Here are the 5.10 Standards- Abide

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Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 20, 2006 - 10:59pm PT
Face Climb 10a:
Maxines Wall

Face Climb 10b:
East Butt Middle Cath.

Face Climb 10c:
Mothers Lament

Face Climb 10d:
Hot line, 6th pitch

Face Climb 5.11:
Void

Chimney 5.10a:
Hot Line 5th pitch

Chimney 5.10b:
Lost Arrow chimney

Lieback 5.10a:
Twilight Zone, 3rd pitch

Lieback 5.10b:
Wheat Thin

Lieback 5.10c:
Waverly Wafer

Lieback 5.10d:
High Pressure

Lieback 5.11:
Hour Glass, left side

Thin Crack 10a:
Stone Groove

Thin Crack 10b:
New Dimensions first pitch

Thin Crack 10c:
English Breakfast

Thin Crack 10d:
Leaning Meanie

Think crack 5.11:
Abstract Corner

Hand and Fist 10a:
Ahab

Hand and Fist 10b:
This and That Second Pitch

Hand and Fist 10c:
Straight Error, 2nd pitch

Hand and Fist 10d:
Final Exam

Hand and Fist 5.11:
Short Cake

OW 5.10a:
Crack of Doom

OW 10b:
Right side of the hourglass

OW 10c:
Houglass left side

0W 10d:
Mental block 2nd and 3rd pitches

OW 5.11:
Basket Case

Maybe The Birdman did have it right.

Substitute one route, per post, along with the standard it should represent.
andanother

climber
Jul 20, 2006 - 11:14pm PT
stone groove is a thin crack?

you got some big ass fingers, huh?
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 20, 2006 - 11:45pm PT
last time i did stone groove it was mos def a thin crack. the crux was flared tips, as i recall. but then, the last time i did stone groove was 30 years ago. the most useful pro was first-generation #6 stoppers. the penultimate thin-crack peice.

munge, that list looks dead-on to me. fight the insidious grade creep NOW!!1!1
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
Jul 21, 2006 - 12:39am PT
For them to be standards... people must have done them... lot's of people. Let's start with you munge... have you done them all?

At a minimum your OW list is wacked.... Basket Case???? C'mon! Next guy that does it probably bags the 5th ascent.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 21, 2006 - 12:49am PT
Either way,
Reading that list gives me a boner.

Is that so wrong?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2006 - 01:13am PT
there's nothing wrong with that, first step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one.


I knew someone was liable to call me to the carpet. Russ, hell no, I barely stumble my way into Camp 4 much less do the Hourglass.

However, I will admit that it is a partial list from Bridwell's list in Ascent Mag July 73. Omg i dig that article.

See here's the thing. I have sort of a fetish for grades and grading systems. Not at the grade ticking level, but at the philosophical level.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:20am PT
i personally witnessed his mungedness fire lemon chiffon on his 2nd try in 85 degree temps. the boy has street cred. that don't mean he ain't fullashit like the rest of us, but he's earned his right to spray.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:23am PT
Bridwell? '73??? Makes more sense now. If this was your list, in 2006 1/2, something was up....

Guess the hippy lettuce was pretty good in '73.......
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:24am PT
and then there is the Mental block issue, again.
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:31am PT
hahaha! We both know it is 5.8. Don't tell Melissa!
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:36am PT
She'll never hear it from me!
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:43am PT
Maxine's Wall is more like 5.9, or even 5.8 in modern shoes. Roper called it 5.9 in 1972, and I don't think holds have broken off since then. There are a few thin moves near the bottom. If there were a dozen like that, it would be 5.10.

It's one of those routes, like Peruvian Flake, that somehow (Meyer's guide typo?) were overrated at 5.10, it stuck, and are now coveted by those attempting to skew their Lifetime Tick Average.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:58am PT
Dude,

Maxines was my first 5.10 lead, I was so psyched and proud to send that thing when I was 14 yrs old. (1976)

You can't take that away from me! you just can't!

Peter
nutjob

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jul 21, 2006 - 04:43am PT
for EB middle cath, talking about the left side with bolt ladder that can be aided, or right side that does more traversing? cuz I've seen the left called 10c and right called 10a (and crux was more mental doing LONG run-out when getting lost and going straight up and drifting left after the right 10a section). Last move or two before reaching belay gave me pause, even though only 5.6 - 5.8 range
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jul 21, 2006 - 05:14am PT
Maxines was my first 5.10 lead, I was so psyched and proud to send that thing when I was 14 yrs old. (1976)

In 1976 it was still Roper 5.9. It didn't become Meyer 5.10 until about five years later.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 21, 2006 - 06:15am PT
Lies! (edited)

Face Climb 10a:
Maxines Wall (actually agree more or less) Pro is so good that it seems easier. (that is after you clip the first bolt. Looks like there might have been a fixed pin down low long ago but the flake broke and the first bolt got moved up when it was rebolted. Crazy that you have to boulder the crux before the sport climb starts)

Face Climb 10b:
East Butt Middle Cath. (MAJOR LIE!! The bolt ladder is rated 10c and a total sandbag at that. It's at least 10d or 11a. I hear Ed Barry fell guiding it for YMS once!) Cold Fusion?

