"The giant gaping hole in Sandy Hook reporting"

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steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2013 - 05:08am PT
I started this thread since it might get over-looked on the very lengthy thread already on S.T.

An old climbing mate sent me this info. yesterday. He works for a law firm which has been involved with previous court cases involving shootings, where the crazed shooter had been taking drugs,; such as Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac etc.

My friend told me that he knows in several cases, the big drug firms, behind closed doors, payed off the right people, to prevent big law suits.

Here is the article:

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/the-giant-gaping-hole-in-sandy-hook-reporting
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:27am PT

They all drank water too.



"My friend told me "..... he would also tell you that is just hearsay



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:38am PT
The author first lists the drugs taken by a whole litany of previous shooters and then concludes by asking, "When on earth are we going to find out if the perpetrator of the Sandy Hook school massacre, like so many other mass shooters, had been taking psychiatric drugs?"

Given he seems to have the answer to that question for most all the previous cases save one or two it would appear to me the obvious answer to that question is, "in due course". Phama corps have no way of suppressing that information in a case like this or Aurora; it will come out given the conversation we are now having tackles both aspects of the issue - guns and mental health.

And WND? A veritable compendium of everyone and everything that was wrong with the conservative establishment from Nixon to W and who, quite belatedly, are trying to distance themselves from everything neocon now that their 'Project for THE New American Century' hasn't exactly been panning out the way they envisioned.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:05am PT
First, healyje +1, well said.

Now OP, you're telling me to be shocked and concerned that people with psychiatric problems were taking psychiatric drugs. That's f*#king stupid.

Perhaps you'd rather not have any treatment available for folks? I'm not saying drugs are the end-all-be-all of psych treatment, but for some they are literally life savers. Sure it'd be great if everyone tried counseling and lifestyle changes first, but what if that's not enough?

Next, Pharma companies are nowhere near capable of suppressing something like you are suggesting. I know because I have worked in the industry for many years. Most of my industry colleagues are dedicated wonderful people who are trying to make a positive impact through their work. We are not some super secret society of evil-doers.

Further, like most human organizations pharma companies are barely able to get past internal politics and disorganization to get the basics done. Yes, they do like to settle cases out of court, but that's a whole different league than the nonsense you are suggesting.

Or maybe that's just what I want you all to believe while I'm mixing up my chemtrail formula for Uncle Sam to spray on you.

Edit: BTW, we already have a thread for this:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2029392/America-the-Ignorant-on-topic-for-this-forum
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:56am PT
It's all about money. Always is.

There is no journalism anymore. It's just spoonfed cotton candy and corporate(government... same thing) propaganda for the masses.

So no, there will be no inquiry into pharmaceuticals as MSM's funding in large part comes from them.

This omission is far more than a "gaping hole". It exists(or doesn't I guess) in every single recent mass killing.

This isn't chemtrail or 9/11 inside job-type conspiracy nonsense either. It's just money and greed.

Part of the problem is most people's complete lack of understanding about mental illness. You can see it in this thread already. It's so easy to blame the person taking the drugs in the first place. "They were already crazy"
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:04am PT
And don't forget the inconvenient fact that the VAST VAST majority of people taking those types of drugs - and there are LOTS of them - do not shoot up innocent people.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:25am PT
There is no question these drugs have been highly over prescribed and the docs have not had a clue how mood affective and dangerous they can be. I have had to step in many times as some quack throws an SSRI prescription at a young teenager while she in seen in fastrack - it's seriously f*#ked.

There are even differences with how different labs put the same drugs together. Some generics are powder, others crystal, some batches cleaner, etc..You do not want to be on these drugs unless you really need to be and you are aware that the mood changes you feel, at first, are caused by the drug working or not working, and not your life ending. You need to have been given a good education on mood, what you feel, how natural brain chemicals and pills/drugs can make you feel worse and better, etc...how it all works..so dangerous and many just do not know this stuff.
You would not believe how many people I see in a night who do not know that they have been arrested, or in a fight, depressed, etc, because they drank booze - lol - The do not see the link until you sit down and teach them that booze is a depressant and the reason they are handcuffed and crying right now is because you consumed this substance..lol

Although these meds can certainly cause all kinds of rebound mood changes as you are going off them and on them and they definitely can lead to suicide. They generally do not cause psychotic breaks - these killers are having full on psychotic breaks - they are very sick - the fact that they are also on meds is just a part of their disease and it does not mean causation.
There is serious type amygdala violence issues going on with these killers as well as schizophrenia in most cases.
There are exceptions of course - but all the big name killers lately have been extremely demented and psychotic - depression has not been the primary issue.
There is a huge fundamental issue and difference between depression and psychosis that needs to be understood - yet that doesn't mean you can't and will not have both.

