Thank You Veterans!

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survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
and I do think there were many soldiers who felt morally compelled to join the service in WW2 because of the pearl harbor attack which was likely to be followed by more attacks. That's a far cry from Vietnam. But to consider the morality of different wars is more a matter of commenting on government than of the soldiers, because soldiers only get to follow orders, regardless of the validity of the cause


I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
Thing is Chief, the thread was gone and history without this discussion. I'm happy to let it die again. Does that serve anything

I'm not saying anything negative about soldiers here, only the way they are misused and treated. Maybe Soldiers should get over their conditioned manner of silence over the horror of what they go through and question the government as well, so others don't have to do what they did

It's called cognitive dissonance when what you want to believe turns out to be untrue so you shut up and keep believing what you know deep inside isn't really it. As long as that happens, the status quo goes on and we get more of the same

More of the same is going to kill us all so somebody has to be a squeaky wheel

peace

Karl
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.

Precisely, Thank You and +1.

Thing is Chief, the thread was gone and history without this discussion. I'm happy to let it die again. Does that serve anything

A simple "Thank You" to all the brave souls that served will do.

All the other political and moral stuff can be said in another thread that you can start.. please.

I am so tired of individuals politcizing these few threads that exist out there, regardless of site, who's intent was merely to say "Thank You" for your Service.

Would be nice for a change to leave them alone and let them stand for what they are. A little note of gratitude and respect.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
I like The Chief!
MissJ

Social climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
First, let me reassure you Veterans that to some of us your time served isn't just remembered one day a year. We thank anyone we know who served on a daily basis ( even if they just sat behind a desk because had their number come up they would have had to fight too)

Thank you Coz, Survival, Capt and Chief for trying to save the thread for that which it was intended.

I can see a lot of history here and some thoughts that don't have to be spoken.

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard....Thank you again!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.

If this is true, all the more reason to strenuously question war and the glorification of it. Because if there are people who selflessly sacrifice and believe in the validity of any war the government sponsors, we have to protect them by holding the powers that be's feet to the fire.

Because remember, our soldiers are out there killing other foreign soldiers who are in the same boat, they signed up, or were drafted for their government's war. They are unlikely to be morally any more deficient than our soldiers. We have this myth that only WE are noble

Peace

Karl
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
That's a mighty high horse, Karl.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Because remember, our soldiers are out there killing other foreign soldiers who are in the same boat, they signed up, or were drafted for their government's war

As did the Dalai Lama's Soldiers did when the Chinese invaded their land and attempted to murder him. And they laid down their lives so that he could live and continue the tradition of the people.

Had they not done so, his Holiness would have certainly been killed.

Warriors are a dire need in order to keep the traditions and freedoms of the people alive. Not everyone is meant to be one. But for those of us that decided to join that small Band of Brotherhood, regardless of service, nation or what ever, those that they defended should honor them, always.

Had those few not done so, the freedoms/liberty's of the people would most certainly not be here today.

The irony of all that is that 99.9% of the time, I can tell ya I did what I did not for you all. Rather, for those that were shoulder to shoulder with me doing what we chose to do on a daily basis.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
We have this myth that only WE are noble

Most of us veterans know better than that.

WE (whoever that is) were noble in the revolutionary war, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea (You wouldn't believe how many wreaths I've seen in DC from Korean citizens) and you might also be amazed by how many Vietnamese thank us as well, for our effort. I lived next to a Vietnamese shopping mall where there was a South Vietnamese flag flying 24 hours a day. It never came down.

It's just not as simple as war is bad Karl, sorry.....
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Fact is, if I ever contemplated those folks back home that were whining and bitching about war, the military etc. I most likely would have turned my wep on them for being selfish and totally disrespectful to all the Brothers in Arms I watched first hand give their all and fall for them. All doing so selflessly.

Ponder and chew on that Karl and the rest of you all that have absolutely NO clue to what it's like to fill our boots.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Nov 13, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
Maybe Soldiers should get over their conditioned manner of silence over the horror of what they go through and question the government as well, so others don't have to do what they did

Yes, there IS a culture of keep it to yourself. They're making effort to dispel that but it won't change anytime soon. But I gotta say Karl, this statement is really unenlightened and lacks compassion. Here's why. wait, nevermind, unless you've been through it, you just can't understand. It's people who say "just get over it" that boil my blood. I didn't deploy, I was raped. I was told 2 weeks ago by another Vet that if this had happened to me while I worked at a bank, I wouldn't get any of the VA benefits that I have because I didn't kill anyone or get shot at. I just wanted to do my job.

Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 13, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
This being a thread to thank veterans, how'bout moving it back to that.

I haven't served. My dad did and my son does. Dad joined up in '42 , age 21, because he had friends overseas fighting Hitler or the Japanese and he felt he should put forward his effort towards an Allied victory. He trained in the RCAF in Manitoba on Lancasters as a navigator but the war ended before he went overseas.

My son serves in the RCN and is training in the acoustic dep't. Has volunteered for the silent service. Will letchya know next Remembrance Day how that's going.

Thankyou vets! May wars be few! May Peace prevail!

The Cenotaph at Victory Square in Vancouver reads:
"Their name liveth for evermore"
"Is it nothing to you."
"All ye that pass by."
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 13, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Name: “Hippie” name given to me by my fellow team members

Branch of Service: US Army

Years of Service: 1966-1968 minus three months or short

Where you Basic trained: Ft. Ord, CA and Ft. Benning, Georgia

Where you were stationed: Viet Nam with the 101st Airborne

If in a war where? Viet Nam: Duc Pho, Chu Lai, Ban Loc, Phan Rang, Song Ve, Cambodia, Saigon, Cam Ranh Bay and surrounding areas, Da Nang and surrounding areas, a few other areas, last mission Southeast of Hue in the hills gathering info on route 547: a year prior to the battles for A Shau valley. The first one was a Special Forces camp a few years earlier that was over run and held by the North Vietnamese.

Good thoughts and thinking about what some have said here as well as the Honour during Sandy Storm post. That one went somewhere else as well but things need to be addressed as well on this site which I will address both by this week. Chief you are doing it again you can address your anger on my post by the end of this week, as others on thoughts about war.

As for now: To all that have served that still live no matter what you believe was right or wrong, for my fellow team members;just needed one second; thought I was history but the last few that were left got me home. Thanks.

And an Honour to the men, who I killed, sacrificed and are suffering the same pains like a lot of our own as well in fighting against us for their country for what they believed in. A salute to the veterans and people of Viet Nam.

Some memories are best lost, but then there are those of who you served with which are best saved forever.
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Nov 13, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
82nd Airborne
82nd Airborne
Credit: some leg
US Army
1.5 years
Ft. Lenord Wood, MO- Boot camp
Ft. Bragg, NC- Stationed

I released myself on my own recognicance, I felt the institution no longer had anything to offer me.
Gilroy

Social climber
Boulderado
Nov 13, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
Karl -

I respect many of the things you have posted on ST but this thread is not about which war you approved of. It's about the individuals who served their country and whether you think they were righteous or not, you benefit from their sacrifices and contributions.

Those who failed morally in their actions in uniform are to be held accountable but just as the US military has not always been noble, neither have our opponents. Nothing about war is pretty or neatly controlled by the Geneva Agreements. This should be remembered when those tenets are transgressed by warriors in battle.

There may have been too many wars, in your opinion, which I do not dispute. We could all do with fewer of our brothers in arms, our sons and daughters dieing in uniform. On the other hand, some wars may have been prevented by our military intervention in the face of foreign hegemony. This may be a matter of political conjecture. Nonetheless, what the Generals, Presidents, Premiers and kings decide to do with military might is very different from what this thread is about.

Keith
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 13, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
As for now: To all that have served that still live no matter what you believe was right or wrong, for my fellow team members;just needed one second; thought I was history but the last few that were left got me home. Thanks.

And an Honour to the men, who I killed, sacrificed and are suffering the same pains like a lot of our own as well in fighting against us for their country for what they believed in. A salute to the veterans and people of Viet Nam.

Some memories are best lost, but then there are those of who you served with which are best saved forever.

Great Post
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Nov 13, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Chief you are doing it again you can address your anger on my post by the end of this week, as others on thoughts about war.

No anger.

Just a major difference of opinion as to what I chose as a career (a "Lifer") and what you as did others, had no choice in the matter.

There lies the difference.

Neither good, bad or indifferent and it should remain so.

I respect what you had no say in doing. So I ask that you respect what I in turn chose to do as a profession.