Face Climb 5.11:
Void {what's that?)Anchors Away

Lieback 5.10a: Peruvian Flake

Lieback 5.10c:
Waverly Wafer (always a sandbag at 10c. disagree)

Lieback 5.10d:
Waverly Wafer (would have said Good Book but dang rockfall, Second pitch Moratorium? Yin Yang?)

Lieback 5.11
Catchy Corner, pitch 2 La Escuela

Thin Crack 10a:
Stone Groove (rated 10b and I agree, suggest)

Thin Crack 10b:
Stone Groove or Midterm start

Thin Crack 10c:
Mr. Natural, First Pitch Salathe, Lunatic Fringe First and second crux,Manana

Thin Crack 10d:
Leaning Meanie NO WAY. It's 5.11 and I'm stickin to it! Serenity is the standard these days. Catchy? Five and Dime! (problem is that there should be separate finger and off-hands listings)

Hand and Fist 10a:
Ahab (Huh? Sandy sandy sandy. Plus hand and fist is hardly an Ahab feature, Sacherer Cracker is my choice)


Hand and Fist 10b: Rostrum Pitch 3

Hand and Fist 10c: I would have said Good Book (pitch before the final one) but it's too dicey so how about Rostrum pitch 6 before the final 10d lieback. OK That sucks but I'm running out of time here. Meat Grinder?

Hand and Fist 10d Final Exam is too far and Childhood's end is in the rockfall zone???

OW 5.10a:
Crack of Doom (I'd substitute the Rostrum)

OW 5.10c: It's Generator Crack these days, even though I'd call it 10d (if it were on a climb) Twilight Zone unless it's 10d, Mental Block

OW 5.10d Steppin Out or Twilight Zone (some standards eh?)

OW 5.11:
Basket Case (I'd substitute Blind Faith or Cream)

The popularity of routes sure changes in time

Peace

Karl
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jul 21, 2006 - 08:55am PT
How about Twilight Zone for the OW 5.10d? Such a classic...
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 21, 2006 - 09:39am PT
Tom, gotta go with Peter on this one. Maxine's wall was my first 5.10, as well. And I first climbed it in about 1976 when it was definitely called 5.10. The first Meyers guide (green ring top) came out in the seventies, not five years after '76 ie '81. The question of whether it is soft for the grade is another matter. I climbed it a dozen or so times in the years around then but shortly thereafter, I figured out there were other 5.10's I could do, Ahab, Midterm, etc I never climbed it again.
scuffy b

climber
Chalet Neva-Care
Jul 21, 2006 - 11:06am PT
Karl, do you really think Lunatic Fringe is harder than Midterm?
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 21, 2006 - 11:16am PT
Face Climb 10b: East Butt Middle Cath. (MAJOR LIE!! The bolt ladder is rated 10c and a total sandbag at that. It's at least 10d or 11a. I hear Ed Barry fell guiding it for YMS once!)

Are you serious on this one, Karl? Sacherer rated it 5.9, but I always thought it seemed fair to rate it easy 5.10. How did it get to be so hard? (I climbed in EBs.)

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2006 - 12:59pm PT
i got street cred, like I've done an el cap route.
lol, hasn't happened. Unless you count Pine Line. lol!! still got a lot to learn.
but thx anyway Beev.

i thot that article was so thought provoking it deserved some resurrection. Russ, that hippie lettuce must have been AMAZING!

Karl, killer! thx!

10+ years later, Peruvian Flake sounds 9ish sitting in the comfort of my office.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:00pm PT
"scuffy b wrote"

"Karl, do you really think Lunatic Fringe is harder than Midterm?"

Midterm is more physical, but Lunatic is definately harder. I think they are both iconic testpieces for their grade.

I'd solo Midterm long before I'd touch Lunatic. I think on TR I managed to climb all of Midterm into the chimney without touching the crack even. But then I TRed Lunatic Blindfolded. Even so, they are both still hard for me, I just like playing these games.

as for Middle Cathedral. Freeing the bolt ladder is now 10d in my mind. Hard 10c minimum. I don't know what changed. 5.9 isn't the hardest grade in the world anymore, but I like that kind of slab climbing and it feels like a tough pitch to me and I have the beta (stay low on the traverse) I do the 50 crowded variation these days anyway, better climbing and only 10a.

Here's the bloodpumping Yosemite Crack progression

La Cosita Right, then
Moby Dick Center and Reeds Direct, then
Sacherer Cracker and Outer Limits
then Meat Grinder and Lunatic Fringe
then Waverly Wafer, Five and Dime, and Catchy Catchy corner

Just tawkin smack

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:06pm PT
We should work up some lists of "considered light for the grade" and "Sandbag" A lot of the ratings have changed, up and down.

Peace

Karl
goatboy smellz

climber
shakedown street
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
5.10 takes me to my happy space.

edited,
notice the boobies in the blanket.
caughtinside

Social climber
Davis, CA
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
Who does sh#t like climb midterm w/o using the crack, and climbing Lunatic blindfolded?

