Haul Lords: rate my 2:1 ratchet

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matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Original Post - May 7, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Soooo...I'm prepping for a route with partner who's a lightweight @ 125lbs. Started playing around with a 2:1 ratchet so he can haul and that I could use on solos later this year. After reading a bunch of stuff online this is what I have. There are several changes I would be making for real system (this is just a garage prototype).

Credit: matty

These things will be changed:

a) Pro-trax in final version not micro.
b) Several pieces of 6 or 7mm cord connecting top pully to biner.
c) thicker cord for ratchet line (7 or 8mm)


These are things I'm concerned about:

1) I'm using a petzl rescue pulley on top and when I span it with a biner like Hudon it will not sit nicely in the middle, as you can see in the picture the biner with the micro(pro)-Trax sits off to one side or the other. Is this a problem?

2) Related to #1...because the trax is not directly under the pulley will this result in movement and lost efficiency? Will the movement cause the cord at the top of the to pulley to wear out quickly?

3)Should I worry about a backup? Seems like the two ratchets back each other up...if both were to fail (or the cord up top) seems like the bag would just drop until it is caught by a backup knot. A backup (like a quickdraw) would not prevent this so is it even necessary?

4)Would it be better to just connect the trax to the haul biner and not use the biner spanning the pulley?


Any tips/tricks/ideas/improvements/thoughts from the resident haul lords (Hudon/PTPP etc...) out there would be appreciated. Thanks

Matt
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
If you're gonna go thru all that trouble I personally would use a petzl double pulley to simplify those two systems.

This way you can easily switch out your 2 to 1 to 1 to 1 quickly and efficiently.

Also I would use 8mm cord for your 2 to 1 ratchet setup.

And I would use a prussic on the main haul line and have it work as a prussic minding pulley system.

The Petzl Protraction I wouldn't even bother with.

But whatever ... do what you need to do and what I said above is only what I would do if I had to haul all that sh!t.

Why people haul so much sh!t these days anyways?

Good luck on your adventure .......
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
May 7, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
It seems like a probable cluster to have your rope-grabbing pulley connected to your 2:1 system.

What I like to do, being the lighter, slower, and wimpier climber most often, is switch to two people hauling 1:1 when the follower hits the belay. The lighter person runs the cord from their harness, through a high pulley, and to the jug and haul 1:1 on the bag side while the bigger partner hauls 1:1 on the standard/more efficient rope side.

If the 2:1 biner is weighted with the bag pulley, you can't rerig it as easily.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
May 7, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
But then he has to do J :)
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
May 7, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Do him? This what I've done w/ all of my partners, minus the 2:1. Obviously it doesn't apply if you're speedy enough to have the pitch hauled before the second arrives, but 2:1's don't usually imply teams moving fast and light. This is just a way of simul-hauling that is easier to coordinate and keeps the helper/second from feeling like a rat on a demoralizing, sinking exercise wheel. I hate that.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
May 7, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
That what I use, exactly the same, though I swaged a fat cable connection from the upper pulley instead of the cord.

Doesn't get more streamline than that.



briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 7, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
That's the setup I have been playing with too.

No need to go to a pro traction. It's not like that is actually the pulley you are hauling off of, so why would you need to change it? Get what I mean?
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
May 7, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Ditto for the gerbil feeling...so demoralizing.
Prod

Trad climber
May 7, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
No need to go to a pro traction. It's not like that is actually the pulley you are hauling off

Looks like it is the pulley that is is hauling off of when he switches to 1:1.

Prod.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Thanks for the input everyone...

In my system there the micro(or a pro) would be holding the weight of the bags as the ratchet resets and would be used for to 1:1 also.

I was thinking the micro may not be enough for a big load (lets say 150-200lbs) but I just looked again at the specs for pro vs micro trax and not much difference. Perhaps I can keep the micro. Not tried to haul with it yet (just bought it). Probably want a bigger diameter wheel for a big load 1:1

How much does everyone haul off a micro?

Off to climb now...may try the ratchet with some changes.

Prod

Trad climber
May 7, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
BTW, I had a Protraxion deform because it did not center on the biner I was using. Try the Petzl Atache if you get one. It works great for me.

Prod.
Jacemullen

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 7, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Considering there is a one Kn difference in between the Pro and Micro traxion as far as working loads go, and only a 5% difference in efficiency, I don't see any reason to dump cash on a protraxion. Especially since there is like 6oz weight difference between the two.
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
May 7, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
I rate it a waste of time.

1:1 or ya might as well just bail.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
May 7, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
^^bullsh#t.

That's like saying free climb or bail. Do 1:1 if you can, but otherwise do the best you can with what you can.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
The pro trax is way old so no extra cash there.

Tried the ratchet with a few changes tonight and seemed to work well (very low haul load though). I'll post another pic tomorrow. I hung the micro off a short sling from the top biner and that was ok too.

I've climbed walls before (solo too) but always 1:1 now I have a lighter partner and wanted to play around and see what's what. If we use it it would probably only be for his pitches at the start.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
May 7, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
I hauled 500lbs with that same rig, using a mini-trax in place of the micro.

Don't know how you would 1:1 that kind of load.

Different systems on different routes.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
May 8, 2013 - 05:30am PT
Hey Matty,

I am just a hauling student like you. My interest is in learning the tricks of the trade and applying it to my new hobby of climbing photography. The hauls I do are relatively light weight, and so far not redundant; however, I take a great deal of interest in what you are trying to accomplish here and have some questions, a critique, some observations, and some recommendations that might help or at least contribute to the discussion.

QUESTIONs:
Is this a 'piggy back' 2:1 / 1:1 system?
If so, why are the two rope capture devices stacked up?
Why do you need redundancy like this (stacked)?
If redundancy is needed, Why not make two parallel systems?

OBSERVATIONs:
From the anchor you have the Petzl rescue pully (fixed) which redirects the cord you pull to bring the load up. From there the cord goes down to the mechanical advantage (moving) pully which appears to be the micro trax (in rope capture mode). That alone is your 2:1 system.

CRITIQUE:
I don't understand the need for all of the rest given the way it is setup (ie, ascender underneath the moving pully). The second rope capture device (ascender) would work independently if you placed it under the second fixed pulley (linked with utility cord). Having them stacked in this way seems to nullify the purpose of the ascender since it is moving WITH the load. This is too much stuff IMO.

RECOMMENDATIONs:
I think this could be improved by the use of a small rigging plate (RP) ($25), where you could attach one end of the cord to the anchor (via RP), and have that neatly balanced with the fixed pully.

Get rid of the second system completely and use the ascender to pull the cord through the fixed pulley. Even with a 2:1, you're talking about a significant amount of weight and pulling with just your hand is going to stress the muscles in your hands (even if you wear gloves). This can become very painful over a day or two and affect your climbing.

Thanks for posting up with your system and for asking questions that generate a discussion you and others like myself can learn from. I appreciate that Matty.

Regards,
Bill McKirgan




###???###???###
As I get ready to 'post this reply' I'm wondering if there really is some advantage to having a 'stacked' system like this. If there is, it is a mystery to me as I cannot imagine how pulling two cords simultaneously would create any advantage This just doesn't seem to make sense to me, and that's mainly because I am imagining what happens if you let go of both cords there in the picture of your system in the garage. I think it would all be held by the micro trax, but then you wouldn't be able to push the ascender down to grab more of the larger cord since the micro is locked to the anchor.

Please Haul Lord Illuminati explain!
Prod

Trad climber
May 8, 2013 - 05:53am PT
Hi Bill,

In this case you are pulling the 7mm cord in a 2:1 which is pulling the assender and haul line up. The Mini trax then holds the rope so you can push the assender back down the haul line and start pulling 2:1 again. You do not need to pull both the cord and the haul line.

Prod.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
May 8, 2013 - 06:51am PT
Hi Prod,

Okay, but what holds the other (green) cord? Is the 1:1 fixed pulley a rope capture type of pulley? If so, then I get it.

Otherwise, it looks like one would have to hang on to that green cord while pushing the ascender down.

Thanks!

--Bill

--edit: I thought the moving pully was the mini/micro trax (on the 7mm). I guess the haul line (green cord) has the mini/micro trax as the fixed pulley.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 8, 2013 - 06:53am PT
Bill, that gold pulley is a hauling rope capture device called a micro traxion. So no you don't have to hold the green rope. You just have to pull the slack through when you haul up on the 2:1 system.
fat-n-sassy

Social climber
San Francity, CA
May 8, 2013 - 07:14am PT
U guys really have over thought this hauling thing.

Think less, eat more. Hauling is a breeze!

Also, 20 posts and no one has told this poor sap that he's gonna die?

Supertopo slacking hard today.

Lastly, setup looks fine. Details are pretty trivial in the grand scheme.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
^^^Details are trivial...lol! Im dead for sure...


