"The giant gaping hole in Sandy Hook reporting"

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Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
Philo, that is a very interesting point. Must put on the boob thread.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Been to a lot of psychiatrists over the last 40 years, eh?

Not one. But I do work with a lot of psychiatrists, many of whom complain loud and long about the indiscriminate dispensing of psychotropic drugs to patients as if masking an emotional problem with chemicals does anything to cure their underlying mental problems. Every teacher notices that kids with ADD come from conflicted dysfunctional families, but it's a lot cheaper and more convenient to dose pupils with ADD than to address the fundamental social problems behind their symptoms. We're just not prepared as a society to reallocate our resources to really solve the problem at the family and street levels. Would cut into the profit margin for sure.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
It's cheaper and they make more money to alter your mind then to fix the problem.

When I moved out of my parents' house at 13 because I didn't want to be around alcohol, my grandmother made me go see a few psychologists. The one that I first saw, I didn't want to talk to. All I said was I'm happier now than there, and I didn't need to be around the alcohol. She was angry, and was very rude, kept telling me to stop being a brat and listen to my parents. She was a Kaiser Psychologist. I was insured. She prescribed me after 20 minutes to Prozak.

After a week of taking it I felt horrible. Couldn't think. Felt cloudy. Mood swings. I stopped it.

The second I saw, was a private party. I was a husband and wife, both psychologists, both lived and operated out of the same house. They saw I was normal, and said see ya, good luck, if you need anything just call. $125 hour visits.

Over-prescribing of medications to anyone is an epidemic. Not guns.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
To compare people experiencing violent psychotic breaks to Nazis is foolish.
But not as foolish as Alex Jones claiming on TV that ALL mass shooters were on these drugs. Did you not see my post that listed so many examples of mass shootings that had nothing to do with SSRIs? No, I don't mean the Nazi/Wounded Knee quip.
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
Can we hope that 2012 was the end of the gun free zones? There should not be any place where a nutjob can attempt mass murder where he cannot expect someone to pull a concealed carry and send return fire.

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
The side effects of SSRI's are very well-known, and almost all physicians are careful for that reason.

Unfortunately that's not what I have seen. GPs are prescribing them with very little knowledge and providing very little education to their patients. I know two people who were prescribed the wrong SSRIs and it made their problems WAY worse. They later switched to the correct SSRI for their chemistry and they did much better, but they were lucky. It could have been a very bad situation for either of them if they continued on the wrong meds. These meds should only be prescribed by psychiatrists but there aren't enough psychiatrists around unfortuneatly.

If you have someone who is borderline psychotic and they are put on the wrong meds for them I could easily see it leading to a horrific situation.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
That's the point, Ron, the psychotropic drugs don't really work, but they do make it easier for parents, teacher and social workers to "manage" problem children while they're "under the influence". A lot of people are worrying out loud these days about the long-term effects on students who have been regularly dosed on Ritalin for years just to make it easier for "professionals" to control and manage them in the classroom and elsewhere.

And, of course, there's always the example of Winston Churchill whose mother was a professional beauty (i.e. high-class whore with tons of younger BFs) and a dad sick to death in the head with syphilis. Young Winnie was carted off to private schools so he didn't interfere with his mother's trysts while his father slowly went crazy and died. Winston kept writing pathetic letters to his parents crying to see his mom and meet with his dad for approval. No such luck! And Winston grew up to become PM and lead the free-world in a crusade against Hitler and the Nazis. Of course, Winnie was a raging alcoholic who was haunted by depression all his life, something he called his "black beast". Obsessive-compulsive over-achievers often accomplish a lot while they wrestle with depression and alcoholism. That's not to say they have a world of fun!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?
....
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
gaping hole: our culture has run far amok in many ways. report that
DanaB

climber
CT
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
Ron,

Do you know how that information is gathered?

By the way, if you're interested I could send you a copy of a short (approximately 4000 word) monograph I recently wrote about these drugs. There is also a good review article (2012, I believe) on the SSRIs I could direct you to.


Dana
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
If we could, let's leave the firearm discussion out of this thread. There are plenty of other threads to beat that horse to death on.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?

Because they clearly don't cause everyone to kill themselves. Only a certain percentage, and a much higher percentage in certain age groups. If you think of how many lives needed to be destroyed before those black box warnings they currently have were added, it's disturbing.

