What Is Trad ?????????

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Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 8, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Trad:
Start from the bottom, carry gear on a sling, protect as you go, top out, pound chest and yell like Tarzan.
Fall on the way up? Lower down, pull rope, try again. Three strikes and your out. At the worst, yoyo.

Dig?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Tarbussier Profiles™: Identifying The Genuine Trad Climber

Age:
 irrelevant (see: perpetual adolescence)

Clothing:
 knickers
 painter' s pants
 blue jeans (cuffs optional)
 Chouinard standup shorts
 rugby shirt
 faded Hawaiian shirt
 faded & torn t-shirt
 your shirt
 your girlfriend' s shirt!
 no shirt

footwear:
 Kronies
 Cortinas
 Spiders
 Blue Meanies (RRs)
 RDs
 PAs
 EBs
 FeeRays
 anything that edges
 JapFlaps
 Huaraches

Coiffure:
 kooky pointed felt hat
 terswary cap
 balaclava (not to be confused with baklava)
 headband
 unkempt curls (see: dirt & leaves)

Smell
 tincture of benzoin
 sweat
 loose pussy

Disposition:
 abstruse
 haughty
 disingenuously competitive
 obsequious, if you are a holdin’
 thoroughly and completely unrepentant
 shiftless
 way, way stubborn

Behavior
 no beta
 sleep in the dirt and like it
 makes own gear
 never quite sure of the outcome, but doesn't give a sh*t and goes anyway
 shares food, stash and adventure with complete strangers

Occupation:
 perpetually unemployed
 opportunist
 itinerant mooch

Income Stream:
 minimal to nonexistent
 no visible means of support
 canning
 bangin' nails
 temporary girlfriend

Diet:
 cafeteria scraps (see: scarfing)
 bunk weed
 cheap beer
 sarcasm

Career Aspirations:
 nil to none
 hand cracks, rurps, hauling
 seasonal girlfriend

Love Life:
 only two women in the whole wide world would/could possibly love him: his mom, his grandma

Hobbies:
 eat, sleep, sex*, drink, dream
*see: chronic masturbation

Precepts:
 training is for cheaters
 stretching is for girls
 yoga is for sport climbers
 sport climbers are neither
 a drop knee is something that occurs when your knee replacement goes bad
 flagging is what happens to you on every approach
 deadpoints are the arguments made by sport climbers
 a high ball problem is a testicular condition induced by cold weather, or simply the lack of a fresh drink
 a knee bar is a thing you have to wear to keep your leg from buckling
 a dynamic move is...a move
 a static move is...a failure to move
 chains are something used to lock up your bicycle

Quotes:
 "I am trad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!"

Defining Characteristics:
 defensive posture
 stoned
 well acclimated to downtime
 thoroughly misunderstood
 fit, lean, bricked (see: lats)
 boldly goes where no man has gone before!*
*...and where no one in their right mind would ever in their wildest dreams even consider going.
**no, not for any amount of money, loose p$ssy, fame, adulation or more m$ney ... Get Real!

Trad-To-The-Bone™ !!! Standup shorts, rugby shirt, balaclava, one-inch tubular slings, hip belay. Attitude, check.
Our PosterChild, supertopo's own Reilly:

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Check and noted..
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Thank you,
Discuss, revise, argue, and appease at will.
I will edit as deemed appropriate, or better: inappropriate!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#297956
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
To the Disposition category might I suggest 'unrepentant'?
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
logging naked.
bangin chicks without rubbers.
hiking talus for a barefoot mile.
quitting your job without warning, preparation, or a plan.
crack climbing, yo.
propagating your cause under the influence.
living simply in an excessive society.
hand-hewing timbers.
taking wool from a sheep, spinning it, and then knitting your own sweater...

on and on i can't go.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
Well done Weeg.
Thank you Reilly. Noted, slated!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
How could you leave out RR's in the footwear?

And I feel excluded, because my grandmothers died before I was born. Isn't my mother enough?

John
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:12pm PT


"Trad" = Traditional


My "Traditional" method of climbing is to get to the top any fuking way I feel like it...


So I am a "TRAD" climber extraordinaire!!!...





EDITED:

Remind me...

WHO wrote the "RULES" again???...

moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Interesting...

Just taking notes.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
"Seasonal Girlfriend"
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Loan me a dime?
Fundraising?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Blue Meanies = RRs
lockeR, you just wrote the rules dude! Trad climber is his own master; albeit he is a "slave to the rhythm".
Yes, seasonal girlfriend. Thank you.

I can't do this alone kids.
What the hell do I know?
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
TRaid

my favorite way
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
Trad climbers think

1. A drop knee is something that occurs when your knee replacement goes bad.

2. Flagging is what happens to you on every approach.

3. Deadpoints are the arguments made by sport climbers.

4. A high ball problem is a testicular condition induced by cold weather.

5. A knee bar is a thing you have to wear to keep your leg from buckling.

6. A dynamic move is...a move.

7. A static move is...a failure to move.

8. Chains are something used to lock up your bicycle.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Sorry Marlow, fundraising is so postmodern trad.
"Loan me a dime" see: itinerant mooch
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
RGold.
Like!
What do you say we call those "precepts"?
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
A ledge
photo not found
Missing photo ID#297959
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Moosy: that's too funny. Over the last couple years I've been in a wheelchair and been put on oxygen concentrator. Happily, both stints were brief!

Roll it out kids ...
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:41pm PT


...


^^^

That's sort of maybe not that far off for me...

LOL!!!...

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Training is for cheaters.
Stretching is for girls.
Yoga is for...?
Sport climbers are...?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
LocKer: But the local skanks report you can still get a Boner, so you got that going on! Ef not, just charge that extra tank with compressed air ...
FrankZappa

Trad climber
Hankster's crew
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
I do think it's funny to see the young, strong ones up at the trad cliff toproping the hell out of the hardest routes up there so they can then lead it with the knowledge of every move and every gear placement, and seeming very proud of themselves for being out "Trad" climbing on 5.Hard R/X.
I tell them they are not really Trad climbing; they are working a route.
They look very confused.

But who really cares?
Out climbing = fun!
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
Are u trad if you run outta cum?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
Trad is to sportclimbing like new wave was to punk. A definition by what it's not!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Within my free complimentary copy of Ascent 2013 from Mountain Gear is an article addressing the title of this thread by Dean Flemming pgs 96-97. Defining the Line, a lexicological look at trad and sport climbing.

For Dean exceptions can be cited everywhere to about any defination we have for trad yet the term(s) [trad and sport] is evolving. But we can tell a lot from, "the type of equipment that is needed to complete it[the climb]."
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
agree with above. This photo surfaced from the early 60's and shows hints of what was to come.
Credit: TMJesse
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Yes Jesse that's the spirit!
This thread needs pictures, THOSE kinds of pictures.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Are u trad if you run outta cum?
Well, strictly speaking, no. See: perpetual adolescence = young dumb & full of cum.
It's a state of mind as much as anything else you see, or stubbornness.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
kooky pointed felt hat


I feel worthless now.


Where can you get a felt pointed hat? A nice red one like Mr. Galwas'!
Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Or a terswary.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
Can you distinguish a trad climber from a sportclimber by appearance?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
I'll be right back with that in a bit Munge,
but in the meantime ...

Sheridan Anderson: how can we get much more trad?
Yes folks, and thank you Jay! A quick visual scan reveals this man absolutely not ever ever to be confused with a sport climber!

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Trad is to sportclimbing like new wave was to punk. A definition by what it's not!

YES by all means: we need to expand this concept. Definition by exclusion.
Question: A TRAD CLIMBER IS NOT?

Review the precepts in the second post first however ...
Pull the rip cord on your lists people!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
This is very important work we are doing here folks.
God's work, if you will, not to impugn the faithful!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
Tarbuster,

it seems traditional for a trad climber to be concerned about the definition of his group and sporty for a sport climber to not be concerned how his group is defined. So you can define the sport climber with sport even though you are a trad.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:44pm PT

and more important...

What is darT???...


...

???...

...

???...

...

???...

...

???...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
So, Dingus:
In answer to the question: A TRAD CLIMBER IS NOT? Simple answer number one would be: sport climber?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
This image is of course WAY indicative of TRAD!

wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Nice butt bag Philo.....Cool Weeg....
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
What about this guy?
Credit: Ed Hartouni

Or the photographer, shooting B&W filmFilm?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Dingus!
Hell yes.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
From the AAC Museum:

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Yes, film is trad.

And of course, speaking of film, these Randy fellows?
Trad? You bet your bed role, dang it, and your spurs too:


Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
Oddly I was thinking of this what-is-trad question a week back after leading a pitch that had six shiny bolts and two weak cams in 170 feet. That doesn't sound very trad but sure felt like it.

Plus, I was wearing white pants.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
Echo Peaks - Cathedral Range, early 60's
Echo Peaks - Cathedral Range, early 60's
Credit: J. F. Runner

Credit: TMJesse
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
And this little squirt?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:11pm PT

...

"Yes, film is trad"...





LOL!!!...

Good photo choice...

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
And these lovely siblings are standard bearers for what, exactly?
Credit: Fluoride
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
No beta
Sleep in the dirt and like it
Make your own gear
Never quite sure of the outcome, but don't give a sh*t and go anyway
Share food, stash and adventure with complete strangers
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:11pm PT


LMAO!!!...

Beth and the n00b...

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Yes sir.

Colorado Trad Climber, in California:



Another one of them California Trad Climbers:



Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
Guys who went trad, if only for one episode:

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
Tarbuster,

a trad climber is not one who does only both bolt only free climbs and bolt only climbs whose bolts were established by top rope.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Trad summit anchor. Watched by Buddha.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
It used to be just "climbing" until the advent of sport climbing led to the deignation of trad to distinguish between the two. I like both along with alpine climbing.....so for me it's still just going climbing
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Small picture of trad GIANT:

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
It used to be just "climbing" until the advent of sport climbing led to the deignation of trad to distinguish between the two. I like both along with alpine climbing.....so for me it's still just going climbing

So what, we're not listening, TRAD climber:

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Early sighting of trad Chick!
Annie Peck, on the Matterhorn:

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Claude Fiddler, Oz:


Carter photo

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Phil Bircheff, Millis:


Carter photo
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
Too funny Tarbuster!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
Olevski?
Trad rascal!

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Too funny Tarbuster!
Don't try to trick me with platitudes Jim.
I'm on a roll! This can't and won't be stopped.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
eKaterinaTradita!!!!!

WyoRockMan

Trad climber
Flank of the Bighorns
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Not sure if trad, but definitely rad.

Plucked from the internet machine.
Plucked from the internet machine.
Credit: WyoRockMan
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
???
Tom Morrison, Chuck Cochran, Rick Wheeler ... GUILTY:


Carter photo
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Those cams Musta all bee fairly NEW!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Not sure if trad, but definitely rad.

THE VERM?
Trad trad trad trad trad.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Who is the guy on the right?

photo not found
Missing photo ID#297978
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:09pm PT



...

LOL!!!...

Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
it seems traditional for a trad climber to be concerned about the definition of his group and sporty for a sport climber to not be concerned how his group is defined. So you can define the sport climber with sport even though you are a trad.

Dingus' definition seems spot on to me.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
That makes no sense whatsoever, (which, I assume is what playful Dennis was getting at) both linguistically, but also, ironically,since sportclimbers are the ones concerned with, and first created / insisted on, the distinctions in the first place!

Labels are for people who need them.

I've been called a trad climber, by others not myself, though I have put up dozens possibly hundreds of "sportclimbs" and was one of the first to do so.

If pressed, I'm a climber, but I think it's more accurate to say I climb.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
Trad climbers post photos that look like they're from instagram.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 8, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
Credit: philo
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
Yes Craig, the first time I did Oz was with you!
That was a good day. Maybe 1980. I'm pretty sure you led the crux face and I got the big corner.

But we did not do the Gram.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:12pm PT

I like it better when it was "CLIMBING" and "SPORT CLIMBING/FAG CLIMBING"

In the end, I'm just happy were still allowed to climb... I know the day will come when a group fighting to save lichen is going to have their way with these sports.

Cheers
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
This thread is much more about goofing off than any kind of divisive structure to separate climbers from one another. Got to admit the whole thing is pretty funny. Though the distinctions are there to be made, for my part there's not a whiff of judgmental tone intended.

Celebrate The TradNess!!!!

A good chunk of the people posting on this forum no doubt started trad, simply due to the obvious fact that sport climbing had not yet been coined when we first tied in.
MisterE

Social climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Credit: MisterE
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
Loon.
Loon.
Credit: philo


TeeeeRad.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
That surely is not trad.
But it is goofy as hell so it passes muster!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Okay back to work.
Work work work work, that's all it is around here.

Don Reid:
You bet your bananas he's trad!


Carter photo


Carter, The Apron, slabbing about in Huaraches:


Carter photo


Cochran! Resting on all his traditional laurels & glory:


Carter photo
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Jaybro,

re: the post of mine that Freddie Quotes is about the present situation as I have observed recently. You might be correct about early sport climbers wanting to have another name or group? Really how did this name come about is a consideration but not how the group currently feels.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
They were young once and climbers....thanks for the trip down memory lane!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
You trad climbers seem like the republicans that deny gay rights while sport climbers are like the young who can tolerate all.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
They were young once and climbers....thanks for the trip down memory lane!
You bet.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:35pm PT

You trad climbers seem like the republicans that deny gay rights while sport climbers are like the young who can tolerate all.

Cripes,
There's all kinds of cognitive dissonance when adherents to various factions really take a good look at one another's stances. Not in every case for sure. I could go on but I'm too lazy.

I got work to do.
Powder

Trad climber
the Flower Box
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
wow.. this Trad/thread is very entertaining... ~_~
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
What the hell is this?
Somehow I'm thinking it's neither.

Carter wearing Shelley Presson's tights:
 and yes by the time this photo was taken the whole trad/sport dustup was in full swing!

We were thinking that's Brossman, or is it Al Roberts?
'Twas cause for much controversy, the first time it got posted, as to the identity of the mystery man.


Carter photo
rrider

climber
Mckinleyville, Ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
I think trad climbing might also mean: no waiting lines; no I-phones hooked up to supertopo info; no insurance policy; no laptops; no porta-ledge bistros; no sponsors...not that there’s anything wrong with it...it just seems more associated with sport-era evolution. It’s all just climbers climbing, no matter how you view it.

Now back to having fun.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Powder astutely pointed out:
wow.. this Trad/thread is very entertaining... ~_~

Nice emoticon. But you got tah to do the work too.
It says right up front ... disposition: way way stubborn. We like our bickering.
We can handle the heat sweetheart. Thanks for visiting!
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
We were thinking that's Brossman

It's BraveBrossman!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Exactly!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Flat-out best photo of Millis I have ever seen:


Carter photo

and yes folks!
Millis was trad trad trad trad. And a one-of-a-kind in every sense of the word.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
I dunno what "Trad" is. I don't use that term.
Rock on, Tarbuster.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Check out CF!
He looks like he's about 16:


Carter photo

Cochran in the background.
An empty bag of gummy bears for anyone who guesses the ledge?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
TRAD!

Even Trad climbers, by many accounts, don't like the term.
I feel your pain. It's stodgy, divisive, clumsy, unaesthetic.

So's my hair but I still got to wear what's left of it!
WyoRockMan

Trad climber
Flank of the Bighorns
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
This guy is a helluva sport climber.

Credit: WyoRockMan
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
I dunno Tar all them kids be shaving it off.

So that was unintentional, nonsense Dingus?

The thing with labels is that they make it too easy to take sides, and then define your side favorably and define the other side in a way to make them look like naughty Klingons, or something.

Instead of comparing notes, because we all do things differently than one another.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Trad=mountain adventure+unknown/who cares outcome

Father (note fishing pole just in case)
Credit: R.C. Brown

Son
Tenaya Canyon Excursion
Tenaya Canyon Excursion
Credit: Art Gonzales
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Jay Said:

The thing with labels is that they make it too easy to take sides, and then define your side favorably and define the other side in a way to make them look like naughty Klingons, or something.

Correct!
"Makes it easy" would be the operative here.

However, categorization and labels enable communication on a daily basis about all kinds of phenomenon and choices at hand.

Apparently for many it's an unconscious choice to use categorization and labels as a means to control or criticize others. As in: "Don't box me in dude".

But if you think about it, categorization and labeling is a tool for communicating with other people our observations about conditions within our surroundings and in fact these tools rest at the very foundation of language. Not that I'm a linguist. But I'd wager this is so.

It simply is necessary for us to define our terms to communicate concepts.

All of these ill feelings can be reduced to intent.
It's simply not a given with categorization and labeling that the outcome must necessarily be divisiveness.