Here is slightly different setup. Micro trax on sling from seperate biner. better for switching to 1:1

Credit: matty


Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 8, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Wait till you see how much that sling stretches under a load. You'll be amazed.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
May 8, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
That's a much better picture of the entire system. Thanks for sharing your ideas so that others may learn. I may give this a try in the safety of my back yard in the next few days. Great way to keep the neighbors guessing.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Yeah hope it helps. Search for info on 2:1 hauling ratchet and you'll find lots of good stuff but its always nice to have some direct feedback.

So I guess the next best step is for me to replace the green sling to the micro trax with a special cable draw or fat nut for a trial run.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
May 8, 2013 - 08:22pm PT

speaking of hauling ...

...

is there a rule of thumb for how heavy a soloist's pig should be for a five day/four night ascent of El Cap? I'm thinking bodyweight would be a good measuring stick, or maybe 3/2 body weight

thoughts?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 8, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Add it up.

I take 3 quarts per day and one day extra and one day for emergency. Five days = 5.25 gallons. Water weighs 8.33 pounds NOT INCLUDING ITS CONTAINER. A half gallon water bottle weighs 6 ounces. So 5.25 X 8.7 = 45.67 pounds.
A Metolius Half Dome Haul bag, empty weighs 10 pounds
A Metolius Double Ledge and its fly weight 25 pounds (a single doesn't weigh that much less)
Food is about 2.5 pounds a day and a single 16 ounce beer, even though it's liquid measurement, weights 16 ounces, or one pound. Five days, five beers, five pounds.
Your clothes, if you have very good gear, weighs four to five pounds.
Your jetboil stove, fuel, coffee cup, coffee, filters, spoon, handi wipes, your personal hygiene kit, your Waste Case add up to 10 or 15 pounds.
Sleeping bag, foam pad, add another three pounds if you have really good stuff.
Phone, iPod, speakers, batteries, radio, Those things are heavy. 2.5 pounds

My rack alone for Iron Hawk, every bit of gear, weighed 58 pounds, your ropes weight 12 pounds each. (although you are not actually hauling all of your gear or both ropes, you are hauling the haul line and at least half of the gear.

So, including only half of your gear and one rope you are at 162 pounds.

I'm not estimating either, I've weighed all this stuff.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 9, 2013 - 03:33am PT
Wow. Um, lots of answers up there. Not many of them are much use, however, although a few points are correct.

Here is what you need to do, Matty:

 the most important thing is to minimize the amount of "anything that can stretch" in your system

 things that stretch in the system include the haul line, the zed-cord, and that sling you have in the second photo to lower the Micro-Trax = "holding ratchet" to the correct distance

 positioning all the components to the correct distance is essential to make the thing work!

 the stretchiest component in the system is the zed-cord, and to make the device work, you have to make sure that at the top of the lifting stroke the zed cord pulls tight, and the pulleys come together and touch. At the same time, there must be zero haul line between the toothed cam of the inverted ascender and the tooth of the holding ratchet

 in the first photo, there will be too much space between the cam teeth at the top of the stroke, and the setup will knott work

 in the second photo, you look to have solved the problem of distance, however you introduced a sling which Mark correctly points out will stretch a lot

 in the second photo, if you replace the sling with a wired stopper, or better yet a wire Frost Draw if you can find one, it will work much better. You do need to lower the holding ratchet device in order to make sure to minimize the amount of haul line between the toothed cams when your pulleys mesh together

 the top setup won't work the way it's set up because of all the excess cordage

 the way you have the upper pulley on the zed-cord in the second photo is really good - a doubled piece of green cord. You need this to allow a twist in the upper pulley to introduce the necessary degree of freedom. But consider replacing this "round" green cord with a doubled piece of webbing which is "flat" - this will not abrade as quickly, and reduce cluster as well. Tie this doubled webbing as short as you possibly can, so the overall length is about the same as your doubled green sling

 after hundreds of pitches of trial and error, I can say with certainty that you want 7mm perlon cord as your zed-cord. While 5.5mm Spectra works fine for a while, and doesn't stretch a bit, it abrades very quickly and sometimes breaks on you while you are hauling! Scares the bejeepers out of you, too. 6mm is ok, but a bit stretchy. 8mm is overkill.

 make your zed-cord about 15' long, and coil up the excess. You can use this to cross a knot joining haul lines, which happens from time to time. To do this, you lower the inverted ascender all the way down, which would be around 7' on a 15' zed-cord, and put both your ascenders on the zed cord and jug it. You introduce slack into the haul line and can easily pass the knot through the holding ratchet

 it matters little which holding ratchet you use - Mini, Pro or Micro-Trax, Wall Hauler, Kong Block-Roll. What's important is that everything "meshes together" to minimize slack

 there are four possible orientations about which way the haul line goes through the holding ratchet, and which way the zed-cord gets added to the system. 3 don't work so well, one works best, so find out which one it is and stick with it

 IMPORTANT: something I forgot to mention - if you have a "good" pulley and a "not so good" pulley, be certain to put the "good" pulley on top, and the "not so good" pulley on the bottom on the inverted ascender. This is because the upper pulley spins twice as fast, but has also been tested experientially, which is easy to do. Just try your 2:1 using a carabiner instead of a pulley. If you have only a crab on top and a pulley on the bottom, you can't budge the thing. But if you have a pulley on top, and a carabiner on the bottom, it will still work. Try it!

 save yourself a lot of heartache, and get yourself a static haul line. In the photo above, your haul line looks to be a dynamic climbing rope. While the 2:1 hauling ratchet does work ok on a dynamic haul line, like your old retired lead rope, it works MUCH better on a static haul line

 Finally, when you haul, put a pair of carabiners on your harness, and clove hitch the zed-cord through them. This will allow you to tune the length of cord to the nearest millimetre, which you need to do fine tune the device. Once you're finished hauling, you'll find it's far easier to remove the clove hitch in the zed cord from two carabiners instead of one. That clove gets pretty tight!

 Do not for a moment think that you can make this thing work in the Real World. It won't. You need to go to your local crag and practise hauling heavy pigs. There are a hundred little tweaks you need to make for the device to work, but once you get it sussed, it will positively sing.

 Take along enough food, water and beer to "win by attrition". Keep on keepin' on, don't bail, and you will eventually reach the summit.

Cheers, eh? And see you on the bridge in a few weeks.
Pete

To answer Bill's questions:

 Yes, it is a piggyback system. It is nothing more than a regular 1:1 hauling system, with the 2:1 section as an add on, which you correctly observed. You don't need the redundancy, however it is an extra benefit

 you need a lifting ratchet [inverted ascender] and a holding ratchet [hauling device] to make it work. Think about it...

 the rigging plate sounds great in theory, however it does knott work because the whole system "rocks". You need everything attached to a single point of attachment
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
May 9, 2013 - 04:45am PT
photos please PTPP?
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 06:53am PT
Pete -

Thank you for taking the time to type up your thoughts. I often wonder how you have the energy to keep explaining the same sh#t over and over again to climbers of all types. I know I've learned a lot from reading your posts here and on other sites, and I know there are a lot of other lurkers here and elsewhere who read your stuff and appreciate it so let me say thanks again.

As to the hauling ratchet...


The flat webbing you suggest to replace the green 7mm cord up top, you mean like 1' or 9/16 flat tubular style webbing?

The haul line will certainly be static (got a new 70m on the way, old one starting to wear out....time to donate a fixed line=)

The zed cor will be replaced...that red 6mm is just a placeholder.

I will certainly try it out first and make sure I know which of the possible 4 orientations work best.


I'll be in the valley next week but just long enough to blast and get back down, be back for longer in June.

Cheers, Eh...(I'm from Michigan and spend each summer on a small island near Killarney, ON)


Matt




Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 9, 2013 - 07:02am PT
Dang, Pete,

Finally, when you haul, put a pair of carabiners on your harness, and clove hitch the zed-cord through them. This will allow you to tune the length of cord to the nearest millimetre, which you need to do fine tune the device. Once you're finished hauling, you'll find it's far easier to remove the clove hitch in the zed cord from two carabiners instead of one. That clove gets pretty tight!

I've used a biner with a round cross section since the clove hitch really tightens up to the edges on irregular cross sectioned biners, but using two biners is a far better idea.

Sweet!

Thanks for that!
Ian Jewell

climber
May 9, 2013 - 07:10am PT
i was thinking the same thing matty said regarding pete's response

it is pretty amazing to have a resource like that literally at your fingertips at the keyboard in your home in michigan or wherever.
and not only the diagrams, photos, and stuff he posts, but, like matty said, detailed response, analysis, and feed back on what YOU post
it is kind of like having a professor at your service without having to pay any tuition.

pete , you must be a hell of a typist.

thumbs up for Doctor Piton


edit:
Hudon too , posts, videos, feedback, T.R.'s
this place is a valuable resource.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
May 9, 2013 - 07:15am PT
This thread is what this site is about, lots of great info here. Thanks everyone
Prod

Trad climber
May 9, 2013 - 07:16am PT
I have never had to use a 2:1 system, but have read nearly every post out there. Even own Chongo's book.