It's disgusting that you have enough time to climb to do these party tricks!
landcruiserbob

Trad climber
the ville, colorado
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:15pm PT
WTF, Most of them felt like 5.9+ & the rest felt like 5.11-.

A great climbing friend of mine once said before he died of brain cancer at 29"what's that, 5.8 + - ???rg
scuffy b

climber
Chalet Neva-Care
Jul 21, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
One of these has always puzzled me: A Mother's Lament.
It has always been touted as difficult, not just runout and dangerous and requiring steel nerves.
Always. Hard. 10c. One of the Major Test Pieces on the Apron.
10c.
What's up with this?
Steve
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Bodega, CA
Jul 21, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
5.9 should be eradicated from the valley. It's such a disconcerting lie. I certainly wouldn't go by what Roper said was 5.9 in '76. That means its at least 5.10.
scuffy b

climber
Chalet Neva-Care
Jul 21, 2006 - 02:07pm PT
Unless it's 5.9 squeeze, then it's like 5.11b.
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 21, 2006 - 02:17pm PT
You guys are whacked.

On the other hand, if we live long enough, we will have been 5.17b climbers. He, he.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 21, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
I dunno Karl,
I juss dunno.

Have any "disinterested observers" seen you really do any uh that stuff?

Bwa.
Yours,
Tarbousier.
briand

Trad climber
bay area
Jul 21, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
Agree mostly with Karl's list although have not done all the routes listed esp. the OWs like Twilight Zone(anyone?).
I think you guys mean Leanie Meanie and it's absolutely 5.11. Last pitch of New Dimensions is easier and that seems pretty standard for 5.11.
Always get a chuckle when people get on the "classic 5.9s" in the Valley like Reeds Direct for the first time and are flaberghasted by the difficulty.
For the sandbag list, Tideline anyone(in TM)?

Papa Bear
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 21, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
leannie is ruff.
11B fer a bit methinks.

tideline, what rated 10D?
i dunnit' it's lite.
creem puff i tell's ya.
(ok, 11A)

the zone?
hard teh tell, i followed it and swilly bill lead it, but pushed a fatty the whole way.
i got a groin pull on it, reaching out with the right leg.
scuffed up my favrit t-shirt too.

just get mike waugh or lechlinski into this tho and look out,
heads up.
if it ain't 10D in their book (when it's published at 5.11), it's 5.8.

people out here in boulder are always cryin' about "Eldo 5.9" bein' ruff.
panty waists.

D'Oh!

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 21, 2006 - 08:02pm PT
I love these iconic climbs and have done some of them dozens of times, so when I get to TR them sometimes, I see what kind of fun I can milk out of them.

Maxine's goes one handed without too much fuss.

Serenity/Sons is a perfect climb for blindfolded following or a full moon in Summer.

Moby Dick is a good blinkfold climb but don't hit your head on the roof on top.

You'd be surprised how much of Crescent Arch can be done without touching the crack at all. the whole 3 pitch at least.

Life is good. I'm on a scholarship from the universe.

None of the the above means I'm a good climber though. I'm old, fat, weak and haven't improved in decades. You can take liberties with old friends though.

Peace

karl



briand

Trad climber
bay area
Jul 22, 2006 - 12:04am PT
I intended to say Lord Caffiene just to the left of Tideline.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 22, 2006 - 12:37am PT
That one does stand out in my mind as a bit tougher, although I can't remember it specifically.

Now-a-days I couldn't tackle that stuff with four sets of aiders and a hand grenade.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2006 - 12:58am PT
good grief, a climbing thread, about Yos!!!!!


I am ashamed.



Allz I know is that Waverly Wafer felt WAY harder than Catchy Corner and FRICKING light years harder than Catchy. Like if you said Catchy was 10b, I'd be "ok, yeah probably." g'naw mean?

Catchy Corner I've followed with out falls.
But on Waverly, "dude, oh sh#t, oh sh#t, oh shit" I'm going, whoa, slippin, fooooooooooottttttttttt, ..." And I fell... On follow. ahahahahaha panty waste for sure on TR.

Waverly must have a secret getting out of the pod.



Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 22, 2006 - 01:10am PT
Yup, face out towards the valley coming out of the pod if memory serves me.

The trick is not getting pumped in the lieback above. The burn kinda sneaks up on you.

Peace

Karl
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2006 - 01:21am PT
face out!!!???
huh?







oh, okay, maybe I get it, so getting above the pod, that's what I was meaning.

when winter rolls around, if anyone needs a partner for canyon routes, and someone to follow them, just give me a shout.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 22, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
Face out? are we still talking about Waverly Wafer?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 22, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
Fully peeled outa' that pup,
Owing to said creeper pump.
Carrigan happened to be there gettin' a snap shot.

Years down the pike,
Our very own Mussy Walling head up into it,
I told Mimi Dude:
"Guys fall out 'ah this stuff"
"You better watchim' good".
Then -Kerplooyey!

