"The giant gaping hole in Sandy Hook reporting"

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steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2013 - 08:08am PT
I started this thread since it might get over-looked on the very lengthy thread already on S.T.

An old climbing mate sent me this info. yesterday. He works for a law firm which has been involved with previous court cases involving shootings, where the crazed shooter had been taking drugs,; such as Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac etc.

My friend told me that he knows in several cases, the big drug firms, behind closed doors, payed off the right people, to prevent big law suits.

Here is the article:

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/the-giant-gaping-hole-in-sandy-hook-reporting
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:27am PT

They all drank water too.



"My friend told me "..... he would also tell you that is just hearsay



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:38am PT
The author first lists the drugs taken by a whole litany of previous shooters and then concludes by asking, "When on earth are we going to find out if the perpetrator of the Sandy Hook school massacre, like so many other mass shooters, had been taking psychiatric drugs?"

Given he seems to have the answer to that question for most all the previous cases save one or two it would appear to me the obvious answer to that question is, "in due course". Phama corps have no way of suppressing that information in a case like this or Aurora; it will come out given the conversation we are now having tackles both aspects of the issue - guns and mental health.

And WND? A veritable compendium of everyone and everything that was wrong with the conservative establishment from Nixon to W and who, quite belatedly, are trying to distance themselves from everything neocon now that their 'Project for THE New American Century' hasn't exactly been panning out the way they envisioned.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:05am PT
First, healyje +1, well said.

Now OP, you're telling me to be shocked and concerned that people with psychiatric problems were taking psychiatric drugs. That's f*#king stupid.

Perhaps you'd rather not have any treatment available for folks? I'm not saying drugs are the end-all-be-all of psych treatment, but for some they are literally life savers. Sure it'd be great if everyone tried counseling and lifestyle changes first, but what if that's not enough?

Next, Pharma companies are nowhere near capable of suppressing something like you are suggesting. I know because I have worked in the industry for many years. Most of my industry colleagues are dedicated wonderful people who are trying to make a positive impact through their work. We are not some super secret society of evil-doers.

Further, like most human organizations pharma companies are barely able to get past internal politics and disorganization to get the basics done. Yes, they do like to settle cases out of court, but that's a whole different league than the nonsense you are suggesting.

Or maybe that's just what I want you all to believe while I'm mixing up my chemtrail formula for Uncle Sam to spray on you.

Edit: BTW, we already have a thread for this:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2029392/America-the-Ignorant-on-topic-for-this-forum
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:56am PT
It's all about money. Always is.

There is no journalism anymore. It's just spoonfed cotton candy and corporate(government... same thing) propaganda for the masses.

So no, there will be no inquiry into pharmaceuticals as MSM's funding in large part comes from them.

This omission is far more than a "gaping hole". It exists(or doesn't I guess) in every single recent mass killing.

This isn't chemtrail or 9/11 inside job-type conspiracy nonsense either. It's just money and greed.

Part of the problem is most people's complete lack of understanding about mental illness. You can see it in this thread already. It's so easy to blame the person taking the drugs in the first place. "They were already crazy"
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:04am PT
And don't forget the inconvenient fact that the VAST VAST majority of people taking those types of drugs - and there are LOTS of them - do not shoot up innocent people.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:31am PT
We all struggle to understand how a person could do what this guy did.

As reasonably normal folks we are hardwired at the deepest levels to protect children.

Something like this completely blows us all away if it happens.. It's like seeing the sun come up black but worse. It goes against everything we are and know.

We struggle to understand how we could have stopped it.

We grasp at everything that could be related.

Meds? Mebbe but obviously there was an underlying mental health issue to say the least. Severe malfunction(s)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:32am PT
Absolutely Crimper,

It's a very complex problems with deep roots in our completely broken healthcare system.

If .001% of those taking those drugs will go insane and kill not only themselves, but sometimes their families, and sometimes masses of innocent strangers, is that something we're ok with as a society?

The drugs do help many. But I, for one, believe they should only be prescribed ONLY by psychiatrists which brings us to our next major problem.

Most "psychiatrists" now do not counsel patients. They are glorifed legal drug dealers. Overpaid prescription pads. 25 years ago they actually would be closely involved with their patients. Now they leave that to the psychologists and social workers to do the tough work (i.e. actually doing the behavioral therapy sessions).

IMO that cannot work. Not with these new psychotropic meds being pumped out at a furious pace.

Christ we have pediatricians and GP's prescribing these things now.

And I have personally seen the damage they can do to a previously normal person. It's not a joke. One of the scariest things I've ever seen. Someone went from being 'treated' for seasonal depression(with no prior mental problems) to a full-on raging psychotic break. It took over 2 weeks to happen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:54am PT
It would be sure helpful if you could attempt to get your point across with a less 'liberal' application of fringe conservative memes.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Why do you think all those suicide bombers do what they do?


BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO TAKE THEIR MEDS!!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:52am PT
SSRI Stories compiles scare stories from media sources in an attempt to show that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are too dangerous to be on the market. Most of these stories involve murders, school shootings, suicides, and assorted atrocities committed by people who were taking SSRIs, as if this proves that the drugs, and not pre-existing mental conditions, caused the people to commit such actions. I'm not going to go into the whole SSRI controversy here; I'll just say that I believe the severe side effects that concern Henderson and others are rare, can be detected early with proper supervision, and are not sufficient reason to dismiss the beneficial effects that many people receive from this class of drugs.

It is Henderson's contention that SSRIs don't treat depression; they cause mental illness and homicidal behaviour.

Henderson pointed out that O.J. Simpson was on antidepressants. So was Phil Hartman's wife. As Jones has pointed out many times, several school shooters were on antidepressants. In fact, said Henderson, "We didn't have these school shootings until 1988, when Prozac came out." She identifies the first school shooter as Laurie Dann, a troubled young Jewish woman who shot several elementary-school students in Illinois. Surprisingly, Jones did not jump in to speculate that the ADL put Dann up to it.

This statement tells me that Betty Henderson is not well-acquainted with her subject of choice. Here are just a few of the school massacres that occurred prior to 1988 (you'll find many more at Wikipedia):

 1891: The first "motiveless" U.S. school shooting was much like those that followed, though the shooter remains the oldest on record (70). James Foster fired on several boys in a school playground in Newburgh, New York.

 1927: A disgruntled janitor bombed a school in Bath Township, Ohio. This is still the largest school massacre in U.S. history, and it occurred a full 64 years before Prozac hit the market. [corrections: actually, the bomber was a maintenance man, and a member of the school board, and the bombing occurred 59 years before Prozac was introduced in parts of Europe.]

 1940: The vice principal of South Pasadena Junior High summoned school district officials to a meeting in his office. Then he killed five of them with his .22 pistol, permanently injured a sixth, and shot himself. He didn't die, but he always insisted that he couldn't remember his own actions on what came to be known as "the Monday Massacre". His psychiatrist, however, concluded that Verlin Spencer viewed himself as an educational crusader and staged a near-suicide so he could "remain the center of attention, commanding that position in a grisly triumph over imaginary enemies." Whether this explanation has any validity or not, Verlin Spencer was one messed-up dude... without SSRIs.

 1966: Charles Whitman ascended the belltower at the University of Texas and sprayed bullets onto the campus, killing and wounding numerous students. This occurred in Austin, Alex Jones' base of operations.

 1975: Ottawa teenager Robert Poulin raped and murdered a neighbor girl, set fire to his house, then shot up a school.

 1979: Teenage Brenda Spencer fired on kids and teachers at a school across the street from her home. Her explanation for why she did it has become almost as famous as the mountaineers' standby "because it was there": "I don't like Mondays."

 Though Marc Lepine murdered students at Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique in 1989, it's fairly obvious from his suicide note that he had been contemplating such an action for a long time, possibly as early as 1984, when Denis Lortie went on a killing spree at the National Assembly of Quebec.

Not only were none of these shooters on SSRIs, they weren't on any psych meds whatsoever. But Jones actually said, "There hasn't been a high-profile mass shooting that didn't involve SSRIs." Well, except for the Tsuyama massacre of 1938, the 1949 rampage of Harold Unruh, the Neptune Moving Company massacre by neo-Nazi Fred Cowan in 1977, the shopping mall attack by Sylvia Seegrist in 1985, the Hungerford massacre that occurred a year before Prozac was introduced, and countless others.

Though much has been made of Columbine shooter Eric Harris being on Luvox, Dylan Klebold was not on any psych meds. What's his excuse?
Harris was psychiatrically evaluated after committing vandalism and theft, and his diagnosis stemmed from that evaluation. Are you telling me he would have been a law-abiding, well-adjusted kid if not for Luvox? Get real.

Laurie Dann was on psychiatric meds - not including Prozac - for a chemical imbalance at the time of her death, but her bizarre behaviour began years earlier. She terroristically stalked boyfriends and an ex-husband, made false reports of rape and violent attacks, and hid rotting meat in her living-room couch.

Henderson went on to tell listeners that Andrea Yates and the other Texas mothers who mutilated and murdered their young children were perfectly fine until their doctors prescribed SSRIs. She makes no mention of the postpartum depression and/or postpartum psychosis that led to those drugs being prescribed in the first place. In fact, she repeated the absurd notion that the Texas Mother's Act was not designed as a screening system to catch early symptoms of post-partum depression and treat the mothers suffering from it, hopefully to prevent more drownings and dismemberment, but is simply "an excuse to get moms on drugs". Jones piped in here to say that doctors are trying to convince women that having babies isn't natural; you need to be on drugs to do it.