2 questions.
1. Does the jumar on the lower line self feed down the line when you release the Zed line?
2. It sounds like you are body hauling on the Zed line via the clove hitch to 2 biners? Why not use your other Jumar?

Prod.
Ian Jewell

climber
May 9, 2013 - 07:25am PT
that's funny prod, same with me.

i have 15 el cap ascents, and i have NEVER used anything other than a basic 1:1 through a petzl ptotrax , which would land me at the bottom of the class at dr.piton university.

then again, i have never soloed anything bigger the column.

even with having just looked at matty's setup five minutes ago , i would probably fumble my way through a demo if i was asked to setup a 2:1.

different strokes for different folks, but i still appreciate the techie stuff and the generosity with the knowledge.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
May 9, 2013 - 07:26am PT
Many thanks (again) for this thread. I've studied this info in other threads authored by the masters of hauling and frankly found it overwhelming.

Matty, you've put yourself out there, vulnerability-wise, by asking for help on what you are working out for yourself, and in this context of a beginner, I find I am able to learn more and be inspired to actually start working out my own system.

Prod, thanks again for explaining what is going on in the picture. It was not clear to me. I was confused which pulley was the traxion.

Briham89, thanks also for telling us which pulley is the micro traxion in the OP picture. Again, it was not clear to me, but I get it now.

Matty, thanks again for posting up with the entire improved system laid out on the garage floor (very helpful). As I stated earlier, it helps to see the entire set of gear in one shot as this leaves less to the imagination (and I have an active one).

Haul Lords: thanks for your infinite patience in sharing your wisdom in yet another thread. I think with this thread as my starting inspiration for actually working out my own system I can branch out as needed and search for other relevant info on this and other forums. I think for every Haul N00b like me, who is not afraid to post up here, there must be a few dozen others lurking who will also gain insight into the significance of small details that can either contribute to hauling success, misery or total failure.

Are we gonna die? Yep, it is a certainty, but the more important question here is, are we gonna cause someone else death or injury if we let a pig fly by accident or neglect or ignorance. Next to that would be causing others inconvenience because we are moving so slowly.

I'm so inspired to practice now and have the perfect Norway Maple in my back yard for the purpose. Thanks again EVERYONE!



matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 07:37am PT
Yeah Prod I won that book too, got it from Chongo back in 2001 when he was still the east side water commissioner and had his sh#t up on the sea. He was super nice I hung out for an afternoon and he showed me a bunch of tips and we talked the day away when he found out I recently got my degree in phsics and had taken graduate level quantum mechanics. He was working on his physics book at the time....seemed like a lot of loosely defined gibbrish to me lol... but was still a super fun guy to be around.


WRT to the jumar self lowering I think you would need to add weight for that and it would just be more to haul. If you check out Hudons video:



you will see he pulls the jumar down each time, which at that point is like a 2:1 in reverse and it not only resets the ratchet but also helps him stand up.

I think the problem with a jumar on the zed cord would be the extra weight and maybe it moves too easily. I think you want to get the length of the cord dialed and then keep it that way for the haul....??
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
May 9, 2013 - 07:51am PT
Pete. Why don't you use a load releasing hitch on the cord at your harness to haul?

I think you want to get the length of the cord dialed and then keep it that way for the haul....??

If you mean the length of cord between the jumar and your harness, you need to dial it if the circumstances of your haul change. i.e. The distance and angle between your anchor and stance, ledge, or lack thereof is going to be different. You don't want to be forced to haul from 6 inches above a stance or fall an annoying foot off the edge of wide ledge every time to pull back. Maybe I misunderstand?

Mark's close-together system reminds me of a way to make this rig kill time in a frustrating way: Send the bag jug too far down the line out of reach. doh. I wish I could say I haven't done that like five times. Another brain fart: Clip the inverted jug to the line and let go before it's tethered like you would if it wasn't inverted, and watch it slide all the way to your bag. Double doh. I've had to stop myself just short of doing that a bunch of times. Maybe I'm the only one who kills my daylight like this?
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
May 9, 2013 - 08:01am PT
Maybe he never thought of it. I bet they stretch a lot, there's so much play in in a munter/mule (the only LRH that I know) Have you tried this?
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
May 9, 2013 - 08:05am PT
Yes. It flips and cinches down and then stays put, in my experience, which is admitted less and not as demanding as Pete's haul systems. Getting the right length has been more important for my sense of efficiency than anything I noticed about the knot.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 9, 2013 - 08:15am PT
If you had a way set in your mind to tie the Munter/Mule, it would certainly work well enough.

That's the whole point of a lot of this stuff, a little trick here, a little trick there, saves time and saves energy THAT WORKS FOR YOU! There are tons of tricks out there and if you are the type of person who appreciates them and wants to climb a wall that way, then they are perfect.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
May 9, 2013 - 08:19am PT
if you are the type of person who appreciates them and wants to climb a wall that way, then they are perfect.

True that. The pleasure of doing something that works better than what you were doing before is a great tinkerers reward.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 9, 2013 - 08:42am PT
Keep it simple folks...


From Bergsteigen- Basic Rock Climbing, Robert Aleith, 1971
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 9, 2013 - 09:42am PT
That 2:1 up there ^ is interesting because it only uses the rope (no zed cord).

I'm unfortunately sitting in class so i can't go try that right now.

Something doesn't sit right with me about that setup, I can't put my finger on it though....

If you swapped out that right jumar for a hauling device this could be kinda cool.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
May 9, 2013 - 10:00am PT
I don't get the 2:1? It looks like you send half your pull to the wall instead of double to the bag? 0.5:1? Can someone splain me? It would be cool if I just don't get it. I dropped a pulley a couple years ago dooming us to 1:1 only. A 2 pulley system would be neat.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 9, 2013 - 10:07am PT
Melissa that was my thought as well. I don't get the 2:1 in that
John Butler

Social climber
SLC, Utah
May 9, 2013 - 10:07am PT
Something doesn't sit right with me about that setup, I can't put my finger on it though....

hmmmm...  I guess maybe it's just understood...
hmmmm... I guess maybe it's just understood...
Credit: John Butler
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 9, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Steve's example is far mor inefficient in that you have to drop the jug far down, haul till it comes up to you and drop it down again. It's far faster to do it via the Chongo method.

The whole point of 2:1 is to make it easier on you. I can haul a standard mordern big wall load simply by sitting down and exerting no effort. NO EFFORT. Yup 1:1 is faster and easier and if it's NO EFFORT for you then that is what you should do.

BITD, when I was climbing walls and hauling 1:1 was fully gruesome for me and was the hardest work on a wall. Hauling 2:1 has taken hauling off the table for me as far as wall work goes. Now, at 57 years old, I can climb walls and not kill myself, all my little tricks make climbing walls easier FOR ME. Every single little trick I have makes every wall I do a little bit easier.

Someone in Yosemite last year asked me how I can keep going and going and going on the walls at my age when he, far younger than me, was totally hammered after one wall. I told him that at every point I could I used tricks to make things easier for me. I haul good, nutritious food and plenty of it, lots of water, I have a warm comfortable sleeping bags, I have a pillow to ensure that I sleep well. Al of my clothes are top if the line as well as my gear. I also us my tricks to lift heavy things and never my brawn. I usually end up with people volunteering to carry my stuff up to the base is repayment for big wall tips I've helped them with over the summer and I'm willing and able to pay the going rate to get my stuff down from the top.

Lambone one always chimes in that you should just haul 1:1 and get it done so you can get on your ledge faster and drink beer or have a smoke but he's at least 15 years younger than me and I'll be interested to here the tune he sings when he is my age.
Pete always goes on about how you don't have to be in shape for walls but he also is 15 years younger than me. My tricks and my fitness are stacking the odds in my favor so that I'll be able to climb walls for may years to come.

BTW Steve's diagram is completely wrong. The method marked 2:1 is really only 1:1 (and hideously inefficient at that) and the one marked 4:1 is really 2:1.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 9, 2013 - 11:24am PT
That's what I thought. Thanks Mark
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 11:53am PT
It didn't sit nicely with me either at first but upon further examination the 4:1 seems to be a 3:1 with a direction change added on.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 9, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
Satisfy yourselves...