It is not fait accompli.

Differences do not necessarily predetermine conflict. Intent does.
Differences exist prior to any categorization or labeling. Those tools are not the evils; rather it is the intent behind them. Shirking distinctions will not save us from our tendency to engage conflict. If we are hell-bent on conflict we will find a way. And perhaps with even less clarity!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
WyoRockMan:
This guy is a helluva sport climber.

Is that Chris Bonnington?
WyoRockMan

Trad climber
Flank of the Bighorns
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Dr. Pat Callis
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
Walter Rosenthal!
Cleaning pitch 5 of Tangerine Trip 1977:


Carter photo

Walls are typically considered a trad format.
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
You got me so confused that I have changed my profile :>
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
DR F:
OK I admit it, What the hell is trad???
I have no idea what the word means when it comes to climbing....

Actually, we have three fairly defined subsets of free climbing currently and have for about 15 or 20 years.

Trad climbing.

Head pointing.

Sport climbing.

Trad climbing is starting at the bottom and climbing to the top, with minimal artifice. Risk is minimized but embraced.
Sport climbing is setting up routes from the top down with a primary focus on safety and difficulty. Risk is nearly eradicated.

Head pointing is smack in the middle of the two: near equal emphasis is put on preservation of both the rock and the climber. Bolts are typically eschewed, ensuring preservation of the rock in a relative sense, while maximum difficulty is sought through pre-inspection and often preplacement of protection. This also helps to ensure preservation of the climber.

Head pointing was essentially established on Grit, wherein most of us understand bolts are a big no-no.
Head Point pre-inspection uses gear much in the way that trad climbers do except with pre-knowledge and often preplacement. Rehearsing moves minimizes risk and maximizes difficulty.

It sits squarely between trad climbing and sport climbing.
It is also very risky, but is more of like a performance due to pre-knowledge and practicing or working of the route.

It's not that difficult to comprehend these distinctions and we actually have these terms at hand and have for some time.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
As you know, just as I wrote in the OP, the idea was to minimize taints.
Concepts such as three strikes and you're out, yo-yoing, were not ideal to an on-site flash of course.

These are gray areas but the general concepts hold quite easily.
You start from the general and then work through to the specific and this of course is where no system of labeling or categorization can be taken as an absolute.

These are guidelines for communicating style.
They need be nothing more.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
from Wiki sport,

SportAccord uses the following criteria, determining that a sport should:[1]


[1] have an element of competition

[2] be in no way harmful to any living creature

[3] not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier (excluding proprietary games such as arena football)

[4] not rely on any 'luck' element specifically designed in to the sport


They also recognise that sport can be primarily physical (such as rugby or athletics), primarily mind (such as chess or go), predominantly motorised (such as Formula 1 or powerboating), primarily co-ordination (such as billiard sports) or primarily animal supported (such as equestrian sport).[1]

If we accept the above 4 categories as reasonable criteria to justify the use of the word "sport" in sport climbing, we can then ask what is it about trad climbing that makes it not sport climbing?

I do remember the days of many climbers saying {now trad} climbing wasn't competitive. Trad lacks #1.

Bolts and pre bolting of sport climbing are an attempt to better meet criteria #2

In some sense criteria #1 and #2 are definitely part of sport climbing and to a lesser extent a part of trad climbing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
Dr F:
If you wish to climb in traditional style and you "taint", you simply did not reach your goal. This only matters intrinsically to the individual, or as an aspect of honest communication if one is seeking a comparative situation: as in competing or reporting style.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Dingus:
[1] have an element of competition

An interesting thing about trad climbing is that the competition was somewhat surreptitious, if not just informal. It became more important in regards to reporting that we define our terms and report accordingly.

Of course none of this has anything to do with simple enjoyment.
Or exercise.

It's about how we relate what we do to others and about how we define our own goals.

I like what you did there by pulling out a cogent exposition of competition.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
OK, got it, all taints should be documented in your notes, and a taint free ascent will be the only way to gain a peaceful sleep at night

Very funny!
All of that stuff really only relates to personal satisfaction or to competition or reportage.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
Dingus:
In some sense criteria #1 and #2 are definitely part of sport climbing and to a lesser extent a part of trad climbing.

I'd say that's accurate.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Walter Rosenthal and Allan Bard,
Preparing for Tribal Rite!

Both climbers are now no longer on the planet.
I suspect they wouldn't care much about these distinctions.
But it's my thread! And since they are preparing for a wall climb and generally engaged in ground up free climbing, I'm going to say they are/were ........... Trad Climbers!


Carter photo
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Hey!
What's this:


photomanipulation by OUCH!
covelocos

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Trad is...































what makes life worth living!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
Trad or sport?
Some things simply defy categorization,
But I have to put this in the bucket of simply fooling around:



... and it looks like it's at Edna's expense, but we don't know if Paul nailed the landing.
MH2

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:27am PT
Rock Me To Sleep
Elizabeth Akers Allen
(1832-1911)


Time is what prevents us from climbing everything at once. In every style.


For me

From '67-mid '70 it was pins, goldline, and kletterschuhe.

Then the mystical pure era of clean climbing. EBs and nuts.

Then Friends and Firés.

Then Smith sport.

And a revolution of some kind or other every 3 years since.



Good fireworks show on this thread.
Let the fire rise!
Nick

climber
portland, Oregon
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:33am PT
Credit: Nick
Now an old trad dad.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 12:33am PT
Rock Me To Sleep
Elizabeth Akers Allen
(1832-1911)

Time is what prevents us from climbing everything at once. In every style.

Wow!
Excellent attribution, from a woman in the 19th century no less.
You've had a nice run too.

I'm a student of all forms of mountain travel and appreciate all of these different styles of rockclimbing of course.
Thanks for posting up MH2.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:37am PT
Cobra's
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 12:40am PT
Good one Nick!
Trad or just dirt bag?

Note absence of laces from Adidas Cross-Country.
Appropriated for the EBs on that particular weekend.
The stock white cotton laces were really cheap.


Our trip to peak 11, 440'.
I remember it well; steep cross-country hike in, semi-productive probe up into the climb to the right of that Clevenger route.

I remember that guy in the photo really well.
We've had all the same experiences and both still kicking!

Neither of us can recall the wine ... probably from Trader Joes?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 9, 2013 - 03:09am PT
This thread is one of the best in awhile, so much funny stuff & great posts.

Tarbuster, thanks for clarifying the c#m thing for me :-)
So in your opinion where does bouldering fit in with this? It was not included on your list of established freeclimbing methods? does it fit into one of the listed categories? Seems it could go either way? I like the shot of you bouldering above.

For instance- You could be working a greasy 10' lip traverse boukder problem caked in color coded tick marks so you know where to heel hook, with like 15 pads & 15 topless dudes with gopros & then decide to wander off & get some air, you end up finding & climbing some random mossy 30' highball youve never seen before with no pad, spotter or clue what's up there? Maybe it even has a crack in it? Getting closer to trad or no? Ground up adventure can be found in many ways on the rock. in this case though maybe no trad because ur topless with a beanie on?

It seems every top level "trad" climber of right now was a plastic prince at some point or clipped hella bolts, every single one. This is a tradition that probably won't change in modern day trad for some time or ever, so maybe coz is right........

Maybe better to define climbs & areas as trad/sport/headpoint/ rather than the people who climb them? I will do a climb of any style if I'm attracted to it in some way, i feel like I'd miss out on a lot of amazing climbing if I only did trad climbs & wanted to be a trad climber or sport climbs & wanted to be a sport climber. Seems like that's where it's at in this day & age, climb everything. It's a jambalaya
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 9, 2013 - 04:19am PT
Trad= Onsighting a 5.8 put up by 5.12 climbers, with only 3 bolts and taking two cams. Only one of which fits.



Aka being scared shitless that you're going to deck the whole time, but getting it done anyways.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Apr 9, 2013 - 09:21am PT
When yer rack is older than most climbers age,
placing a hex, old school style.
placing a hex, old school style.
Credit: T Hocking
B&W photos of you exist.
F.A. Nuts to you 5.8  <br/>
Cougar Rock Taylorsville, Ca. 1977
F.A. Nuts to you 5.8
Cougar Rock Taylorsville, Ca. 1977
Credit: T Hocking
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 09:25am PT
Trad Tad? Lol. A fun & funny thread.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 9, 2013 - 09:31am PT
The "thing" is pretty f*#king clear cut.
It's the "act" where things get fuzzy.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:00am PT
Tarbuster spoketh:

"TRAD!

Even Trad climbers, by many accounts, don't like the term.
I feel your pain. It's stodgy, divisive, clumsy, unaesthetic."

I was playing squash with Marketa years ago at the Littleton YMCA and we met this guy that played racquetball every time we were there. It turned out he used to climb a lot back in the 70s all around the front range. So of course I said, "What kind of climbing did you do? Trad or sport?"

He looked at me and said, "We just called it climbing."

Roy, it looks like you and I are more ladder than tradder in that picture.
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:16am PT
Trad climbers are men..we like to make beef jerky,shit with the door open and talk about pussy...
Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:34am PT
Terswary?


Photo of ekatarina up thread=babealicious!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 11:17am PT
RyanD!
Thanks for drawing this out thoughtfully.
You said:

This thread is one of the best in awhile, so much funny stuff & great posts.
Thanks! I'm all about understanding and sharing and not at all about polarization and argumentation. Certainly not when it comes to climbing anyway! At the outset, especially in terms of the climber profile "funny" is exactly what this thread is supposed to be. At the same time, I'm fresh out of this other thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2107529/fixed-pitons-are-trad-and-rad ...... where a much-needed and begged, simple distinction needed to be made about trad, so I made one there and started this thread to strike a line in the sand about a very simple way of looking at trad which is all that is needed in the end. It's just not that complicated. To my mind none of it is. So I just thought I would daylight it a little bit.

Tarbuster, thanks for clarifying the c#m thing for me :-)
No worries. Ha ha. At the end of the 80s The Fish and I were on a bouldering trip to a place called City of Rocks, or Rock City in New Mexico. Keep in mind most of the time you will spend with Russ, it is all about laughing and mocking whatever is happening. So we were bouldering and giggling and goofing off and I said to him: "First guy to the top of the Boulder has the biggest Dick!".

I mean what is any of this? Groping over stone; up down sideways whatever. Jeepers. Not that we don't need distinctions to communicate concepts or to serve accurate reportage.

So in your opinion where does bouldering fit in with this?
Bouldering is just bouldering. And it wasn't invented in the early 90s. Neither was highballing. Some youngsters just refocused their powers on it. It's evolved; all pads do is allow you to go higher. Getting uptight about pads is fairly ridiculous. I just don't like to carry one around and I don't Boulder hard enough to need one frankly. There is no pad beneath me in the photo above. I doubt I fell off any of the dozens of problems we did that day. Pretty much just too old to be falling to the ground from any height! Certainly now that I have had both hips replaced that will be even more important.

An associate of mine once referred to an area I hadn't been to as "trad bouldering". Part of me thought "oh Jesus", but I knew exactly what he meant: relatively easy bouldering.

It seems every top level "trad" climber of right now was a plastic prince at some point or clipped hella bolts, every single one. This is a tradition that probably won't change in modern day trad for some time or ever, so maybe coz is right........
Bingo. Plus, he's Coz : how on earth can he be anything other than right? Heh. You'll notice on my avatar I just say climber. I don't feel any need whatsoever to categorize myself. But if someone were to say I am "primarily" a trad climber, or even just "Roy is a trad climber" they'd be spot on and I wouldn't take offense at being "caged" by a label or a descriptor. It's kind of hard to escape the reality that we are what we do; though the existential truth of that is much deeper for every living being.

I believe I was involved in about half a dozen sport route constructions in Joshua Tree in the late 80s. I did a lot of hard bouldering when I was young. And a lot of leading. And a handful of grade 6 walls. Not so much hard nailing. Heck, in the 70s people would say "he/she" is "just a boulderer". Or one of my favorites coming from the wall climbers was "he/she " is a "Deck Ape"; which meant they never really got more than a pitch or two off the ground on free climbs. Those are/were meant to be confrontational forms of categorization. It's just inaccurate to feel that any form of categorization is intended and limited to serving the base ends of criticality or ad hominem attack.

Now, this conceptual frame leads me, and led me to your next point prior to your making it, so thanks for this:

Maybe better to define climbs & areas as trad/sport/headpoint/ rather than the people who climb them?

By my observation categorization is more apt and less likely to raise hackles when it is circumscribing behavior and not personage! "This is trad" or "that is not trad" as opposed to "he or she is or isn't a trad climber". People will feel less put upon if we say they "engage" in trad climbing, sport climbing, head pointing or whatever. As soon as we tell someone what they "are" this or that, most will instinctively squirm because they feel they are being limited.

Probably, depending on the audience, employing a little sensitivity to this fact is a tact that will go a long way in smoothing relations. Is it nitpicking? All depends on your assessment of the receiver's emotional composition and general disposition.

Cheers Ryan et al,
Happy Climbing!
Roy
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Need a poster child?

Credit: Reilly

I'm also available for Sasquatch doubling.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 11:23am PT
RGold, from another thread, penned this magnificent, and I believe, helpful piece which really needs a good home:
Trad climbers got stuck with the "traditional" name as a counterpoint to sport climbing. In fact, every generation of climbers has violated tradition by choosing to abandon at least some of the cherished rules of the previous generation. This is at least partially because the previous generation had already gotten about as far as possible within the context of the rules they adhered to.

Typically, the role of the previous generation has been to complain bitterly about the transgressions of the current generation and, in so doing, prevent at least some of the outrages that result from the drive of outsize egos for accomplishment.

I think sport climbing upended this conservative process by being something different and parallel to what came before, rather than an evolution of it. Although we don't like to say so in this country, the presence of risk and the way in which it is confronted lies at the heart of what is now referred to as traditional climbing. Sport climbing has banished risk, at least the forms of risk inherent in trad climbing, in favor of other aspects of climbing, and as the sport climbing mentality spreads, it becomes increasingly difficult to even communicate about the distinctions between the genres, not least because of the irrelevant formulations such as bolts vs. gear.

Consider a trad climb with a risky section. It's been done many times, but now there is a contingent of climbers who want to put a bolt there. Why? Because that part of the climb is risky! More people could enjoy it if there was a bolt, and the community has a "right" to the route.

But the risk is exactly why the trad climbers don't want the bolt there, although somehow that never seems to be made clear. Trad climbers see controlling the risk through the use of gear that may not be bomber and the practice of self-control under pressure as one of the intrinsic challenges of the sport.

Putting in that bolt destroys part of the essence of the climb for the trad climber. People may not like this and may not agree with it, but they should at least understand that there is a genuine and irreconcilable conflict between the preservation of risk and the desire for a risk-free environment.

Saying that risk is intrinsic to trad climbing does not mean that trad climbers want arbitrary risks. Trad climbing isn't a collection of stunts like how many cars you can jump your motorcycle over. The risks of trad climbing are the ones intrinsic to the environment: unknown territory ahead, no cracks for pro, no stances to drill from. This is why those who say "just don't clip the bolt" are utterly clueless. The bolt modifies the environment and makes a former intrinsic risk into a stupid stunt.

I grew up in a time when all climbing was trad climbing. I have nothing against sport climbing, and because of the decreased risk I find it increasingly attractive as I get older and more brittle. But I also would have found the sheer pursuit of difficulty in sport climbing compelling when I was young, strong, and less likely to snap on impact. I just wish the the practitioners of the two genres would learn to respect the traditions of each (yes, sport climbing is now old enough to have traditions too) and not try to impose their perspectives and preferences on the other styles of climbing. The UK is the only country that seems to have really managed to do this.

Unfortunately, there is a substantial asymmetry in the two outlooks that puts trad climbing at an enormous disadvantage. Trad climbers, by and large, are about leaving things as they are. Sport climbing is all about permanently modifying the environment to provide a certain type of experience. Someone with a Hilti will put in a bunch of bolts somewhere, and then we hear that they should be left in because who wants to start a bolt war. According to this view, the Hilti owners have free reign to do whatever they want and the rest of the climbing community just has to be resigned to it.

Of course, the sense of entitlement that allows a self-appointed guardian of communal safety to bolt trad routes will never be fully constrained to the placement of protection. Once one type of environmental modification has been embraced, the barriers to other types become fragile, and that is why we are seeing more and more chipping, even in former bastions of traditional values like the Gunks where the owners of the land explicitly forbid such actions.

For context see this thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2107529/fixed-pitons-are-trad-and-rad
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:33am PT
Mr. no-taint himself.

