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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 23, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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I used to guide the east buttress frequently.
I know I used to do it both ways; the more straight forward variation on the left? Although straight forward, I remember it as kind of stiff for the client, whatever the rating.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 23, 2006 - 04:07pm PT
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You can't get a very objective rate value on the E. B. of Middle from someone (like Roy) who grew up at Tahquitz and Suicide. The East Butt is steep thin pure edging (unlike the smearing and "smedging" on most Middle routes) and there's about 500 routes with that kind of climbing at Suicide--but few with that kind of pro (bolt ladder).
Middle Standards look like this (IMO):
5.10 a/b: Powell Reed, Central Pillar (1st 7 pitches), Free Wheeling, Paradise Lost, North Butt., etc.
5.10 c/d: DNB, East Butt, Sachar/Fredricks, Stoners, etc.
5.11 a/b: Pratt/Fredricks (first 5 pitches), Orange Peel, Birchieff/Williams, Worral/Kauk (left of Central Pillar--don't remember name).
5.11 c/d: Black Rose, Mary's Tears, etc.
5.12a: Mother Earth (1st 10 pitches), Direct Start, Central Pillar, Crucifix.
JL
And on and on . . .
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 23, 2006 - 07:48pm PT
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Man I love this climbing stuff.
What a great thread.
More general input please.
You Lurkers, Make up a name, (your given name will do), Sign in and Post Up!
Largo knows what he is talkin'.
So do you if you've been there.
Let's here it.
It's fun...
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Hardly Visible
climber
Port Angeles
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Jul 23, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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For 10a ow I think the left side of Reeds makes a pretty good standard that is readily accessable. What do you all think?
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 23, 2006 - 08:24pm PT
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I think that there is a difference between 5.9 and 5.10. And I tried to be careful about sandbagging, so my personal ratings were usually:
“It isn’t so hard.”
“It is probably 5.9”
"It is probably 5.10, but maybe I was doing it wrong and it's really hard 5.9."
“It felt like 5.10 to me.
Unfortunately, there were times when really easy moves felt really hard even if I had done them many times before. Occasionally, there were times when a whole series of moves felt like effortless 5.7, then someone would repeat it and curse me for telling them it was not so hard. Go figure.
Like Robbins told Kamps: "People who can't rate shouldn't."
I would give more concrete examples, but Karl has laid down the rule that my memory ain't worth sh#t. Oh well.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Jul 23, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
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Not sure why the new kids always have to catch crap for "ratings creep." Not our fault geezers couldn't climb 5.10.
And hey, Mr. Photgraphic Recall from Cleveland, ain't no way that EB pitch is 5.9.
I really hope I didn't just royally contradict myself.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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"hands, OW, then pumpy munge."
dirty talk is not get anyone anywhere, this is a family forum.
let's keep it clean... C1, C2, and so on.
KB, heard it was 105 in the Valley. stay cool.
hotter than half f*#ked fox in a forest fire in the SJ area.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 23, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
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Hey, Ryan, I always thought that EB, climbing right over the bolts, was easy 5.10, meaning it wasn't hard 5.10. Big edges the whole way. Nothing weird about it. Now there seem to be lots of variations--why you would climb away from the bolt ladder is beyond me.
I agree with you that the 60s guys--Sacherer in particular--would not rate much of anything 5.10. Apparently he wasn't sandbagging either. He climbed very upright, I have heard, and he believed that the exposure and runout were not important—if it felt like 5.9 off the ground then it should feel the same 300 feet up and 30 feet out. Fortunately, no one agreed with his ratings and most were changed.
Then the early 70s guys had a hard time rating anything 5.11. Jim's letter grades helped a little--even if 5.10g was pretty hard.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Jul 23, 2006 - 11:14pm PT
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Hey Roger,
Been a while but I vaguely recall going just left o' the ladder there for a few moves before realizing those "big" edges were maybe feeling less big. What's the guide call it, 10c? I always figured that was probably right, in that I suck at face and maybe this was the face version of Waverly which is a nad kicker and probably more like 10g and absolutely "hard 10" in the BDS (Breedlove Decimal System, sometimes called the Total Breedlove System or Total BS). So that should clear that East Buttress thing up.