Also, if you in fact were USA SpecOps Operator "in country", you most assuredly worked shoulder to shoulder with many of my first Chiefs, Senior Chiefs, Master Chiefs a Warrant or two and some LT's and LCDR's.

What LRRP Det/s were you with?
nmba1gi

Trad climber
North Bay
Nov 13, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
On another level I believe the military service question haunts every man of my generation (I'm 64): Specifically what were you supposed to do regarding Vietnam? No one was immune and we all live with our choice today and use time and circumstance to rationalize our decision.

Opposed to the war and killing - so do everything you can think of to get out of the draft (Canada, be a fairy at the induction physical, claim religious objection even if you were an atheist, march organize, tell your draft board to go to hell and take you licks in state prison.

For the war: Sign on, boy!

But in one sense it boils down (in retrospect) to defining yourself as a man. Our fathers all responded w/o hesitation to WWII. We pampered baby boomers weren't ready to don the olive drab and take a bullet for uncle. In the popular sense, however, there was no other measurement of manhood. I think that quandary was the silent partner to all our maneuvers during the time of Vietnam.

April 1967 I marched against the war in San Francisco.
July-sep 67 boot camp San Diego
sep 67-dec 67 comm school Norfolk
Jan 68-July 69 Navy Comm Sta Guam
Aug 69-Aug 70 navy support base cam ranh bay

My time in Vietnam, altho at times (infrequently) scary was nothing like what some of the posters went through.

The ambiguity of the whole thing, from moral decisions to manhood to an experience I'll never forget, stays with me

For me, at least, the real heroes of Vietnam were the people who said fu*k you to the whole thing and took the consequences and the people who slogged thru the jungle with three months boot camp and a little AIT.

The most contemptible are today's right wing power brokers and pundits who squirmed their way out.
dogtown

Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:00am PT
I am always amazed when this day comes once a year and everyone knows some one that is a Vet and in fact shows their appreciation for them.

The rest of the year, just like Christmas etc, all is forgotten.

Me, it was my chosen profession that I enjoyed thoroughly for 24 years, 3 months a 9 days which I gave my heart and soul to daily.

For those very few out there including here on ST that do think & show their respect and appreciation about us Vets on a regular basis, thank you.

(The Chief)

You hit the nail on the head Chief! I also thank all of you! You just don’t know how much it means to us to feel that love. I to was a chosen professional and would change only one thing. To win, winning is important. To crush them. Or don’t do it at all. War is not something you do half ass, it’s a pity we are doing it again leaving before we win. To waste American life to an ungrateful people again is more than one can bear.

Thank you, God blesses you all.

DT.
Gilroy

Social climber
Boulderado
Nov 14, 2012 - 01:00am PT
I am not necessarily in the Chief's boat (sic) on this subject, but more identify with the ambiguity nmba1gi addresses.

//But in one sense it boils down (in retrospect) to defining yourself as a man. Our fathers all responded w/o hesitation to WWII. We pampered baby boomers weren't ready to don the olive drab and take a bullet for uncle. In the popular sense, however, there was no other measurement of manhood. I think that quandary was the silent partner to all our maneuvers during the time of Vietnam.//

I was compelled by all the social forces of the times and in my young mind to oppose the war in Viet Nam. And I have opposed most of the conflicts we have engaged in since then, yet I could not leave the USA nor my family when I became eligible for the draft. Absolutely could not.

My father was 4-F deferred during WW II and regretted the classification strongly, to say the least. He expressed himself in absolute terms when I raised the subject of avoiding the draft and threatened to ostracize me from our family if I went to Canada. Ultimately, I enlisted with my draft notice in my back pocket.

As luck would have it, I did not have to go to war as noted in my first post upthread but I did experience what it was like to serve my country and it was a great opening of my understanding of service and patriotic duty.

Just living the life of a decent person in a spot on the map of a country is not near enough to repay the debt the opportunities given you deserve. My time in the military imbued me with a better understanding of citizenship beyond voting. I am still not a flag-waving republican sort but have seen the price paid by combat veterans and civilians alike who risked their wellbeing in service of others. We all owe this to each other and national service whether in the military or otherwise should be required IMHO.

To me, it was not a requirement for manhood but a sense of responsibility to our nation, my community, others who had served honorably and, ultimately, to my family that compelled me to enlist despite my ambiguity about the military at the time. This understanding became more clear to me over time. I just wish there was a non-military option for citizens to consider.

Keith
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