It's complicated sh#t that takes years to get a feel for. Ya got to love some guy, like that schizo on CNN the other night, rambling off about Hitler and all kinds of paranoid stuff and then talking about complex pharmacology and mental illness out of the other side of his mouth -I think the guy literally dropped out of his first semester of community college and probably doesn't even have a CPR card.

At any rate - this issue is in every country - it's another bullshit tangent by wack job NRA types to cover up for the fact that sh#t tons of assault weapons laying around is a bad thing - gun culture is bad...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:31am PT
We all struggle to understand how a person could do what this guy did.

As reasonably normal folks we are hardwired at the deepest levels to protect children.

Something like this completely blows us all away if it happens.. It's like seeing the sun come up black but worse. It goes against everything we are and know.

We struggle to understand how we could have stopped it.

We grasp at everything that could be related.

Meds? Mebbe but obviously there was an underlying mental health issue to say the least. Severe malfunction(s)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:32am PT
Absolutely Crimper,

It's a very complex problems with deep roots in our completely broken healthcare system.

If .001% of those taking those drugs will go insane and kill not only themselves, but sometimes their families, and sometimes masses of innocent strangers, is that something we're ok with as a society?

The drugs do help many. But I, for one, believe they should only be prescribed ONLY by psychiatrists which brings us to our next major problem.

Most "psychiatrists" now do not counsel patients. They are glorifed legal drug dealers. Overpaid prescription pads. 25 years ago they actually would be closely involved with their patients. Now they leave that to the psychologists and social workers to do the tough work (i.e. actually doing the behavioral therapy sessions).

IMO that cannot work. Not with these new psychotropic meds being pumped out at a furious pace.

Christ we have pediatricians and GP's prescribing these things now.

And I have personally seen the damage they can do to a previously normal person. It's not a joke. One of the scariest things I've ever seen. Someone went from being 'treated' for seasonal depression(with no prior mental problems) to a full-on raging psychotic break. It took over 2 weeks to happen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:54am PT
It would be sure helpful if you could attempt to get your point across with a less 'liberal' application of fringe conservative memes.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:47am PT
Why do you think all those suicide bombers do what they do?


BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO TAKE THEIR MEDS!!!!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:52am PT
SSRI Stories compiles scare stories from media sources in an attempt to show that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are too dangerous to be on the market. Most of these stories involve murders, school shootings, suicides, and assorted atrocities committed by people who were taking SSRIs, as if this proves that the drugs, and not pre-existing mental conditions, caused the people to commit such actions. I'm not going to go into the whole SSRI controversy here; I'll just say that I believe the severe side effects that concern Henderson and others are rare, can be detected early with proper supervision, and are not sufficient reason to dismiss the beneficial effects that many people receive from this class of drugs.

It is Henderson's contention that SSRIs don't treat depression; they cause mental illness and homicidal behaviour.

Henderson pointed out that O.J. Simpson was on antidepressants. So was Phil Hartman's wife. As Jones has pointed out many times, several school shooters were on antidepressants. In fact, said Henderson, "We didn't have these school shootings until 1988, when Prozac came out." She identifies the first school shooter as Laurie Dann, a troubled young Jewish woman who shot several elementary-school students in Illinois. Surprisingly, Jones did not jump in to speculate that the ADL put Dann up to it.

This statement tells me that Betty Henderson is not well-acquainted with her subject of choice. Here are just a few of the school massacres that occurred prior to 1988 (you'll find many more at Wikipedia):

 1891: The first "motiveless" U.S. school shooting was much like those that followed, though the shooter remains the oldest on record (70). James Foster fired on several boys in a school playground in Newburgh, New York.

 1927: A disgruntled janitor bombed a school in Bath Township, Ohio. This is still the largest school massacre in U.S. history, and it occurred a full 64 years before Prozac hit the market. [corrections: actually, the bomber was a maintenance man, and a member of the school board, and the bombing occurred 59 years before Prozac was introduced in parts of Europe.]

 1940: The vice principal of South Pasadena Junior High summoned school district officials to a meeting in his office. Then he killed five of them with his .22 pistol, permanently injured a sixth, and shot himself. He didn't die, but he always insisted that he couldn't remember his own actions on what came to be known as "the Monday Massacre". His psychiatrist, however, concluded that Verlin Spencer viewed himself as an educational crusader and staged a near-suicide so he could "remain the center of attention, commanding that position in a grisly triumph over imaginary enemies." Whether this explanation has any validity or not, Verlin Spencer was one messed-up dude... without SSRIs.

