Dimensions first pitch

Thin Crack 10c:
English Breakfast

Thin Crack 10d:
Leaning Meanie

Think crack 5.11:
Abstract Corner Hand and Fist 10a:
Ahab

Hand and Fist 10b:
This and That Second Pitch

Hand and Fist 10c:
Straight Error, 2nd pitch

Hand and Fist 10d:
Final Exam

Hand and Fist 5.11:
Short Cake

OW 5.10a:
Crack of Doom

OW 10b:
Right side of the hourglass

OW 10c:
Houglass left side

0W 10d:
*Steppin' Out*

OW 5.11:
Basket Case

Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 23, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
Not to quibble (right) but;
How about Plumbline instead of Steppin'out (I thought it was a gimmee when it was rated 10c)Plumbline struck me as the real deal, I was glad when it's rating bumped up.

And if I recall correctly, the 10b pitch in LA chimney is a kind of rotten crack thing on one side of the chimeny but involves no chimney technique
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 02:11pm PT
now we are onto something!
OK how 'bout I move steppin' out to 10c OW?
It is a good standard for something...

First time I stacked was on that rig.
Fell out of it too, on follow.
Heavy gravity day,
or just lite!

I missed out on plum line, and it's on my list.

Vendetta all the way to the top is a good standard for something,
what exactly that is I don't know.
hands, OW, then pumpy munge.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
I've done some of the routes mentioned, often long ago. My take on the grading of those I'm familiar with:

Face Climb 10a: Maxines Wall
OK, did it in 1976 and several times since (I assume the reference is to pitch 1)

Face Climb 10b: East Butt Middle Cath.
OK, did it in 1996, did the right hand variation, runout but not that hard, but there are a myriad of variations

Lieback 5.10b: Wheat Thin
OK, did it in 1977, there was one harder balancy move

Lieback 5.10d: High Pressure
OK, did it in 1977, used to be 5.11a (?)

Thin Crack 10a: Stone Groove
OK, did it in 1977, seemed a bit harder

Thin Crack 10d: Leaning Meanie
Isn't it "Leanie Meanie"?
I thought Serenity Crack (3) was considered the standard 5.10d thin crack?

Grades at Squamish, which I'm most familiar with, are sometimes a bit soft. Routes often meet the technical grade, but aren't very sustained or strenuous. My comments allow for that.

Also, any Valley route done in the 1960s, graded 5.9 then, and still graded 5.9, is usually a pretty good workout. Especially longer routes. The Northeast Buttress of Higher Cathedral is an example - probably none of the moves is much more than 5.9, but overall it's a fair effort. I wonder what it would be graded if done anew? Although, as KB mentions, it would be revisionism if not heresy to re-grade such classics.

Anders
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