*Yup, upslotted belay piece recommended on Waverly*
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 22, 2006 - 06:49pm PT
I know I'm jumpin' the thread a bit here,
But how about that Enema Crack, eh?
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 22, 2006 - 07:00pm PT
The Enema, a classic, only one of it's kind.
flaring hands, unlikely rest.
The rating has to be right 'cause it's the only one.

I'm guessing kuh boy Roy likes it for the saddle,
but in any case the Enema is the sh_t!



er, I remembered it as Knott, five ten.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 22, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
maybe the SuperTopo webmaster can put together a form that asks a bunch of questions about your climbing history and then a rating for the climbs....
...anonomous of course...
...and keeping track of the climbs you rate forms an overall opinion about the rating of the climbs.

As far as I know, when ever I rate a new climb I have to think of all the other climbs I've done, and try to puzzle out what moves match... then I come up with a rating. Usually Eric says something like..."naw, we can't climb that hard, it's 5.9" (which solves the mystery of why so many hard climbs are rated 5.9 as far as I'm concerned).

Climbs are not rated by climber consensus... and since the ratings are subjective, and the techniques are hard to cross rate, there is no hope to arrive at a true "standard". In some ways the British adjective system was the best, since there was no chance at all at being mistaken for an objective grade, 'very hard', 'really very hard', 'extremely hard, really', 'kind of difficult'... etc.

Not to mention the fact that some days, the gravitational constant really does seem a lot larger than usual, and the coefficient of friction starts to equal the coefficient of fiction, always a bad sign.

I abide by the old ratings because of the history, those are the ratings that the FA gave the climbs. So little is left of the climbs after the years that we owe, just out of respect and fondness, them the honor of messing us up for all time. Next thing you know we'll be changing the route names (oops, I guess that already happened), and deciding that the people reportedly on the FA didn't deserve to be...

The only way to change the ratings is to introduce an entirely new system, and a body to regulate the rating of climbs, sort of patterned after the Académie française, the body that oversees the French language. Climbers would go through the process of submitting climbing ratings to the regulatory body, a process of vetting the proposed rating, and perhaps deciding on the name too, which results after much considered deliberation on approval or not. In the mean time, climbers would describe the difficulties as "moderate, sort of like this or that climb... bring some small gear for the crux, it's not too bad though".

If not approved, the FA can resubmit the application, after demonstrating that they had addressed the negative points made by the various committees and reviewers.

By the way, the académie started putting a dictionary of the French language together in the 18th century, and abandoned the effort not being able to decide on the words starting with A... you can see the devilish guile such a system would have on the ratings.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 22, 2006 - 10:54pm PT
Ed wrote:
"The only way to change the ratings is to introduce an entirely new system, and a body to regulate the rating of climbs, sort of patterned after the Académie française, the body that oversees the French language."

Well it ain't the Only way cause really, you just have to put out a new guidebook with different ratings.

Check out the difference between the Reid ratings for the pitches of the DNB and the Supertopo ratings. Don't tell me you think the Reid ratings are correct unless you've done the route in the past 8 years or so. Memory of grip and pain tends to fade in time

Peace

Karl
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 22, 2006 - 11:25pm PT
my point exactly, Karl, any Tom Dick or Harry (Steve, Don, Chris or Chris) an write a guide and change "the ratings"...

it's outrageous!
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 12:22am PT
In my mind the hardest climb on that list is without a doubt, Abstract Corner. Us Uplanders (Ricky Accomazzo, Richard Harrison and I) did the second lead of that thing (I think in '73) and a hold broke off, making the opening few body lengths off the ledge quite possibly 5.12. Curious if anyone else has been up there in the last few decades. That might be Bridwell's hardest Yosemit free climb.

JL
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 01:10am PT
Back in the day, or a tad before, 5.9 was the hardest grade in the world, but a lot more of the climbing population could approach it.

Now what percentage of us get close to 5.14 or 5.15, things haven't gotton soft, they got more badass.

Of course, when folks didn't think beyond 5.9 naturally they accidentally climbed much harder than that fairly often.

It is any surprise that, years later, the sandbags are getting unpacked a bit?

Peace

Karl
hollyclimber

Big Wall climber
Seattle, Wa
Jul 23, 2006 - 01:37am PT
My favorite river climb, Generator, doesn't make the OW list? GEEZ.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2006 - 01:55am PT
this ain't no favorties list


these are standards


make yer case for Gen Crack


that is all

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 10:49am PT
Ed Hartouni Said:
"The only way to change the ratings is to introduce an entirely new system, and a body to regulate the rating of climbs, sort of patterned after the Académie française, the body that oversees the French language."

Ed, we do have a regulatory body.
They are duly assembled on the Reardon thread!
Bwahahahaha.
Maysho

climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:10am PT
Where is Abstract Corner? S'cuse my knowledge lapse. Sounds like an obscurity worth unearthing.

Peter
WBraun

climber
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:20am PT
At the cookie.

Abstract Corner is the option finish to catchy corner.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:35am PT
Munge wrote

"this ain't no favorties list
these are standards
make yer case for Gen Crack"

Case for Generator Crack:

It's the only hard Offwidth many folks ever do in the valley. They go there to practice up and are then reminded why they avoid offwidths.