With a minor in mathematics and physics what do I know anyhow.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 9, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Aw, shucks - thanks guys. It's gratifying when even Dr. Hudon can pick up a new tip! Mark, I bet that's worth at *least* a pound of New Guinea Dark coffee to you, eh? [HINT]

By the way, your heartfelt thanks are always appreciated on this forum. Your heartfelt thanks on the El Cap Bridge, when accompanied by a six-pack of cold ones, are even more appreciated. {wink}

Matty: glad you're such a quick study! You have to be to operate this thing. And did I mention practising?? Yes, you want to use flat 9/16" webbing doubled on top of the pulley.

Crap - I just remembered one thing I forgot to mention - if you have a "good" pulley and a "not so good" pulley, you have to make sure you put your "good" pulley on top, and your "not so good" pulley on the bottom with the inverted ascender.

"Pete. Why don't you use a load releasing hitch on the cord at your harness to haul?"

Melissa - because it's too big and klunky, although not a bad idea. There's so much crap going on everywhere, you really need to streamline the thing as much as possible, and a load release knot would get in the way. Plus it's not hard to release the tightened clove hitch on pair of carabiners.

You *really* need to adjust the length of the zed-cord PERFECTLY, and you can't do this until you are actually on the wall, because it all depends on how everything is set up, and how it relates to everything else. For instance, are you standing in aiders, or are you standing on a ledge? A foothold can make life a lot better. You just have to figure it out when you're in position, and adjust the zed-cord then.

If Matty redoes his photo, he could show a couple biners clove hitched onto the zed-cord at about the right place.

Oh, I just read down - yes, load release knots really do stretch a lot as well, which would pretty much kill the efficiency of the system. Try the clove hitch on the doubled crabs!

Now - the hard part. For a guy who somehow graduated with a degree in engineering* I find these physics calculations on the hauling systems absolutely flummoxing!

I can tell you with certainty that the system in Steve's excellent diagram above marked as 4:1 is in fact 3:1. [Mark, you're guessing, and guessed wrong] I only know because I have used it every now and then when the haul line above my Junk Show manages to rub against the rock in such a way as I need the extra leverage. I only know it's 3:1 because I recognize the setup, not because I can explain the physics! At any rate, 3:1 hauling on the wall is normally overkill, and the situation described above is the only one in which I use it. 3:1 is a pain to use because you have to put your pulleys right through the haul line, instead of simply "adding it on" with your 2:1 hauling ratchet. Plus when you are hauling, you have to constantly "reset" the inverted ascender and pulley by sliding it back down the haul line.

Ask Kate - she used 3:1 hauling all the way up Mescalito when she soloed it because she didn't then know how to set up the Chongo 2:1 system.

The middle diagram in Steve's picture above sure looks good in theory. I think* - but am knott sure - it's actually 1:2?

Can one of you Rocket Scientist - Tech Weenie - Physics Geeks please explain to this poor engineer* what the mechanical [dis]advantage of drawing #2 is?

C'mon - we have guys on this forum who can calculate to the nearest hundredth of a degree where you can see Half Dome from in California on a clear day, and plot it out on a google earth map. Surely someone actually can tell us what's going on in drawing #2! Paging Ed Hartouni!

Yes, Ian - my grade 10 typing teacher called me the Fastest Typist in the West. This can be a particularly dangerous combination for me when beer, tequila and girls are all involved.

Cheers, eh?

* I graduated last in my engineering class both alphabetically and arithmetically, thus proving I did no more work than I absolutely had to.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Steve, your most recent photo shoes the 3:1 but not the 2:1. I also graduated with a BS in physics and don't see how the second system is 2:1.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 9, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
"I also graduated with a BS in physics and don't see how the second system is 2:1."

Everyone knows what BS is.

MS is More of the Same.

And Ph.D. is Piled Higher and Deeper.

Cheers,
Dr. Piton
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 9, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Crap - I just remembered one thing I forgot to mention - if you have a "good" pulley and a "not so good" pulley, you have to make sure you put your "good" pulley on top, and your "not so good" pulley on the bottom with the inverted ascender.

I need to get some new pulleys and came across a couple of these for a good deal. Blue water 2 inch pulley..

Credit: briham89

The only thing keeping me from buying it is, assuming this is the upper pulley, the biner with the hauling device will be in the v-notch lower section of that pulley, and I'm not sure if this is ideal / ok. What do you guys think? It is pretty similar to the upper part, but slighter smaller. Maybe I'm over thinking it, I just don't want to waste my money

Everyone knows what BS is.

MS is More of the Same.

And Ph.D. is Piled Higher and Deeper.

LOL
julton

climber
May 9, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Steve's example is far mor inefficient in that you have to drop the jug far down, haul till it comes up to you and drop it down again.

The jugs are both anchored in Steve's 2:1. The only thing that moves, besides the rope, is the pulley attached to the foot sling. The rope has the same tension throughout and the foot sling is connected to two strands, ergo it is a 2:1.

If his method works well it's very elegant in that you only need an extra pulley, which you might already take as a backup. Those 2:1 ratchets always seem like a cluster to clip to your harness.

The 4:1 does look like a redirected 3:1 though.

I have BA in physics. Is that any better?
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 9, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Am I the only one that thinks that simple MIGHT be better?
If you can't haul it, then you're too weak and as such, yer gonna die.
Apply as you see fit.

Methinks the haul lords bring too much crap.....
raymond phule

climber
May 9, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
I believe that the middle configuration is 1:2 because the load moves 2 m if move the foot sling 1 m. Not exactly the advantage that you wanted.
julton

climber
May 9, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
You're right Raymond, I have it ass-BAckwards. Two strands in this case means twice the load, not half.

How clever to rig a 1:2 hauling system. That would be much faster.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 9, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
How clever to rig a 1:2 hauling system. That would be much faster.

Only if your load is really light
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
I prefer to rig a 1:5 for light loads!
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 9, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Hahaha
micronut

Trad climber
May 9, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
When hauling big loads I like to make sure everything is balanced and packed evenly.

Is this a 2:2 or a 4:4?
Is this a 2:2 or a 4:4?
Credit: micronut
WTF

climber
May 9, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
This topic has been beat to crap here but I have done at least 25 walls, and never once did we use anything other than a wall hauler and the sh#t moved up just fine.

I see the need for more intricate systems for guys like Hudon 5 foot 7 and a 130 pounds of man child. He needs the mechanical advantage as his bags weight almost double his weight. So either go to a 3:1 or don't wall climb with so much crap.

Hudon how did you guys do it back in the day?

Bottom line is the more simple it is the less bullshit cluster f*#king you have.

For guys like me the pig is my bitch and if she can't be hauled then we have too much crap.

I have done walls in three man and four man and never used anything but two pigs and a wallhauler.

Now you all want to take everything up there. We used to take what we needed not what we wanted.



Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 9, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
5'1.875" and 120.

I'm weak, old and need comfort.

I NEED everything I haul up there!

WTF, we suffered hauling! I don't want to suffer anymore. Didn't you read my posts before posting yours? I stated my reasons for climbing the way I do.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 9, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
"How clever to rig a 1:2 hauling system. That would be much faster."

Big Wall Theory at its finest!

[At least the 1:1 bit is correct]

I think Mark must be shrinking. He is even smaller than I remember. Perhaps he is atrophying? ;)

WTF and Skully should go climb a wall together. They would be so happy being miserable.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
May 9, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Funny,

Seems like a 2 to one is the way to go...

Just because we where too stupid to do it in the old days, is no reason we can't do it now.

Belays are more bomber and more spread out, on the trade routes, so why not?

Who brings just what they need, how fun is that...





Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss on the end of a Wet Fist
May 9, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Why people haul so much sh!t these days anyways?

Somebody PLEASE post the photo of Mr Braun from Yosemite Climber with him and his gigantic goon rack. You know: "Early probe of the P.O.", or something like that
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
May 9, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
2:1 haul ratchet
2:1 haul ratchet
Credit: Moof

Here is my rig chugging away atop El Cap (name the route if you can). I originally had the mini-trax up one biner, sharing a spot on the big Williams locker with the end knot, but it fought with end knot and made things act funny/scary. Adding one biner for freedom made everybody happy, and hauling bags over the final lip was the easiest yet. In general hauling with a 2:1 is more like an aerobic activity instead of feeling like a weight lifting session using a 1:1. I'd rather be winded at the end of hauling than totally worked. After about a couple days I was able to switch with 2:1 leg hauling and was not even winded after hauling. My skinny partner had to stick to 2:1 body hauling the whole way.

On top I have 2 6" spectra slings to give freedom of movement, yet still be redundant on a high wear spot, other folks seem to have no issues using 8mm cord there, just make sure it never gets cut your your haul bag will funk you hard. I had no issues with using 5mm spectra for the cord, though our bags were not Canadian Assassin sized, merely just past annoying for 1:1. The top pully is a SMC Swiftwater pulley, and was nice and smooth, though one without the bolt heads sticking out so much would have been nice.

