"The giant gaping hole in Sandy Hook reporting"

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Messages 41 - 60 of total 73 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
If we could, let's leave the firearm discussion out of this thread. There are plenty of other threads to beat that horse to death on.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?

Because they clearly don't cause everyone to kill themselves. Only a certain percentage, and a much higher percentage in certain age groups. If you think of how many lives needed to be destroyed before those black box warnings they currently have were added, it's disturbing.

There are plenty of people born with certain mental maladies that a COMBINATION of long-term counseling and very selective and carefully monitored drug use might help.

The problem began in earnest around the time direct-to-consumer advertising started on TV. Those checks and balances were largely removed and the pill faucet was left on.

Then you have the 7-year run before generics swipe away their profits. So the push is always to have guinea pigs (us) on the latest expensive crap when the older crap might have worked just as well but nobody is getting a bonus to prescribe that.






John M

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?
..

This is difficult to explain but one cause is that it gives people who have suicidal ideation more energy right when the depression hits the strongest.

You have a person with depression and suicidal ideation. One aspect of suicidal ideation is that you feel hopeless about ever feeling good again. Without anti depressants one would mostly likely get to this point, but now be so depressed that they don't even have the energy to plan how to kill themselves. But with anti depressants you often do have more energy. ( please don't think this means that everyone who takes anti depressants has more energy )

So a person is depressed. This leads to feeling hopeless, this can lead to suicidal ideation. Along comes a doctor who offers hope of relief from the depression in the form of a pill. Maybe even for a time the pill works, and then either it starts to quit working or side effects start building up and the decision is made to come off of the medicine. Now the person is feeling that lack of hope again and the suicidal ideation comes into play again, but now the person has more energy due to still having the drug in their system. That energy allows them to plan a method and perhaps carry it out.

There is more to it, but that can be one part..

My credentials..

Lifetime of dealing with depression. I'm 54.
8 years on anti depressants. I have probably taken over 30 different meds for this problem. I have had just about every side effect that you could imagine.

One thing about psychiatrists not doing the counseling has to do with cost. Psychiatrists tend to cost more per hour. Its cheaper to see a psychiatrist for the meds and see a counselor for the therapy. But then you run into insurances that won't cover both. They will pay for one or the other, but not both together. MIne didn't. So my psychiatrist did my therapy even though it cost them and me more. I even wrote them and explained how it would be cheaper, but they still refused.

John M

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
The side effects of SSRI's are very well-known, and almost all physicians are careful for that reason.

Thats not been my experience either. I have had to explain to many physicians the side effects of drugs they were prescribing me. One of the disadvantages of being poor is having to change doctors a lot. At one time I had a steady job and decent insurance. Then the depression made that impossible and I started a series of different doctors. Thankfully now I have a steady doctor. One who seems to know his stuff. Though I have had to explain a bunch of stuff to him too.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
I'd really like to chime in on this thread, but due to certain legal issues regarding someone close to me, am unable to do so.

But...as a chemical/biochemical professional with over 45 years in the field of manufacturing starting materials for the Pharma companies, the FDA doesn't really have any more of a clue than anyone else.

My bottom line statement is: misuse of psychotropic drugs is a major problem, and many patients using them should NOT be running around loose in society. Also, I've heard from other parents that their elementary school counsellors were demanding that their childern be put on Ritalin. They (counsellors) are trying to prescribe the effects wanted, and without an MD being the prescriber!
DanaB

climber
CT
Jan 10, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
My bottom line statement is: misuse of psychotropic drugs is a major problem, and many patients using them should NOT be running around loose in society

Would you provide us with some data?
Would you define misuse?
Seeing as the pyschotropics are so widely used and many (what is many, by the way) patients who take them should not be "running around loose in society," what should be done? Seems like a big problem.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 10, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
psychotropic drugs

Alcohol. Opiates. Cocaine. Methamphetamines, of all kinds. Tobacco and marijuana, a bit.

And that's not even including most prescription drugs.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Good point MH... I should be specifying prescription psychotropic meds...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Also, if your son is receiving major psychiatric treatment, then it might make sense to NOT take him to the gun range for entertainment. And when it then gets down to the point of thinking about having him committed, it might be a good time to get the f*#king guns out of the house.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
As I said earlier, due to legal constraints and the "Hipo laws" I can't give you the most persuasive arguement. But the individual concerned is NOT running around in society.