There are plenty of people born with certain mental maladies that a COMBINATION of long-term counseling and very selective and carefully monitored drug use might help.

The problem began in earnest around the time direct-to-consumer advertising started on TV. Those checks and balances were largely removed and the pill faucet was left on.

Then you have the 7-year run before generics swipe away their profits. So the push is always to have guinea pigs (us) on the latest expensive crap when the older crap might have worked just as well but nobody is getting a bonus to prescribe that.






John M

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?
..

This is difficult to explain but one cause is that it gives people who have suicidal ideation more energy right when the depression hits the strongest.

You have a person with depression and suicidal ideation. One aspect of suicidal ideation is that you feel hopeless about ever feeling good again. Without anti depressants one would mostly likely get to this point, but now be so depressed that they don't even have the energy to plan how to kill themselves. But with anti depressants you often do have more energy. ( please don't think this means that everyone who takes anti depressants has more energy )

So a person is depressed. This leads to feeling hopeless, this can lead to suicidal ideation. Along comes a doctor who offers hope of relief from the depression in the form of a pill. Maybe even for a time the pill works, and then either it starts to quit working or side effects start building up and the decision is made to come off of the medicine. Now the person is feeling that lack of hope again and the suicidal ideation comes into play again, but now the person has more energy due to still having the drug in their system. That energy allows them to plan a method and perhaps carry it out.

There is more to it, but that can be one part..

My credentials..

Lifetime of dealing with depression. I'm 54.
8 years on anti depressants. I have probably taken over 30 different meds for this problem. I have had just about every side effect that you could imagine.

One thing about psychiatrists not doing the counseling has to do with cost. Psychiatrists tend to cost more per hour. Its cheaper to see a psychiatrist for the meds and see a counselor for the therapy. But then you run into insurances that won't cover both. They will pay for one or the other, but not both together. MIne didn't. So my psychiatrist did my therapy even though it cost them and me more. I even wrote them and explained how it would be cheaper, but they still refused.

John M

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
The side effects of SSRI's are very well-known, and almost all physicians are careful for that reason.

Thats not been my experience either. I have had to explain to many physicians the side effects of drugs they were prescribing me. One of the disadvantages of being poor is having to change doctors a lot. At one time I had a steady job and decent insurance. Then the depression made that impossible and I started a series of different doctors. Thankfully now I have a steady doctor. One who seems to know his stuff. Though I have had to explain a bunch of stuff to him too.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
I'd really like to chime in on this thread, but due to certain legal issues regarding someone close to me, am unable to do so.

But...as a chemical/biochemical professional with over 45 years in the field of manufacturing starting materials for the Pharma companies, the FDA doesn't really have any more of a clue than anyone else.

My bottom line statement is: misuse of psychotropic drugs is a major problem, and many patients using them should NOT be running around loose in society. Also, I've heard from other parents that their elementary school counsellors were demanding that their childern be put on Ritalin. They (counsellors) are trying to prescribe the effects wanted, and without an MD being the prescriber!
DanaB

climber
CT
Jan 10, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
My bottom line statement is: misuse of psychotropic drugs is a major problem, and many patients using them should NOT be running around loose in society

Would you provide us with some data?
Would you define misuse?
Seeing as the pyschotropics are so widely used and many (what is many, by the way) patients who take them should not be "running around loose in society," what should be done? Seems like a big problem.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 10, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
psychotropic drugs

Alcohol. Opiates. Cocaine. Methamphetamines, of all kinds. Tobacco and marijuana, a bit.

And that's not even including most prescription drugs.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 10, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
Good point MH... I should be specifying prescription psychotropic meds...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 10, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Also, if your son is receiving major psychiatric treatment, then it might make sense to NOT take him to the gun range for entertainment. And when it then gets down to the point of thinking about having him committed, it might be a good time to get the f*#king guns out of the house.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
As I said earlier, due to legal constraints and the "Hipo laws" I can't give you the most persuasive arguement. But the individual concerned is NOT running around in society.

Added in "Edit." HealyJE. If the individual is ready to be committed, best simply keep the guns in a gun vault--the way I do. Better yet, get the individual committed so they get proper treatment.
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