Here I am without a 2:1 on top of Mideast Crisis a few years ago, yucko.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 9, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
Pete, yes, I am shrinking. In my prime (whenever that was) I was 5' 2.5". I've lost a whole 5/8" in the last couple of years! I'm also the fittest I've ever been in my life right now and have lost 8 pounds. I'm down to about 9% body fat.

Coz, yeah, I know, it must be some badge of honor or mark of Manhood or something to take the bare minimum and then suffer hauling it via 1:1. I don't have that many El Cap routes left in me and on the last few, I'm sure I'll dispense with hauling even 2:1, and just pay someone to come up the route with me and do all the hauling!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 9, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
How much will you pay?



"I had no issues with using 5mm spectra for the cord"

Holy frig - look at the abrasion in the zed-cord!



That cord is about two pulls away from snapping! I'll tell you what - when those cords snap, it sure wakes you up.

I just bought one of those Petzl Prusik Minding Pulleys [91% efficient] to replace my old Petzl Fixe Pulley [only 71% efficient] on the inverted ascender. This should make hauling just a little easier.
WTF

climber
May 9, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Im not bagging on these systems Im just shocked on how they have evolved and allowed for huge amounts of gear to be moved upward efficiently.

Pretty soon all the belays will be set up to handle a 3:1 system of hauling with a low bolt and three upper bolts spread to allow the best hauling systems. Why not its progress.

Just from the days of take what you need not what you want. I suspect at my age now I would welcome a 3:1 as this old back hasnt laid into a load in over a decade.

Enjoy!
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 9, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
I just bought one of those Petzl Prusik Minding Pulleys [91% efficient] to replace my old Petzl Fixe Pulley [only 71% efficient] on the inverted ascender. This should make hauling just a little easier.

What are you using for your top pulley Pete?
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
May 9, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Holy frig - look at the abrasion in the zed-cord!

Get your eye's checked, a few fliers light up due to the flash. The cord is in fine shape.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 9, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
I have a PhD in physics but get this stuff wrong all the time...
rigging predates physics by a very long time, the ancient Egyptians were doing it...

but the middle example in Steve's Fig. 6-46 above is a 1:2 system as shown, so you all were right... the "4:1" is a "3:1"...

you can try to unfold these:


http://www.swe.org/iac/lp/pulley_03.html

a 2:1 system can't be built using the rope to the pig, the pulley that pulls the pig up would have to be on a separate line, e.g.:

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 10, 2013 - 12:06am PT
"Why people haul so much sh!t these days anyways?"

that's a 1:1 haul system
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 10, 2013 - 05:41am PT
See that? A real live rocket scientist! Saved by Ed - thanks, mate!

Could you please post that photo from Yosemite Climber that buddy above is referring to? "Early foray onto P.O. Wall" or something like that. Bridwell or Werner is dressed in hippie colours and is behind the block in that little cubbyhole at the Continental Shelf bivi.

I see I have made a number of product improvements since we Mike Clelland! and I drew up the 2:1 Hauling Ratchet diagram:



 I prefer 7mm perlon as the zed-cord. It will last twice as many walls as 6mm. 5.5mm Spectra will only last a quarter as long, and is several times more expensive, but works fine if you don't do many walls

 I use doubled 9/16" webbing which sits "flat" on the top pulley instead of "round" cord

 Use TWO carabiners on your belay donut so you can more easily release the zed-cord after use!

 The Pro-Trax shown in the diagram is a total piece of sh|t for 1:1 hauling and is emphatically knott recommended for hauling large loads. We only used it because at the time it was the most popular device, only because it was the most readily available. Get yourself a Kong Block-Roll if you are serious about hauling

 I still can't get rid of that crab in my system! Although Klaus did take him on an extended vacation to places like Muscle Beach for five walls seasons. Unfortunately he did not come back any stronger, and is not much use for hauling. He is, however, the most patient belayer I have ever climbed with.

Briham89 - I use the pulley marked #9 in this photo as my upper pulley. It's a sweet multi ball-bearing jobbie from SMC:



I should also mention that there is an excellent 2:1 hauling post over at Mountain Project with great photos that you really have to see [if only to see the girl in the Olde English T-shirt]:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/21-haul-setup---rate-my-rigging/107577488__1

Cheers, eh?

I've got some movies from El Cap on how to operate the 2:1 that I will post up later on Youtube when I have some time. Can someone please explain to me precisely what I need to do to embed the video right here in the McTopo forum, so you don't have to click on a link? The way Matty embedded Mark's video on the front page?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 10, 2013 - 09:14am PT
geeze... I don't even get paid for this...

videos... man...

when you are viewing a YouTube video, the URL shows up something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ew8FqN79Q

to embed this in STForum, you click the "Video" button above the edit box and put in the "YouTube Video ID:" box o5ew8FqN79Q
make sure you get all of the characters

the YouTube video id follows the "v=" tag in the URL, sometimes it's confusing because there can be a lot of other stuff too, if you can't figure it out, just post the whole URL here and someone can tell you what to do...

or you could just put the tag:

[ youtube=o5ew8FqN79Q] {excluding the space between the opening "[" and "youtube"}

this is explained on the pop-up page you get clicking the "Video" button too
RtFM!

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 11, 2013 - 09:32am PT
Ed- Are you saying that the middle figure in the hauling systems that I posted is less efficient at 1:2 than a straight single pulley system at 1:1?

Nice to keep the nomenclature straight.
Onewhowalksonrocks

Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
May 11, 2013 - 10:18am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#302616

Secret boobs spammed this topic
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 11, 2013 - 10:50am PT
There is always room for titties in a technical climbing post, but could you please post up some A's or barely B's? What is this fascination with BIG hooters? I don't get it.

"Ed- Are you saying that the middle figure in the hauling systems that I posted is less efficient at 1:2 than a straight single pulley system at 1:1?"

I about pissed myself with laughter when I read what Grossman wrote above!!

Bloody 'ell, Steve - how STUPID are you????

ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
May 11, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
In the above diagram:

Get rid of the "Frost Draw" and clip the ratchet in to the bottom hole, where it says biner required. Simple and easy to go back and forth between both systems.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Thanks for the tip Ammon, neat trick. The only downside I see is a bit more of the zed cord in the system but it does seem streamlined.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 11, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
^^ You're both right.

The whole idea is to minimize the amount of "stuff that stretches" in the system.

You don't necessarily need a Frost Draw. You could use carabiners or even Spectra webbing tripled or whatever. You just have to play around with it, and figure out the configuration that works best for you. Once you understand it, you can fine tune it. Orientations and lengths are critical - the pulleys all have to mesh with virtually zero haul line between the teeth of the inverted ascender and the holding device, which in this drawing is the Pro-Trax.



What's funny and what I just noticed in the drawing above is that Mike! might have taken some artistic license with the Frost draw. Note how the ends are rotated 90 degrees from each other. I don't think Tom made them that way!

In fact, I'm sure the ends of the Frost Draw are knott like that. Mike! has cleverly drawn the system in sort of a "flat plane" - in reality, the zed-cord aligns more or less straight into the wall in front of you, while the free end of the haul line coming out of the Pro-Trax goes ninety degrees right and parallel to the wall. Clever drawing. Mike! can draw anything - he's just amazing that way. He got this sketch perfect in only a couple emails back and forth, too.

Plus the drawing is the way I operate it, as I'm left handed. If you're a "righty" you will need to adjust it accordingly, which is sort of a mirror image, but sort of not. Which is why you need to practise!

Ammon is probably the only guy on the forum - and maybe anywhere! - who has used the Chongo ratchet extensively before me. Ammon's first big wall ever was a solo of the NA Wall on El Cap. He showed up in Yosemite, Chongo showed him how to make the ratchet, and then Ammon sent.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 11, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
I do a somewhat simpler version by which I can still easily haul 150% of my body weight.

The inverted Gibbs (in my case) is on a sling to allow the Gibbs to slide down about two to three feet below me on the rope heading down to the bag. The regular ascender is attached to the "pull" side of the rope as in a traditional set up.

I reach down with one hand, grab the Gibbs sling, thrust down with my body weigh, and pull up on the Gibbs sling.

By pulling up on the Gibbs sling, I'm effectively adding weight to myself, which increases the pull on the pull-side of the pulley. At the same time, I'm pulling up directly on the bag via the Gibbs. So, I'm adding pull to the traditional system both directly and indirectly.

You might think this would get really tiring, particularly for the Gibbs arm, but surprisingly it really doesn't. And this setup doesn't have any more complication than a traditional setup (except for adding an inverted Gibbs to the mix).

Unlike a 2-to-1 setup, you're not thrusting 1 foot to gain 6 inches. You "get it all" with the simplified setup, but you also radically increase your effective pulling power at little increase of overall effort. Thrust down a foot, and the bag comes up a foot.