 1966: Charles Whitman ascended the belltower at the University of Texas and sprayed bullets onto the campus, killing and wounding numerous students. This occurred in Austin, Alex Jones' base of operations.

 1975: Ottawa teenager Robert Poulin raped and murdered a neighbor girl, set fire to his house, then shot up a school.

 1979: Teenage Brenda Spencer fired on kids and teachers at a school across the street from her home. Her explanation for why she did it has become almost as famous as the mountaineers' standby "because it was there": "I don't like Mondays."

 Though Marc Lepine murdered students at Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique in 1989, it's fairly obvious from his suicide note that he had been contemplating such an action for a long time, possibly as early as 1984, when Denis Lortie went on a killing spree at the National Assembly of Quebec.

Not only were none of these shooters on SSRIs, they weren't on any psych meds whatsoever. But Jones actually said, "There hasn't been a high-profile mass shooting that didn't involve SSRIs." Well, except for the Tsuyama massacre of 1938, the 1949 rampage of Harold Unruh, the Neptune Moving Company massacre by neo-Nazi Fred Cowan in 1977, the shopping mall attack by Sylvia Seegrist in 1985, the Hungerford massacre that occurred a year before Prozac was introduced, and countless others.

Though much has been made of Columbine shooter Eric Harris being on Luvox, Dylan Klebold was not on any psych meds. What's his excuse?
Harris was psychiatrically evaluated after committing vandalism and theft, and his diagnosis stemmed from that evaluation. Are you telling me he would have been a law-abiding, well-adjusted kid if not for Luvox? Get real.

Laurie Dann was on psychiatric meds - not including Prozac - for a chemical imbalance at the time of her death, but her bizarre behaviour began years earlier. She terroristically stalked boyfriends and an ex-husband, made false reports of rape and violent attacks, and hid rotting meat in her living-room couch.

Henderson went on to tell listeners that Andrea Yates and the other Texas mothers who mutilated and murdered their young children were perfectly fine until their doctors prescribed SSRIs. She makes no mention of the postpartum depression and/or postpartum psychosis that led to those drugs being prescribed in the first place. In fact, she repeated the absurd notion that the Texas Mother's Act was not designed as a screening system to catch early symptoms of post-partum depression and treat the mothers suffering from it, hopefully to prevent more drownings and dismemberment, but is simply "an excuse to get moms on drugs". Jones piped in here to say that doctors are trying to convince women that having babies isn't natural; you need to be on drugs to do it.

Not exactly. Texas, for some crazy reason, has a high incidence of post-partum psychotic violence against infants, toddlers, and their older siblings. I can't begin to understand why this is so, but I commend the state for taking some action to help women with post-partum depression.

Jones made an even weirder statement about women and psych meds: "Doctors are trying to convince women you're not supposed to have a regular period. They'll say, 'You need an SSRI for that.'"

There are birth-control pills that reduce monthly periods to about 4 per year. However, SSRIs have no effect upon the menstrual cycle. At all. And no doctor says they do.

Ms. Henderson offered a few alternatives to SSRIs, including dirt: "Dirt is an antidepressant!" So if you garden, you won't be depressed anymore! Even though you can only garden for a few months out of the year in most parts of North America. Even though depression often hits most severely in the winter months. Even though Henderson did not identify the psychoactive ingredients in dirt.
Maybe you could freeze some dirt and make mudpies in December.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:01am PT
To one of fear's points:

...with proper supervision...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:13am PT
But Jones actually said, "There hasn't been a high-profile mass shooting that didn't involve SSRIs."

What about all those Nazis, Jews and ditches? I guess all the Germans were on SSRIs.

Wait, Wounded Knee anyone? The US Cavalry was on SSRIs too?


My Lai?

Oh sorry, I forgot those were all sanctioned sporting events.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:22am PT
Oh sorry, I forgot those were all sanctioned sporting events.



Best line of the year so far!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:25am PT
I heard the shooters had access to Guns!!!

Why aren't they talking about the Guns!!

Remember, not everyone that has guns shoots up the place
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:33am PT
Thank you survival, crimpie, and others. While I agree with Riley that SSRI's can be overprescribed, and am particularly skeptical of their utility with teenagers and younger, I think the greater danger is to discourage those who would benefit from their use.

I, for one, probably owe my life to the effectiveness of the SSRI I have had prescribed for the last seven years. Of course the pharmaceutical companies make money off of it. They should, because they provide what is, for me, an absolutely essential product.