Case against Generator Crack:

I think that thing would be 5.11 if it were pitch 8 on the Rostrum or Astroman.

Theory about why some folks like it:

It's like the husband who beats you but you stick with him anyway. There gets to a be a cognitive dissonance where you make excuses for his abusive nature.

Plus, there is pride once you have it wired. I thing shorter, smaller people have an easier time on it too (if they have the technique) so they master it and then bring victims for sacrifice.

Peace

Karl
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:36am PT
OK,
Playing the Munge game as I understand,
"Substitute one route, per post, along with the standard it should represent".

Here's the list with my one change:
Steppin' Out as the standard for 10d OW.
What Say You?
Does it stay?

Face Climb 10a:
Maxines Wall

Face Climb 10b:
East Butt Middle Cath.

Face Climb 10c:
Mothers Lament

Face Climb 10d:
Hot line, 6th pitch

Face Climb 5.11:
Void

Chimney 5.10a:
Hot Line 5th pitch

Chimney 5.10b:
Lost Arrow chimney

Lieback 5.10a:
Twilight Zone, 3rd pitch

Lieback 5.10b:
Wheat Thin

Lieback 5.10c:
Waverly Wafer

Lieback 5.10d:
High Pressure

Lieback 5.11:
Hour Glass, left side

Thin Crack 10a:
Stone Groove

Thin Crack 10b:
New Dimensions first pitch

Thin Crack 10c:
English Breakfast

Thin Crack 10d:
Leaning Meanie

Think crack 5.11:
Abstract Corner Hand and Fist 10a:
Ahab

Hand and Fist 10b:
This and That Second Pitch

Hand and Fist 10c:
Straight Error, 2nd pitch

Hand and Fist 10d:
Final Exam

Hand and Fist 5.11:
Short Cake

OW 5.10a:
Crack of Doom

OW 10b:
Right side of the hourglass

OW 10c:
Houglass left side

0W 10d:
*Steppin' Out*

OW 5.11:
Basket Case

Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jul 23, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
Not to quibble (right) but;
How about Plumbline instead of Steppin'out (I thought it was a gimmee when it was rated 10c)Plumbline struck me as the real deal, I was glad when it's rating bumped up.

And if I recall correctly, the 10b pitch in LA chimney is a kind of rotten crack thing on one side of the chimeny but involves no chimney technique
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 02:11pm PT
now we are onto something!
OK how 'bout I move steppin' out to 10c OW?
It is a good standard for something...

First time I stacked was on that rig.
Fell out of it too, on follow.
Heavy gravity day,
or just lite!

I missed out on plum line, and it's on my list.

Vendetta all the way to the top is a good standard for something,
what exactly that is I don't know.
hands, OW, then pumpy munge.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
I've done some of the routes mentioned, often long ago. My take on the grading of those I'm familiar with:

Face Climb 10a: Maxines Wall
OK, did it in 1976 and several times since (I assume the reference is to pitch 1)

Face Climb 10b: East Butt Middle Cath.
OK, did it in 1996, did the right hand variation, runout but not that hard, but there are a myriad of variations

Lieback 5.10b: Wheat Thin
OK, did it in 1977, there was one harder balancy move

Lieback 5.10d: High Pressure
OK, did it in 1977, used to be 5.11a (?)

Thin Crack 10a: Stone Groove
OK, did it in 1977, seemed a bit harder

Thin Crack 10d: Leaning Meanie
Isn't it "Leanie Meanie"?
I thought Serenity Crack (3) was considered the standard 5.10d thin crack?

Grades at Squamish, which I'm most familiar with, are sometimes a bit soft. Routes often meet the technical grade, but aren't very sustained or strenuous. My comments allow for that.

Also, any Valley route done in the 1960s, graded 5.9 then, and still graded 5.9, is usually a pretty good workout. Especially longer routes. The Northeast Buttress of Higher Cathedral is an example - probably none of the moves is much more than 5.9, but overall it's a fair effort. I wonder what it would be graded if done anew? Although, as KB mentions, it would be revisionism if not heresy to re-grade such classics.

Anders
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
I agree Anders on the 5.9 rating thing.
If you honor the historical context and leave those things rated as they are, then that benchmark engenders a healthy dose of respect, a rite of passage you might say, healthfully preparing the enthusiast for the multi-pitch 5.10/11's.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 03:00pm PT
Madness!

I wonder how many budding 5.10 climbers will know they have ticked the 10a lieback standard when they onsight the 3rd pitch of Twilight Zone? Right side of Pee Pee Pillar should be the 10a lieback standard. It's a 5 minute approach, not a 10c OW approach.

and come on, any who has climbed the bolt ladder on East Butt Free within fresh memory care to claim it's 10b? (I did the East Butt yesterday in 102 degree temps but we did the 50 crowded variation, my head is still swollen from baking)

Peace

Karl
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
I used to guide the east buttress frequently.