Many of you, I'm sure, have done something much like this when hauling over any edge, as you just grab the down-rope with one hand and pull up to help get a body-weight thrust started. On the setup I'm describing, you simply "go straight at" that intuition and make it as efficient as possible.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
May 12, 2013 - 10:26am PT
I never use a foot to haul, if the haul is light enough for a leg to haul then it's light enough for both hands to pull 1:1.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 12, 2013 - 11:04am PT
RE: middle figure in Steve's post Fig. 6-46

well, like I said, I get this stuff wrong all the time, funny... actually rgold does a better job.

one way to look at it is by the tensions in each of the lines, there are three in lines, one to the pig ("the load") which is directed over the first pulley...

the second line goes to the the second pulley,
and the third line to the attachment point...

so let's look at the "static" forces...

if nothing is moving ("static"), the tensions in these three lines is equal. The tension in the first line is the weight of the pig.

the force that the first pulley exerts on the attachment is twice the weight of the pig.
the force on the jumar attaching the end of the line is the weight of the pig...

interestingly, the force exerted on the second pulley is twice the weight of the pig, so yes, in this analysis you have to put more force to lift the pig then the weight of the pig...

But there is a bright side to this... for every meter you push down the 2nd pulley, 2 meters of rope have to be drawn in (there are two lines "connected" to that pulley), so the pig gains 2 times the extension of the 2nd pulley.

For small loads, e.g. < body weight, this system would be faster than the one-to-one pull, at least in principle.



FULL DISCLOSURE CLAUSE: I've only ever hauled stuff up hand-over-hand, or with a 1-to-1 ratchet... and never had to resort to any of these rigging shenanigans... my loss which I hope to amend someday (soon). Consider me, for the purposes of these discussions, to be a "theoretical big wall hauler"
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 12, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Ed- I have never found the need to use anything more than a single pulley system while counterbalance-hauling with a third Jumar to gut haul on anything that I have done on El Cap.

Keeping the weight down always did the trick. That folks insist on tackling FA sized loads on every vertical battle of attrition is pretty mind boggling.

I didn't post the hauling diagrams from Aleith's book because I champion his methods. I simply see a lot of twisting, cinching and stretching in the systems shown starting from the powerpoint on down. I agree with Werner that using double pulleys and a mini block and tackle might be a cleaner system if weight and speed aren't a concern.

With a Protrax or something sturdy as the principal catch point it would be interesting to see how light you could get a triple pulley set up from a yachting supply if you dropped the cord diameter.

The load table that Aleith provides is interesting in that he provides some empirical data using both carabiners and pulleys. He was a technical illustrator at a large engineering firm and heavily involved with Search and Rescue around Phoenix. I will post more of his manual at some point on a dedicated thread.

Pete proudly bellowing STUPID from the bottom of the academic barrel is rich indeed.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 12, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Totally agree, Ammon. Leg-hauling is useless.

Hey, how's the leg? I hope you're doing well and not suffering lingering effects.
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
I was wondering if a 2/1 could be rigged without using an auxiliary cord--by using the haul line itself. Its easy of course to rig a 1/1 and the 3/1 is pretty obvious as well. A 3/1 one is a lot action for very little traction and a 1/1 can be a ton. Of course the middle drawing a few posts back was a 1/2 boo boo. Here is what I came up with: I realized in the 3/1 if the middle pulley was replaced by a knot it became a 2/1. Photos and a drawing to come on the next post as this computer won't let me download pictures!
Chappy
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 12, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
I was wondering if a 2/1 could be rigged without using an auxiliary cord--by using the haul line itself.

I think not... here are some images from http://www.swe.org/iac/lp/pulley_03.html


1:1 with pulley (the other 1:1 doesn't have a pulley, it is just pulling the load up by the rope)


2:1:


3:1


4:1


what you notice is that for an "even" advantage system, 2:1, 4:1, etc... the pulley attached to the weight is "free," where as in an "odd" advantage system 1:1, 3:1, etc.. thy pulley is attached to the same rope... or to the anchor point...

if that second pulley is "free", there is no way to implement the rigging with the single rope connecting the load.
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Finally! Here is a crude drawing of the system. The haul loop may need...
Finally! Here is a crude drawing of the system. The haul loop may need a little assistance to help it feed until the loop was of sufficient weight. I am also making the assumption one would have a little length of haul line to work with at the end of the
Credit: chappy
Step one set up a 1/1 with a wall hauler or traxion from the becket of...
Step one set up a 1/1 with a wall hauler or traxion from the becket of the pulley and pull all slack (you can float the bag if you can/wish)
Credit: chappy
Make a knot in the haul line approximately twice the distance in you w...
Make a knot in the haul line approximately twice the distance in you want to pull (6 ft?)
Credit: chappy
Attach knot next to wall hauler
Attach knot next to wall hauler
Credit: chappy
Pass tail through jumar pulley and then up through the upper pulley. C...
Pass tail through jumar pulley and then up through the upper pulley. Clip inverted jumar/pulley on haul line and tie a knot in the tail and attach to your harness and start hauling!
Credit: chappy
It should look like this. The upper right hand line will have the harn...
It should look like this. The upper right hand line will have the harness attachment knot. The haul loop is formed by the bottom two lines.
Credit: chappy
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Ed,
What I designed (in a sense)is the 2/1 in image number three of your post. It is in fact a 2/1. 1/2 the load is carried by the knot anchored to the wall hauler biner and the other 1/2 load is attached to your harness. One thing I realized a long time ago is that in an odd system (1/1 3/1 etc.) the line is always dead tied to your load. In an even system (2/1 4/1 etc.)the dead tie is at your pick point or anchor and only pulleys are attached to your load (as in the case of this system)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 12, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
I agree that your system is a 2:1 chappy...

the length of rope from the harness to the knot is a piece of the rope for sure... is plays the role of the "z-cord" in the other example from PTPP above...

it's the erroneously labeled "4:1" in the post that Steve made above:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2132804&msg=2134040#msg2134040
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 12, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Ha! Good work, Mark!

I carry my "hauling kit" all set up in a medium Fish Beef bag and be set up and ready to haul in seconds.

Simply understanding how to set up a mechanical advantage on the fly, using what ever gear is available is a great trick for climbers to have.
chappy

Social climber
ventura
May 12, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Mark,
It's fun to play around with variations of parted systems. It's probably easier to use your kit but it's nice to play around with variations. It was a fun little puzzle. When one understands the basics you can always design something that works with what is available. I get to play with puzzles like this a lot with my rigging work.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 12, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
That's what I figured.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 13, 2013 - 10:59am PT
Keeping the weight down always did the trick. That folks insist on tackling FA sized loads on every vertical battle of attrition is pretty mind boggling.

You guys continue to not to get the point. Its some sort of ego thing I guess. It's not so much the ability to haul more, as it is to haul it with less effort. Do you really think that everyone who chooses to haul via 2:1 is taking monster loads? Really? Don't you think that some of those people are taking the average, everyday loads that most climbers would take?

On my Zenyatta Mondatta solo for example, I found that hauling via 2:1 was very easy but when I tried to haul 1:1 it took simply more effort that I cared to give it.

I simply did not want to work that hard!

Get it?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 13, 2013 - 11:15am PT
As a side note, I wish I had a photo of this, I was hiking back to the road after humping a load to the base of El Cap and was walking behind a woman who had blisters larger than half dollars on each hip! The skin had broken off and everything. I'll bet she would have appreciate some 2:1 hauling information!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 13, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
I simply did not want to work that hard!

Get it?


ah, ya, but like, you're climbing a wall...that work is supposed to be hard.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 13, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
You mean I'm doing wrong? It's supposed to be hard? You mean I can't use all these little tricks I've developed to make things easier?

Dang!
julton

climber
May 13, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Would one imagine Sisyphus even happier with a 2:1 ratchet?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 13, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Sisyphus shoulda waited for SuperTopo and the reinvention of the wheel.

I can see yous guys standing around the base of the Great Pyramid arguing
with the construction foreman.

"Ho, man! Yer doin' it all wrong!"
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 13, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Matty.... you have some fun, OK.

C-ya when you return.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
May 13, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
I second Mark on the whole not wanting to work hard.

Most of my previous walls were with very similar loads, most done with 1:1 hauling. Zodiac last week was the first time I didn't feel destroyed after each haul. Just slightly worked. For the top third of the route I was able to clip the Zee cord to my russian aider cuff and 2:1 leg haul. Especially at hanging belays I found the 2:1 leg haul to be a huge improvement, saving the arms and body for leading. Thankfully we were slow slugs, so I could almost always haul and dock the pig by time my partner got to the belay,

At the top I was able to just lean away from the haul tree to haul, it was great, getting 18" strokes out of a 3' lean. Then the bags got stuck. I switched to 1:1 hauling to try to bounce the bags over the lip, and boy was that miserable. So I went back to 2:1 and tried bouncing the bags again, and it was night and day better, and soon the bags were free and up over the summit with record low effort.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 13, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
MOOF!!!!! Do you realize that you're giving up Manliness Points by posting that!

