Haul Lords: rate my 2:1 ratchet

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ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
May 11, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
In the above diagram:

Get rid of the "Frost Draw" and clip the ratchet in to the bottom hole, where it says biner required. Simple and easy to go back and forth between both systems.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
Thanks for the tip Ammon, neat trick. The only downside I see is a bit more of the zed cord in the system but it does seem streamlined.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 11, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
^^ You're both right.

The whole idea is to minimize the amount of "stuff that stretches" in the system.

You don't necessarily need a Frost Draw. You could use carabiners or even Spectra webbing tripled or whatever. You just have to play around with it, and figure out the configuration that works best for you. Once you understand it, you can fine tune it. Orientations and lengths are critical - the pulleys all have to mesh with virtually zero haul line between the teeth of the inverted ascender and the holding device, which in this drawing is the Pro-Trax.



What's funny and what I just noticed in the drawing above is that Mike! might have taken some artistic license with the Frost draw. Note how the ends are rotated 90 degrees from each other. I don't think Tom made them that way!

In fact, I'm sure the ends of the Frost Draw are knott like that. Mike! has cleverly drawn the system in sort of a "flat plane" - in reality, the zed-cord aligns more or less straight into the wall in front of you, while the free end of the haul line coming out of the Pro-Trax goes ninety degrees right and parallel to the wall. Clever drawing. Mike! can draw anything - he's just amazing that way. He got this sketch perfect in only a couple emails back and forth, too.

Plus the drawing is the way I operate it, as I'm left handed. If you're a "righty" you will need to adjust it accordingly, which is sort of a mirror image, but sort of not. Which is why you need to practise!

Ammon is probably the only guy on the forum - and maybe anywhere! - who has used the Chongo ratchet extensively before me. Ammon's first big wall ever was a solo of the NA Wall on El Cap. He showed up in Yosemite, Chongo showed him how to make the ratchet, and then Ammon sent.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 11, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
I do a somewhat simpler version by which I can still easily haul 150% of my body weight.

The inverted Gibbs (in my case) is on a sling to allow the Gibbs to slide down about two to three feet below me on the rope heading down to the bag. The regular ascender is attached to the "pull" side of the rope as in a traditional set up.

I reach down with one hand, grab the Gibbs sling, thrust down with my body weigh, and pull up on the Gibbs sling.

By pulling up on the Gibbs sling, I'm effectively adding weight to myself, which increases the pull on the pull-side of the pulley. At the same time, I'm pulling up directly on the bag via the Gibbs. So, I'm adding pull to the traditional system both directly and indirectly.

You might think this would get really tiring, particularly for the Gibbs arm, but surprisingly it really doesn't. And this setup doesn't have any more complication than a traditional setup (except for adding an inverted Gibbs to the mix).

Unlike a 2-to-1 setup, you're not thrusting 1 foot to gain 6 inches. You "get it all" with the simplified setup, but you also radically increase your effective pulling power at little increase of overall effort. Thrust down a foot, and the bag comes up a foot.

Many of you, I'm sure, have done something much like this when hauling over any edge, as you just grab the down-rope with one hand and pull up to help get a body-weight thrust started. On the setup I'm describing, you simply "go straight at" that intuition and make it as efficient as possible.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
May 12, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
I never use a foot to haul, if the haul is light enough for a leg to haul then it's light enough for both hands to pull 1:1.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 12, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
RE: middle figure in Steve's post Fig. 6-46

well, like I said, I get this stuff wrong all the time, funny... actually rgold does a better job.

one way to look at it is by the tensions in each of the lines, there are three in lines, one to the pig ("the load") which is directed over the first pulley...

the second line goes to the the second pulley,
and the third line to the attachment point...

so let's look at the "static" forces...

if nothing is moving ("static"), the tensions in these three lines is equal. The tension in the first line is the weight of the pig.

the force that the first pulley exerts on the attachment is twice the weight of the pig.
the force on the jumar attaching the end of the line is the weight of the pig...

interestingly, the force exerted on the second pulley is twice the weight of the pig, so yes, in this analysis you have to put more force to lift the pig then the weight of the pig...

But there is a bright side to this... for every meter you push down the 2nd pulley, 2 meters of rope have to be drawn in (there are two lines "connected" to that pulley), so the pig gains 2 times the extension of the 2nd pulley.

For small loads, e.g. < body weight, this system would be faster than the one-to-one pull, at least in principle.



FULL DISCLOSURE CLAUSE: I've only ever hauled stuff up hand-over-hand, or with a 1-to-1 ratchet... and never had to resort to any of these rigging shenanigans... my loss which I hope to amend someday (soon). Consider me, for the purposes of these discussions, to be a "theoretical big wall hauler"
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 12, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Ed- I have never found the need to use anything more than a single pulley system while counterbalance-hauling with a third Jumar to gut haul on anything that I have done on El Cap.

Keeping the weight down always did the trick. That folks insist on tackling FA sized loads on every vertical battle of attrition is pretty mind boggling.

I didn't post the hauling diagrams from Aleith's book because I champion his methods. I simply see a lot of twisting, cinching and stretching in the systems shown starting from the powerpoint on down. I agree with Werner that using double pulleys and a mini block and tackle might be a cleaner system if weight and speed aren't a concern.

