What Is Trad ?????????

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Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:53am PT
Mark,

providing you do not claim too much turf here, there might be a framework of a better resolution between sport and trad.

Our turf is overhanging bolted face climbs supplemented by a few less steep bolted face climbs for warm-ups. And so by this claim we have for the most part territory that is unwanted/unused by trads.

Why do problems arise? Some of those with drills bolt cracks and old runout trad face climbs. Generally they are not members of the overhanging face climb seekers. Why? I suspect these trespassers cannot climb that hard and trying to find turf for more lower angle climbs. I would say these are the folks all of us could offer some lip service to as to where their activities have the proper turf.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:59am PT
Mark,

We could all do well by bringing the post back to its' original track and leave the other discussion for another post.


are you naive? To me some of trad is about what this very discussion has been hovering on recently, what is wrong with sport and how we violated your mother earth ideas of the world. I think the title of this post begs too for some of answering of that question.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:01am PT
I'm no plant ecologist, but i'm an observer of nature, and looking around at all the grassy and munge filled crack systems in Yosemite, I can't stretch my imagination to the point where it makes sense that cleaning a select one could have any environmental impact beyond the immediate crack being cleaned.

I accept that some may think that's bad enough, and that even what might be a classic climb doesn't justify it, but it seems to be an extremist perspective, and hard to understand if the person's a climber.

Visually even, 99.99% of people wouldn't notice if you didn't point it out to them in most cases, especially after a year of weathering.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:14am PT
Warbler,

I too have made your observation and judgement that few will notice what happens to single crack in the bigger picture. But the rumbling in my mind come from the disturbances my memory brings from 43 yrs on Devils Tower I do see a great loss of crack vegetation. Let's take Gooseberry Jam it is now devoid of plant life and the crack soil frame work. Hardly anyone climbs that size anymore and it has only a skeleton appearance when compared to the days before Kamps initiated the actions leading to its destruction. At least for me this is a felt loss and you may not have such feelings about what you see.

But at least for Assembly Line the skeleton crack sees plenty of use.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:39am PT
It's an emotional issue and everybody's entitled to their emotions, as long as they accept it as such. The problem is when emotion overcomes logic and emotional people try to impose their feelings on those who don't share the emotion.

I get emotional when I see a perfectly clean climb that once had loose blocks and vegetation making it impossible to climb...
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Dingus...Agree with much of what your saying (although the combative tone makes it hard sometimes to want to engage). It seems like this is more an issue of gear and technology as they pertain to climbing and the environment and less about issues of style. And although this thread is about a style of climbing, I like where it is going and maybe we can get beyond the style wars and come up with a more universal way of looking at climbing's impacts in general? Because it seems like there's a chance here to go that route unlike so many threads. And I hope Ed keeps babbling because need the ying to the yang so to speak.

Some hardcore enviro's eschew keeping man out of certain areas to maintain bio-diversity (a position I used to approve of until I realized that only the biologists were allowed in and that man IS essentially a part of nature like any other animal.

John Gill ended up climbing in an interesting fashion and coined a phrase I'm sure some one can help me with. Something like onsite optional soloing at whatever level one felt comfortable with. Covering new ground and simply taking off. And although I don't remember an environmental angle attached, it seemed like a more eco friendly way to go as seems the case with soloing in general except your not climbing the same trail and are spreading out the degradation, if you can call mans simple rite to ramble and roam any more impactful then any other critter's. But most of us climb with gear and in many different ways. At least Higgins makes an attempt to find democratic solutions through reasonable discourse which we seem to be rehashing here to get there.

Edit: And at least the word "trad" has brought us to a hopefully meaningful conversation because it was spawned during a time of hopeful environmentalism.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 19, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
What wstmrnclmr said!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
wstmrnclmr,

very much agree.

I think by accosting these unrestrained drillers, which we could call rogue drillers, with some effort to try to alter their ways might cool the steam. But as I see it they too must get some kind of turf that gives them less steep sport climbs. I presume this is what they are seeking when they modify existing bolt lines which are in an area where retrobolting is only permitted by the initial route setters wishes.

But also I am not suggesting they can bolt continuous good gear cracks in an area where gear predominates.
susu

Trad climber
East Bay, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Cool most recent posts.

Ed, would you pm that post or quote if not repost at least partly? Your posts are the most estimable of contributions anywhere. That one with that quote was a gift.
Kironn Kid

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Old cotton coin bag from local bank as a chalkbag.

Kiron Kid
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 26, 2013 - 03:02am PT
Tard, trad, dart, drat.
Tard, trad, dart, drat.
Credit: mouse from merced
"What is Red pointin' at?????????"
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:23am PT
I don't know how to break this to younDingus. Freddy has been reabsorbed by the power of the trad
"It's been a long strange trip but I'm back, and I'm beautiful! Tell dingus that no matter what he drills for me I ain't goin' sport no more!"

