What Is Trad ?????????

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 901 - 920 of total 1272 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
So Compton, are you eluding to a granfalloon you presume to speak for?

Good one. I had to look that up. Trad does actually exist, it just is right in front of our noses, not an abstract ideal from history to be put on a pedestal.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Tar,

I have no doubt that you are as Trad as it gets. Your troll analysis is quite interesting.

These days Trad climbers seem to care less about tradition and more about the physical endeavor, but it is still called Trad climbing if it is done on gear. I think it is great, but many 'Trads' esp. of the older variety fall back on the 'old days' as really being were it was it. I would argue that now is the Golden Age were technology, training, bravery, and adventure all combine.


You can't see the youtube link because the guy pulled it. Here it is on DPM
[quote]http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/rock-climbing-fall[/quote]
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 26, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Trad does actually exist, it just is right in front of our noses, not an abstract ideal from history to be put on a pedestal.... but many 'Trads' esp. of the older variety fall back on the 'old days' as really being were it was it.

This is a misconception. I don't see the original definition of trad as being abstract in the slightest, Patrick, but I'm open to your explanation of why and how it is abstract. No "falling back on the old days as being were (where?) it was it (at?)" either, on my part anyway, or on any "older variety trads" posting on this thread. Any climber can be exactly "where it was at" in the old days by climbing in the style that originally was called traditional. Free climbing with no aid whatsoever (no toproping, no resting on gear), ground up only. No pedestal involved, just clean free climbing.

What's so abstract about that?

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Patrick Compton in italics:

not an abstract ideal from history to be put on a pedestal.
It's a fact of history and a useful distinction, nothing more to me personally. The present is connected to the past. Things put on pedestals just get knocked over, so it isn't my bag. I am merely celebrating Trad.


but it is still called Trad climbing if it is done on gear.
This varies depending on locality and upon whom you talk to, is open for debate; but it is a circular debate at this point.


but many 'Trads' esp. of the older variety fall back on the 'old days' as really being where it was it.
Indeed true, but can't be helped.


I would argue that now is the Golden Age were technology, training, bravery, and adventure all combine.
It's certainly quite something to watch unfold and it's inspiring! Whether it's a Golden Age or not is opinion, speculation or conjecture.


Your troll analysis is quite interesting.
I say this because you behave as though you're not reading along and you make declarations such as this below which are wholly inaccurate, (thus my history at the top of the page):

So, a trip to IC and suddenly TRAD is chalk highways, gear-beta, grades and names written on rocks in chalk, and chain anchors. Awesome.

---------------------------------------------------------------


So, Patrick: you are essentially just dropping in, making very pointed statements, knocking balls all over the tennis court so that we will pick them up. You've repeated yourself in this regard and have done this without absorbing much of what has been said along the way. By this I mean you seem as though you have an ax to grind and you're not incorporating much of the ameliorative effort which has been made to address this apparent position. This effectively is trolling because it creates a lot of work in addressing the behavior. Counterpoint is useful but not when it is repetitive and distracting.

This thread is meant to be fun and stimulating. Not a typical hard position argumentative entrenchment, as is too often the case.

‘Hope that helps and Thanks,
Roy
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 26, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
I think it's hard for a lot of modern climbers to adhere to the original trad ethic because it's a lot harder to climb the rating ladder without compromising that ethic, especially if you want to "trad climb" at the same difficulty rating as you or your peers sport climb or gym climb. I think that's why the gear factor is all important in most modern climbers' minds, rather than the style factor, when it comes to trad.

It was even harder to raise your lead level within the trad ethic when there were only hexes and stoppers, or worse - pins, hammers and Kroenhoffers. Luckily for us old guys, 5.10 was the hardest climbing around when we got started, so you could feel like you were at the top of the game with a bit less effort than nowadays.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
Insightful and spot on from where I am sitting Kevin.
They also just may not care. But if you read my report from IC one page back, it is clear that some do.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Can you shut this blowhard down already?
It's getting kinda embarrassing to call him a friend if he keep this sh#t up.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Really...who wants to wants the mental strain these days?
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
Am I right?
just go climbing and leave the emo semantics to the historians.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 27, 2013 - 03:09am PT
Nice one, Russ! I spewed my beer and I don't waste beer easy!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 27, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Jaybro,

we do have the equivalent of an invert in face climbing. The face move gets your feet planted above you hands, useful when passing thru overhanging shelves. We also have a climb at Guernsey aptly named
Inversion Therapy
on a face route.