Added in "Edit." HealyJE. If the individual is ready to be committed, best simply keep the guns in a gun vault--the way I do. Better yet, get the individual committed so they get proper treatment.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
She was having him committed and that's likely what tipped him over the edge, but of course, as a frequent range-goer, she was so infatuated with her involvement in the gun culture she obviously couldn't bring herself to secure the weapons in a time of crisis.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 10, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
We don't know what treatment Adam was receiving. That's been conveniently left to the rumor mill. Relatives say he was being medicated but further investigation simply stops.

Just because she was raising an autistic child does not mean he was a threat from that condition alone. Your falling into the trap the pharma companies love and frankly what makes me a little pissed.

Depressed people are not violent and psychotic. Autistic people are generally not violent nor are they psychotic. There are a thousand very serious mental conditions that do NOT lapse into violent psychosis.

Clearly if you have a violent disturbed child or adult living with you that extra precautions must be taken with not just firearms, but knives, cord, and poison. Even then you're just buying a small amount of extra time if they decide to act. We have no idea what was going on in that house in Newtown.

There are no 'reported' indications Adam was previously violent. There were no indications the Oregon mall shooter had ANY prior incidents... Likewise the Aurora guy had no record and was definitely seeing a psychiatrist for several months. So at least we know for certain he was taking a variety of meds, or perhaps cutoff from them recently, even worse. In some recent story of the Aurora trial a cop said no blood was drawn from Jessie after the shooting since he "didn't seem like he was on anything". That's just great.

These new drugs 'can' cause these things. All I want to see in a serious investigation into it. Billions of dollars say I won't ever see that.

Instead most will just assume crazies are crazies and deal with the aftermath.






Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
The guidelines used by the FDA in evaluation of INDs (Investigational New Drugs) and progressing through clinical trials seldom involve study of long term possible side effects. It costs roughly $300,000,000 to get a new drug through all the administrative paperwork and the necessary trials now. Some drugs would never make it to market after 6-7 years of trials if these long term studies were mandatory. That's why we seldom hear about the drugs quietly removed from the market after several years of use; long term use reveals problems not discovered in the trials.

I for one, am waiting, forewarned, for that 4+ hour erection from Cialis! ;)
PRRose

climber
Boulder
Jan 10, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
Steve,

WND--the source of your link--is one of the sleaziest, stupidest "news" sites on the web. I wouldn't believe a thing they publish.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
This is difficult to explain but one cause is that it gives people who have suicidal ideation more energy right when the depression hits the strongest.

John M. hits the nail on the head. That's why my (mental) health care professionals monitored me almost daily when I first was diagnosed. When I first went in, I was too depressed to act on any idea, good or bad. Regaining the ability to turn thoughts into action -- something I'd taken for granted for decades -- brings about real dangers that require careful attention.

It sounds like I was very fortunate in a lot of ways from the accounts of other posters on this thread.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
So NOW,, today :





An AR-15, or the so-called "Assault Weapon", was not used in the school shooting. The shooter even tried weeks earlier to buy a rifle but was turned down in the background check. So he had to kill his Mother to steal her rifle. There were initial reports, right after the shooting, that police found the AR-15 in his car, NOT IN THE SCHOOL. The rifle was not used. The shooter went into the school with 4 handguns, NOT an Assault Rifle as the media has charged. I remember in the initial hours of this shooting, the Police said they found the rifle in the car. But the Administration-controlled MSM had a pre-planned attack already waiting, to ban so-called assault weapons and jumped on that line of reporting, knowing it was a lie, which included people like Piers Morgan who said the shooter used an AR-15 that shoots hundreds of rounds per minute, as if it were a machine gun. Could it be that the Democrat Liberals and THEIR MEDIA were pushing for the new law, hoping they could do it, before the Coroner released the info? Absolutely.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
^^gullible and paranoid^^
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Hmmm,, well the Coroner lied thrpough his teeth,, reporters lied through theirs,, and the media the local POPO and the gubbmint went right along with it.. They are lying baztards one and all.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Source?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?401691-Breaking-news-NO-RIFLES-Used-In-Sandy-Hook-Shooting-Only-Handguns


among MANY others..
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