We're talking Manliness Points, Moof, do you want to take a moment and think about it?
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
May 13, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
Being a full haz-bin climber unable to do much more than muster one aid farce a year, I am already pretty well out of man points...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 13, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Man points! ROFL

Good on ya for bringing perspective, Mark.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
May 15, 2013 - 10:18am PT

Fred Kida 1979 from an ebay listing.

Why settle for less? LOL
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
May 15, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Seriously been working on this last weekend but took no pictures. All I can say is that I've learned a ton and will continue to practice.

At first, when I read and responded to the OP, I was thinking in terms of something Weld-It-like, pictured below:

Credit: SCREENSHOT


Those rigging plates are nice, but the system doesn't need all that and we don't need to carry the weight.


So, I followed the instructions up thread and set up the 2:1 system. I spent a great deal of time trying out various lengths of loops for the pulleys and only then started to see what the HL's were talking about with respect to minimizing stuff that can stretch, but still allowing for that important freedom of movement. In the maple tree in our backyard I tried the haul setup low to the ground, and then up about 20 feet so that I could practice making the adjustment on the pull cord and trying the sit down ratchet.

I'll set it up again in the next few days and take some photos.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
May 17, 2013 - 05:38am PT
This is the ground training area.
Credit: Bill Mc Kirgan


I also tried from the top of the ladder to give me some practice on setup with something to stand on vs hanging in harness. As mentioned up-thread, stance makes a difference, and adjusting the orange (zed) cord with clove hitch to 2 carabiners a nice trick for being able to break the knot if it gets too tight.

Credit: Bill Mc Kirgan

Credit: Bill Mc Kirgan

Again, I had the wrong idea at the beginning of this tread and learned a lot from this review of information that is in many different threads here on ST and elsewhere like mountainproject.com .

So, I hope my 2:1 haul rig rates okay. It has some problems: fixe pulley at top of 2:1 is too small (should replace with something like the rescue pulley), and the mini traxion at the bottom of the 2:1 is not used for rope capture and should be replaced with a non-capture pulley (like the fixe).
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 17, 2013 - 06:54am PT
Yup, you're getting it. Replace those pulleys with ones with bigger sheaves, practice a bit and you'll be set.
julton

climber
May 17, 2013 - 07:36am PT
It sounds like you are body hauling on the Zed line via the clove hitch to 2 biners? Why not use your other Jumar?

I think the problem with a jumar on the zed cord would be the extra weight and maybe it moves too easily.

I don't understand this response. A jumar won't slip and isn't heavy enough to matter in the haul. So why not use a jumar to adjust the length of the Zed line? That's what I've always done when hauling 1:1.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 17, 2013 - 07:57am PT
The adjustment on the Zed cord is not dynamic, meaning once you have the Zed cord set to the correct length for that current situation, it stays that length for the entire hauling session.
You might get in a situation where your waist comes right up to the top pulley, a situation where the length of a biner and an ascender would be in the way.

In reality, two people of the same approximate size, on a typical hanging anchor, will probably just grab the biners where they were left on the Zed cord from the last haul and use that length. Max and I always leave a biner on the Zed cord and typically, finding the perfect pull length, takes only a minute or two.

Watching that vid of me hauling a bit up thread may clear up your question.
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2013 - 08:07am PT
What a mess.

It can be simplified with one double sheave pulley on top.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 17, 2013 - 08:11am PT
Credit: Mark Hudon

3:1 using only the rope.

Credit: Mark Hudon

3:1 Chongo Method

Credit: Mark Hudon

My current haul kit.

You all should just cut right to the chase, and set it up exactly as I have it here. I've hauled hundreds of pitches with it and it's as good a set up as it gets.

BTW, my Zed cord is some Spectra/Kevlar 5 mil that I bought at the Mountain Shop a few years ago. I've used it on five walls since then and it looks brand new.
rockgymnast

Trad climber
Virginia
May 17, 2013 - 08:18am PT
Has anyone every experimented with or used an "inverted piggy back" pulley system (it is a variation of the Spanish Burton pulley system)?

I came across this pulley system in the Ontario Rock Climbing Association Safety Manual. It has a theoretical 3:1 mechanical advantage, using the same number of pulleys as the shown 2:1 system.

I have attached a crude diagram.

Is it a viable system or is it overly complicated?
Credit: rockgymnast
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
May 17, 2013 - 10:34am PT
Y'all should learn the T-Method of rating pulley systems, it works pretty well and can be learned pretty fast.
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
May 17, 2013 - 11:23am PT
So why don't people use the double sheave system like Werner suggests?

Thanks for the photos Mark!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
May 17, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
With a double sheave pulley as your top pulley you would have the Zed cord running through it and also the haul line, down to maybe an inverted ascender.

It's not a bad idea but it increases the size and weight of the system you have to carry needlessly. You would be taking a larger pulley to give you good efficiency for your Zed cord but it would be far more than you need for the haul line. I personally don't lead with my ascenders so there is that I'd have to carry also. One ascender is far heavier than one Micro Trax.

Rockgymnast, overly complicated. 3:1 hauling is needed in only the most dire situations.

Franky, I'd like to hear about that.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 17, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
"You all should just cut right to the chase, and set it up exactly as I have it here. I've hauled hundreds of pitches with it and it's as good a set up as it gets."

Concur.

Bill - from the looks of your photo it appears as though you could replace your turquoise sling with a carabiner, like Mark has done in his photo. [He doesn't have it assembled in his photo, but you can see the components]

There is no twist in your turquoise sling - which I assume to be non-stretch Spectra which will still stretch a bit on you on you - and it looks like everything will still fit together nicely if it's replaced with a crab.

"BTW, my Zed cord is some Spectra/Kevlar 5 mil that I bought at the Mountain Shop a few years ago. I've used it on five walls since then and it looks brand new."

Beware - the stuff can snap on your with little warning! However if you get a nice long hunk, you can trim the end that gets worked the most, and still have enough zed-cord left over to be able to pass knots joining haul lines.

Five walls, eh? Must be "all that work" your 120-lb 9% fat skinny-ass body can generate. Now if you were a Real Man* your Spectra zed-cord would never last that many walls.


































*As in, "rather more lard-assly" ...
El Bucanero

climber
May 17, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
With a double sheave pulley as your top pulley you would have the Zed cord running through it and also the haul line, down to maybe an inverted ascender.

It's not a bad idea but it increases the size and weight of the system you have to carry needlessly. You would be taking a larger pulley to give you good efficiency for your Zed cord but it would be far more than you need for the haul line. I personally don't lead with my ascenders so there is that I'd have to carry also. One ascender is far heavier than one Micro Trax.

Rockgymnast, overly complicated. 3:1 hauling is needed in only the most dire situations.

Franky, I'd like to hear about that.

Just an idea for a slick set-up:

A Rock Exotica Omni-Block 1.5" Double
[url=" http://www.rockexotica.com/products/pulleys/images/P51D2_med.jpg"] http://www.rockexotica.com/products/pulleys/images/P51D2_med.jpg[/url]

<img src="http://www.rockexotica.com/products/pulleys/images/P51D2_med.jpg">

with an inverted petzl basic bolted to the lower attachment point. One sheave and the basic act as the holding ratchet.

A bolt will keep it lined up nicely and closer to the pulley. (obviously a nice 8.8 bolt and washers). The omni has a built in swivel which means no cord link. And the side plates can be opened without taking it off the biner!

m_jones

Trad climber
Carson City, NV
May 24, 2013 - 07:44am PT
Regarding Marks setup of the Chongo hauling system: (which is awesome!)

Why 9/16" flat instead of cord to attach the top pulley?
Is either stronger as if that link fails, the haul bags fall. (best to make sure it is not hanging on by a thread after your 20th wall!!). A carabiner at that spot does not allign well. A swivel hangs everything a bit low. A draw as a back up works pretty good but adds to the stuff in the way.


Marks (chongo) system pre set up in a bag is so fast to implement. On both South Seas and Lost in America I would time his set up time after his leads. From when he yelled "off belay/you can jumar" it was about a minute (yes one minute) and the haul line came tight and he started hauling so I could clear the belay and get cleaning. After only a few leads I was able to get hauling just about as fast. Easy on the brain too as it is already set up.
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2013 - 08:01am PT
Thanks for the input all.

I got a chance to try the ratchet on the prow last week. We fixed the first 3 pitches and then did a long haul. The 2:1 was nice for those slabby first few pitches even though I could haul 1:1, the 2:1 was much less of an effort and left me with more energy for the next pitch. I hauled one more pitch 2:1 just for practice then went 1:1 the rest of the way.