It seems it was the invert move on Serrator that set him back on the path.
Seen here in the desert, where he traded his draws and grigri for the tub of cams below. He quit his job, and mumbled something about spotting Alex on free solos.....
Credit: Jaybro
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:49am PT
Trad?

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jd8VT7PfO1A]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:45am PT
But, is she TRAD?


Or to put it another way:

Does She or Doesn't She?
(Tagline from a 70s Clairol hair coloring commercial)


picture from a NOLS postcard I just received in the mail

Reilly, take notice here, this is your new trad poster boy counterpart.
No doubt she can help you upgrade your knot tying skills just check out those sweet little shoelace backups for her flagging socks!

Aspiring Trad Heads please LISTEN UP:
CURRENT CHANGES TO THE RULES OF TRAD

Modern gear climbers like to wear packs while leading; no worries.
 But from now on, to earn and keep the respected mantle of trad, climbers MUST wear the vintage Kelty frame style pack modeled in the photo above! No exceptions!

 In addition, concerning socks, well by golly they must be worn.
 And more importantly: the little string thingies are now mandatory! No exceptions!
 Rules of Trad spoken right here, right now and forever!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Right then, back to serious business!

Court is now in session, in service of the continued ruling over the current status of TRAD!
Gavel down Bonk Bonk!

SPECIAL REPORT:
His Royal Tarness has just returned from Safari down in Indian Creek,
Where he engaged in serious investigative reporting and critical fact checking concerning the matter.
Full disclosure ... alcohol may have been ... er ... was involved:





Granted, as MH2 pointed out, there is little difference between Smith Rock and Indian Creek in terms of crowding and overall impact.
Glad we settled that can of worms and I'm happy all of you spent some time on the trampoline hashing out any environmental distinctions between trad and sport.

Well done and thank you ladies and gentlemen for that earnest work!



BUT to my FINDINGS!
I now present to you Northern Arizona climbers Dave Bloom, Bosco, John and Joel:



Dave Bloom, author of the Indian Creek guidebook, known on supertopo as: The Doctor, 49 years old.
Bosco, rescue dog and Flagstaff climber, age unknown.
John, Flagstaff climber, 25 years old.
Joel, Flagstaff climber, 29 years old.

So I asked the younger gentleman: what do you guys know of trad?
What does the current generation know of trad?

(all quotes paraphrased in accordance with my notes)

John, 25-year-old climber:
"Well, my dad was a trad climber so I know all about it. Mainly I climb sport, but I also climb trad and will be targeting things in the 12+ and 13 minus range here for the next three or four days. My focus won't necessarily be ground-up trad climbing, although I'll try some stuff ground-up on-site, however, I may also be head pointing and using a sport climbing approach to include aid inspection or top roping or whatever."

Joel, 29-year-old climber:
"I think since we are Northern Arizona climbers we know more about trad than they may in other areas. We use all styles, but I definitely like to climb things on site ground-up whenever possible. I climb up to 12- trad on-site and if I fail on something like a 12+ I like to come back and red point. Meaning I like to replace all my gear on subsequent attempts. Gear climbing and trad climbing are probably synonymous to most climbers these days; but we do get the difference in Northern Arizona. No aiding or pink pointing for a valid trad ascent in Northern Arizona. Most 18 to 21-year-olds probably just call it gear climbing and don't understand trad. I'd guess out of all modern climbers, about 10% understand trad for what it is."

Dave Bloom, 49 year old climber:
In 2003 Mr. Bloom on-site flashed the regular route on Half Dome, except for beta he'd received concerning the last pitch. He told me it's all just climbing. Or he tried too Frankly, I interrupted him because I deemed him too old and experienced to reflect what the younger generations know.

In short I tossed out Mr. Bloom's testimony because he knows too much! I'm kind of a dick that way; but it's how I roll, YO.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Right then,
Let's please all hold hands and respectfully move on to Exhibit A.

Joel's on-site flash of Steve Hong's wunnerful "Family Home Night" Simply rated 5.12.



Okay, first order of business, some things have changed!
For instance, young climbers who may also climb trad now use all-new-and-improved hand signals:





EXHIBIT A
Joel methodically ticking off Family Home, 5.12, April 19, 2013:





















What Is Trad?
I submit to you: This Is Trad!

Okay okay okay, so he didn't walk off the back and he doesn't rack on a sling. I know.
But remember, the definition of trad is not hard and fast; no, just a set of fuzzy book-ended guidelines.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
And so, as an aside ... a personal matter really,
Joel is my new Trad Hero, be it as it may that he's just a modern climber who also climbs trad.
Full disclosure: it used to be Pat Kingsbury, but I haven't seen him for a while and Joel is the new thing. I'm kind of a slut that way.



Dig:
Young climbers usually look to older climbers for their heroes.
While old climbers often look to young climbers in search of heroes.
That's just kind of the way it slopes out. Trust me on this one!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 26, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Only her belayer knows for sure....
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
hahahahahaha
mooch

Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
Apr 26, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
"What Is Trad??????"

.....Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me.....no more.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hU49o6zA5eo
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