In a way, saying that mentally ill murderers were taking medication is a little like pointing out that someone killed in a high-speed head-on collision was wearing a seat belt and shoulder harness. What would you prefer -- that they not be buckled up? Since all SSRI's are available here only by prescription, I'd rather take my chances with the docs' prescriptions than with the lack of medication, thank you.

John
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:44am PT
Credit: philo
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:01am PT
The whole problem has to do with the decline in psychiatry as the scientific materialist biochemical metaphor takes over the profession. Today, a psychiatrist uses Prozac simply to wall paper over an emotional problem, instead of dealing directly with the underlying causes of depression, anxiety, and internalized rage. Unfortunately, if you use psychotropic drugs to mask depression or anxiety, it'll manifest in some other set of symptoms or, worse, maladaptive behavior problems. It's a lot cheaper and more profitable to prescribe a new drug to eliminate a socially inappropriate or self-destructive state of mind. However, that doesn't mean the underlying emotional problem goes away, instead it shows up eventually in another set of symptoms. This is called "symptom substitution" and is indicative of bad medicine that doesn't really address and cure mental health problems. Very few psychiatrists ask a patient today what's going on in their personal lives. Instead, if you say you're anxious or depressed, they just hand you a script for a new designer drug and send you packing out the door and onto the streets. But treating problems relating to the social environment in families, schools and out on the streets is a very expensive proposition that so far remains largely unsolved.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:09am PT
Bruce M, I think you're simplifying a bit too much. My physician also insisted that I go both to a neurologist (to determine what organically may be wrong) and to a therapist. In my case, the depression was entirely endogenous. It had nothing to do with life, other than chemistry.

Nonetheless, the medical professionals made sure I had a therapist to deal with the life issues that inevitably result from depression, whatever the cause. There was no short cut on that.

I think the danger comes from patients, perhaps influenced by advertising, thinking that all they need to do is pop a pill to make their blues go away. I see this particularly with parents of adolescents having the sorts of problems we all overcome in the process of growing up. They demand that their physician prescribe the miracle drugs they heard will "solve" the problem, rather than trying to understand and act upon the difference between a medical condition and a non-medical behavioral issue.

In my case, I did a great deal of damage to myself, my family and my clients before I finally sought medical help. Once the medical condition was resolved, I still needed to deal with repairing that damage. This required the help of a clinical psychologist, not just medication.

Medication nonetheless remains a key part of the picture. It's just not the only part.

John
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:15am PT
The whole problem has to do with the decline in psychiatry as the scientific materialist biochemical metaphor takes over the profession.

Been to a lot of psychiatrists over the last 40 years, eh?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:21am PT
far from the only gaps in the sandy hook shooting..


We were told AND SHOWN videos of them removing an assualt style weapon from the trunk of the moms car, we were told the shooter was found with handguns - then we were told all shootings were done by a rifle.. This is either THE MOST botched investigation of all time, or there is some CRAPOLA we dont know. 223 wounds and 9mm are two very different wounds. Why was there conflicting news reports and videos that have all since been recanted one way or another. How does one shooter fire every 1.8 seconds in the average figure of 6 minutes? Counting moving , reloading etc that is a generous figure. Whys is there no new interviews or news on the incident?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:40am PT
What about all those Nazis, Jews and ditches? I guess all the Germans were on SSRIs.
Wait, Wounded Knee anyone? The US Cavalry was on SSRIs too?
My Lai?
Oh sorry, I forgot those were all sanctioned sporting events.

Survival, I don't think anyone here claimed psychotropic meds are the root of all the evil men do. To compare people experiencing violent psychotic breaks to Nazis is foolish.

The question is were they part of the cause of the recent mass killings?

The companies themselves have already come out with clear admissions of severe and almost absurdly dangerous side effects.

For about a month after the Newtown killings I saw not ONE head-related pharma advertisement on TV except for boner meds....

If you cannot see that billions of dollars are at stake here, and the complete lack of an organized investigation into the medications, then do a little research yourself.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
If you cannot see that billions of dollars are at stake here, and the complete lack of an organized investigation into the medications, then do a little research yourself.

The FDA has done plenty of investigation, and I'm quite certain investigation continues. The side effects of SSRI's are very well-known, and almost all physicians are careful for that reason. It's a matter of risk management. Yes, there will be some bad side effects. The question is whether the side effects are worse than the effects of not medicating.

John
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
....and almost all physicians are careful for that reason....

I wish that were true John but it's not from what I've experienced or the near parabolic rate of handing these powerful meds out.

It seems like you've got a good support system around you which is great. You're also intelligent and introspective. Most people are not.

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Philo, that is a very interesting point. Must put on the boob thread.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Been to a lot of psychiatrists over the last 40 years, eh?