Jim Erickson on Rosy courtesy Ed Wright and MP.com
Jim Erickson on Rosy courtesy Ed Wright and MP.com
Credit: ydpl8s
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:35am PT
You don't expect me read it all, do you?

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:36am PT
I think the competitive element in sport & "Trad" is pretty neck and neck. Mandatory in neither, irrelevant to most and compulsively indulged in by a few.

So I guess that means it's All sportclimbing....

However if we, as dingus suggests, move trad out of the field of sport because it is allegedly less safety oriented, doesn't that mean that the much more dangerous endeavors; skiing, surfing, BASE jumping, Mtn biking, bull fighting, bear heckling, cliff diving, golf etc can't be considered sport?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Yes Jay!
You're certainly on the right track in trying to delineate these things.

Wasn't it Hemingway who said something like: "There exists only three true sports: auto racing, bullfighting, and mountain climbing, the rest are just games".

Really by definition those are "blood sports".
I think head pointing is damn near bloodsport. Alpinism certainly can be characterized as such. Free soloing is absolutely bloodsport. Cripes, much of alpinism is free soloing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Okay, let's get a little edgy! Of course, still in the interest of having a little fun.
These two guys were among the first of the leading Trad Cognoscenti or TradGnoscenti™ ® © to break from rank and start hangdogging!

Nevertheless they've definitely got the clothing right!
So, they are trad trad trad trad trad trad trad TRAD!



Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:53am PT
The redefinition of trad to 'climbing with a rack' is nearly finished. A few more of us old dogs will have to stop insisting on the archeological definition of trad....

I'm just a climber, and thankful for that. I was thinking just the other day, how LUCKY I am, to be 'just a climber.'

Thanks Roy for a great thread. I'm glad to see you posting again. I missed your words.

DMT
Fuzzywuzzy

climber
suspendedhappynation
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:55am PT
Roy

Claude Fiddler on Oz.

Jim Pettigrew with Dave Bircheff.

Tom Morrison outside Bishop Inyo (Clevenger's window) (big story there) next to CC & Wheeler.

Walter cleaning pitch 5 Trip 1977.

Nick - nice one of "Libito"!

TC
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
"Trad"

Why do we allow ourselves to be defined by sport climbers?

Rebel! Fight back!

The word "trad" is hereby banned forever, to be replaced by the word "real."
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Thank you Tom & Mr. Milquetoast!
rrider

climber
Mckinleyville, Ca
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Now Topol...he knows trad

http://youtu.be/gRdfX7ut8gw

I know this's probably been posted before, but...tradition
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
"Trad"
Why do we allow ourselves to be defined by sport climbers?
Rebel! Fight back!
The word "trad" is hereby banned forever, to be replaced by the word "real."
Darn tootin' straight shootin' Sierra Ledge Rat!
Here here! GAVEL down, BONK BONK on the head!!!

I first heard the term "sport climbing" in 1981 or so when Mike and Mari came back from Europe, same trip when Bachar went over there and put up Chasin' the Train.

They brought that term back with them. Or maybe we got it from Wolfgang Gullich when he visited right around that time. We thought it was kind of awkward; this need to make a distinction for what was essentially poor form and cheating! Ha ha. Denigrating our beloved pastime to some lowly rank such as sport.

But it was a distinction.

Then this abomination "Trad" showed up around the middle of the decade.

Rebel, repent, seek & destroy. Resistance Is Futile.
I am trad as hell and just can't take it anymore

Er, I mean I am real. That's it! Must scrub that ... Into ... My gray matter.

All this other stuff doesn't even in reality actually exist.
I feel better now. Thank you so very much!
Heh.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
I think Le Grec was trad as trad can be in the Cassin way

"Contrary to « professionals » and today’s young climbers, he only climbed during week-ends which during his years started only the Saturday afternoons and during his summer holidays which were a maximum of 4 weeks – in his time no 35 hours week and no RTT - le Grec used public transport: so to go and climb on the Bertagne peak, with Sonia and his friends, they were taking the tramway to Aubagne, then the bus to Gémenos and then walking to the foot of the wall. To go to Chamonix, he took the railways and was driving a Vespa to go to the Vercors, it was the vehicle he used for his work as a sales rep for printing material, with which he travelled up and down the Bouches du Rhône, the Var and Vaucluse during 10 years. He waited until his pal Robert Gabriel stopped climbing in 1956 (for wedding reasons) to find a new rope mate, Marc Vaucher who had a Citroen DS and at last enjoyed the comfort and saving time that a car is giving you. Le Grec never learned how to drive as also he never learned how to swim. For a Marseille man that is really taking the cake! Himself stated that he was « a Sunday climber » and not a true « sportsman » as the young stars of today navigating in the 8th grade! Despite this, his list of ascents is still today amazing and above all of high quality: Oh the Livanos routes! Repeating them sufficed to convince oneself that you were part of the better ones! They were a must : "The one who did without bivouaquing the Livanos pillar at Archiane could consider the big North walls…" …Bruno Fara, Climbing years 1970), that is in the Vercors as in Dolomites, then in the 1950s and 1960s, there were much less French climbers there. This is how he concluded his scoring at the end of 1978, when, aged 55, he stopped climbing after 40 years of activity"

The following is a quote from his book Au delà de la verticale:

'The eagle doesn't hunt flies' said one of Tartarin's companions. One day, I had myself written to Robert Paragot : "When you have hunted lions, rabbits look meager. And I will quote "Robert Gabriel: "If I killed myself in the Calanques or in easy ground, I would not dare go out any more".

“Le Grec” lived to be 81 before he died in 2004.

http://www.summitpost.org/georges-livanos-le-grec/774008


Georges Livanos in CASSIN, once upon a time the 6th grade (1982)

"To Have or to Have not" Hemingway: a quotation from Georges's book:

"I will quote Gervasutti, as his judgement much more serene, is one of his peers, his rivals, although this competition always was marked with the highest fair-play: 'He is the man that never backs down once the goal is set. Comici and the Dimai brothers climb the Cima Grande di Laveredo North face in several instances, going up and coming down. Cassin would have stayed on the wall a week, but he would have climbed it. Other climbers are certainly more brilliant: so for example, Comici and Soldà. Comici climbs for pleasure, physical and spiritual, loosing often the result at stake. For Comici, climbing is an end. For Cassin, climbing is a mean. One should not judge Comici solely from his ascents ; many alpinists, in this case, would be superior to him. Cassin, in his case, must be judged from his record, and from this point of view, he fears no comparison." "About his lightning victories, the indestructible 'Veni, vidi, vici' has been used. It defines well the indelible iron mark of the Cassin's style. Caesar revised by Hollywood can be seen in the title of a movie full of gunfire of all calibers : 'I go, I shoot and I come back'. So then... Cassin a hero of swashbuckler novels, of western movies? D'Artagnan and Buffalo Bill? Cassin superman of comics? Why not?"

A few perspectives:
 Weekend climbing/warrior
 Public or primitive transport
 No sportsman
 Never back down
 Conquest
 Supermen
 Comics
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
I think the first Time I heard it was from cosgrove about that same time (81). We were in the valley catching up. He mentioned some then controversial climbs he'd done in Boulder/Eldo, climbs on the tip of the climbing pages back then, that I cannot now recall.
"They were okay, for sport climbs..." He said, laconically....,


Hmmmm, maybe that was later and I already knew the term....
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:33pm PT

In all honesty...

I personally have never given a fuk about the name game...

I just like to CLIMB...



EDITED:

there are routes that go with gear, routes that go with bolts, routes that go with both...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!...

It's ALL climbing!!!...







You want risk???...(Is a little OK??? A lot??? Somewhere in between???)...

Go SOLO!!!...

;-)



guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
Roy, Thank you for clarifying.

I was at ECHO recently and we were hanging at the "Left Flank" ... you know the less than vert part of ECHO. A young fellow was climbing one of the roots, (they all be sport cause the stone is choss) he was waring a Pack, Gloves, small rack and a big helmet....

I wanted to know what was up with his choice of attire, so I asked him.

"Whats with the gloves?"

"Practicing TRAD".. was his reply.

I was sort of puzzled so I asked about the pack.

"Why the pack?" I asked.

"You always wear a pack when your TRAD climbing" He answered.

So after this little encounter, I was thinking to myself, "Self, you need to get some gloves".....

WE need some photos....

Kronhoffers, Swami, Hexes, Stuff sack as chalk bag, long hair...
Kronhoffers, Swami, Hexes, Stuff sack as chalk bag, long hair...
Credit: guyman


Roy, I have one of the Nick also.... seems like all that boy did was sit around....

Credit: guyman


Hanging

Kris sans rope... nice pants.
Kris sans rope... nice pants.
Credit: guyman

If you Free Solo is that TRAD?

Even if your wearing tights?????

Tarbuster
Tarbuster
Credit: guyman

Or Cowboy Hat????





Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
Oh, you're just fuking around Locker. lol...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
RRider that's a great big help!
Same excerpt from Fiddler on the Roof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw&feature=youtu.be

Topol enlightens us:
"You may ask, how did this tradition get started?"
"I'll tell you … I DON'T KNOW … And because of our traditions, everyone knows who he is and what God expects him to do."

That's it in a nutshell.
Case closed, see you all at the races!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
Then there was last summer in Vedauwoo; Gal, Blitzo, Locker -"we're going sport climbing..."

Sport climbers?
Sport climbers?
Credit: Jaybro
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:39pm PT


I'll bet I wasn't the one that said "We're going SPORT climbing"...(Watch me be WRONG!!! LOL!!!)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Roy, I have one of the Nick also.... seems like all that boy did was sit around....


No guy that's ME. And you were on that trip! ~ 1978/1979.
Peak 11,440' remember?

When we got home, you and I choked down endless bongloads of Colombian and talked about auto racing and stuff.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Ok, yes, you know your old when it's all blurry and fuzzy...

Now that Im not on the Iphone... it does look like your former self... from the way back.

I do recall the 11.440 failure .... got washed off.

And the Colombian choke out...

unforgettable

throwpie

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Climbing starts at the bottom and goes up. Sport climbing starts at the top, goes down then up.
trr2ke

Trad climber
cookeville tn
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
How the devil does trad.
Credit: trr2ke
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
He told my wife he was the devil once.....
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
I do recall the 11.440 failure .... Got washed off.

Whew, thanks for reminding me why we bailed!
I couldn't quite remember; no self-respecting trad climber wants to remember his bad 'ole self as a pussy.

I think the first rap anchor was a number four stopper equalized to a tied off SMC horizontal. Remember how they made their lost arrows? It was like an angle that opened up into a flat blade tip.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
And Guy, not to disappoint, but per your comment about my health on the other thread: I'm not really doing any better arms wise, I just have new hips and by summer/fall I'm going to try to get out on the rock anyway I can. Gunning for 5.7D. Saddle up!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Hey Jay: who is that crusty old Lucifer-esque fart?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:11pm PT


"I'm going to try to get out on the rock anyway I can"...




...




"Amen and a Bag of Chips!!!"...


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Well-known sport climber, well yes, just climber really, Wolfgang Gullich engaging in a little trad behavior:



Everybody always talks about how dead guys were so nice and stuff; this guy was actually really nice. And not just nice. He comported himself with equanimity, strength, a touch of empathy and an all-around openness.

He was one of the first Europeans to visit us during that particular era in the early 80s, who really had some good trad chops under his belt.

Ron Fawcett also showed up around that time and boy was he a juggernaut; soloing up and down all kinds of stuff with the kind of momentum and energy that one rarely sees.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
Roy... good to know. 5.7D ... TM this Aug? Im down

I recall the day on 11,440... sunny skies, nice 5.9 climbing water formed grooves.... then around midday... the water started running down on US.

And the freaky raps, TRAD climbing demands poor rap anchors.

Went to some old place Al Bartlett "developed" back in the day... the anchors were piles of rocks! No lie.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Maybe when I get my act together and come out and stay with Kris we can noodle around on the crags somewhere!
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Roy, that evil looking man is none other than the Colonel, Frank Sanders.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
Thanks Mike!
I'm familiar with the name but I've never met him, accepting nightmares featuring Hell of course.

Hey kids, go check the OP, second post actually: I just put up our Trad-To-The-Bone™ poster child.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
And Mike was there when he told my wife he was the Devil.
It was on the phone, at devil's Tower, the day before his wedding.....
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Yes yes, this business of climbing with a pack on three pitch rock routes.
Any real TradDad™ knows there is only one circumstance where a pack is required, and it looks much like this:

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
Buster Poindexter!
Formerly David Johansen of the New York Dolls.

Hell yes Trad!!!



Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
TRAD

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Tarbuster???
Not so sure; I see quick draws!
A mint pair of RRs helps real things back in though:

TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Apr 9, 2013 - 03:15pm PT

@Tarbuster:

That last mag cover shot...

Is that J.Bouchard ?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Where are trad guys/gals to be found?
Indubitably, in places like this:






Ogling undocumented things like this:

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 9, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
With Trad poster children like the one in the OP out on the cliffs, I guess the problem with overcrowded cliffs would soon disappear.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
hhahahahahaaahhhaha

Must go now and look at it again, just cuz it's so good for a laugh!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
@Tarbuster:
That last mag cover shot...
Is that J.Bouchard ?

That's what I remember.
So I'm going to give that a loose affirmative!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Hamish McInnes!!!!
TRAD


Peter Haan's brilliant photo manipulation

These are for sale BTW
Contact Haan (He's WAY Trad)
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 9, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Tarbuster thanks for the reply. This thread has become a supertopo tradition already. You're on fire. Keep it rolling! I'm learning and laughing all at the same time.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Roy, I'm not so sure about the dress code though. I know I was wearing lycra and tights a long time before I succumbed to sport climbing...

Credit: Rob Brown
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Tarbuster say: " the idea was to minimize taints."

Man, judging from those "Dolphin" brand short-shorts ya'll were all running back then, I'd bet there was a lot of taint getting flashed. Maximizing taints, as it were.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Oh Kris!
How can you even admit to such a thing!
I mean, really, sport climbing should be the only excuse for having ever worn Lycra.

Around 1989 at Hueco, Scott Franklin, a couple other regulars and I were all wearing black tights. Maybe even Kauk on that particular day. As though the low-key color choice and lots more cotton content was somehow hedging our bets; we were all looking at each other like the gig was up! Yet it was clear none of us really wanted to go all the way into the deep end of the pool with full value shimmering colors and stuff.

It's like saying fellatio isn't really having sex.
I mean really, is anybody who's had same-sex intercourse just a little bit gay?
skywalker

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
"What????" ...."You say the route goes left???" (looking around)..."I have a rack, I can go any damn way I want!!!"

S....
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
I must now go outside for some fresh air and pseudo-exercise. It's clear that I need it!
Get ready folks, when I get back it's going to be a full-scale blitzkrieg of hard man trad ass photo assault. Hard-Ass TradChicks too.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Yes Mr. Hiker, Lycra was the gateway drug to sport climbing.
Doesn't everybody get the outfit before they do the deed whatever it is?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
But before I go I have to cop to this wardrobe "taint" with full photographic evidence:
Around 1989 at Hueco, Scott Franklin, a couple other regulars and I were all wearing black tights. Maybe even Kauk on that particular day.

Geoff Wiegand at Hueco on the day in question:




Tarbuster, Hueco, black Lycra, a sport climb maybe called Secret Sharer?


Prolly' even evidence of hang doggin' right there;
Juss look how tight that cord is strung!
Can we say: "Taint"?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
I have nothing but respect for climbers who climb establish new routes ground up, never rest on gear, bolt only on stance, and generally push themselves to the limit without resorting to any form of aid when establishing free climbs. I would be OK with calling them trad climbers. Lots of Alpinists and Big Wall climbers could be called trad climbers

But every guy with a rack of cams seems to want to be that "trad" guy, and most of them aren't.

Especially irritating are those who throw the word around in relation to their activities on the rock while making style compromises that would have been scoffed at before trad was a style.


True Story -


Kevy, Camp 4, mid 80's : "Werner, are you a trad climber?"

Werner : "Huh?"

Kevy : "Are you a TRAD climber?"

Werner : "Am I a RAD climber?"

Kevy : "No", scratches the word TRAD in the Camp 4 dirt with a stick and points to it. "Are you a TRAD climber?"

Werner : "What's that?"


Good question


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
We are just pretending like we know what it is Kevin.
It's all posturing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
But please don't confuse this juggernaut I'm working here with any kind of real-world rationality.

Just to get the tone back on track:

Trad is jeans, no pads, old-school highballing!
That AssHoleRoy galloping White Rastafarian:

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
You will have to pry my trad lycra out of my cold dead hands... But perhaps the lightning bolt gramiccis will pass muster in this tough crowd?