I used a large wired nut in place of the green sling here:


Credit: matty


Now I can see how having lengths totally dialed and minimizing the amount of stretchy stuff in the system can really increase efficiency. If I was going to be hauling an entire pitch 2:1 I would use a setup like Marks with the micro trax mounted on a biner through the upper ratchet pulley. It was also nice to know you can always add the ratchet onto a 1:1 that gets too hard. The 2:1 ratchet definitely made passing a knott a breeze!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 24, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Matty... good job on the prow, and thanks for bringin Yafer back alive!

He is still sort of floating on the clouds....



briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
May 24, 2013 - 08:29am PT
Sweet nice send and haul man!!
matty

Trad climber
under the sea
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2013 - 09:10am PT
I'll work on a TR soon...I want to go back and do it IAD...
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
May 24, 2013 - 09:58am PT
Mark- I think you are describing the effort part wrong. It's not about "not working hard" but about working smarter, not harder. By conserving energy on the hauls, you have more to exert on the wall. I think you realize which is more important, so just let all these traditionalist haulers continue to break their backs. They clearly don't and won't get it..
MattF

Trad climber
Bend, Or
Aug 3, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
Ok, I'm gearing up to do my first solo wall in late sept, and I was thinking that I'm going to be working hard enough doing all the leading and cleaning - might as well make hauling easier. So here's my 2:1 ratchet that I threw together just with what I already had and tested out in my house. I would love some feedback on it from the Haul (Over)Lords. Plus since I took video of mine, it might help other people 'get' it better.

Can't embed the videos, but here's the links. Let me know what you guys think:

1) Overview of the setup: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByS7rIJKEVqmUnk4bVN0Y3RXZE0/edit?usp=sharing

2) Demo hauling 140lb up a few feet: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByS7rIJKEVqmTWtqSnEzVGtjNE0/edit?usp=sharing

3) Beer! https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByS7rIJKEVqma1AwVnRDU2VaRXM/edit?usp=sharing

-------


Thoughts I had after re-watching the videos I just posted:

1) I said I could just barely get the load moving on the protrax at 1:1. What I really meant was that without using my feet to push off anything I could barely get it moving. On a wall where I had something to push against I could definitely 1:1 haul this. I'm 175, so 140 should be haul-able at 1:1.

2) here's the link to the permadraw I'm thinking of getting. Looks good, but maybe a bit longer than I really want... http://www.climbtechgear.com/cable-dogbone/
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 3, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Matt,
You pretty much have it. Don't worry about the ascender and pulley grinding against the Pro-Trax. In actual use, they will be far below. There is no advantage to them actually coming together like you show in your vid.

Also, that top biner is part of your hauling kit. You have a bag to hold the whole deal, don't you? That biner is what holds the whole kit together, in the bag, and then when you get to the anchor, clips it all to your hauling point.

Credit: Mark Hudon

See the purple bag behind the haul setup? The haul kit is never taken apart, it always stays on that biner, and is either being used or in that bag.

An important note here:

When you push down on the ascender, make sure you push down so that your Zed Cord runs through your system and is TIGHT to your belay loop. Remember, 2 to 1 mechanical advantage doubles both the advantages and the disadvantages. One inch of slack in the system will result in two inches of lost advantage.



Watch this vid. Watch how I move the lower rope grab down as I stand up.

Other than that, you're looking good.

Ultimately, simply go out and buy the gear to set it up exactly as I have it in a photo up thread. You will never improve on my set up enough to make it worth dicking around with other pulleys and rope grabs. I've hauled 9 walls worth of gear with it now. Max Jones loves it and Cheyne Lempe thinks it's sweet.
MattF

Trad climber
Bend, Or
Aug 3, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Cool. Thanks Mark - I really appreciate all the feedback/advice you give out here and on your website.

So the pulleys coming together as the ratchets come together is not important? I read one of PTPP's posts somewhere that they should. Just thinking, the only reason I can think of why it would be beneficial is that is makes sure there is minimum amount of stretchy components in the system.

Also, thinking more, I realized that I probably need better pulleys like you have in your setup. I'm looking at picking up probably the Petzl Partner. I can't tell from your pic, is that what you use for your top pulley? http://www.amazon.com/Petzl-P52A-Partner-Pulley/dp/B0035PQ8O4

The CMI original has real good efficiency so its tempting, but looking at it, I don't think I would be able to do the pulley spanning biner if I did it that way since the sheath on the CMI isn't shaped right for that. Maybe use one for the bottom pulley on the ascender? http://www.cmi-gear.com/catalog/pulleys/original2.asp
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 3, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
Thanks.

Pete probably does emphasize that to have the minimum cord stretch but that's really splitting hairs. I wouldn't worry about it especially if you are using 7 mil as your Zed cord.

Yes, better pulleys. I spent a total of $100 on mine. Both are SMC pulleys. The top one has a 2" sheave and the other is 1.5". It's money very well spent, believe me.

Both of my pulleys are on this page. SMC Rescue Pulleys The 2" Single PMP and the Micro Single PMP.

Use that CMI pulley as your top pulley, it dictates the advantage more than the lower one.

BTW, I'll be in the Valley from Sept. 25th to Oct 18th. I'm giving a presentation at the Facelift on the 25th. I'd be happy to talk further about any of your soloing needs.
MattF

Trad climber
Bend, Or
Aug 4, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Gotcha on the splitting hairs. I won't worry about it too much. Much bigger efficiency gains to be made in getting better pulleys I think. Plus if the upside-down ratchet ascender was a little lower, then I wouldn't have to reach so high to reset it as I'm standing up, which would help make that a bit less awkward.

The CMI original looks like a good pulley and is a bit cheaper, but the problem is that I couldn't do the pulley spanning biner with it.

I think I'll get a petzl partner for the top pulley. Its 91% efficient, whereas the CMI original is 93.3%, so they're pretty close. Then I can get a CMI original for the bottom pulley.

Oh, and I think I'm going to get a FISH beef bag to hold the haul kit. While I'm at it, I'm going to pick up a couple of the large beef bags which I was thinking of using as the solo-tag-rack bag and associated rope bag to hold the remainder of the lead rope in the continuous loop system. Do you think those large beef bags would be good for that? Big enough? Tough enough to be tagged up the pitch periodically?

Finally, I'm planning on being in the valley from sept 17 through early Oct. I'm planning on being up on the stone during your slideshow, but hopefully I can meet you at the bridge and buy you a cobra!

Thanks again for the advice! Also cool that you're just up the road from me... :-)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 4, 2013 - 09:21am PT
The Beef bags are great but I think they will wear holes dragging on rock with gear inside. One of the Metolius haul packs would be a better choice but now you're getting into a bigger and heavier bag.
I think on my next solo that I'm not going to tag anything more than the haul kit and haul line. In all of my solos I've only needed to tag for gear maybe once.
MattF

Trad climber
Bend, Or
Aug 4, 2013 - 09:29am PT
Gotcha. I'm planning on soloing Muir Wall, so I won't need much of a pin rack (good thing too, but I don't really know what I'm doing with those funny metal spikey things just yet!), and I was kinda wondering about how useful it would be to have the extra tag bag if most of the pitches aren't going to be these monster many hour ordeals.

A couple points of clarification - you're still going to use the continuous loop system the same way, just without a tag-bag?

Also, you have your haul kit in a (small? medium?) beef bag. Are you going to keep it in that when you tag? I suppose you're still going to have to have the rope-bag and haul kit on a fifi with a slippery knot so when you tag it up you can re-hang it, right?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 4, 2013 - 09:43am PT
A couple points of clarification - you're still going to use the continuous loop system the same way, just without a tag-bag?

Also, you have your haul kit in a (small? medium?) beef bag. Are you going to keep it in that when you tag? I suppose you're still going to have to have the rope-bag and haul kit on a fifi with a slippery knot so when you tag it up you can re-hang it, right?

Yes, continuous loop but without the actually tag bag. I'll still tag up the haul kit, (in its medium Beef Bag), along with a rope bag, hung from the Petzl Fifi and made safe via the slippery knot.

Have fun on the Muir, it's on my schedule for the fall of 2014.
thekidcormier

Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
Feb 27, 2014 - 01:11am PT
Bump for big mike.

Rumor has it he was spotted hauling kit in the little smoke bluffs this week.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 28, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
Well sir, that rumor is true thanks to your loan of equipment! Thanks matty for starting this thread and Pete and Marc for their contributions!!

Kagaroo corner haul
Joshua Johnson.

Boulder climber
Boulder
Feb 28, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
Big Wall = Complicated.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Feb 28, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
Big Mike.... good to see your on the mend.

Broken Back stories don't always have a happy ending.

TR?????
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