Not one. But I do work with a lot of psychiatrists, many of whom complain loud and long about the indiscriminate dispensing of psychotropic drugs to patients as if masking an emotional problem with chemicals does anything to cure their underlying mental problems. Every teacher notices that kids with ADD come from conflicted dysfunctional families, but it's a lot cheaper and more convenient to dose pupils with ADD than to address the fundamental social problems behind their symptoms. We're just not prepared as a society to reallocate our resources to really solve the problem at the family and street levels. Would cut into the profit margin for sure.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
in the 60s ADD was indeed cured by a BBITB (big boot in the butt). I had it in elementary school but was cured via a swift paddle to the hiney a few times. CURED i tell ya. Model student afterwards.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
They are very effective for folks with true depression john - you are correct -glad you feel better. I think docs have gotten a lot smarter about prescribing them in the last 10 years. Still a horrible mess though -You obviously had an exceptional Doctor and care.
WE should get Kalen on here and he can tell us what he has witnessed as a drug rep.
It is both much worse than we can imagine and better than we imagine at the same time i think.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
It's cheaper and they make more money to alter your mind then to fix the problem.

When I moved out of my parents' house at 13 because I didn't want to be around alcohol, my grandmother made me go see a few psychologists. The one that I first saw, I didn't want to talk to. All I said was I'm happier now than there, and I didn't need to be around the alcohol. She was angry, and was very rude, kept telling me to stop being a brat and listen to my parents. She was a Kaiser Psychologist. I was insured. She prescribed me after 20 minutes to Prozak.

After a week of taking it I felt horrible. Couldn't think. Felt cloudy. Mood swings. I stopped it.

The second I saw, was a private party. I was a husband and wife, both psychologists, both lived and operated out of the same house. They saw I was normal, and said see ya, good luck, if you need anything just call. $125 hour visits.

Over-prescribing of medications to anyone is an epidemic. Not guns.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
To compare people experiencing violent psychotic breaks to Nazis is foolish.
But not as foolish as Alex Jones claiming on TV that ALL mass shooters were on these drugs. Did you not see my post that listed so many examples of mass shootings that had nothing to do with SSRIs? No, I don't mean the Nazi/Wounded Knee quip.
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Can we hope that 2012 was the end of the gun free zones? There should not be any place where a nutjob can attempt mass murder where he cannot expect someone to pull a concealed carry and send return fire.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
i got"depressed" over,, yeah,, a female back in 96 just after my Dad passed away.. They prescribed me paxil then went to prozac, with NO effects on my mood what so ever. I finally trashed those pills and got me a few doobies and cured my depression the natural way. The less inhibited thoughts allowed me to again see the beauty in a rock or trees or anything really. And perhaps dulled the mental pain of the past. I know those pillz werent doing the trick.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
The side effects of SSRI's are very well-known, and almost all physicians are careful for that reason.

Unfortunately that's not what I have seen. GPs are prescribing them with very little knowledge and providing very little education to their patients. I know two people who were prescribed the wrong SSRIs and it made their problems WAY worse. They later switched to the correct SSRI for their chemistry and they did much better, but they were lucky. It could have been a very bad situation for either of them if they continued on the wrong meds. These meds should only be prescribed by psychiatrists but there aren't enough psychiatrists around unfortuneatly.

If you have someone who is borderline psychotic and they are put on the wrong meds for them I could easily see it leading to a horrific situation.
jghedge

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
"We were told AND SHOWN videos of them removing an assualt style weapon from the trunk of the moms car..."

Nope. You don't know what you're talking about, as usual - just childish blather.

There was a shotgun in the trunk.

This according to the pro-gun RedState:

http://www.redstate.com/2012/12/27/setting-the-record-straight-adam-lanza-did-use-the-bushmaster-ar-15/

Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
That's the point, Ron, the psychotropic drugs don't really work, but they do make it easier for parents, teacher and social workers to "manage" problem children while they're "under the influence". A lot of people are worrying out loud these days about the long-term effects on students who have been regularly dosed on Ritalin for years just to make it easier for "professionals" to control and manage them in the classroom and elsewhere.

And, of course, there's always the example of Winston Churchill whose mother was a professional beauty (i.e. high-class whore with tons of younger BFs) and a dad sick to death in the head with syphilis. Young Winnie was carted off to private schools so he didn't interfere with his mother's trysts while his father slowly went crazy and died. Winston kept writing pathetic letters to his parents crying to see his mom and meet with his dad for approval. No such luck! And Winston grew up to become PM and lead the free-world in a crusade against Hitler and the Nazis. Of course, Winnie was a raging alcoholic who was haunted by depression all his life, something he called his "black beast". Obsessive-compulsive over-achievers often accomplish a lot while they wrestle with depression and alcoholism. That's not to say they have a world of fun!
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?
....
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
gaping hole: our culture has run far amok in many ways. report that
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
side effects of Paxil:



For the Consumer

Applies to paroxetine: oral suspension, oral tablet, oral tablet extended release

Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction while taking paroxetine (the active ingredient contained in Paxil) skin rash or hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat.