Kris Solem climbing Sexie Sadie
Kris Solem climbing Sexie Sadie
Credit: Charlie Crist
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Those look like pajamas.
I don't care if Grammicci made them!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Yeah well there's a good chance I slept in them the night before...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
That's right punky boys!
Trad climbers wear manly blue jeans.

Tarbuster soloing Butterfly in proper MANLY trad attire:
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!



trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad trad
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
I am going to go outside now, step into the 11°F air, spit into the snow ...
And punch out some sort of wildlife which exceeds my mass by 3X
We got MOOSE around here ya know.

(I might have to settle for staring down the neighborhood fox)
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Yeah well there's a good chance I slept in them the night before...

That's pretty trad, ain't it?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
We don't have Mooses, but have these blue foxes around here. The amazing thing about them is that they always look like they just came out of a beauty salon, with perfect hair. Not much like trad climbers, eh?

A Moose is an impressive creature. I saw one up close and personal on the Minnesota/Canada border once. It was a whole lot more than 3X my body mass!

Nice pic on Butterfly. That butt shot in pinstripe lycra (custom made by 29 Palms veterinarian Ken Gohegan) Guyzo posted upthread is also on that route.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Leap in the 80s


Los Brazos Peak


3rd pillar


Higher Cathedral Rock


Fairview
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Could be....

My Mom on the sharp end

Mona Stahl &#40;Wolfe&#41; @ Big Rock
Mona Stahl (Wolfe) @ Big Rock
Credit: StahlBro
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
I think we can finally condense the meaning into six simple words.
Definition:
Trad Climber: "What they did 30 years ago"
You got a bad attitude Dr. F!
Though you're probably not far off the mark; one might make the argument that's what this whole site is about ...
So the schoolin' will continue.

Tuolumne Tradster:
I really like the rock portraiture in that Higher Cathedral shot!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Trad to the Bone, a good deal more than 30 years ago:

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
I see the thread topic is What is Trad????????

Judging by the golden moldy posts your title would be more accurate if it read, What was Trad??


Eh, Maybe not, you know the category Trad didn't exist before sport Climbing!!

What is Trad Now??
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
What is Trad??

heheh...a grubby tape gloved hand reaching for an itch in a crack.

Sometimes it's the rock, sometimes its in one's pants...!

Tape and chalk optional and dependent on style choice - hee hee

Cheers

LS
BrassNuts

Trad climber
Save your a_s, reach for the brass...
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
What is Trad? Climbing before definitions...
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
Thanks Tar man!

Stoner's Hwy


E Buttress El Cap


The Line
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 12:00am PT
I can't be trad. Thanks, Dr. F. (I haven't been in the climbing world long enough).
I can be Trad. Thanks, Lady Scarlett!
Oh, my. I'm in a quandary. ;-)

Always love your pics, T Tradster.
Nick

climber
portland, Oregon
Apr 10, 2013 - 12:06am PT
Credit: Nick
And Guy you slept with Max in your bag because it was cold at night. Damn, even though we didn't get up anything, it was a good trip.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:10am PT
Dr.F ... ditto!
'Love you man don't ever forget it.
You have a valid point in fact; best illustrated by the following question from Dingus.

Dingus asked:
What is Trad Now??

Best guess answer: a range of things, dependent upon whom you talk to and what locality you are in when you ask the question.
It is in flux.
Likey it ranges from what it was 30 years ago all the way to sport climbing on gear (headpointing).

10 years ago a twentysomething climber told me he was going to get into "hard trad" in Eldo: he was referring to head pointing.
But I don't even think he recognized that distinction.

Any posturing you see coming from me is a combination of goofing off to the max plus defining it as it originally existed at the end of the 70s just before sport climbers coined the term.

As I said way up thread: what the hell do I know?
I'm counting on all of you to help answer the question!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:14am PT
No we're t rad. ;p
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:18am PT
Help! All my friends who exclusively sportclimb call me a boulderer, my friends who exclusively boulder call me a trad climber, & my friends who exclusively only place their own protection call me a sportclimber. I'm so confused, it's like puberty all over without the high school counsellor to help explain that everyone has pimples.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:23am PT
Credit: drljefe

Trad? I'll tell ya.
Climbing a route rated 5.9+ in 1957 by Kamps, Rearick, and Herbert.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:29am PT
What is trad now?


Something like this might be fitting here:

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:30am PT
perspectives

on the evolution of the endeavor we call climbing

we are not done yet.

the individual eventually ages and no longer can climb the rock of ages

but the act is eternal and finds it's expression on any level.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:34am PT
What is Trad Now??

Trad should be now what it was then, because that's what tradition is.

If it isn't what it was then, it shouldn't be called trad, because that causes an important and meaningful thing to lose its meaning and importance.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:34am PT
Bingo!

The term is essentially an anachronism at this point, [or at risk of becoming one] because it is absorbing things like head pointing.
Yet, lots of young climbers can totally rip it up exactly the way I defined it in the OP.

But they get there by doing a whole lot of other stuff.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:35am PT
Dingus asks a good question.

I think I have an answer: Trad today, is Miles and Amy climbing FA's on the towers of Paine.


Nick... yes Max would help keep me warm.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:41am PT
Trad is yer mama. Really. Think about it.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:02am PT
Usage is really getting twisted around in some circles.

It's as though Miles and Amy are doing "old trad", while other climbers are doing "new trad" or postmodern trad if you like, which is pretty much head pointing. Perhaps that's why they just eschew the term altogether and call it "gear routes" ... a bigger category.

As Werner stated, things are always evolving that's for darned sure.
Usage does evolve and as Kevin noted sometimes things are just flat-out lost in the process.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:18am PT
Dingus Milquetoast helped underscore this perspective:

The redefinition of trad to 'climbing with a rack' is nearly finished. A few more of us old dogs will have to stop insisting on the archeological definition of trad....
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:20am PT
Trad
Climbing unbolted routes higher than half a ropelength?

Was trad once upon a time, what it is now known to have been? Eastern Europe. Elbsandstein. The Alps. America.

The institute of concept emptying

Edited:
Trad Riccardo Cassin and Georges Livanos style: Rock conquest
Trad Emilio Comici and Berndt Arnold style: Rock care
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:27am PT
Usage does evolve and as Kevin noted sometimes things are just flat-out lost in the process.

Kevin is correct, I have watched climbers, climbing "TRAD" for want of a better word, just cranking up something like "spook book" and after getting the crux clean, get to the 5.8 part and yell "TAKE" just so they can look around.

They are clearly not playing the "FREE CLIMBING GAME" the same way we did.

I do admire the "HEAD POINT" folks. Some dudes did a variation on Airy Interlude where they went straight up the water grove (12.b/c)from the point where Airy goes right. These boys didn't use bolts but preferred to TR the heck out of it. They got in about 3 pieces and were willing to take huge falls, and they did do some big air time, to do a FA. I think its called Pulp Fiction.. or something like that. Kris knows.

I think that climbing like that, giving the stone respect, says a lot about who those guys are. They are TRAD.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:40am PT
I'm hearing you there Guy.

Essentially younger people are just so used to climbing so darned hard through sport climbing, that trad as we knew it puts them on ground way below their abilities.

So if they go the head point route in terms of style, they can maintain the hard climbing game to which they are accustomed and still use only trad gear and respect the rock.

This is exactly how all those hard El Capitan routes are done. And we know they do tremendous runouts on mank gear and lots of that on-site.

My sense is they don't care what it's called.
And when they want to they can on-site pretty darned hard stuff anyhow. I'm guessing they don't even call it trad: they just call it on-site climbing of a gear route. Or a section of a gear route.

They are free in a sense, as we were not because we were self-limiting, to use all these different tactics so they just don't see an either/or picture.

It's like a kaleidoscope now and they grab whatever they need in the moment.

Their perspective is completely different so their entire sense of terminology may be rendering the old term unnecessary.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:51am PT
I think a good way to try to characterize the difference is that we are linear thinkers and they are not.

Another way to say it might be: our conceptual framework is two-dimensional and theirs is three-dimensional.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:18am PT
Trad as we knew it is perhaps nearly irrelevant.
A historical artifact or in the process of becoming such. And lost on many; as in not even present in their conceptual framework.

I can only speak authoritatively as to what it WAS.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:21am PT
I'm guessing they don't even call it trad: they just call it on-site climbing of a gear route. Or a section of a gear route.

That's all most of my friends really pride themselves on in the end. Onsight, flash or red point. Onsight being the obvious; first time, no beta, no hangs. Flash being; the latter but with beta, and red point being; having climbed the route previously and getting it clean on lead. Which is why i don't get headpoint, because it's just a redpoint.


I think you are right though roy. Being as the original term meant traditional, new school gearheads should instead refer to themselves as T-RAD climbers.. ;)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:28am PT
Trying to think in dimensions (gliding scales):

Rock conquest/Power - Rock care/Ethics

Heroism/Duty - Play/Having fun

Exploration - Repetition
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:42am PT
Which is why i don't get headpoint, because it's just a redpoint.

I'm glad you asked that Mike.
It is a red point, but of a route with minimal or no alteration to the rock , and not just a crack you can sew up.

The term head point really meant: sport climbing tactics except bolts are out. So it's mainly to do with how the route was constructed.

It's a British term. It may never have caught on in America I wouldn't know. I'm suspecting it hasn't. In this regard you are correct: red point of a gear route.

The reason the term developed as HEAD POINT was because the terrain, left unbolted, was generally known to be quite dangerous. So doing it with what little gear was available, being constrained by gaps in available gear, was a HEADY thing to do, even in red POINT fashion. Crucial point: almost always requiring prior work on top rope before the red point.

How's that?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:50am PT
Good explanation Roy, thanks.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:57am PT
The first HEAD POINT route I encountered was done in Joshua Tree by British guys. Way back in the late 80s. It actually had a couple of bolts, and some gear, but not really enough of either. So you wired it out on top rope so that your prior knowledge of the unprotected areas could pull you through.

It was a new paradigm. Fairly creative really. Of course it makes more sense when there are no added bolts because it's actually about conservation. It's like a sustained route where you find yourself soloing here and there in different places. Working the moves on top rope gives you the confidence to bridge those gaps.

We did lots of on-site climbing this way too, usually not as hard.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:06am PT
So picture the modern El Capitan free ascents. When working from the ground up, they basically gas it between bits of good gear and old tat; maybe the first time up a section they hang here and there when there is gear, after a big run out.

They know they're not "allowed" to be throwing bolts in on established aid climbs. Maybe they even do a little bit of aid to get above the section that they need to top rope. Lots of times they flat-out lower from the top of El Capitan to work whole sections and learn these gaps between the available gear and old fixed aid junk.

It's a real mix of strategies to figure out how to climb what is there and protect only with natural placements and what was left by the old aid ascents in terms of fixed gear.

This is why I say it's like HEAD POINT.
They are only using what the rock and the old fixed placements allow. Lots of big runouts. It ain't sport climbing by any means. But it sure as hell isn't what I described in the OP. I'm not saying it should be.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:23am PT
Moving on, this is why I'm suggesting modern climbers don't have the same conceptual framework. They have always known, by virtue of their having grown up with sport climbing, that hanging and working and even top roping are completely legitimate options prior to a clean ascent.

So when it comes to "gear routes", they're growing up with some knowledge perhaps about how these big routes on El Capitan are freed. All these tactics at their disposal. It just wouldn't occur to them not to hang and rest when they need to. They're just working a route as usual.

Our whole idea of never grabbing protection was actually fairly artificial if you think about it. It was self-imposed limitation, as a matter of style. In contrast, they have no self-imposed limitations and they just climb as hard as they can, hang when needed, until they can red point something. That much they understand very well: the value of a red point.

Their heroes are freeing these big walls with the same tactics. Why would they play some game of regression concerning how hard climbing is done, whether by bolt or gear where protection is concerned?

In essence this is what traditional free climbing would be asking of them. Hardly anyone is around to suggest they should be doing it any other way by now. Nevertheless, they know what a clean ascent feels like. They just don't use that modality as a way to progress.

Completely different conceptual framework! And not limited by this silly set of rules that we used to perform under. TRAD climbing would seem ARTIFICIAL to them. It's all about how you get the clean ascent. This is the big distinction between TRAD CLIMBING and MODERN FREE CLIMBING.

There is no modern trad climbing. Unless, you take it as having been redefined, essentially in the HEAD POINT fashion. Saves the rock from unwanted bolts, but by different means and through a different set of limiters than we allowed ourselves in the TRAD ERA.

They figure it out anyway they can. We figured it out with some strict maxims in place: no grabbing gear on a free climb. No rehearsing a free climb. Hang dogging, resting on gear, was not part of the TRAD ETHOS. A much slower way to progress up through the grades.

HANG DOGGING of GEAR ROUTES paved the way for SPORT CLIMBING. Eventually the term hang dogging fell away completely because it was essentially a term of scorn. "WORKING a ROUTE" replaced it. So the value judgment peeled away, probably the very first of the leaves to fall off of the TREE of the TRAD ETHOS. Bit by bit, over 30 years the concepts of negativity which guarded the trad ethos have diminished both in the lexicon and in relevance.

This is how it presumably came to be diminished in similar ways with other parameters that guarded the trad ethos. NOW, OLD TRAD can be seen to have been replaced with MODERN TRAD, or HARD TRAD for lack of any consistent terms I'm aware of in the culture.

Essentially the new generation gets the idea of minimal damage to the rock; they definitely get the idea of a clean ascent, but they are using their own familiar tactics in order to achieve these two goals. GOALS which BOTH generations SHARE in COMMNON.

Here's the kicker: I'm going to take a crack at it and say that it was AID CLIMBING ethical preservation that may have played a part. "No adding bolts to existing aid routes" was something the new generation heard loud and clear. Isn't that perhaps ironic! It wasn't some maxim handed down from some crusty old trad free climber. Essentially they redefined the game as it exists outside of bolted climbing, and using their own tactics. "We'll learn to save the rock, but were going to climb at our own standard and use our own tactics to do it". BRAVO!

DINGUS MCGEE: how's that for a grab at characterizing your question: WHAT IS TRAD NOW?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 10, 2013 - 08:19am PT
So the climbing on gear aspect of the sport would have have moved on to higher grades a lot quicker without the silly constraints of not not working moves on gear, aka yo yo ing? yep, good bye early 80s.


I agree that what is being called trad climbing these days has little to with ground-up ethics of the past.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 08:50am PT
Tarbuster,

Nothing truer could be said:

There is no modern trad climbing

Roy, thanks for all the examples, thinking and writing you have nurtured into this elucidation of what a lot ST users fail to see about their limited view of this topic!!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:00am PT
Here is the challenge I like:

in Dean Flemmings article in Ascent about this same topic he concludes:


...the type of equipment that is needed to complete the climb.


To some extent we can figure out how a group is going to climb by seeing what equipment they bring to the crag. But sometimes seeing their gear selection leads to ambiguous or uncertain forecasting of what they are up to. I like this confusion.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:07am PT
Elucidate away....i'm going climbin. Heading to Cochise which means bolts interpersed with gear except for Abracadaver and a few others. Next week the Black Canyon which doesn't even have many fixed belay anchors.

Each area has been developed differently.....choose where you want to climb and deal accordingly.

My definition of the "modern trad climber" is that he/she is a generalist who can adapt to the myriad of different climbing styles and protection opportunities now available.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Patrick Compton,

agreed, the modern young "trad" climbers hangdog and work routes even at Vedauwoo. Bob Scarpelli is the local ethics horn blower of this bygone idea of "no hanging" for the area. When Bob is having a bad day?, he will often yell at some of these moderns, "Lower to the ground, Jesus Christ." The accosted climbers display a look like what the hell got into this guy??
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:16am PT
Now THAT'S funny.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:17am PT
donini,

are you a modern trad climber, or have you spoken too much?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:18am PT
Dingus,

Ha! I can picture that scene well.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:37am PT
When the term trad appeared, the style it referred to, by today's standards did involve "silly constraints" which slowed down the progress at the highest levels.

That was partially the point of it - beyond the awareness of limiting damage to the rock was the concept of saving routes for future generations by not "cheating" to accomplish a climb. Unclimbed routes at the highest level were thought to demand a strict amount of dues to be paid before they were awarded to a particular climber as a first ascent. This was most clear cut where rap bolting was concerned, but there was also an important mindset which put resting on gear to "work out" a route in the same forbidden category as placing a bolt to protect freeclimbing by using aid - whether off a hook on the lead or on rappel.

Sportclimbing's mindset of anything goes to get the protection in has bled into what might be called "modern trad" with the only difference being gear instead of bolts are being employed, and even that distinction is lost on routes labeled trad which utilize bolt protection placed with aid.