Not exactly. Texas, for some crazy reason, has a high incidence of post-partum psychotic violence against infants, toddlers, and their older siblings. I can't begin to understand why this is so, but I commend the state for taking some action to help women with post-partum depression.

Jones made an even weirder statement about women and psych meds: "Doctors are trying to convince women you're not supposed to have a regular period. They'll say, 'You need an SSRI for that.'"

There are birth-control pills that reduce monthly periods to about 4 per year. However, SSRIs have no effect upon the menstrual cycle. At all. And no doctor says they do.

Ms. Henderson offered a few alternatives to SSRIs, including dirt: "Dirt is an antidepressant!" So if you garden, you won't be depressed anymore! Even though you can only garden for a few months out of the year in most parts of North America. Even though depression often hits most severely in the winter months. Even though Henderson did not identify the psychoactive ingredients in dirt.
Maybe you could freeze some dirt and make mudpies in December.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
To one of fear's points:

...with proper supervision...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
But Jones actually said, "There hasn't been a high-profile mass shooting that didn't involve SSRIs."

What about all those Nazis, Jews and ditches? I guess all the Germans were on SSRIs.

Wait, Wounded Knee anyone? The US Cavalry was on SSRIs too?


My Lai?

Oh sorry, I forgot those were all sanctioned sporting events.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Oh sorry, I forgot those were all sanctioned sporting events.



Best line of the year so far!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
I heard the shooters had access to Guns!!!

Why aren't they talking about the Guns!!

Remember, not everyone that has guns shoots up the place
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
Thank you survival, crimpie, and others. While I agree with Riley that SSRI's can be overprescribed, and am particularly skeptical of their utility with teenagers and younger, I think the greater danger is to discourage those who would benefit from their use.

I, for one, probably owe my life to the effectiveness of the SSRI I have had prescribed for the last seven years. Of course the pharmaceutical companies make money off of it. They should, because they provide what is, for me, an absolutely essential product.

In a way, saying that mentally ill murderers were taking medication is a little like pointing out that someone killed in a high-speed head-on collision was wearing a seat belt and shoulder harness. What would you prefer -- that they not be buckled up? Since all SSRI's are available here only by prescription, I'd rather take my chances with the docs' prescriptions than with the lack of medication, thank you.

John
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#281936
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
The whole problem has to do with the decline in psychiatry as the scientific materialist biochemical metaphor takes over the profession. Today, a psychiatrist uses Prozac simply to wall paper over an emotional problem, instead of dealing directly with the underlying causes of depression, anxiety, and internalized rage. Unfortunately, if you use psychotropic drugs to mask depression or anxiety, it'll manifest in some other set of symptoms or, worse, maladaptive behavior problems. It's a lot cheaper and more profitable to prescribe a new drug to eliminate a socially inappropriate or self-destructive state of mind. However, that doesn't mean the underlying emotional problem goes away, instead it shows up eventually in another set of symptoms. This is called "symptom substitution" and is indicative of bad medicine that doesn't really address and cure mental health problems. Very few psychiatrists ask a patient today what's going on in their personal lives. Instead, if you say you're anxious or depressed, they just hand you a script for a new designer drug and send you packing out the door and onto the streets. But treating problems relating to the social environment in families, schools and out on the streets is a very expensive proposition that so far remains largely unsolved.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Bruce M, I think you're simplifying a bit too much. My physician also insisted that I go both to a neurologist (to determine what organically may be wrong) and to a therapist. In my case, the depression was entirely endogenous. It had nothing to do with life, other than chemistry.

Nonetheless, the medical professionals made sure I had a therapist to deal with the life issues that inevitably result from depression, whatever the cause. There was no short cut on that.

I think the danger comes from patients, perhaps influenced by advertising, thinking that all they need to do is pop a pill to make their blues go away. I see this particularly with parents of adolescents having the sorts of problems we all overcome in the process of growing up. They demand that their physician prescribe the miracle drugs they heard will "solve" the problem, rather than trying to understand and act upon the difference between a medical condition and a non-medical behavioral issue.

In my case, I did a great deal of damage to myself, my family and my clients before I finally sought medical help. Once the medical condition was resolved, I still needed to deal with repairing that damage. This required the help of a clinical psychologist, not just medication.

Medication nonetheless remains a key part of the picture. It's just not the only part.

John
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
The whole problem has to do with the decline in psychiatry as the scientific materialist biochemical metaphor takes over the profession.

Been to a lot of psychiatrists over the last 40 years, eh?
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