Report any new or worsening symptoms to your doctor, such as: mood or behavior changes, anxiety, panic attacks, trouble sleeping, or if you feel impulsive, irritable, agitated, hostile, aggressive, restless, hyperactive (mentally or physically), more depressed, or have thoughts about suicide or hurting yourself.

Call your doctor at once if you have a serious side effect such as:

unusual bone pain or tenderness, swelling or bruising;
easy bruising, unusual bleeding (nose, mouth, vagina, or rectum), coughing up blood;
agitation, hallucinations, fever, fast heart rate, overactive reflexes, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, feeling unsteady, loss of coordination, fainting;
very stiff (rigid) muscles, high fever, sweating, confusion, fast or uneven heartbeats, tremors, overactive reflexes, feeling like you might pass out;
headache, trouble concentrating, memory problems, weakness, confusion, hallucinations, fainting, seizure, shallow breathing or breathing that stops; or
severe skin reaction -- fever, sore throat, swelling in your face or tongue, burning in your eyes, skin pain, followed by a red or purple skin rash that spreads (especially in the face or upper body) and causes blistering and peeling.
Less serious side effects of paroxetine may include:

mild headache, drowsiness, dizziness, sleep problems (insomnia), feeling restless or nervous;
mild nausea, constipation, weight changes;
decreased sex drive, impotence, or difficulty having an orgasm; or
dry mouth, yawning, or ringing in your ears.
This is not a complete list of side effects and others may occur. Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects.
DanaB

climber
CT
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Ron,

Do you know how that information is gathered?

By the way, if you're interested I could send you a copy of a short (approximately 4000 word) monograph I recently wrote about these drugs. There is also a good review article (2012, I believe) on the SSRIs I could direct you to.


Dana
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
If we could, let's leave the firearm discussion out of this thread. There are plenty of other threads to beat that horse to death on.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?

Because they clearly don't cause everyone to kill themselves. Only a certain percentage, and a much higher percentage in certain age groups. If you think of how many lives needed to be destroyed before those black box warnings they currently have were added, it's disturbing.

There are plenty of people born with certain mental maladies that a COMBINATION of long-term counseling and very selective and carefully monitored drug use might help.

The problem began in earnest around the time direct-to-consumer advertising started on TV. Those checks and balances were largely removed and the pill faucet was left on.

Then you have the 7-year run before generics swipe away their profits. So the push is always to have guinea pigs (us) on the latest expensive crap when the older crap might have worked just as well but nobody is getting a bonus to prescribe that.






John M

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
How can an anti-depressant that causes people to kill themselves work?
..

This is difficult to explain but one cause is that it gives people who have suicidal ideation more energy right when the depression hits the strongest.

You have a person with depression and suicidal ideation. One aspect of suicidal ideation is that you feel hopeless about ever feeling good again. Without anti depressants one would mostly likely get to this point, but now be so depressed that they don't even have the energy to plan how to kill themselves. But with anti depressants you often do have more energy. ( please don't think this means that everyone who takes anti depressants has more energy )

So a person is depressed. This leads to feeling hopeless, this can lead to suicidal ideation. Along comes a doctor who offers hope of relief from the depression in the form of a pill. Maybe even for a time the pill works, and then either it starts to quit working or side effects start building up and the decision is made to come off of the medicine. Now the person is feeling that lack of hope again and the suicidal ideation comes into play again, but now the person has more energy due to still having the drug in their system. That energy allows them to plan a method and perhaps carry it out.

There is more to it, but that can be one part..

My credentials..

Lifetime of dealing with depression. I'm 54.
8 years on anti depressants. I have probably taken over 30 different meds for this problem. I have had just about every side effect that you could imagine.

One thing about psychiatrists not doing the counseling has to do with cost. Psychiatrists tend to cost more per hour. Its cheaper to see a psychiatrist for the meds and see a counselor for the therapy. But then you run into insurances that won't cover both. They will pay for one or the other, but not both together. MIne didn't. So my psychiatrist did my therapy even though it cost them and me more. I even wrote them and explained how it would be cheaper, but they still refused.

John M

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
The side effects of SSRI's are very well-known, and almost all physicians are careful for that reason.