I feel about the YDS the way Mr. Krueger feels about Festivus: I find our belief system fascinating. It's basically non-linear. Or I guess it's linear with gaps. Where 5.9 becomes 5.10 (athletically and/or psychologically) is way fascinating. Same with turning into 5.12--that's serious business, and the hesitation to giving a climb the "benchmark" grade does wacky things. And then all this fuss about the first 5.15. Well what the hell's that mean, anyway? How many 14d's are actually 15a except nobody wants to overrate and look like a tool later. And besides, there's only three people climbing those routes and they're all doing it on their best days so what's that mean? I don't know. Nothing. It's cool, though. I dig that you can still dig up climbs left over from the Dark Ages when 5.9 was the hardest in the world and always would be.
(Oh, and I'm climbing with my matey from Oz later this month. I'm gonna ask him about this stuff, since they've got that open-ended Aussie rating system that goes from 1 to currently 34 or whatever. Is it a big deal to climb your first 20? Inquiring minds must know.)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2006 - 11:52pm PT
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Do you guys even know what you are doing?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2006 - 12:10am PT
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serious gaps, both in what we are doing and with what we rated. hahahah
Oh, and I'm going to start some more Total Breedlove System discussion, as well, on another thread about 5.15s. They don't exist.
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Karen
Trad climber
Good question?
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Jul 24, 2006 - 02:43am PT
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I know these are not Valley climbs but wondering if some of you guys have climbed this area. Area in mind is up Pine Creek, is Pratt's Crack a "real" 5.9 OW or is it a sandbag? How about the 10a, "Sheila" another sandbag?
Very interested in these climbs, very appealing lines !!!! Heading up there next weekend, so any beta would be appreciated.
Karen
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:03pm PT
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OT: Pratts crack is soft at 5.9 as far as OW. But you better be pretty solid on 5.9 OW and used to running it out a bit. Sheila is proably 10a.
As for the list....
9th pitch of Freerider is the industry standard for 5.9
16th pitch of the NA is the 10b standard for thin.
Mental Block is still 5.8
1096 is the 5.9 benchmark for asss-kicking
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 24, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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I thought 1096 was the standard for 5.10.96, i.e., 0.04 underneath 5.11. Personally, it didn't seem any harder than 5.10.75.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 24, 2006 - 01:21pm PT
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Good list, Russ. Helpful too.
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rbolton
Social climber
The home for...
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Jul 24, 2006 - 02:37pm PT
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Russ,
I'm with you on the 5.8 rating for mental block.
Hell, It'd probably be harder if it didn't have those
HUGE bivy platforms to the right of the crack on the second pitch.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Jul 24, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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10d face : 6th pitch of Hotlne?? You mean you have to climb the 5.12 crux ( standard for 12a face BTW ) to access the 10d standard for face?? Misty Beethoven is my nominee.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 24, 2006 - 03:11pm PT
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Who wants to climb Mental Block w/ me at the next Sh!t Talkers convention? (You lead, I'll follow.) I've been wanting to give it another go to see if a few years of wide practice have changed my opinion. My bet is that I'll be able to do it on TR, but I'll be greatful that it wasn't my lead (i.e. not 5.8).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 24, 2006 - 03:16pm PT
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Misty B is rated 11a on the Hall of Mirrors topo and I agree. You have to make thin an repeated hard moves over and over fairly led out. I think it's harder than Green Dragon which is rated 11. (a great route which should be the standard for something)
Peace
Karl
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jul 24, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
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"Butterballs" = the perfect 10c according to "HB" after the first ascent.
"Crack-A-Go-Go" = 10d according to Livesy and Fawcett after first ascent.
Let's keep Yosemite's standards real people! cheers, jb
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