What Is Trad ?????????

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Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:25am PT
Jaybro,

a lot of what are issues in CA are not issues in WY. Do we have a universal cosmic criteria for how one is to behave? Oh yes, it is leave no trace.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Jaybro,

Chip Salaun? , I get it.


Does a WY climbing camp differ from a WY hunting camp?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Yes, gradients. A few bolts here and there versus a multitude of bolts (and often chains) here, there, and everywhere.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:43am PT
Testing Configuration of 1/2" Ramhorn cold shuts.
Testing Configuration of 1/2" Ramhorn cold shuts.
Credit: Dingus McGee

Chains?? none needed. Elegance?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:47am PT
Mark,

you could go to designated wilderness? Would there be less bolts? It seems you want the status of all lands to have the rules you want? To some extent what goes on here in the US is what the gravity of the masses want, but a squeaky wheel can often get grease first.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:17am PT
The offroad community has come to some common ground about land use with cutting new trails here there and everywhere with ATCs, ATVs, and offload bikes being considered bad behavior and the community is on the path to regulating themselves. They know that their continued access to the environments they enjoy depends on it.

The whitewater boating community did the same thing. There are very clear community wide agreed upon rules of ethics concerning resource use - pack out your trash and your sh#t, don't cut firewood, leave the beach as pristine as possible, and don't change rapids...ever.

The horse packing community has agreement about preventing the importation of non-native seeds.

Some Eastern European climbing areas areas have community rules concerning preserving the resources and, IMHO, they have done well by it.

We, as a community, could do this, too. My vision would be to limit bolting to ground up and hand drilled. That automatically prevents indiscriminate bolting (IMHO).

There is a place for restraint. And, restraint helps establish us in a better position concerning resource use.

Enough on that and I won't post anything about that topic again. This has been a wonderful thread about the aesthetics and rewards of trad style climbing. It, unfortunately, has suffered drift into the realm of environmental ethics. I have been guilty, too; mea culpa.

We could all do well by bringing the thread back to its' original track and leave the other discussion for another thread.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Mark,

so each and every one of us would buy a large rack of friends and nuts plugging our resources into gear companies and their latest rage?

You seem to miss the point why there is Sport Climbing. Here it is, "We want overhanging climbs, granddaddy."

And also we want the self same sovereignty as to our style of protection (on those sedimentary face all you folks neglected) that you profess to demand when you tell us how it ought to be.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Now brother here is what you fail to see or mention, the effect of gradients. Yes, you and all that literature fail to have set up the question of how long would be the recovery time for plants to again grow in the cracks. Comparatively trails recover in a short time but once the soil and anchoring base is gone from a crack, the plant life will be gone for centuries.

I understand that, Dingus McGee, (I am married to a plant ecologist).

I will take down my babbling so that it does not mislead.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:37am PT
We, as a community, could do this, too. My vision would be to limit bolting to ground up and hand drilled. That automatically prevents indiscriminate bolting (IMHO).


The standard to be a mag these days is to climb 15a, and you want it put in ground-up on hand-drilled bolts. LMAO!

However, in a sense you are correct. The steeper the climbing gets, the most likely the bolts are put in ground-up, but not with a hand-drill.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Ed,

I will take down my babbling

fair enough.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:53am PT
Mark,

providing you do not claim too much turf here, there might be a framework of a better resolution between sport and trad.

Our turf is overhanging bolted face climbs supplemented by a few less steep bolted face climbs for warm-ups. And so by this claim we have for the most part territory that is unwanted/unused by trads.

Why do problems arise? Some of those with drills bolt cracks and old runout trad face climbs. Generally they are not members of the overhanging face climb seekers. Why? I suspect these trespassers cannot climb that hard and trying to find turf for more lower angle climbs. I would say these are the folks all of us could offer some lip service to as to where their activities have the proper turf.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:59am PT
Mark,

We could all do well by bringing the post back to its' original track and leave the other discussion for another post.


are you naive? To me some of trad is about what this very discussion has been hovering on recently, what is wrong with sport and how we violated your mother earth ideas of the world. I think the title of this post begs too for some of answering of that question.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:01am PT
I'm no plant ecologist, but i'm an observer of nature, and looking around at all the grassy and munge filled crack systems in Yosemite, I can't stretch my imagination to the point where it makes sense that cleaning a select one could have any environmental impact beyond the immediate crack being cleaned.

I accept that some may think that's bad enough, and that even what might be a classic climb doesn't justify it, but it seems to be an extremist perspective, and hard to understand if the person's a climber.

Visually even, 99.99% of people wouldn't notice if you didn't point it out to them in most cases, especially after a year of weathering.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:14am PT
Warbler,

I too have made your observation and judgement that few will notice what happens to single crack in the bigger picture. But the rumbling in my mind come from the disturbances my memory brings from 43 yrs on Devils Tower I do see a great loss of crack vegetation. Let's take Gooseberry Jam it is now devoid of plant life and the crack soil frame work. Hardly anyone climbs that size anymore and it has only a skeleton appearance when compared to the days before Kamps initiated the actions leading to its destruction. At least for me this is a felt loss and you may not have such feelings about what you see.

But at least for Assembly Line the skeleton crack sees plenty of use.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:39am PT
It's an emotional issue and everybody's entitled to their emotions, as long as they accept it as such. The problem is when emotion overcomes logic and emotional people try to impose their feelings on those who don't share the emotion.

I get emotional when I see a perfectly clean climb that once had loose blocks and vegetation making it impossible to climb...
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Dingus...Agree with much of what your saying (although the combative tone makes it hard sometimes to want to engage). It seems like this is more an issue of gear and technology as they pertain to climbing and the environment and less about issues of style. And although this thread is about a style of climbing, I like where it is going and maybe we can get beyond the style wars and come up with a more universal way of looking at climbing's impacts in general? Because it seems like there's a chance here to go that route unlike so many threads. And I hope Ed keeps babbling because need the ying to the yang so to speak.

Some hardcore enviro's eschew keeping man out of certain areas to maintain bio-diversity (a position I used to approve of until I realized that only the biologists were allowed in and that man IS essentially a part of nature like any other animal.

John Gill ended up climbing in an interesting fashion and coined a phrase I'm sure some one can help me with. Something like onsite optional soloing at whatever level one felt comfortable with. Covering new ground and simply taking off. And although I don't remember an environmental angle attached, it seemed like a more eco friendly way to go as seems the case with soloing in general except your not climbing the same trail and are spreading out the degradation, if you can call mans simple rite to ramble and roam any more impactful then any other critter's. But most of us climb with gear and in many different ways. At least Higgins makes an attempt to find democratic solutions through reasonable discourse which we seem to be rehashing here to get there.

Edit: And at least the word "trad" has brought us to a hopefully meaningful conversation because it was spawned during a time of hopeful environmentalism.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 19, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
What wstmrnclmr said!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 19, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
wstmrnclmr,

very much agree.

I think by accosting these unrestrained drillers, which we could call rogue drillers, with some effort to try to alter their ways might cool the steam. But as I see it they too must get some kind of turf that gives them less steep sport climbs. I presume this is what they are seeking when they modify existing bolt lines which are in an area where retrobolting is only permitted by the initial route setters wishes.

But also I am not suggesting they can bolt continuous good gear cracks in an area where gear predominates.
susu

Trad climber
East Bay, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Cool most recent posts.

Ed, would you pm that post or quote if not repost at least partly? Your posts are the most estimable of contributions anywhere. That one with that quote was a gift.
Kironn Kid

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Old cotton coin bag from local bank as a chalkbag.

Kiron Kid
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