I know I used to do it both ways; the more straight forward variation on the left? Although straight forward, I remember it as kind of stiff for the client, whatever the rating.
Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jul 23, 2006 - 04:07pm PT
You can't get a very objective rate value on the E. B. of Middle from someone (like Roy) who grew up at Tahquitz and Suicide. The East Butt is steep thin pure edging (unlike the smearing and "smedging" on most Middle routes) and there's about 500 routes with that kind of climbing at Suicide--but few with that kind of pro (bolt ladder).

Middle Standards look like this (IMO):

5.10 a/b: Powell Reed, Central Pillar (1st 7 pitches), Free Wheeling, Paradise Lost, North Butt., etc.

5.10 c/d: DNB, East Butt, Sachar/Fredricks, Stoners, etc.

5.11 a/b: Pratt/Fredricks (first 5 pitches), Orange Peel, Birchieff/Williams, Worral/Kauk (left of Central Pillar--don't remember name).

5.11 c/d: Black Rose, Mary's Tears, etc.

5.12a: Mother Earth (1st 10 pitches), Direct Start, Central Pillar, Crucifix.

JL

And on and on . . .

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jul 23, 2006 - 07:48pm PT
Man I love this climbing stuff.
What a great thread.

More general input please.

You Lurkers, Make up a name, (your given name will do), Sign in and Post Up!
Largo knows what he is talkin'.
So do you if you've been there.
Let's here it.
It's fun...
Hardly Visible

climber
Port Angeles
Jul 23, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
For 10a ow I think the left side of Reeds makes a pretty good standard that is readily accessable. What do you all think?
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 23, 2006 - 08:24pm PT
I think that there is a difference between 5.9 and 5.10. And I tried to be careful about sandbagging, so my personal ratings were usually:

“It isn’t so hard.”
“It is probably 5.9”
"It is probably 5.10, but maybe I was doing it wrong and it's really hard 5.9."
“It felt like 5.10 to me.

Unfortunately, there were times when really easy moves felt really hard even if I had done them many times before. Occasionally, there were times when a whole series of moves felt like effortless 5.7, then someone would repeat it and curse me for telling them it was not so hard. Go figure.

Like Robbins told Kamps: "People who can't rate shouldn't."

I would give more concrete examples, but Karl has laid down the rule that my memory ain't worth sh#t. Oh well.
yo

climber
I'm so over it
Jul 23, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
Not sure why the new kids always have to catch crap for "ratings creep." Not our fault geezers couldn't climb 5.10.

And hey, Mr. Photgraphic Recall from Cleveland, ain't no way that EB pitch is 5.9.




I really hope I didn't just royally contradict myself.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
"hands, OW, then pumpy munge."

dirty talk is not get anyone anywhere, this is a family forum.

let's keep it clean... C1, C2, and so on.


KB, heard it was 105 in the Valley. stay cool.

hotter than half f*#ked fox in a forest fire in the SJ area.


Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 23, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
Hey, Ryan, I always thought that EB, climbing right over the bolts, was easy 5.10, meaning it wasn't hard 5.10. Big edges the whole way. Nothing weird about it. Now there seem to be lots of variations--why you would climb away from the bolt ladder is beyond me.

I agree with you that the 60s guys--Sacherer in particular--would not rate much of anything 5.10. Apparently he wasn't sandbagging either. He climbed very upright, I have heard, and he believed that the exposure and runout were not important—if it felt like 5.9 off the ground then it should feel the same 300 feet up and 30 feet out. Fortunately, no one agreed with his ratings and most were changed.

Then the early 70s guys had a hard time rating anything 5.11. Jim's letter grades helped a little--even if 5.10g was pretty hard.
yo

climber
I'm so over it
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:14pm PT
Hey Roger,

Been a while but I vaguely recall going just left o' the ladder there for a few moves before realizing those "big" edges were maybe feeling less big. What's the guide call it, 10c? I always figured that was probably right, in that I suck at face and maybe this was the face version of Waverly which is a nad kicker and probably more like 10g and absolutely "hard 10" in the BDS (Breedlove Decimal System, sometimes called the Total Breedlove System or Total BS). So that should clear that East Buttress thing up.


I feel about the YDS the way Mr. Krueger feels about Festivus: I find our belief system fascinating. It's basically non-linear. Or I guess it's linear with gaps. Where 5.9 becomes 5.10 (athletically and/or psychologically) is way fascinating. Same with turning into 5.12--that's serious business, and the hesitation to giving a climb the "benchmark" grade does wacky things. And then all this fuss about the first 5.15. Well what the hell's that mean, anyway? How many 14d's are actually 15a except nobody wants to overrate and look like a tool later. And besides, there's only three people climbing those routes and they're all doing it on their best days so what's that mean? I don't know. Nothing. It's cool, though. I dig that you can still dig up climbs left over from the Dark Ages when 5.9 was the hardest in the world and always would be.

(Oh, and I'm climbing with my matey from Oz later this month. I'm gonna ask him about this stuff, since they've got that open-ended Aussie rating system that goes from 1 to currently 34 or whatever. Is it a big deal to climb your first 20? Inquiring minds must know.)
WBraun

climber
Jul 23, 2006 - 11:52pm PT
Do you guys even know what you are doing?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2006 - 12:10am PT
serious gaps, both in what we are doing and with what we rated. hahahah



Oh, and I'm going to start some more Total Breedlove System discussion, as well, on another thread about 5.15s. They don't exist.


Karen

Trad climber
Good question?
Jul 24, 2006 - 02:43am PT
I know these are not Valley climbs but wondering if some of you guys have climbed this area. Area in mind is up Pine Creek, is Pratt's Crack a "real" 5.9 OW or is it a sandbag? How about the 10a, "Sheila" another sandbag?
Very interested in these climbs, very appealing lines !!!! Heading up there next weekend, so any beta would be appreciated.

Karen
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
Jul 24, 2006 - 12:03pm PT
OT: Pratts crack is soft at 5.9 as far as OW. But you better be pretty solid on 5.9 OW and used to running it out a bit. Sheila is proably 10a.

As for the list....

9th pitch of Freerider is the industry standard for 5.9

16th pitch of the NA is the 10b standard for thin.

Mental Block is still 5.8

1096 is the 5.9 benchmark for asss-kicking
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jul 24, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
I thought 1096 was the standard for 5.10.96, i.e., 0.04 underneath 5.11. Personally, it didn't seem any harder than 5.10.75.
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jul 24, 2006 - 01:21pm PT
Good list, Russ. Helpful too.
rbolton

Social climber
The home for...
Jul 24, 2006 - 02:37pm PT
Russ,

I'm with you on the 5.8 rating for mental block.
Hell, It'd probably be harder if it didn't have those
HUGE bivy platforms to the right of the crack on the second pitch.
aldude

climber
Monument Manor
Jul 24, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
10d face : 6th pitch of Hotlne?? You mean you have to climb the 5.12 crux ( standard for 12a face BTW ) to access the 10d standard for face?? Misty Beethoven is my nominee.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jul 24, 2006 - 03:11pm PT
Who wants to climb Mental Block w/ me at the next Sh!t Talkers convention? (You lead, I'll follow.) I've been wanting to give it another go to see if a few years of wide practice have changed my opinion. My bet is that I'll be able to do it on TR, but I'll be greatful that it wasn't my lead (i.e. not 5.8).
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 24, 2006 - 03:16pm PT
Misty B is rated 11a on the Hall of Mirrors topo and I agree. You have to make thin an repeated hard moves over and over fairly led out. I think it's harder than Green Dragon which is rated 11. (a great route which should be the standard for something)

Peace

Karl
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Jul 24, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
"Butterballs" = the perfect 10c according to "HB" after the first ascent.

"Crack-A-Go-Go" = 10d according to Livesy and Fawcett after first ascent.

Let's keep Yosemite's standards real people! cheers, jb
aldude

climber
Monument Manor
Jul 24, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
Karl - you're confusing difficulty with protection ratings. Misty was established in EBs and held it's 10d rating for 20+ years. Second pitch may be 11a. Considering that many Apron routes ( Clogdance, Perfect Master ect. ) were downrated with the advent of sticky rubber it would be odd to uprate this particular route. Green Dragon 11b if done in one pitch!
Richard Large

climber
where you least expect
Jul 24, 2006 - 03:38pm PT
I rate myself a 5.11b human being. But I've often been told that I'm soft for the rating.
junior

Trad climber
Modesto. CA
Jul 24, 2006 - 04:41pm PT
I think Generator crack is definatly the standard for 10c OW. Twilight Zone didn't really seam like OW because of all the foot holds on the right and your hip shoved into the left wall. I think the last pitch of Freestone has the purest 10c OW I have ever done. Nothing but off sized crack, straight in and no face holds to help.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 24, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
how about the Valley 5.9 standards? and 5.8?

please advise
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 24, 2006 - 05:52pm PT
Aldude said
"Karl - you're confusing difficulty with protection ratings. Misty was established in EBs and held it's 10d rating for 20+ years. Second pitch may be 11a. Considering that many Apron routes ( Clogdance, Perfect Master ect. ) were downrated with the advent of sticky rubber it would be odd to uprate this particular route. Green Dragon 11b if done in one pitch!"

Nope. It's subjective but I think Misty is harder..period. I've done both routes between a half and a dozen times and led Dragon in two pitches and one. I've done em both in EBs too. Let's go Aproneering sometime and compare em.

Perfect Master might be downrated to 11d and there are plenty of bolts too, but I'd like to see a handful of 12c gym climbers get on it and see how far they get.

Funny how ratings change the way we think of routes. Table of Contents pitch one got downrated from 11a to 10b. Seems easier now! Maybe it's the sticky rubber.

Peace

Karl

Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Jul 24, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
"Twilight Zone didn't really seam like OW because of all the foot holds on the right and your hip shoved into the left wall"

you must not be short, because if you were, you'd know how agonizing all those entirely out of reach footholds really are! next time i will be sure to climb w/ my proesthetic right foot extension...
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Feb 13, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Required reading bump!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 13, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Lame thread unless you say 5.10 standards in Yosemite.

I know this is Super Topo but let me say loud and clear!