Thats not been my experience either. I have had to explain to many physicians the side effects of drugs they were prescribing me. One of the disadvantages of being poor is having to change doctors a lot. At one time I had a steady job and decent insurance. Then the depression made that impossible and I started a series of different doctors. Thankfully now I have a steady doctor. One who seems to know his stuff. Though I have had to explain a bunch of stuff to him too.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
I'd really like to chime in on this thread, but due to certain legal issues regarding someone close to me, am unable to do so.

But...as a chemical/biochemical professional with over 45 years in the field of manufacturing starting materials for the Pharma companies, the FDA doesn't really have any more of a clue than anyone else.

My bottom line statement is: misuse of psychotropic drugs is a major problem, and many patients using them should NOT be running around loose in society. Also, I've heard from other parents that their elementary school counsellors were demanding that their childern be put on Ritalin. They (counsellors) are trying to prescribe the effects wanted, and without an MD being the prescriber!
DanaB

climber
CT
Jan 10, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
My bottom line statement is: misuse of psychotropic drugs is a major problem, and many patients using them should NOT be running around loose in society

Would you provide us with some data?
Would you define misuse?
Seeing as the pyschotropics are so widely used and many (what is many, by the way) patients who take them should not be "running around loose in society," what should be done? Seems like a big problem.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 10, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
psychotropic drugs

Alcohol. Opiates. Cocaine. Methamphetamines, of all kinds. Tobacco and marijuana, a bit.

And that's not even including most prescription drugs.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Good point MH... I should be specifying prescription psychotropic meds...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Also, if your son is receiving major psychiatric treatment, then it might make sense to NOT take him to the gun range for entertainment. And when it then gets down to the point of thinking about having him committed, it might be a good time to get the f*#king guns out of the house.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
As I said earlier, due to legal constraints and the "Hipo laws" I can't give you the most persuasive arguement. But the individual concerned is NOT running around in society.

Added in "Edit." HealyJE. If the individual is ready to be committed, best simply keep the guns in a gun vault--the way I do. Better yet, get the individual committed so they get proper treatment.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
She was having him committed and that's likely what tipped him over the edge, but of course, as a frequent range-goer, she was so infatuated with her involvement in the gun culture she obviously couldn't bring herself to secure the weapons in a time of crisis.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 10, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
We don't know what treatment Adam was receiving. That's been conveniently left to the rumor mill. Relatives say he was being medicated but further investigation simply stops.

Just because she was raising an autistic child does not mean he was a threat from that condition alone. Your falling into the trap the pharma companies love and frankly what makes me a little pissed.

Depressed people are not violent and psychotic. Autistic people are generally not violent nor are they psychotic. There are a thousand very serious mental conditions that do NOT lapse into violent psychosis.

Clearly if you have a violent disturbed child or adult living with you that extra precautions must be taken with not just firearms, but knives, cord, and poison. Even then you're just buying a small amount of extra time if they decide to act. We have no idea what was going on in that house in Newtown.

There are no 'reported' indications Adam was previously violent. There were no indications the Oregon mall shooter had ANY prior incidents... Likewise the Aurora guy had no record and was definitely seeing a psychiatrist for several months. So at least we know for certain he was taking a variety of meds, or perhaps cutoff from them recently, even worse. In some recent story of the Aurora trial a cop said no blood was drawn from Jessie after the shooting since he "didn't seem like he was on anything". That's just great.

These new drugs 'can' cause these things. All I want to see in a serious investigation into it. Billions of dollars say I won't ever see that.

Instead most will just assume crazies are crazies and deal with the aftermath.






Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 10, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
The guidelines used by the FDA in evaluation of INDs (Investigational New Drugs) and progressing through clinical trials seldom involve study of long term possible side effects. It costs roughly $300,000,000 to get a new drug through all the administrative paperwork and the necessary trials now. Some drugs would never make it to market after 6-7 years of trials if these long term studies were mandatory. That's why we seldom hear about the drugs quietly removed from the market after several years of use; long term use reveals problems not discovered in the trials.

I for one, am waiting, forewarned, for that 4+ hour erection from Cialis! ;)
PRRose

climber
Boulder
Jan 10, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
Steve,

WND--the source of your link--is one of the sleaziest, stupidest "news" sites on the web. I wouldn't believe a thing they publish.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
This is difficult to explain but one cause is that it gives people who have suicidal ideation more energy right when the depression hits the strongest.

John M. hits the nail on the head. That's why my (mental) health care professionals monitored me almost daily when I first was diagnosed. When I first went in, I was too depressed to act on any idea, good or bad. Regaining the ability to turn thoughts into action -- something I'd taken for granted for decades -- brings about real dangers that require careful attention.