I think more than being about gear, bolts, or clean climbing ethics, trad was about style.
WBraun

climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:42am PT
Over indulgence of fixing the mind on such mundane topics as this will make you fail at the crux .....
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:46am PT
Isn't that why we have campfires, Werner?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:51am PT
Warbler,

So then, style is a silly constraint?

Analogous to using high-heeled shoes for walking.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:53am PT
It MIGHT make you fail, Werner.

It MIGHT help one of us mortals get our sh#t together somehow.

Slack, brother...
WBraun

climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:53am PT
Camp fire you're supposed to stare at it and watch flames and stay warm.

Clear your mind of all baggage.

Then go to sleep.

Modern climber goes to camp fire to get intoxicated with nonsense and fill mind to the brim with stupid.

Then next day Modern climber wakes up all stupid and stumbles incoherently and bewildered.

An internet forum is not camp fire. I don't see any logs on fire. :-)

Just see ...... :-)
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 10, 2013 - 11:02am PT
So then, style is a silly constraint?

Only if you think it is. Just seems to me that trad defines a certain specific style, the silly thing is how many traditional constraints are ignored by modern climbers who throw the word around.

Maybe you've made a point, Patrick -

Trad, like high heels, is what makes the walk sexy.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 10, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Tradition!

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
Kevin said:
Trad, like high heels, is what makes the walk sexy.

Made it sexy for you & I to be sure.

The constraints were artistic constraints and quite productive as well, towards producing a certain internal tonality which is not so easy to describe.

But if Werner would only go and grab another log for us, I'm confident I could nail it! (I've already done so in another thread; would it be hangdogging the discussion to post an excerpt ?! Heh).

When I say SILLY constraints, I mean only to address the perception of those constraints by climbers reared in the modern context.

Context has shifted dramatically.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Donini said:
My definition of the "modern trad climber" is that he/she is a generalist who can adapt to the myriad of different climbing styles and protection opportunities now available.

Yes!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
I am only pointing to how the change has taken place, and specifically not addressing it from a standpoint of value.

I can't credibly build an argument as to whether it is good or bad, productive or unproductive, because I find it difficult to straddle contexts.

It's easier to speak in terms of preference.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 10, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
I would prefer the opening sequence of the Open Book to be better protected.

I will never climb it because there are traditional principles involved which I cannot accept for fear of horrible, mutilating injury and the stigma, oh, the stigma, of failing.

Kudos to Royal.

F*#k the rest.

Nobody's constraining anybody.
MH2

climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
Trad can't exist in a world that needs that word. Henry Barber is one of the last survivors.

On headpointing: remember Cleveland in the Needles, and Gill in the Needles.

There is still "adventure climbing" but the terrain is shifting in a tidal wave of guidebooks, cell phones, etc.

In my own pointy head at least.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
I like Donini's take.

Edit- ^^ & MH2's
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
mouse from merced,

a 15 ft fall to solid ground or jaggers can do a lot damage to one, and so can that same type of fall/landing from a slack belay at the first placement. Having done the Open Book, I say as you kind of indicate "Let others feast on this, there are better climbs to do and they have the pro I like".
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Nobody's constraining anybody.

Voluntary constraints. Artistic, personal, stylistic, choice.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
...And my personal preference is for:
Trad Trad Trad Trad Trad Trad Trad...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Imposition of style upon others is not my bag.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Thanks all!
This is cool.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
But what is nowdays TRAD??

Gear is a pain in the Ass.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
My pussy hurts!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
Why does 'ground up first ascents without preplaced protection nor rehersal' own the word traditional?

Seriously.

Humans been cheating their way over obstacles since we dropped from the trees. Ladders and such.

It's arguable that direct aid precedes free climbing and is far, far more traditional.

Yet because Higgins penned an article, suddenly the 60s/70s crowd gets to own the word 'traditional?'

No.

Each generation will define that word for themselves. This is how its always been done. Its the very definition of traditional. So I'm sorry graybeards, but trad is climbing with a rack of gear, end of trad.

:-)

DMT
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Jeez, fingers & toes been here lots longer than ropes, ladders, and slides.

If a pred's chasin' a biped, he'd best not stop to place pro or he's a meal.

Seems like a worthy tradition, many things considered.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
"I consider mountain climbing an absolutely egocentric activity; I could therefore never understand why one would want to set up rules for it. "In the mountains, freedom rules" is an old poacher's saying. Whether and how I use artificial means is my business. To climb in the cleanest and smoothest way possible - that was my desire. How others climb is their business, and nobody else has the right to interfere. Most people abide by rules because they want to be accepted. I was only truly content when I succeeded in completing a climb the way I had envisioned it. Naturally, there is satisfaction when a climb is acclaimed by the experts, but basically, this was not as important to me as the recognition by my friends."

I think Anderl Heckmair's attitude is the attitude of the nobility among trad climbers.

Is the word "nobility" too value laden?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
'climbing in the cleanest and smoothest way possible' easily applies to sport climbing or bouldering as well, but in a different way.

The idea that trad is inherently more noble than other disciplines is laughable.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Let me share an experience from last summer that might have some relevance to this thread. An accomplished modern Frankenjura "sport climber", lets call him Felix, was visiting US with his family and wanted to experience climbing in Yosemite. My understanding is that he had red pointed most of the hardest routes at Frankenjura (mainly very steep to overhanging, bolt-protected, limestone pocket routes). He was particularly interested in A Separate Reality because of the iconic images of Wolfgang Gullich free soloing at the lip.



I agreed to meet him in Tuolumne for a weekend warmup before he would go to the valley for a try at SR. We started at S Flank of Daff where he easily flashed most of the routes on TR. Next we went to E Cottage Dome, where Felix proceeded to effortlessly red point Knobnoxious. No surprise, this route was well within his ability and similar to the sport climbs he is used to at Frankenjura.





So the next day we went over to Do of Fly (5.11C) on Puppy Dome where he could try a "Trad-style" route. Here's a sequence showing Felix leading Do or Fly, which he did in reasonably good style but not without resting on pro.







I didn't accompany him but the next day Felix went to Yosemite where he hooked up with climbers and had a go at SR. My understanding is that he climbed SR but did not red point it.

Felix is an awesome climber, well beyond anything that I accomplished at his age. On his next trip, I'm sure Felix will burn the place up. However, it was interesting that a 5.12/5.13 mainly "sport climber" was unable to on site, red point a trad climb a numerical grade below his ability.


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
I reckon you just know trad when you see it.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Marlow:

It doesn't need to be considered noble, or elevated.
But I wholeheartedly agree with what Anderl wrote.

It can still be practiced, yet no longer has a home in the culture of climbing at large.

As to trad climbing being dead: certainly as defined in the OP it is no longer relevant as a popsicle for the masses to succor. It never was for the masses. She's an old Indian with flaccid bosoms; barren. She's dying but she still speaks to those who lower their ear toward her withered pulse.

Opportunities to engage these chosen artistic constraints as defined by TRAD are obviously withering. No argument. Yet, like driving a model T down the frontage road of the freeway, it can still happen. It can certainly still happen in the mountains and there at a high standard.

In my premature dotage, it's all I have been doing for many years now. And this includes puttering about in the woods finding bits and pieces of rock which I've never seen, undocumented in any guidebooks and which I engage in exactly the way I did even before this stylistic imperative had a name.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
You know your sport climbing when:

You did not get lost on the approach.
The route is only half a rope length.
The line to get on a route has a Disneyland ticket taker at the base (easily could include Manure Pile).
Belayers are letting out rope to "soft catch" falls.
Climbers care about their helmet getting scratched.
Climber and belayer are endlessly discussing "lowering versus rapping".

fill in the rest


and a feel free to start: You know your TRAD climbing when"

RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:18pm PT

'climbing in the cleanest and smoothest way possible' easily applies to sport climbing or bouldering as well, but in a different way.

This is a great point, Style of movement has a great bearing today when compared with style of ascent compared to the past. I can only speak for myself but an ascent is much more satisfying if I feel in control of the movement & protection as opposed to hacking my way up, whether it is a gear,sport,boulder route. It is how I moved & climbed that is most important to me, not whether I had quickdraws or hexes or crashpads for pro.


It's funny how aid climbing is trad climbing where u entirely rely on equipment to ascend & free trad climbing is when you are cheating if u rest on the gear, lol. Stupid awesome rules.


Edit- ghoulwej I see a lot more lineups & congestion on 5.9 & under "trad" routes than 5.12 sport routes.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
So I'm sorry graybeards, but trad is climbing with a rack of gear, end of trad.

You may well be right. But there would be a certain irony in it for the greybeards. The last time there was an attempt to use equipment to define aspects of climbing was the Sierra Club's six-grade system, in which each grade was defined by the equipment a climber would need. Class five was piton-protected climbing, and of course that proved just a tad broad so we ended up with the unlovely "decimal" system.

In retrospect, trying to define the difficulty of a route by specifying the equipment used on it as opposed to an evaluation of the route's intrinsic challenges is absurd, and of course the system and its definitions disappeared, leaving behind the pointless units digit 5 in front of our difficulty ratings.

Defining trad simply in terms of equipment used misses so many aspects of trad that, as you say, it could well contribute to the end of the type of climbing trad originally referred to.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
RyanD
Maybe those routes aren't TRAD anymore?

East Wall LLeap... Maybe thats now "sport"



Shite! That makes me a sport climber...


Whatever I don't care, I just love moving over stone.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
All of the various types of climbing (including crack climbing like SR) require some acquired skill-sets to make them look effortless, skills some sport climber from Europe may not have had the opportunity to learn.

I suspect if you wish to hone your climbing skills in every faucet (the generalist) you will be somewhat scattered and get less training in the single area where your skill-sets and aptitudes are best matched. Okay, maybe there is nothing you can excel at doing, so have fun on those bold runouts. Whops, it takes a skill-set to do that? Or lack of a brain and youth?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Four dimensions of rock climbing (gliding scales) to consider:

Relation to rock: Rock conquest (power) - Rock care (ethics)
Social context: Heroism/duty - Play/Having fun
Degree of adventure: Exploration - Repetition
Degree of equipment: Technical climbing - Free solo
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
rgold,

belay plate -- trad climber?


grigri -- sport climber


only quickdraws on harness -- sport climber == is face climbing in the Needles Sport



shoes and chalk bag -- boulderer, soloist, exhibitionist


crash pad -- boulderer or insomniac sleep seeking person.


RP nuts -- aid climber or Devils Tower seam climbing


RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Ghoulwej, good point. Maybe they aren't trad anymore?? I'm with u on the moving over stone part for sure. Really having a good time pontificating here tho!


As for the generalist, in this day & age I think that's where it's at- although by your definition dingus u separated runouts from the generalists arsenal, why is that? A true generalist would be more likely well rounded at a lower grade limit but comfortable with all types of climbing on various stone: 5.10 gear/5.10 sport/ 5.10 R/ V10 boulder on granite/sandstone/limestone & all it's versions of choss :-)

Tarbuster, I'm glad u see the value in the term gear climb. It makes a lot of sense to me, especially since gear has changed so much since the early 70's golden era of free climbing where climbers like me were just a microcosm on the blotter on my daddy's tongue.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
While many of you guys are busy kicking the corpse,
Don't get out your coffin nails just yet as I have this one little passage to post.

It's extracted from another huge discussion we've had here on the forum, wherein I try to describe my preference for old-school trad climbing over sport climbing. And in the context of this discussion, also over the stylistic constraints circumscribed by the term gear routes, also to include head pointing or modern trad as well.

Put on your beer goggles!
Here goes an effort at describing the inherent tonality of the internal experience rendered by climbing trad, or in a nutshell to answer the simple question, why is trad good for us?

I tend to favor traditional climbing. For me there is a certain tension to the energy afforded by on-site ground-up climbing. Largo's "experiential voltage" if you will. Given my background and experience, the majority of sport climbs under the 5.12 grade tend to have too many bolts, the outcome is predictable and the exercise feels repetitive, such that the experience of leading the route lacks a certain zest.

Done from the ground up and on sight, a successfully achieved ascent has a very palatable internal energetic feel. The construct of a sport climb, which encompasses things like rappelling and succinct prior knowledge, a fairly sanitized and very safe protection scheme, and in a subtle way, yes even the communal lore of its construction -for me, these things sever the energetic tension of the route. We typically know how a route was originally done and I say that does matter. In ground-up style climbing, there is an aspect of emulation at play which is quite valuable.

When Werner says the route has a soul he's describing that energetic tension that exists for the route as a possibility. I get it more as a collusion of my internal striving with the canvas which the route represents. So for me it's a relationship and I like for that energy to be as fresh and whole as possible and ground-up climbing, whether I'm doing the first ascent or following in the footsteps of a pre-established ascent, the ground up traditional style effort does the best job of retaining that essence, best characterized as a completeness and a continuity, like an independent living thing.

So that's my sense of the peculiarly distinct internal reward conferred through trad climbing. It is something that should not be overrun. It's an artistic imperative that has fewer and fewer voices and outlets in our urbanized, formalized society. Spontaneous, fluid improvisation : we need to keep that heart alive and beating.

Cheers,
Roy
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
It's funny how aid climbing is trad climbing where u entirely rely on equipment to ascend & free trad climbing is when you are cheating if u rest on the gear, lol. Stupid awesome rules.

Good point. How does this one work?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Anyone remember what that Huber guy said about some 5.13 crack pitch on the Salathe?

"I am not a very good crack climber, but I have power to waste..."
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
5.10 gear/5.10 sport/ 5.10 R/ V10 boulder

I wish v10 was as easy as 5.10!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Ryan D,

Runouts?? Does wanting anyone else to do your runouts make you more of a man
of more of a lucky fool. "Runouts" kind of a sideline criteria to an aspect of TRAD climbing to make some feel superior, but not any test one must pass to have fun climbing and be a good climber.

IN the end you do what you HAVE to do and tell your story if you must, but hopefully you keep the pride in you big head.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
^^^* hahaha dinguses are funny.

Edit-btw I don't climb v10, just having fun here as per the OP's request.
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
"energetic tension"....yeah, that explains exactly what if feels like when you spy some unknown (to you) crack in the back country that looks like a nice steep 5.8 or 5.9 hand crack...then, when you get up there, it is either a wyde swimfest or a bottoming, no protection a-taking horror show that either brings out the worst or the best in you (sometimes both, and we may be talking orifices).

Now, in my mind, that's trad, and I'm sure that a lot of the "trad" enthusiasts around here can relate to that scenario better than I can.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
I remember that Huber quote Mr. Solem!
Too funny. You knew there was a sea change close at hand.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Credit: GhoulweJ
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
Credit: GhoulweJ


What about Velcro Wall climbing?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Tarbuster,

Not one to challenge your feelings. But sport climbing is about explosive moves and precise hits. Somethings I very seldom see while fuc*ing with the gear in trad climbing trying to keep bone locks in the cracks--endurance?
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Dingus,
Do you think Sport Climbs typicaly have more predictable pro?
I ask because that sorta comes to my mind when I try to seperate the 2.

--please do not read this as an attack/insult on sport climbing--

In reality, I think even the Tradest of Trad do sport climb and may even secretly like it ;)

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Dingus McGee:

What you are doing is drawing a distinction and a very apt one at that. I am not proposing trad climbing to the exclusion of sport climbing. I am trying to characterize what trad climbing feels like at its best, granted not as succinctly as you just characterized sport climbing, so good on you for brevity as well!

I like what you wrote about the explosive moves and precise hits. I have sport climbed and I have established a hand full of sport climbs, such that I know that you nailed it.

In the end I have always been a live and let live character. For me, it's not about which is better or which should win out over the other in terms of the playing field at large, it's about individuated value within the rainbow of potential human pursuits. I'm into understanding how things fit together and how people make choices. That's my tact.

In that piece I attempted to describe how I value trad climbing and how it can have intrinsic value, albeit at the margins, within the alphabet soup of all of these styles and approaches.

Happy Climbing,
Roy
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
GhoulweJ,

Yes, but not without qualification. I am assuming you put the draws on the route if you want them. Even then some pieces can be so difficult to clip I have added a longer runner or (rarely) skipped the impossible clip. In sport climbing circles you can change the bolt location without near as much flack or consent like you need in Trad circles. But yes in trad climbing the pro takes a great deal more time.

Almost all Trad climbing is poor training for most sport climbing. If a trad climber comes to the sport cliff with an outdoor experience of slabs and crack climbing he most likely has not trained the muscle set necessary for sport climbing but if he strengthens at the gym he most likely will have far better foot work than those with only gym training for steep sport. Most Real rock takes good footwork.

So when I bring a trad climber to a sport cliff, I make adjustments to my choice of climbs to accommodate their skill-set. And yes, Scarpelli and I go sport climbing and mostly have a great time. By the way, Bob hates the word "trad", he does both.

added later: In sport climbing you could tape up the draw of a hard clip (closer) to your line to make the clip doable and in a sport group most would not challenge the redpoint you make doing the pro this way.



GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Fair enough.



A sign your TRAD climbing:

Credit: GhoulweJ
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 10, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
I would question whether aid is really trad climbing, I know lots of people consider it to be, along with ice climbing, alpine climbing and mountaineering. But in refining the meaning of trad climbing, the important thing in my mind is the foundation or the circumstances on which the term was born.

Trad was the term that climbers latched on to as an antonym to sport climbing, and sport climbing is free climbing on rock with rappel placed bolts. The original intent of the term Trad was to acknowledge the essential difference between establishing a free climb ground up with no aid and creating one top down with rappel placed bolts. Seems to me trad means free climbing with protection placed on lead, and no aid employed to place pro or rest. Free climbing. On rock.

The political dynamics at play in the era where trad was born gave trad style a kind of rugged individualist, adventurous and dangerous feel, sexy even. I think a lot of climbers across the spectrum, aid climbers included, liked that aura and adopted it to their pursuit.

This is the reasons the term bugs so much - it is used throughout the climbing spectrum - to describe gear, style, climbers, routes - but the more disciplines, styles and methods it is used to describe, the murkier its meaning becomes.


With all the sh#t talk climbers engage in and all the ever evolving vernacular associated with climbing, you'd think there would be better vocabulary to use when talking climbing. It's an odd dynamic - endless humorous and silly terms to describe moves, climbing related tools, nick names galore, food, booze, drugs, music, specific terms for rock features - but the only words we can seem to use to succinctly describe the many facets of free climbing are either trad or sport.

"Stupid Americans"

 WB
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 10, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Tarbuster, kick ass writing on that quote there. I particularly like the question "why is trad climbing good for us?" Very cool.




Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
Would somebody please go get Reinhardt Messner to put this to bed?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Thank you for this Kevin,
Seems to me trad means free climbing with protection placed on lead, and no aid employed to place pro or rest.
Free climbing. On rock.

After all the title of this thread is: "What Is Trad?"
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Yes yes, perhaps we've morphed it into "What Was Trad?"

But I ain't given' up the ghost just yet!
Walt Shipley stance drilling at the end of the 80s:

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
Two shots from the masterpiece CLIMB!
By Bob Godfrey and Dudley Chelton

Molly Higgins, Green Spur, Eldorado Canyon!
Headband, knickers, EBs, nuts … TRAD!!!





Connie Hillard, Outer Space, The Bastille, Eldorado Canyon:

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
Claude Fiddler, Fairview Dome:

Come on people, can we really get much more TRAD than this ?????
Headband, torn shirt, EB's, swami ...


Apologies for lack of photo attribution
I stole it from the Internet
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Bachar, Kauk, Pettigrew, Braun !!!


Paul Sibley photo care of Werner Braun?

I'm guessing they are all really high!
Mama didn't raise no dummy.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Yabo Trippin'


photomanipulation by Blitzo
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Bridwell, blazing on Henley Quits:


photo Peter Haan?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Bob Finn, Upper Green Spur, Eldo ... Yeah Baby!

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
Joshua Tree Crew, 1978!
I was supposed to be in this photo darn it!
Got waylaid at my hairdressing appointment ...


photo Brian Rennie, from a FIVE TEN advertisement
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 10, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
That's not me in the Eldo photo upthread - that's Bachar.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Thanks!
Correction made.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
The Bird!


photo Dave Diegelman
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
Breakfast of Champions!
Our Man in uniform:


photomanipulation BVB



A few really keen photo manips from Ray Olson:

Shipley!



Hatten!



Cilley!

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 10, 2013 - 06:35pm PT

Cool photo's!!!...

GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
After a day of "trad new routing in the desert" antics.
Zip line with a 12 gauge shooting targets in the desert while zipping. Sorta "sporty trad".

Credit: GhoulweJ
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
Okay Chillun's … I gotta take umbrage here with some of our findings.
Namely this idea that … "TRAD IS DEAD" … Not as long as I'm alive it ain't dead. Hear me ROAR!!!

Werner was wondering the same:
(don't believe for a second he doesn't care about this stuff … He lives for it)










So .... I was out for a short skinny ski yesterday where I do my best thinkin' :





I'm going to lay out some schoolin’ for some of you young pup Trad Aspirants.



TARBOUSSIER SCHOOLIN' SESH: HOW TO BE TRAD !!!



SIMPLE.

Essentially you Gotta Live, Breathe, Eat, & Shitt TRAD.






any of you hot trad chix wanna check out the scar from my recent hip replacement go right ahead!










ANY QUESTIONS ????????
I didn't think so.




















That is all.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 10, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Ricky and Largo,
AMBASSADORS of TRAD!


photo Richard Harrison




Mark Wilford ... TRAD BAD BOY ... spotted by Malcolm Daly:








Jack Bruce of Cream,
Trad? What is trad without a little psychedelia?


GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
Awesome trad work with signage.
Trad is not dead. Might change but not dead UNLESS your definition of TRAD is the 1970's. If thats the case then its dieing/dead.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Do your back reading.
We had the patient on the table late last night & all through morning.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Apr 10, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
This dude is Trad in my book...note Tecate holder equipped walker

moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 10, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#298265
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
Eat lightning and crap thunder!
I had a walker with a chalk bag attached for my beer holder.


Sheridan understood a lot about trad culture, pulling no punches:



StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
Trad bouldering prep

Credit: StahlBro
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Apr 10, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Trad rappel device...
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 10, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Trad and fashion!

photo not found
Missing photo ID#274565
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
Me going for a Trad ascent of Lovers Leap.... It was snowing... and cold.

Credit: GhoulweJ
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
My friend made an interesting observation the other day.

You know how people look at 'trad' climbing as "oh, that's dangerous, I don't do that 'trad' stuff." Pretty soon that will be ROCK CLIMBING outdoors.

"Yeah, I am a climber. You too? Cool! Oh no I don't do that Outdoor stuff, do you? Wow isn't that dangerous? I tried it wasn't fun."
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
My Trad Thanksgiving on Dinner Ledge

Credit: GhoulweJ
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
G Davis: don't kid yourself, we are there now!
Long live the crusty dusty burned-out fart filled cliff groping trad masters.

Warbler has me convinced that trad only refers to rockclimbing, not so much mountaineering, alpinism and nailing. I think he has a point. But given the guidelines we've all agreed upon as listed in the OP, our trad manifesto, stubbornness can overrule any categorical imperative.

So what, if we say it's trad, it's trad right?


Wanda Rutkiewicz, one of the most superlative trad women of all time:



The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Mountaineering has it's traditions to be sure, but they don't deserve to be called trad.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
Tar,
Your pictures of yor really make your point.

There was an experience in an era that will not be relived.

Not to say the future isn't fantastic, but it is definitely not the same "as then" and never will be (heck, the equipment alone makes that change).

Keep 'em coming!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
Trad can mean a discipline and an approach, IMO. So both you and warb are right! yay!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
Your picture of yor really make your point.
To which picture are you referring please? Cheers!

------------------------------------------------

Kevin I believe you are correct: if we are going to try to pin down terms and delimit what they circumscribe, then your statement:

Trad was the term that climbers latched on to as an antonym to sport climbing

... has to be taken as fairly definitive. And to flesh that out a bit further, upthread somebody mentioned that this coinage of the term really came from Higgins in the article he published called, what was it? Tradsters and Radsters? I remember this article. We could go get it off his site easily. It was specifically about rockclimbing styles. The idea that sport climbers gave us our label might still be so, but Higgins reinforced it and it specifically referred to free climbing tactics on rock.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Typo, I meant to type "pictures".
I corrected my post.

To answer, All of Them.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Yes it's definitely a space in time isn't it.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
I think the reason people lump alpinism and big walls into it is that sport climbing was a big break from the ground up ethos to which all other forms of climbing strongly followed.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Tar, I agree.
It was climbing....
Then a type of climbing came along that was so contrary to many principles of the current climbing of the times, it needed a new name, Sport Climbing.

Hard to believe that it eventually meant renaming what was just climbing to Trad.

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
Trad jetboil

Credit: Jaybro
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
Trad curricula
Credit: Jaybro
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
And people are still doing it!

Here's a craggy thing Goat Boy, Stich and I developed a couple years ago.
Three routes and one or two bolts, all from the bottom, two 5.7D & a 5.6... Sure it's Choss, although they didn't think so on the Choss thread!

People have climbed on it before, found a super old rusty pin on an adjacent line, but that was it.
New to us at least which is all I care about: we didn't even name the things, it's just about the feeling.

Trad lives!




Tarbuster, Bolt Kit on left hip, hat on head:




Drilling the first bolt and maybe only bolt, I don't remember if there's a second:




Tim Stich:




The middle line was naturally protective face, no bolts, one of my favorite things!






Top out:





I've done three other lines; one with another partner on viciously loose rock, and soloed a few things.

TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 10, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
I'm a bit unclear, are you saying you enjoy trad climbing?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha.
Just a tad!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Trad curricula
Hey Jay: Grand County Middle School trad curricula!
Tell us a story won't you?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
GhoulweJ said:
Hard to believe that it eventually meant renaming what was just climbing to Trad.
You just reminded me; way back when that's exactly what I thought!

I don't have an ax to grind concerning sport climbing: I think a lot of it is absolutely magnificent, but the renaming thing was odd. Even for sport climbing to get its own name seemed out of sorts. Then trad got its own name which just felt awkward. Oh well. In the end it's all about the activity and not the label, as so many have asserted.

Badges? We don't need no stinking Badges!
Fogarty

climber
BITD
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Trad? Funny on me I herd this trad thing and 30 years of climbing and more at this time I asked a friend what is this trad thing? my friend told me it is traditional climbing non sport. My response to this was is that just climbing?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 12:09am PT
And that reminds me of the shape of things once upon a time in terms of nomenclature.

We already had: mountaineering, alpinism, super alpinism, ice climbing, free climbing, direct aid a.k.a. aid climbing a.k.a. wall climbing a.k.a. nailing, free climbing, long free routes, cragging and so forth. Should all of that be subsumed under the umbrella of TRAD. No, sport climbing merely needed to be added to the list. And if it wasn't in fact all grouped under the umbrella of trad, neither did frequently made need to be called trad.

Let's some of us go over to Higgins' site and read that piece!
What say you! Let's slip into our loafers, don cardigans, grab our jugs of port, spectacles, mechanical pencils, legal pads and light out for the source of all of this hullabaloo.

If trad is dead, we may as well go visit the hatchery.
Werner can stand by tending our mortal wounds, eventually to pull us from the sludge of our compulsive drudgery. Yeah.
WHAT SAY YOU!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:30am PT
It is all just climbing in the end, and worthy of respect for the most part. It is a choice of aesthectics everyone makes each time out. It is about your own values. Ground up/onsite. Honesty in style and integrity in action.

Trad is a balance of minimal impact and acceptable risk. It values adventure and dealing with what the rock gives you, moment to moment. It is about good and bad judgement. It is about understanding and accepting the implicaitons of your decisions. Trad is about doubt. If you can't deal, go somewhere else or come back when you can.

It is about not taking yourself too seriously....ever.

"So let's save the dragon; and in the future let's follow the road that past climbers marked out. I'm convinced it's still the right one."

Reinhold Messner

Trad is saving the dragon ;-)
Paco

Trad climber
Montana
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:56am PT
"What is Trad??????" <br/>
 <br/>
Weight.  Trad is weight.
"What is Trad??????"

Weight. Trad is weight.
Credit: Paco

Trad is weight.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 02:03am PT
good bet if you remember this when it came out, you were climbing trad:

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 11, 2013 - 02:07am PT
Smokin' only the best.

Weed.

If that's what he said it was...

Who ya gonna trade with, Trad?

Climbin' only the best lines

Without a clip

And with a belay from hip.

Bad-dip, bad-dip.

What a trip!

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 11, 2013 - 02:11am PT
One of the very best live groups ever! I saw them at the Bottom Line in NYC about the same time as I was falling in love with climbing, that would be around 1975. That show was a complete mind f*ck.

FACT: Mick Gillette = best lead trumpet player ever anywhere anytime.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 02:16am PT
Trad lead of Drunkard's Delight - 'Gunks - shorts, EB's, tied slings, a set of stoppers, a set of hexes...


modern lead of same climb, same place:

photo credit at rockclimbing.com...
yoga pants, Mythos, helmet, complete set of cams, sewn slings, tats...

both Trad?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 11, 2013 - 04:07am PT

Tough call Ed,

But if the tradsters are against yoga pants on the trad betty's nowadays then count me out.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 11, 2013 - 06:40am PT
Note the shoes hanging on the butt in the old gunks photo. We almost always hiked along the ridge (eating blueberries) either back to the uberfall or to an easy downclimb chimny past high E. Now they rap from those retro bolted anchors.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 11, 2013 - 07:11am PT
It's still just climbing to me. Ice , alpine, multi pitch tard, single pitch tard, aid, ground up FA's, top done FA's, sport. Whatever. it's all climbing. I do not praticulary trust tard climbers whos pantys are so much in a bunch that they feel the need to constantly bash spurt climbers. Spurt climbers on the other hand are at least honest about why they don't trad climb. Man, thats scary shit! Or they would like to learn but have not made the step yet. many of the tradsters who constantly bash the sport climbers simply are not strong enough to get past the warm ups ;)

I did a Red rocks trip in 86 with Charlie Gray. We hit moab and Zion on the way from aspen and ended up in Black velvet canyon for a week. We did Dream of wild turkeys, Triasic sands, the Gobbler, Frogland, Wholesome fullback, Closed on Monday,and Prince of Darkness. Got spit out of the first pitch of Ixlan. Prince of darkness was not in the book but we had a topo on a bar napkin from Michale kennedy i believe? Anyways we thought POD was one of the best climbs of the trip. I know that i certainly did not even realize that it was a contraversial climb. I simply thought it was tons of fun. It is intersting over the years to hear all the back handed derision about the climb (often from folks who have not climbed it) simply because it is mostly bolted. Small minds INMOP.
A light rack to green camalot is recomended..
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 11, 2013 - 08:53am PT
Yes, occasions still occur in my life for trad climbing. Generally I only put up sport routes on walls that will result in a cluster of climbs. But sometimes these sport climbs to be are located on a blob or outcrop that has only a 5th class approach. I then borrow gear and do a grown up ground breaking event from the ground UP but without any pictures or fanfare of the climb being an FFA. Sorry these routes never get mentioned if a guidebook happens.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 11, 2013 - 08:54am PT
Both are trad, Ed.

The tell is the rack.

DMT
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:19am PT
It's amusing that Ed posted pictures of the ceiling on Drunkard's Delight, which has a bombproof threaded sling as the primary protection---this is probably the blue sling in the BITD shot. Can't get much tradder than a threaded sling.

Although the thread is pretty obvious, it isn't unusual for the modern leader to plug cams in right next to this perfect thread. (The over-equipped woman in Ed's second shot has doubles in sizes that are rarely doubled, if even carried at all, in the Gunks, and if nothing else is seriously in need of placing gear to lighten up the load.)

If cams hadn't been invented, there would now be bolts all over trad climbs, and the distinctions, hazy as they have become, would be even further blurred.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Tradmanclimb's statement is a no-brainer we should all agree:
I do not praticulary trust tard climbers whos pantys are so much in a bunch that they feel the need to constantly bash spurt climbers.

StahlBro’s maxim should explain why:
It is about not taking yourself too seriously....ever.

RyanD’s comment:
But if the tradsters are against yoga pants on the trad betty's nowadays then count me out.

No doubt Ryan; but I believe Ed was characterizing as opposed to criticizing.
We trad climbers do often take note of over-geared modern climbers, think of it as a suggestion to understand the benefits of minimalism.

Kumbaya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 09:46am PT
From Godfrey and Chelton's CLIMB!
Diana Hunter leading Wide Country's crux pitch on The Bastille:

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:51am PT
Tarbuster,

The obvious: Between every two crack is a face.

Conclusion: There are more potential face climbs because different face climbs can be on the same face.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:54am PT
Most of the senior trad climbers I know and I know quite a few.... carry large racks of cams up their routes. Trad as all hell.

Next?

DMT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 10:07am PT
It takes all kinds of folks to fill the freeways DMT! (That's a play … off of the Johnny Carson quote from way up thread)
Dingus McGee: sorry but I am not following? You're talking about availability of face climbs to what end?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 11, 2013 - 10:09am PT
It sure does TB. Carry on!

DMT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Wonder Braun sez:
"Ho Mahn, you trad cats awre a strange breed indeed!"


photo manipulation by OUCH!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 11, 2013 - 10:38am PT
Tarbuster,

I'm talking about climbable surfaces. You see with gear only you must follow along (near) the path of the gear line. Hence crack climbing.

But beyond the boundary of the crack is a richness of how do you navigate that overhanging face/surface that for some us is a far more of an intriguing problem than what we have gotten from cams and cracks. Eldorado is a trad? area that exudes some forms of this problem solving.

What I am getting at is that Trad and Sport generally do not use the same turf. The Black Hills Needles have many ground up bolted face climbs that at least some of the locals insist are trad. I did grow up there but now find this duckwalk style of face climbing boring. I can now see why even if sport bolted climbs were on that media, the moves lack what many of us sport climbers are after.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 10:42am PT
Yup.
I have always maintained that terrain dictates style.
It's up to those of us implementing our vision to do the best job of interpreting appropriateness.

In general, much of sport climbing terrain just isn't suited to trad climbing and vice versa. Though we have seen the exceptions and the fisticuffs!
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Apr 11, 2013 - 10:44am PT
Great thread Roy,
Many aspects of climbing have changed during my 30 yr. climbing hiatus.
My active climbing years were basically the 70's (71-82), I got back in the game 9 mo. ago.

These are some things that changed or happened in the last 30 years that
I have had to school myself on since returning.

Terminology:
Trad, Sport, Gym,etc. where not in the lingo when I left 30 yrs ago, I considered my self a CLIMBER.

Redpoint, yellowpoint, etc., are all greek to me even now.

Send, onsight, beta, etc.

Gear:
Cams, quickdraws, sticky rubber, beaks, tomahawks, belay devices, porta-ledges, lycra (glad I missed that) sewn slings and aiders (we tied our own)

Style/ethics:
hangdogging, french free, pullin on gear,rap bolting
all considered a Sin BITD.

Speed climbing, as in how many pitches/routes can I do faster than you.
Personally I don't see the appeal, take yer time enjoy the ride!

Carry on,
Tad

I think this guy is a Trad Climber?, note the swami and rack.
Rock Climber
Rock Climber
Credit: T Hocking


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 10:47am PT
Love that artwork!
I still tie my own slings so they can be used to bail.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 10:50am PT
Meteora was envisioned by Dieter Hasse as a trad area and he did much in terms of developing that concept.
He was so prolific it could be said that he owns the place!
I think there are now some excellent sport climbs there as well.


Roussanou Monastery, with Holy Ghost group of rocks:
(photo Dieter Hasse)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
if the term "Trad" come from the word "traditional" then what is traditional?

here is a sequence of shots of my climbing partner Mike leading Baby, our first climb in the 'Gunks... in the late 1970's early 1980's era... pre-Friends...

I think Mike has 4 pieces in when he gets done with the first pitch.



I still think Trad is tied slings, stoppers and hexes... in this modern era, taking a set of stoppers on a rack is "traditional," I rarely see anyone who does that actually use them... sort of like an amulet, bringing the Trad gods protection to those who bear a 'biner full.

and yes, walking off the top after a climb, I remember the blueberrys were more abundant in the bushes just a bit below the edge of the cliff, where the deer couldn't browse them... this mode of walking off is also traditional, and I can't imagine doing anything else... it also makes a 'gunks "100 day" a bit more challenging...

[another tradition, a "100 day" = add the decimal grade of each pitch you climbed that day... so 10 pitches of 5.10 = 100... no letters allowed... this is more challenging if you have to walk off]
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Look to the East, to Dresden, and you will know tradition.

Good dang run-down of sh#t to know, Tad.

I'm in total agreement.

YOU carry on, lad.

Yer back in the game.

Good on Ed, too.

Ya got a great thread spooling out, Roy.

So good on you, too.
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
I don't believe I'd ever really embrace sport and gym climbing in general.

It has nothing to do with trad, bolts, hang dogging, plastic or any that sh!t.

It's because doesn't go anywhere for me.

Just monkeying around on moves and yo-yoing around doesn't interests me at all.

I'd rather do something else in life if that's all there is.

I'd rather sit in a corn field in Kansas or watch a river float by than waste my life yo-yoing some stupid gymnastic moves .....





Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
I still prefer to walk off as well; there is a sense of completeness delivered through this behavior. Also, check it out: after one tops out, one is sort of lollygagging about in the Mind-Heather or the Poppy Fields in the afterglow from the buzz. This is best enjoyed trampling along down the backside of the cliff through the soft forest. Kind of like having a smoke after sex! Not that I smoke, but we get the picture, no?
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
WBraun.... WORD....
MH2

climber
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Trad is not dead, dying, or even catching the sniffles, as long as Tarbuster is here.

However, sorting through all the gear, I sure liked the elegance, light weight, and low price of stoppers and hexes slung with cord. Climbing with cams is a different game.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Yes WORD, yes... no gym-climbing and yoyoing... writing posts to the ST internet forum... lol... WBraun, WBraun...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Trad is and looks like this:



ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 11, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Yes, walking off the back so you don't have to rappel!

Preparing to "walk off the back" Courtesy Philo/Newberry and MP.com

Credit: ydpl8s
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 11, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
Trad is and looks like this:

Horn's Mother? Sure is it trad, especially with the convenience bolts with chains for lowering so you don't have to walk off or do 2 rappels. Who would want to do that?!

oh, and here is the gear beta spray from Mountain Project:

The crux is 10-15 feet from the ground pulling out of a small roof/overhang a few moves above a 3-4" cam. 25-30' up there is a fixed belay. From there, the pro goes to #4 Camalots for 40 feet, until the crack begins to taper down, gradually narrowing to 2 inches at the top. Fixed anchors are at the top and a 70m rope will get you down with minimal effort. A single 50m can be used if you make 2 rappels onto Walt's Wall.



Sounds like quite the trad 'adventure'.... at least it IS sandbagged for huge mitts, like all off-hands are in the Voo.




GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Guess for me, Trad has more adventure. I love adventure.
I don't see sport as an adventure, but it sure is freaking hard! Good sport climbers are strong!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 11, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
Yeah, but can you climb the same face twice, DMcGee?

Horn's Mother is just a classic! Interestingly enough, though I do t think you can tell in that photo, there is a Todd Skinner bolted sportclimb that crosses it at the pod.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 11, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
I'm eating sh#t, huh?  Dig it!
I'm eating sh#t, huh? Dig it!
Credit: mouse from merced
after one tops out, one is sort of lollygagging about in the Mind-Heather or the Poppy Fields in the afterglow from the buzz.

Perspicacity under the big hat.

Not just echoes of the past.

Your climbs will be in somebody's past.

Style sets you apart if you are original.

I see no originality in sport climbing, only connecting dots.

No adventure, only strength training.

That's training for the real thing by clipping only.

If you miss out on the real thing because of this training, I won't miss you out it the wild, dang sure...

I wish everybody'd be able to experience the Bugaboos like those kids in that other thread.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Let's not forget sandbagging...
trr2ke

Trad climber
Cookeville Tn
Apr 11, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
^^^ Is sandbagging trad or is inflation sport climbing?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 11, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
^^^let's not forget slander either
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 11, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
^^^^ Are witty one liners trad?? If so we got a lot of trad climbers in the mix here :-)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:01am PT
Hey, it was Sweden so I figured the manpris and the Hot Henry hat were ok.
Was I wrong? (at least they were Levis manpris)

Credit: Reilly
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:19am PT
does this mean I have to wait 20 more years before I can climb trad?

Damn...and here, I thought it was about the top out...

oh well, guess I'll just have to settle for intense scrambling til I get to climb trad...hee hee

Cheers

LS
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:51am PT
Wonderful conversation everyone and thanks to Tarbuster for getting the ball rolling.

As far as knowing it when you see it...


Credit: Mark Force

Mark Chapman jammin'
Mark Chapman jammin'








The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 12, 2013 - 06:35am PT
Nice photos^^^

But Ice climbing, aid climbing and alpine climbing aren't trad climbing, at least IMH(and admittedly crusty)O and according to Tom Higgins who coined the term.

Trad climbing refers to free climbing on rock with no use of aid whatsoever - if you know climbing history and respect the term's traditional meaning.

But if tradition and history are unimportant, trad can mean whatever.

http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=19

When will the first sport climbs become trad?



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 12, 2013 - 06:49am PT
to the contrary, ice, alpine and aid are a hell of a lot more traditional than whineing about other climbers not playing by YOUR RUles which seems to be the core principal of modern so called trad climbing....
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 12, 2013 - 07:08am PT
The "rules" of trad climbing were effectively established at the same time as the phrase "traditional climbing" was established.

They're not anybody in particular's rules. More a very simple concept than a set of rules - absolutely no aid used, ground up only.


I rarely climb trad style anymore... I really enjoy sport climbing.

But after forty five years of climbing, I know what trad style is and what it isn't
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Apr 12, 2013 - 07:10am PT
to the contrary, ice, alpine and aid are a hell of a lot more traditional than whineing about other climbers not playing by YOUR RUles which seems to be the core principal of modern so called trad climbing....

you have a complex, tradmanclimbs.
it might stem from the fact that your gal is buffer than you
(how many times? how many times have you pasted that picture
of your incredibly strong partner, all pumped and flexed?)

don't fret man.
everyone here knows how badass and talented you are.
the plethora of your (copyrighted) glossies assure
us of your hyper-pure motivations,
and exquisite execution of said righteous ideals.

kevin wasn't whining. he even qualified his opinion as humble and crusty.
But Ice climbing, aid climbing and alpine climbing aren't trad climbing, at least IMH(and admittedly crusty)O and according to Tom Higgins who coined the term.

Trad climbing refers to free climbing on rock with no use of aid whatsoever - if you know climbing history and respect the term's traditional meaning.

you, man, need to go hug a teddybear.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 12, 2013 - 07:19am PT
The YOUR Rules comment is not aimed at kevin. It is aimed at all the folks who wave the trad flag in a way that judges anyone who does not climb by their rules as inferior and heathen. We used to get a lot of that crap here in the east but it seems to have mellowed out the last few years... They pretty much ran Ken Nichols out of town so to speak;) Nothing has been chopped in awhile that i am aware of which is a good thing.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 12, 2013 - 07:21am PT
Perhaps George Hurley going an a marathon rap bolting spree the last 10 years or so has helped calm the choppers down a bit;)
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 12, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Jaybro,

it is possible to do a climb, but not the same climb.

After all the talk, it was just a jet pack.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 12, 2013 - 09:31am PT
Jaybro,

400 posts to this thread substantiate my belief stated earlier in the thread:


it seems traditional for a trad climber to be concerned about the definition of his group and sporty for a sport climber to not be concerned how his group is defined. So you can define the sport climber with sport even though you are a trad.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Apr 12, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Complaining about rules as if they are the evil invention of some particular group, and the absurd pretense that some people operate without any rules is tiresome. (This is not aimed at the previous post.) All climbing, trad, sport, alpine, Himalayan, is based on rules. Climbing, in every one of its modern forms, is based on the voluntary renunciation of all possible means. There would be nothing recognizable as climbing if climbers didn't deny themselves certain forms of progression and technology. In other words, without "rules" climbing ceases to exist.

The achievements of climbing are framed in the context of the rules that were and were not used. Ascents without oxygen, clean aid, use of fixed ropes, type of protection, and on and on. In many cases it is impossible to understand a particular bit of climbing without also knowing the rules that the ascenders adhered to.

Of course, there has always been and will continue to be conflict between people playing essentially the same game with different sets of rules. We don't have referees to blow the whistle---climbers make their cases by force of argument and the martialing of communal opinion. And when conflicts exist, there is always the potential for extremism to warp the debate, as Ken Nichols managed to do in Connecticut.

Sport climbing broke a lot of the existing rules and generated controversy because of that. I find it interesting that sport climbers are at heart uncomfortable enough about the rules they've abandoned to have created an extensive vocabulary (flash, onsight, redpoint, pinkpoint, etc.) that replaces the abandoned rules with a host of fine-tuned distinctions that qualify the level of achievement.

The rules are dead. Long live the rules.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 12, 2013 - 11:33am PT
Trad style - ground up only, no aid whatsoever, on rock, with a desire for adventure.

Trad route - a route done first trad style.

Trad climber - a climber who exclusively climbs trad style. Rare animal.

Trad gear - any crack protection device or bolt placed without aid.


Is that simple enough?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 12, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Tradster Doofus
Tradster Doofus
Credit: Dingus Milktoast

DMT
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
What Warbler said!!!!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Yeah, but...--Doofy

Nice regurgitation, rgold. For lack of a better word.

And what that Mark guy said.

What about tomorrow?

Will trad remain simply trad, folks?

KTAC radio be right back and we'll see.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
I find it interesting that sport climbers are at heart uncomfortable enough about the rules they've abandoned to have created an extensive vocabulary (flash, onsight, redpoint, pinkpoint, etc.) that replaces the abandoned rules with a host of fine-tuned distinctions that qualify the level of achievement.


huh? 'trad' climbers use the same terminology.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Rich Goldstone: thank you.
Kevin: yes
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Tradmanclimbs said:
The YOUR Rules comment is not aimed at kevin. It is aimed at all the folks who wave the trad flag in a way that judges anyone who does not climb by their rules as inferior and heathen.

This is to my mind is a culturally relevant point to make, because we see so much of this judgmental behavior, at its worst, easily characterized as bitter posturing, but please let me make it clear that this is not the intent of this thread. My intent is not to expose Trad as having superiority over sport climbing. No. My intent for this thread is truly to plumb the question posed in the OP and likewise to expose, define and investigate the nuances of the trad experience.


Patrick Compton said earlier:
Horn's Mother? Sure is it trad, especially with the convenience bolts with chains for lowering so you don't have to walk off or do 2 rappels. Who would want to do that?!
... Not a point to be missed in pursuit of accurate definition of terms! Convenience anchors are antithetical to the accumulated "rules of trad". More important than this however, are the nuanced benefits of a complete and self-sustained way of approaching and sustaining the fundamental qualities of adventure: convenience anchors disrupt this flow.



"Accurate definition of terms" brings us to Warbler:
But Ice climbing, aid climbing and alpine climbing aren't trad climbing, at least IMH(and admittedly crusty)O and according to Tom Higgins who coined the term.
Trad climbing refers to free climbing on rock with no use of aid whatsoever - if you know climbing history and respect the term's traditional meaning.
But if tradition and history are unimportant, trad can mean whatever.

Thank you Kevin for sticking with this notion of researching etymology through providing Tom Higgins' published work in helping us to define our terms; you brought your nail bags, good, as the lexicon needs either some clarification, maintenance or a remodel!



Again from Tom Higgins website:
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=19


So: as a matter of semantics, the phrase "traditional climbing" may well enough circumscribe everything that came before sport climbing and gyms, to include mountaineering, alpinism, aid climbing and so forth. Conversely, it may well be that we need to see the euphemism or slang usage of "Trad Climbing" as distinct from "Traditional Climbing". "Trad climbing" we may wish to agree, refers only to a specific style of free climbing. This might seem like nit picking but I think it is potentially of great help in underscoring what Kevin is getting at, thank you.

This is important lexicographic work. We are not dead yet!
And I am not done yet, I got more in the pipeline: I AM TRAD … Hear me ROAR! hahahahahha.



Mark Force!
Excellent stream of pictures: you saved me a lot of work!
You guys are a lot of work, this is all work: work work work work work work work work I tell you!

TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
^^^ "TRAD, TRAD, TRAD..." = another term: Tradgasm.

Use in a sentence: While sitting in my cubicle, posting on ST, I had a tradgasm just thinking about how great trad is.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Mr. Compton said:
huh? 'trad' climbers use the same terminology.

One could make a case that this is incorrect, from a historical perspective. Now they may use them.
Factually: some of those terms superseded existing terms. Many other terms not listed superseded existing terms.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
rgold,

yes, most every group internally communicates with nuanced words, or lingo, to tell their story in shorter form. Sport climbers are more competitive than typical trads and that is reflected in the various words they use to describe subtle aspects of making the ascent.

Kamps and I used to argue about how his ideas of "from the ground up" rules severely limited the bolting of overhanging faces. My thoughts, "They would be so cool to climb on lead"!(when protected). Yes, it was a difficult choice for me to convert from what Bob had passed along as doctrine to bolting these overhangs on rappel. Now days many of us like them and repeat them.

Perhaps its our genetics that forced us to abandon that narrow view of what back then constituted all of good climbing style.

We have deeply different desires about how we want to use the rock surface and especially when these uses are cast with words the amplify small differences defenses arise.




John Butler

Social climber
SLC, Utah
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Seems like there are a lot of trad routes out there that were ground up and maybe even hand drilled that had some of the drilling done on a hook... or does that make it mixed?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
BITD all I recall is asking "Did ya do it?" because there was only one way to do it - the right way.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
One could make a case that this is incorrect, from a historical perspective. Now they may use them.
Factually: some of those terms superseded existing terms. Many other terms not listed superseded existing terms.

Yes, but trads are not 'uncomfortable at heart' enough with the practice of sport climbing not make use of useful and accurate terminology. The idea that sport climbers are inherently self-loathing because they aren't trads is just silly.

Something to consider: the top trads today have a background in the sport climbing and or bouldering. If trad is so inherently nifty and wonderful, why is this? Is it maybe because trad is a discipline of the mind and a set of skills, but necessarily a discipline to get one fit for climbing hard moves?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Example of redefinition of terms by sport climbing culture:

On-site flash: same in both cultures, no change
Red point: new term, old usage loosely was "clean lead".
Pink point: new term, further refining the outcome of pre-placed protection.
Tension: changed to "take", this one seems unnecessary and in some cases dangerous. I know of one accident in particular that relates to it.
Trad route: looks like it has changed to "Gear route", this seems to be more accurate in terms of a portrayal of current usage.
Pre-inspection/rehearsal: Head Point
Perhaps some of you can come up with others, I can't at the moment.
Gotta think about it a little more.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
Pinkpoint hasn't existed as a distinction in sport world for at least a decade. No one cares if the draws are already on or are permadraws. Look at almost any photo in a mag of anyone doing something hard for evidence of hanging draws.

However, there is a huge difference in trad world if gear is pre-placed or not.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
... and your 'new terms' have been in the lexicon for at least 25 years.

edit to add: post #420!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Patrick Compton's quotes:

Yes, but trads are not 'uncomfortable at heart' enough with the practice of sport climbing not make use of useful and accurate terminology.
No argument. But there were a few changes which were unnecessary, sort of like cultural absorption after a war! Oh well.


The idea that sport climbers are inherently self-loathing because they aren't trads is just silly.

Not sure where you got that one, no argument.


The original from Rich Goldstone: "I find it interesting that sport climbers are at heart uncomfortable enough about the rules they've abandoned to have created an extensive vocabulary".


the top trads today have a background in the sport climbing and or bouldering.
Correct; not a faulty observation. This is evolution. Things change, for my part I'm not saying they shouldn't. If I have a mission statement, it's merely to characterize and explore trad.


Is it maybe because trad is a discipline of the mind and a set of skills, but necessarily not a discipline to get one fit for climbing hard moves?
I would say so!


Pinkpoint hasn't existed as a distinction in sport world for at least a decade. No one cares if the draws are already on or are permadraws. Look at almost any photo in a mag of anyone doing something hard for evidence of hanging draws.
However, there is a huge difference in trad world if gear is pre-placed or not.
Agreed.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Glad we are having concensus. The 'self-loathing' question was asked to rGold for clarification.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
... And your 'new terms' have been in the lexicon for at least 25 years.
No argument, again. What I said was: "One could make a case that this is incorrect, from a historical perspective." I was speaking to history regarding Rich Goldstone's post: I was elaborating on the general topic he was addressing. I reread his post and I see where you got the bit about insecurity. Fair enough.

Not to run away, but I have to go, what we are discussing is a minor issue and to my mind we are losing the plot, not to invalidate your points.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Particularly bothersome to me is that lots of climbers think trad climbs exclude those with bolt protection. Bolts were an essential element in the split between sport and trad, but there was never any suggestion that free routes with bolt protection weren't traditional. However, routes like The Bachar Yerian, to use a high profile example of a route the masses revere as trad, were not done trad style by the original definition, because aid was used to drill.

I think there is room for a new term - trad point - where a predominately gear protected route is worked by resting on gear, and then sent with no falls or rests. A head point would be the R+/X version.

Just a couple of disparate thoughts...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
huh? 'trad' climbers use the same terminology.
They do now, first because the terms have "backwashed" from sport climbing, and second because the hardest trad climbs (in the U.S.) have (of necessity) adopted the sport climbing style, and this naturally percolates down to all levels. (I do realize I'm using "trad climbs" as an undefined term here.)

The idea that sport climbers are inherently self-loathing because they aren't trads is just silly.

The only thing that is silly is to read "self-loathing" when I said "uncomfortable enough to...," a locution that isn't even equivalent to "uncomfortable." My point is that the intrinsic demand for rules that is essential to climbing could account for the replacing of abandoned rules with a vocabulary of fine distinctions.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
How about forgetting Trad?? all it's implications and innuendos ( except for this nostalgic diatribe)and use just variations of two expressions? "Oh No, I'm just a trad climber."

1. Today it's gear climbing for me.

2. It's mostly clip & Go over there.


1. Friends work best on that rock.

2. It's Dirt Me Dude.

And so it is when life is dyed in the wool.

added: I do only ground up walk up off climbs.. Scarpelli was just visiting. He and Wade placed the bolts in the pod on Horn's Mother so they could do just the hard moves and move to the next hard crack section elsewhere. I told him this group would excommunicate him from all trad climbing meetings ,the Eternal Brotherhood of Trad Climbs, the SOB's Against Sport, Bitches for Men for in Briches, Lesbians against Hangdoging, Californicators Pushing Pitons. He'll be taking his chisel out today to respect your wishes.

It is the very people that once were true trad that are pissing off the current trad who don't know the current bigger picture.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 12, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
The question in the OP strikes me as one updating the categories in Lito Tejada-Flores's classic essay "Games Climbers Play" from Ascent in the 1960's. The 426 posts to date, largely but not entirely, seem to be trying to define the "trad game" and placing it in Lito's hierarchy.

In that spirit, I think the Warbler's definition comes pretty close to mine. My only issue concerns how to deal with a first free ascent. Kevin's criteria exclude all forms of aid in placing protection. I think most of us would consider the DNB, Lost Arrow Chimney or Steck-Salathe to be trad climbs, even though aid bolts were placed on the first ascent of each. Similarly, the FFA of the Regular Route of Phantom Pinnacle was made when the third pitch was festooned with fixed pins, left over from its original status as an aid climb.

Do we need some sort of grandfather clause for route done prior to a given date as aid routes?

Incidentally, intense training is certainly nothing new in the trad world. Bouldering started my attraction to climbing in the 1960's. I think the only difference was that almost no one considered bouldering an end in itself. We treated it more as training for "real" climbs.

John
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 12, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Kamps and I used to argue about how his ideas of "from the ground up" rules severely limited the bolting of overhanging faces. My thoughts, "They would be so cool to climb on lead"!(when protected). Yes, it was a difficult choice for me to convert from what Bob had passed along as doctrine to bolting these overhangs on rappel. Now days many of us like them and repeat them

You do know that Bob really liked going to Williamson Rock, later in his life, and I know he took great pride in doing the "On-site" ... just so the youth would be blown away.

The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 12, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
I considered your point, John, and it's a very valid one if you're trying to boil trad style down to its absolute essence - I just left that fairly uncommon situation out to keep it simple.

There are probably very few routes that were originally aid, and then free climbed, which depend on aid placed bolts, pins, wires, whatever, to a point where enough protection couldn't have been placed without aid to climb the route in what I'm trying to define as trad style as a FA, had it not originally been done with aid.

There are so few routes like this that I was thinking it's not worth trying to decide if they're really trad or not, but that's certainly debatable.

Maybe these routes should be named traid routes, to ease the confusion ;)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 12, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Maybe these routes should be named traid routes, to ease the confusion ;)

Excellent!

John
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 12, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
You guys way over complicate this with all these rules. Some of you say 'its just climbing' and then you start in with a rather endless list of exceptions and caveats.

Its why subsequent generations reject it - it comes across as RULES and thats a bunch of sh#t, when it comes to climbing.



DMT
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 12, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
You guys way over complicate this...

2 questions, DMT, you seem genuinely bugged by the discussion, and we respect your opinion.

What year did you start climbing?



And, is this over complicated in your mind? -

Trad style - ground up only, no aid whatsoever, on rock, with a desire for adventure.

Trad route - a route done first trad style.

Trad climber - a climber who exclusively climbs trad style. Rare animal.

Trad gear - any crack protection device or bolt placed without aid.


I advocate refining the use of the word trad, only using it for a specific style and routes which warrant the term, and basically calling everything else simply free climbing, sport climbing aid or big wall climbing, ice climbing, alpine climbing, mountaineering, gym climbing, bouldering etc.

I think climbers should hesitate before calling themselves or others trad climbers. It's different and meaningful to say one is a good trad climber, or an experienced trad climber - a subtle distinction, but valid I think.

That gives the word meaning and honors the proud spirit and origins of the style.





Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 12, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Dingus, You're right, when it comes to climbing style, it is all arbitrary and meaningless. Climbing doesn't matter other than the pleasure and satisfaction it gives us from playing the game and it's all just a game. Play it anyway you want.

This conversation is all about the nuances of playing the trad climbing game as developed somewhere around the 60s and 70s by the group of climbers playing that game. For the group that plays that game, some rules seem to optimize the pleasure and satisfaction gained from the climbing experience. You can play your own game and make up your own rules. You can play the game you make up by yourself or with other climbers who want to play that particular game.

As for style, there seems to be a general consensus about playing games that style is optimized when technology is minimized and the greatest demands are made on talent, technique, training, mental toughness, etc. In that way, achievement is based on the individuals' abilities rather than the technologies used.

The undercurrent that hasn't been addressed (IMHO ;-)) concerns ethics rather than style. Clean and free trad, even trad style bolting and fixed pins on free routes, has less environmental impact than sport climbing. Those who play the trad game probably feel uncomfortable with the environmental impact of sport climbing and have articulated their arguments as rules of style, a personal issue, rather than as rules of ethics, a community and environmental issue.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Dingus McGee!
This is NOT a nostalgic diatribe.
It is a TRADGASM.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Mark, for me, your first 3 paragraphs are spot on.
The ethical/environmental bit, ostensibly you are correct, but it can be a can of worms. I'll get back to that and elaborate later.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 12, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Warb - 1973, goldline and hexes :-)

Trad style - ground up only, no aid whatsoever, on rock, with a desire for adventure.
The desire for adventure is not requisite but the rest, sure, I'm ok with the old school def.

Trad route - a route done first trad style.
Nope. Any route can be a trad route if climbed from the bottom to the top, ground up, using placed pro from a rack of gear. A freed aid route can be a trad route. I do not think the FA seals the deal forevermore. There have been lots of free aid routes - I think E Butt of Middle is totally trad, myself, despite Hardings bold ladder (which I never bothered to even try and free but have done 50 Crowded variation :-))

Trad climber - a climber who exclusively climbs trad style. Rare animal.
No I don't buy this either. A trad climber is a climber climbing trad. The trad climber can be a sport climber tomorrow, a boulderer the day after that and an aid climber the day after that... she can still return to being trad after sullying herself in those debauched ways.


Trad gear - any crack protection device or bolt placed without aid.

I suppose so... but I don't think there is anything trad about powered rotatory hammer drills, drilled on lead or dangling from a rope. Someone slams in 8 bolts on lead with a drill clipped to her harness, I ain't buying the trad moniker, weighted pro or not. A style, btw, I have engaged in from time to time. The ones I did were sport climbs.... for sure.

Bothered by it? No. But I do like to fondle the differences between the old school def and the current one. :-) Cheers man

DMT

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Agree DMT,
Freeing aid routes suits the definition for me; so does repeating things in "trad style". Higgins' focus on the FA was, I believe, done to address the controversy over how to engage resources.

Using hooks: Bachar used an interesting support for that by calling the B.Y. ... 511 A0. Effectively, he changed the rules but with that distinction as a hedge, for lack of a better word.

(More like 5.11 & new school A2+ haha he was modest there...)
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 12, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
Warb - 1973, goldline and hexes :-)

Ok, then you have some first hand experience.

Trad style - ground up only, no aid whatsoever, on rock, with a desire for adventure.

The desire for adventure is not requisite but the rest, sure, I'm ok with the old school def.

I just threw that in for flavor. We can drop the desire for adventure part. Good - even simpler.

Trad route - a route done first trad style.

Nope. Any route can be a trad route if climbed from the bottom to the top, ground up, using placed pro from a rack of gear. A freed aid route can be a trad route. I do not think the FA seals the deal forevermore. There have been lots of free aid routes - I think E Butt of Middle is totally trad, myself, despite Hardings bold ladder (which I never bothered to even try and free but have done 50 Crowded variation :-))


I acknowledged this oversight in response to John's post just upthread. Now who's making things complicated? :) I agree, a freed aid route can be a trad route, so I might rephrase my words thusly:

Trad route - a route done free first trad style.

How's that?

Trad climber - a climber who exclusively climbs trad style. Rare animal.

No I don't buy this either. A trad climber is a climber climbing trad. The trad climber can be a sport climber tomorrow, a boulderer the day after that and an aid climber the day after that... she can still return to being trad after sullying herself in those debauched ways.

Another minor, hair splitting distinction - just saying that it's unnecessary and uninformative to call her a trad climber if she climbs all different types of climbing. Calling her sick if she's got the flu is different than calling her sick, n'est ce pas? Like I said, I think it means something to say she's a good trad climber, or she went trad climbing today, but to call her a trad climber for a particular day because she's placing gear in a crack just seems dumb.


Trad gear - any crack protection device or bolt placed without aid.

I suppose so... but I don't think there is anything trad about powered rotatory hammer drills, drilled on lead or dangling from a rope. Someone slams in 8 bolts on lead with a drill clipped to her harness, I ain't buying the trad moniker, weighted pro or not. A style, btw, I have engaged in from time to time. The ones I did were sport climbs.... for sure.

The thing about the concept of trad style is that it doesn't matter what tool the hole is made with, just like it doesn't matter if the pro used is a pin, stopper or cam - the qualifier is whether it was placed on aid or not. Cams and sticky rubber have had way more impact on the challenge of trad climbing than power drills, and I doubt you'd argue that cams and C4 aren't trad gear.


Better?





Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 12, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
I thought it was pretty cool when the Hubers were on The NA Wall, they would ask a lot of questions and try to get a consensus of opinion on what would be Ok in the protection realm, so as not to destroy a Historic Wall Route. Skinner would've just bolted it up.
I still dunno aboot "Trad", though. You mean Tad?
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Apr 12, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Photo by DEE. Courtesy of, and respectfully ripped off from, DEE
Photo by DEE. Courtesy of, and respectfully ripped off from, DEE
Credit: looking sketchy there...

DEE and EE looking serious.
DEE and EE looking serious.
Credit: looking sketchy there...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Yup, that's how trad guys should look.
(right click ... save ... emulate)
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 12, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Sketchy,

The Clockwork Orange bowler is a really nice touch.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
Excerpt from How to be a Rad Trad Dad 2nd edition:

"Copping a Credible Trad-Itude"

Tip #5.11: when approached, always down rate like shitt, then tie it up with a transparent false-modesty chaser.

Example:
Q:
Hey T-Bird ... How was 4th of July Crack?
A:
Floated it in shorts, no shirt & a Stetson ... felt like a helium baloon with nothin' but contempt for string and forefinger ... 'dunno where them Wyomin' boys git their ratings ... felt like 10D... maybe I just had a good day.

Tip #5.11D : If higher up in the pecking order, just flatly dismiss the challenge:
Q:
Hey Bachar ... How was Ball Hair Singeing Waltz? ... You know, that flared seam over by Death Ride...
A:
Eh ... Not that bad...
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 12, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Bachar....a one man definition of trad!

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
Dude ... Good call!
We now bow our heads in homage to OUR BLONDE GOD.

Hey Kevin: what did we decide, free solo is trad right?
Clear the deck for full-fledged stolen-photo Internet assault!

What starts out as mild-mannered bouldering,
Left in the hands of Yano became not so mild-mannered "bouldering" ...
As Wunder Braun would say: "just see"

Trifle Towers, Airtime:


Curt Smith photo


Hot Rocks:


photo stolen from John, original photographer?


Baby Apes:


photo stolen from John, original photographer?


Spider Line:


watermarks are good value!


Butter Balls:


photo Mark Chapman


Five and Dime:
(doesn't he look almost bored?)


photo somebody help me out with this one?


Reed's Direct:


photo Phil Bard


Manic-Depression:


photo Curt Smith
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 12, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Credit: drljefe