LADIES AND GENTLEMAN the climbing sun does not rise and fall on Yosemite Valley.

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
2006...Waverly Wafer is 10c, not 10b?..wha...you mean this is a climbing forum? How did I wind up here?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
Waverly Wafer is EVERY BIT of 5.10 c.....some downgrading here, for what purpose?

When i first posted on ST i said that it seemed Yosemite centric and someone rightfully responded....duh! I have more of a background in Yosemite than most who post here and i consider the Valley to be the place where i developed the skills that i have. Given that, the most annoying part of ST, for me, is the excessive reverence, awe, and worship of all things Yosemite.

There is a huge climbing world out there with fantastic diversity. America is famous for it's isolationist attitude....go explore.
Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
I couldn't agree more with that sentiment.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
I was being sarcasimistical there, Jim. The first time I did Waverly it was 10c, now it's 11a, it's NEVER been 10b, and either grade is right or wrong depending on blunt hangovers, sunspot activity, humidity levels, the thickness of our tinfoil hats...I was just amazed to see so many great CLIMBING threads getting bumped!

Although come to think of it, leading that thing with early generation GPIW nuts was...taxing.
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Donini, dammit, if loving Yosemite is wrong I don't want to be right.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 14, 2013 - 12:12am PT
I love Yosemite and i like or love a lot of the climbing areas i've been to on seven continents. All in all it's the best "single" rock climbing venue on the planet. I'm just commenting on the excessive amount of forum presence it gets relative to the thousands and thousands of other climbing venues on the planet. It's (arguably) the single best climbing area but it's still only one of many. I just see the attitude on ST and America in general as too provincial.
I must love Yosemite, i developed my skills there, met lifelong partners in camp 4, pioneered some routes there in the 70's and i'm spending the month of May in the Valley this season.
I moved on from the Valley to far flung ranges in remote corners of the world and have immensly enjoyed discovering and experiencing the incredible diversity this planet offers.
Americans have a reputation (diservedly) for isloating themselves from the rest of the world.
American exceptionalism is a manifestation of that attitude.

edit: ST is too provincial on the national stage as well as the world stage....but it still beats the competition.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Feb 14, 2013 - 12:58am PT
I just see the attitude on ST and America in general as too provincial.
I see your's as too cosmopolitan.
martygarrison

Trad climber
Washington DC
Feb 14, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Leanie Meany 11b the first time you climb it for sure. Even the 10th time it is never 10d.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 14, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
I'll take cosmopolitan over provincial any time.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 14, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
All of the face climbs you are naming are slabs. The ratings are all messed up.

When I went to the Apron we scampered up everything. It was all way overrated. JTree is a little more honest and has real face routes. Eldo is full of face routes that define grades.

Go to Colorado if you want good face ratings. Maxine's would be 5.9, Peruvian Flake would be done by children, and the Apron, although terrific fun, is hard to rate. Now I thought that the E Butt of Middle was actually pretty hard. Very solid 5.10. Green Dragon is certainly 5.11 in EB's.

Valley climbers should not be allowed to rate face climbs. Go to Boulder Canyon and do the starts of Athlete's Feat or Country Club Crack. You will go, WTF? Eldo is an incredible place to climb. One of my fave all time spots. We used to go there every year after it got too hot in the valley.

Rate cracks in Yosemite or Squamish, then rate face routes in Eldo.

That is all sub 5.12 stuff. I dunno about anything harder than 5.11.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 14, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
I did this as a seperate post. It is the reason for ratings creep.

If you climb 5.11 all day long, can you seriously tell the difference between 5.7 and 5.8? Those routes should be rated by 5.8 climbers.

It is that way all the way up. It is impossible to really rate a route that you either have dialed or that is several grades below your pump level.

There isn't a conspiracy. I remember my first 5.8 lead, and it was desperate. Five years later and it was the descent route on soloing binges.

To accurately rate routes, they have to be around your level of difficulty.

I was talking to a guy last year. He told me that he wasn't very good because he could only do 5.13. There are TONS of people that can do 5.14a now. Do you seriously think that they could accurately rate a 5.8?

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 14, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
You're right about that, but even then errors occur....high or low gravity day, sequence missed etc. I think that a climbs rating should be established by consensus. Reverence for the first ascensionist rating is misplaced.

edit: Why is it that people are so afraid to question ratings?
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2013 - 02:46am PT
Hope you all aren't talking to me.


I just report the facts.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Feb 15, 2013 - 06:49am PT
I Never declare a rateing on an FA. I wonder out loud what i think it might be and then ask other folks to give an opinion. I have one friend who is a bit of a dick about it and downgrades everything if he was not part of the FA team...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 15, 2013 - 11:08am PT
What's in a grade

A rating by any method will still be an educated guess.

When Brave New World came out the playing field was clean and even and the set of tools available to most everyone was the same...a rack of nuggets.

Those times on that gear are as good a basis of comparison on which to make an educated guess as we will ever have.

The trend toward upgrading crack routes based on the thrash and effort factor is pretty amusing with a rack of cams. I would love to hear what the ratings would become on a steady diet of Hexes and Stoppers. LOL
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