It sounds like I was very fortunate in a lot of ways from the accounts of other posters on this thread.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
So NOW,, today :





An AR-15, or the so-called "Assault Weapon", was not used in the school shooting. The shooter even tried weeks earlier to buy a rifle but was turned down in the background check. So he had to kill his Mother to steal her rifle. There were initial reports, right after the shooting, that police found the AR-15 in his car, NOT IN THE SCHOOL. The rifle was not used. The shooter went into the school with 4 handguns, NOT an Assault Rifle as the media has charged. I remember in the initial hours of this shooting, the Police said they found the rifle in the car. But the Administration-controlled MSM had a pre-planned attack already waiting, to ban so-called assault weapons and jumped on that line of reporting, knowing it was a lie, which included people like Piers Morgan who said the shooter used an AR-15 that shoots hundreds of rounds per minute, as if it were a machine gun. Could it be that the Democrat Liberals and THEIR MEDIA were pushing for the new law, hoping they could do it, before the Coroner released the info? Absolutely.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
^^gullible and paranoid^^
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Hmmm,, well the Coroner lied thrpough his teeth,, reporters lied through theirs,, and the media the local POPO and the gubbmint went right along with it.. They are lying baztards one and all.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Source?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?401691-Breaking-news-NO-RIFLES-Used-In-Sandy-Hook-Shooting-Only-Handguns


among MANY others..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Weve been DUPED BIG TIME FOLKS! All the outrage at "assualt weapons" when in the very fabric of truth, they just want them away from US --the good citizens of America,, and DO NOT GIVE A SQUAT about what they will LIE about to do just that.

F*CK EVERY one of the baztards involved in this conspiracy and LIE TO AMERICA...
dirtbag

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
"Ron Paul Forums" is your source?

I hope you don't wonder why no one takes you seriously.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
You've been duped, Ron.

BTW, Adam Lanza was not turned down by a background check. He walked away from the gun store because he did not want to wait the 14 days for the background check.

The media made several misreports in the first few hours. Always happens during chaotic events and is fuel for the conspiracy boyz.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
So how do you feel now?? USED?? LIED TO?? F*CKED WITH?? M-A-N-I-P-U-L-A-T-E-D ???




I know i do....



edit : LOOK it up yourselves slackers.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
What was the date of the NBC news report? Ron you've got bigger things to worry about than bolted anchors;)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
F*CK EVERY one of the baztards involved in this conspiracy and LIE TO AMERICA...

Well, that's complete and utter bullsh#t.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:14pm PT

Cut Ron some slack, he's mildly retarted.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 23, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
You mean it WASN'T an *assault rifle* ?

Next thing, you'll expect me to believe the Benghazzi attack wasn't because of that cheesey video.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 24, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Odd that a lady, interviewed on natl news ,,, was at the Boston Bombing,then she was interviewed in the area where "flashbang" aka perp#2 of said bombing was arrested AND she was interviewed in the Sandy Hook neighborhood... REALLY?



Anyone else think that is just a bit past normal odds.?



Theres a thousand Youtubes on this incident now. And if your a septic or buy the news story, there are things here that are quite stunning and at MINIMUM curious...






Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Aug 24, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Mr. Morris;

Winston Churchill referred to his depressive illness as the black dog as opposed to the black beast.

While ADD is associated with dysfunctional families, your statement is incorrect. Many families become dysfunctional because of a child's ADD; but it is not the source of the disorder. ADD is more connected to genetics than anything else.

Your statements about psychotropic drugs and the psychiatrists that prescibe them are also misleading.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Ron, "crisis actor" theories aside, the woman in the Sandy Hook interview has a pretty severe old scar on her right upper lip. The woman from Boston does not.

The criminals in D.C. don't fake tragedy. They own the media outright and can exploit it when things happen. There are plenty of tragedies in a nation this size to use... every day. I have no doubt they have certainly encouraged and perhaps guided such events a bit.

But the notion that "crisis actors" were used and the events never really happened is just plain silly when you look at the scope and complexity of such displays.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 24, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
Ron, did you know about this?

http://doppels.proboards.com/thread/328/keith-richard-replaced-1978-1979
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 24, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
fear, have you seen the vids from the reporting that werent even showing the right school? Or any of the other odd inconsistencies? And to me all three interviews are from the same woman.

I hate to think of things being manipulated, though i know it happens. I saw them personally when working the low levels of fed service.



And Wade, no i have not heard of that.. I always thought they were all zombies!



photo not found
Missing photo ID#315897



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