Freddie just has not made it this year to WY's warmest winter area: Guernsey State Park where there are many leg pulling moves. It seems you need more flexibility for the face inverts that the crack inverts.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 27, 2013 - 09:59am PT
just go climbing and leave the emo semantics to the historians.

quote of the thread.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 27, 2013 - 10:11am PT
So, Patrick: you are essentially just dropping in, making very pointed statements, knocking balls all over the tennis court so that we will pick them up. You've repeated yourself in this regard and have done this without absorbing much of what has been said along the way. By this I mean you seem as though you have an ax to grind and you're not incorporating much of the ameliorative effort which has been made to address this apparent position. This effectively is trolling because it creates a lot of work in addressing the behavior. Counterpoint is useful but not when it is repetitive and distracting.

If you would like to categorize me as a troll, that is fine. but saying I haven't contributed anything to the conversation is false. Points are only valid when they stand up to counter points, and my only observation lately is that your point has shifted since going to IC.

If this thread title was 'A celebration of Trad', I would indeed be 100% troll. But the title begs for a definition, and I have done my best to help accomplish that.
MisterE

Social climber
Apr 27, 2013 - 10:18am PT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 10:34am PT
GotBoay said:
just go climbing and leave the emo semantics to the historians.

This is nothing more than a disingenuous tactic to discredit discourse about climbing, within a climbing forum. The truth in it is that we are quibbling over semantics and this in light of the fact that many of us have already agreed that this "modern" trad definition flexes and is highly dependent upon locality and the age of the interpreter. As an example of my last point: please read the products of my recent interview with young Northern Arizona climbers.

This statement is also clearly coming from someone who's not following, because a lot of what is being discussed are the merits pitted against the losses when common usage shifts radically over time. Call it academic if you like but that's what discussions often become. Lastly, who are these historians if not we who were there and are still around to see the changes?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Patrick said:
my only observation lately is that your point has shifted since going to IC.
I get that but it's also completely inaccurate. Again this tells me you're not reading and this makes it difficult to hold a productive discussion when it is not predicated upon what has been said prior. Again, in the top two posts on the prior page I explained why the above assertion is incorrect. I didn't just fall off the turnip wagon and go to Indian Creek a week ago.

Essentially Patrick, while I applaud your coolness in your last few posts, you are not absorbing what's been said and as a result we are not communicating effectively. I'm not necessarily censuring you, I just see that this is going nowhere.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 27, 2013 - 11:02am PT
Dingus, "fer sher"* there's a long tradition of inverts in sportclimbing. Um, stacks of 'em you might say. Think of the dble kneebar rest in port of entry at cave rock, and similar moves at rifle and Maple, I don't think I in any way implied that was solely a "trad thing" gott diagree about the flexibility thing though its about the same, and I e done dozens in both column A and column b

Roy, when I lived in Vail there was some anonymous millionare that kept one a them Migs at the eagle airport. It was tricked out with modern drivetrain but he'd pull it out to catch some sport gees on the weekends.... Not sure if he had an Ablakov cam....




*as them Californians say
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Here you go Patrick, I will address JayBro's Granfalloon reference toward you:

You said:
The climbers he interviewed are obviously trads, and quite accomplished ones, but not by the Yos Rockmaster, olskool, OG, definition.
This is where semantical quibbling is a correct observation on GoatBoy’s part. And I gather at this point that we can't even be sure you understand what the old-school definition is and was. For whom do you speak with authority? This is JayBro's reference.

If you read completely what I wrote about my interview with the Northern Arizona climbers, you'd see that they do not appeal to your definition of trad. I wrote very succinctly on this matter. They know what trad is and does and they know that many of the tactics they now employ have moved beyond its definition. They completely understand the Yosemite Rockmaster, old school old guy definition. They see that your definition, modern as it may be, (and the fact of modern usage is difficult to establish), has grown too broad and loses its incisiveness.

I’ll say it again; they suspect 10% of modern climbers understand trad at all, rather, the modern majority of 18 to 21-year-olds merely see “gear climbing”. This is something which you and I covered about 700 posts back.

I have said many times over the course of this thread that I can't be certain where modern usage is, although I have my suspicions that it is all over the place, and I do not presume to be a guardian of its usage. I merely agree with Warbler that if the distinction is lost, then a big piece of the facts of the evolution toward modern free climbing is also lost.

I'm not going to repeat prior posts any further. I don't care if 900+ posts is too much for someone to read. For a cogent discussion to grow its a requirement.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 27, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
But the title begs for a definition, and I have done my best to help accomplish that.

If you have accomplished that, I missed it, and I don't want to wade through 900 posts to find it. Beyond Roy's sentiments, since you feel you've nailed down the definition, could you sum it up for us?
Messages 901 - 920 of total 1272 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews