What Is Trad ?????????

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patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 26, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
What Is Trad?
I submit to you: This Is Trad!


So, a trip to IC and suddenly TRAD is chalk highways, gear-beta, grades and names written on rocks in chalk, and chain anchors. Awesome.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 26, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Do you pop the balloons at other kids' birthday parties?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 26, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Absolutely.

The climbers he interviewed are obviously trads, and quite accomplished ones, but not by the Yos Rockmaster, olskool, OG, definition.

It is time to broaden the word.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Just think: Classic Rock in the music genre.
These guys aren't simply and only Trads; they play other, er ... progressive styles ... underground psychedelia & etc..
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 26, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Kinda Techno / Jamband....



So Compton, are you eluding to a granfalloon you presume to speak for?
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 26, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Credit: The Ski Hut

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 26, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Classic Rock is the perfect example of the evolution of things - pop rock to Perry Como status, blink of an eye!

Boomers? Your children look at your music and climbing as you looked at your parents.

It doesn't matter if you think Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd were the greatest rock banks of all time. :-) You don't have a vote any more. I always thought Frank Sinatra SUCKED, myself :-D

Same for the modern definition of trad... is has moved beyond us.

Cool thread.

DMT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Glad you are enjoying it DMT!

Perhaps the distinguishing feature here and I am with Warbler on this, is that subsequent generations know quite well what classic rock was and is. Likewise, they don't try or even want to say that their modern musical forms are to be defined as classic rock.

Pretty much the same with the young Arizonans whom I met this weekend: for example, within 3 min. my query was clearly answered by them. They know what trad is and they know when they are engaging in tactics which have moved beyond trad. They don't then call that trad. They also know the term is nearly anachronistic but they still know exactly what it means in terms of route opportunities and actions.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
If modern climbers, through some slow accretion of various tactics want to change the face of trad and completely redefine the term, then of course we can't change that here.

But, here's why and how it can be important or desirable to leave the definition more or less intact: from Alpinist 42, an excerpt from an article called Homage, by Brandon Pullan:
"To learn to climb here, I needed to turn to the elders … History wasn't just a lesson about the past, but a means to create the future."

The Arizona boys totally get this. They understand the usefulness of the distinction of the basic definition of Trad. It is useful to them because they aspire to its product.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
The elusive definition of Trad!
Be … the chaos, embrace … the wonder!


First ascent, no-name crack, Supercrack Buttress, 1983


Primrose Dihedrals, 1983


West Face of Castleton, early 1990s


West Face of Castleton, early 1990s


Ponders of Persuasion, Bridger Jack, 1994


Ponders of Persuasion, Bridger Jack, 1994

We rappeled from a previously fixed two bolt anchor some ways above the spot in the last picture, retreating from snowstorm.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
Patrick Compton asserted:
So, a trip to IC and suddenly TRAD is chalk highways, gear-beta, grades and names written on rocks in chalk, and chain anchors. Awesome.

The pictures in the above post depict a range of activities in which I'd been involved during the 80s and 90s in and around Indian Creek. When Alan Roberts and I did no-name crack on Supercrack Buttress in 1983, I drilled a 3/8 inch bolt and a hole which I filled with a baby angle. There is nothing new about anchors at the top of climbs in that location.

I started climbing in 1974 on Goldline and in red PA's. When I arrived in Yosemite Valley in 1977, chalk highways, gear-beta through oral tradition, and fixed anchors at the tops of short free climbs were all in observance.

Nothing sudden about these attributes of Trad.

And I'll go you one more: route names have been traditionally etched in small stones at the base of routes in Indian Creek for over 20 years. Yikes. Leave no trace takes a hit there! It's only an aspiration and an ideal.

There are two basic kinds of trolls Patrick: those that elicit humor and add to the fun for all and those which are designed to overwork the opponent. You've been doing both. For an example of the former: the video you posted was actually pretty funny! But now the link is private: can you please fix this and/or make it public for us?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
As reputedly seen at JTree within the last few days...

Yes, comrade, this is an OG Abalakov. <br/>
I'm pretty sure that is trad. ...
Yes, comrade, this is an OG Abalakov.
I'm pretty sure that is trad. Well, as trad
as the Migs that came out of the other end of the factory.
Credit: Reilly
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
You know Reilly, rich guys by those MIGs for play toys nowadays.
I'm guessing they pull more Gs than the bestest of the best sporty-sports cars?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 26, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
So Compton, are you eluding to a granfalloon you presume to speak for?

Good one. I had to look that up. Trad does actually exist, it just is right in front of our noses, not an abstract ideal from history to be put on a pedestal.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 26, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Tar,

I have no doubt that you are as Trad as it gets. Your troll analysis is quite interesting.

These days Trad climbers seem to care less about tradition and more about the physical endeavor, but it is still called Trad climbing if it is done on gear. I think it is great, but many 'Trads' esp. of the older variety fall back on the 'old days' as really being were it was it. I would argue that now is the Golden Age were technology, training, bravery, and adventure all combine.


You can't see the youtube link because the guy pulled it. Here it is on DPM
[quote]http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/rock-climbing-fall[/quote]
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 26, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Trad does actually exist, it just is right in front of our noses, not an abstract ideal from history to be put on a pedestal.... but many 'Trads' esp. of the older variety fall back on the 'old days' as really being were it was it.

This is a misconception. I don't see the original definition of trad as being abstract in the slightest, Patrick, but I'm open to your explanation of why and how it is abstract. No "falling back on the old days as being were (where?) it was it (at?)" either, on my part anyway, or on any "older variety trads" posting on this thread. Any climber can be exactly "where it was at" in the old days by climbing in the style that originally was called traditional. Free climbing with no aid whatsoever (no toproping, no resting on gear), ground up only. No pedestal involved, just clean free climbing.

What's so abstract about that?

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Patrick Compton in italics:

not an abstract ideal from history to be put on a pedestal.
It's a fact of history and a useful distinction, nothing more to me personally. The present is connected to the past. Things put on pedestals just get knocked over, so it isn't my bag. I am merely celebrating Trad.


but it is still called Trad climbing if it is done on gear.
This varies depending on locality and upon whom you talk to, is open for debate; but it is a circular debate at this point.


but many 'Trads' esp. of the older variety fall back on the 'old days' as really being where it was it.
Indeed true, but can't be helped.


I would argue that now is the Golden Age were technology, training, bravery, and adventure all combine.
It's certainly quite something to watch unfold and it's inspiring! Whether it's a Golden Age or not is opinion, speculation or conjecture.


Your troll analysis is quite interesting.
I say this because you behave as though you're not reading along and you make declarations such as this below which are wholly inaccurate, (thus my history at the top of the page):

So, a trip to IC and suddenly TRAD is chalk highways, gear-beta, grades and names written on rocks in chalk, and chain anchors. Awesome.

---------------------------------------------------------------


So, Patrick: you are essentially just dropping in, making very pointed statements, knocking balls all over the tennis court so that we will pick them up. You've repeated yourself in this regard and have done this without absorbing much of what has been said along the way. By this I mean you seem as though you have an ax to grind and you're not incorporating much of the ameliorative effort which has been made to address this apparent position. This effectively is trolling because it creates a lot of work in addressing the behavior. Counterpoint is useful but not when it is repetitive and distracting.

This thread is meant to be fun and stimulating. Not a typical hard position argumentative entrenchment, as is too often the case.

‘Hope that helps and Thanks,
Roy
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 26, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
I think it's hard for a lot of modern climbers to adhere to the original trad ethic because it's a lot harder to climb the rating ladder without compromising that ethic, especially if you want to "trad climb" at the same difficulty rating as you or your peers sport climb or gym climb. I think that's why the gear factor is all important in most modern climbers' minds, rather than the style factor, when it comes to trad.

It was even harder to raise your lead level within the trad ethic when there were only hexes and stoppers, or worse - pins, hammers and Kroenhoffers. Luckily for us old guys, 5.10 was the hardest climbing around when we got started, so you could feel like you were at the top of the game with a bit less effort than nowadays.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
Insightful and spot on from where I am sitting Kevin.
They also just may not care. But if you read my report from IC one page back, it is clear that some do.
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