With a Protrax or something sturdy as the principal catch point it would be interesting to see how light you could get a triple pulley set up from a yachting supply if you dropped the cord diameter.

The load table that Aleith provides is interesting in that he provides some empirical data using both carabiners and pulleys. He was a technical illustrator at a large engineering firm and heavily involved with Search and Rescue around Phoenix. I will post more of his manual at some point on a dedicated thread.

Pete proudly bellowing STUPID from the bottom of the academic barrel is rich indeed.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 12, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Totally agree, Ammon. Leg-hauling is useless.

Hey, how's the leg? I hope you're doing well and not suffering lingering effects.
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
I was wondering if a 2/1 could be rigged without using an auxiliary cord--by using the haul line itself. Its easy of course to rig a 1/1 and the 3/1 is pretty obvious as well. A 3/1 one is a lot action for very little traction and a 1/1 can be a ton. Of course the middle drawing a few posts back was a 1/2 boo boo. Here is what I came up with: I realized in the 3/1 if the middle pulley was replaced by a knot it became a 2/1. Photos and a drawing to come on the next post as this computer won't let me download pictures!
Chappy
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 12, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
I was wondering if a 2/1 could be rigged without using an auxiliary cord--by using the haul line itself.

I think not... here are some images from http://www.swe.org/iac/lp/pulley_03.html


1:1 with pulley (the other 1:1 doesn't have a pulley, it is just pulling the load up by the rope)


2:1:


3:1


4:1


what you notice is that for an "even" advantage system, 2:1, 4:1, etc... the pulley attached to the weight is "free," where as in an "odd" advantage system 1:1, 3:1, etc.. thy pulley is attached to the same rope... or to the anchor point...

if that second pulley is "free", there is no way to implement the rigging with the single rope connecting the load.
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Finally! Here is a crude drawing of the system. The haul loop may need...
Finally! Here is a crude drawing of the system. The haul loop may need a little assistance to help it feed until the loop was of sufficient weight. I am also making the assumption one would have a little length of haul line to work with at the end of the
Credit: chappy
Step one set up a 1/1 with a wall hauler or traxion from the becket of...
Step one set up a 1/1 with a wall hauler or traxion from the becket of the pulley and pull all slack (you can float the bag if you can/wish)
Credit: chappy
Make a knot in the haul line approximately twice the distance in you w...
Make a knot in the haul line approximately twice the distance in you want to pull (6 ft?)
Credit: chappy
Attach knot next to wall hauler
Attach knot next to wall hauler
Credit: chappy
Pass tail through jumar pulley and then up through the upper pulley. C...
Pass tail through jumar pulley and then up through the upper pulley. Clip inverted jumar/pulley on haul line and tie a knot in the tail and attach to your harness and start hauling!
Credit: chappy
It should look like this. The upper right hand line will have the harn...
It should look like this. The upper right hand line will have the harness attachment knot. The haul loop is formed by the bottom two lines.
Credit: chappy
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Ed,
What I designed (in a sense)is the 2/1 in image number three of your post. It is in fact a 2/1. 1/2 the load is carried by the knot anchored to the wall hauler biner and the other 1/2 load is attached to your harness. One thing I realized a long time ago is that in an odd system (1/1 3/1 etc.) the line is always dead tied to your load. In an even system (2/1 4/1 etc.)the dead tie is at your pick point or anchor and only pulleys are attached to your load (as in the case of this system)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 12, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
I agree that your system is a 2:1 chappy...

the length of rope from the harness to the knot is a piece of the rope for sure... is plays the role of the "z-cord" in the other example from PTPP above...

it's the erroneously labeled "4:1" in the post that Steve made above:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2132804&msg=2134040#msg2134040
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 12, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Ha! Good work, Mark!

I carry my "hauling kit" all set up in a medium Fish Beef bag and be set up and ready to haul in seconds.

Simply understanding how to set up a mechanical advantage on the fly, using what ever gear is available is a great trick for climbers to have.
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Mark,
It's fun to play around with variations of parted systems. It's probably easier to use your kit but it's nice to play around with variations. It was a fun little puzzle. When one understands the basics you can always design something that works with what is available. I get to play with puzzles like this a lot with my rigging work.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 12, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
That's what I figured.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 13, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
Keeping the weight down always did the trick. That folks insist on tackling FA sized loads on every vertical battle of attrition is pretty mind boggling.

You guys continue to not to get the point. Its some sort of ego thing I guess. It's not so much the ability to haul more, as it is to haul it with less effort. Do you really think that everyone who chooses to haul via 2:1 is taking monster loads? Really? Don't you think that some of those people are taking the average, everyday loads that most climbers would take?

On my Zenyatta Mondatta solo for example, I found that hauling via 2:1 was very easy but when I tried to haul 1:1 it took simply more effort that I cared to give it.

I simply did not want to work that hard!

Get it?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 13, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
As a side note, I wish I had a photo of this, I was hiking back to the road after humping a load to the base of El Cap and was walking behind a woman who had blisters larger than half dollars on each hip! The skin had broken off and everything. I'll bet she would have appreciate some 2:1 hauling information!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 13, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
I simply did not want to work that hard!

Get it?


ah, ya, but like, you're climbing a wall...that work is supposed to be hard.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 13, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
You mean I'm doing wrong? It's supposed to be hard? You mean I can't use all these little tricks I've developed to make things easier?

Dang!
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