survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Karl, while I agree with you about needlessly wasting our men, women and treasure, but don't be a fool and think that these powers are not necessary to the way you have been born, raised, educated and so on.
I too want us to move beyond these things. But until that happens, you want the most badass mutherfukkers possible on your team.
You have that, be grateful.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
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"Greater love no man has than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
edit: when it got right down to it, it was "your brothers in arms" that you were fighting for. My brother-in-law was willing to do just that. His platoon (actually company/several platoons) were surrounded and nearly out of amo with no outside contact (lost contact with their fire base/or whatever its called). He was the Sargent of his platoon. Evidently, several others had volunteered to try and break through, but they were not successful (died). he volunteered (didn't have to, but someone did or they all would have died). He made it. Ran 18 mi through the jungle to get help. It just about killed him (earned him his 3rd purple heart). He was awarded a Silver Star for it. imo, THAT is a f*#kin' HERO!
Randy Eads didn't have to crawl down into those damn holes! But, the VC were popping up and shooting the sh#t out of all his buddies, then dissipearing into them holes unscathed. He did his damnedest to find out where those holes were going, where they were going to pop up next. Plus, they were filled with amo & weapons, etc, that were being used to kill his "brothers". First and foremost, he did it for them!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Naw Dingus
I don't mind stirring up a hornets nest, but would much rather have posted to a thread about the military in general and not one that focused on individuals. I apologize if individual feelings were hurt as a result.
and I do think there were many soldiers who felt morally compelled to join the service in WW2 because of the pearl harbor attack which was likely to be followed by more attacks. That's a far cry from Vietnam. But to consider the morality of different wars is more a matter of commenting on government than of the soldiers, because soldiers only get to follow orders, regardless of the validity of the cause
Peace
karl
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The Chief
climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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Karl,
Please give it a break.
Some of us do have fallen comrades that we honor daily for what they gave. Some of us also pay the heavy price for that deed falling on them and not on us.
All of it not for you or me.
But for all of US! Regardless of time or place or political affiliation.
Please do respect that.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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Karl, while I agree with you about needlessly wasting our men, women and treasure, but don't be a fool and think that these powers are not necessary to the way you have been born, raised, educated and so on.
I too want us to move beyond these things. But until that happens, you want the most badass mutherfukkers possible on your team.
You have that, be grateful.
Since I was born, I don't see that as being true. We could have got by better with fewer wars, and a smaller military. As it is now, we can obliterate any country in the world in seconds, and precision kill any little building with it's inhabitants without putting any badasses in danger. So why are we going into huge debt screwing around in so many places on the planet? To enforce our economic hegemony, not protect freedom.
You can be plenty badass and you'll never beat guys who are fighting for "HOME" We had every advantage in Vietnam and Afghanistan but people fighting for their homes never give up, and if they do, they just rise again when you leave.
Peace
karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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and I do think there were many soldiers who felt morally compelled to join the service in WW2 because of the pearl harbor attack which was likely to be followed by more attacks. That's a far cry from Vietnam. But to consider the morality of different wars is more a matter of commenting on government than of the soldiers, because soldiers only get to follow orders, regardless of the validity of the cause
I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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Thing is Chief, the thread was gone and history without this discussion. I'm happy to let it die again. Does that serve anything
I'm not saying anything negative about soldiers here, only the way they are misused and treated. Maybe Soldiers should get over their conditioned manner of silence over the horror of what they go through and question the government as well, so others don't have to do what they did
It's called cognitive dissonance when what you want to believe turns out to be untrue so you shut up and keep believing what you know deep inside isn't really it. As long as that happens, the status quo goes on and we get more of the same
More of the same is going to kill us all so somebody has to be a squeaky wheel
peace
Karl
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The Chief
climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.
Precisely, Thank You and +1.
Thing is Chief, the thread was gone and history without this discussion. I'm happy to let it die again. Does that serve anything
A simple "Thank You" to all the brave souls that served will do.
All the other political and moral stuff can be said in another thread that you can start.. please.
I am so tired of individuals politcizing these few threads that exist out there, regardless of site, who's intent was merely to say "Thank You" for your Service.
Would be nice for a change to leave them alone and let them stand for what they are. A little note of gratitude and respect.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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I like The Chief!
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MissJ
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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First, let me reassure you Veterans that to some of us your time served isn't just remembered one day a year. We thank anyone we know who served on a daily basis ( even if they just sat behind a desk because had their number come up they would have had to fight too)
Thank you Coz, Survival, Capt and Chief for trying to save the thread for that which it was intended.
I can see a lot of history here and some thoughts that don't have to be spoken.
Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard....Thank you again!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.
If this is true, all the more reason to strenuously question war and the glorification of it. Because if there are people who selflessly sacrifice and believe in the validity of any war the government sponsors, we have to protect them by holding the powers that be's feet to the fire.
Because remember, our soldiers are out there killing other foreign soldiers who are in the same boat, they signed up, or were drafted for their government's war. They are unlikely to be morally any more deficient than our soldiers. We have this myth that only WE are noble
Peace
Karl
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The Chief
climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Because remember, our soldiers are out there killing other foreign soldiers who are in the same boat, they signed up, or were drafted for their government's war
As did the Dalai Lama's Soldiers did when the Chinese invaded their land and attempted to murder him. And they laid down their lives so that he could live and continue the tradition of the people.
Had they not done so, his Holiness would have certainly been killed.
Warriors are a dire need in order to keep the traditions and freedoms of the people alive. Not everyone is meant to be one. But for those of us that decided to join that small Band of Brotherhood, regardless of service, nation or what ever, those that they defended should honor them, always.
Had those few not done so, the freedoms/liberty's of the people would most certainly not be here today.
The irony of all that is that 99.9% of the time, I can tell ya I did what I did not for you all. Rather, for those that were shoulder to shoulder with me doing what we chose to do on a daily basis.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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We have this myth that only WE are noble
Most of us veterans know better than that.
WE (whoever that is) were noble in the revolutionary war, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea (You wouldn't believe how many wreaths I've seen in DC from Korean citizens) and you might also be amazed by how many Vietnamese thank us as well, for our effort. I lived next to a Vietnamese shopping mall where there was a South Vietnamese flag flying 24 hours a day. It never came down.
It's just not as simple as war is bad Karl, sorry.....
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The Chief
climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Fact is, if I ever contemplated those folks back home that were whining and bitching about war, the military etc. I most likely would have turned my wep on them for being selfish and totally disrespectful to all the Brothers in Arms I watched first hand give their all and fall for them. All doing so selflessly.
Ponder and chew on that Karl and the rest of you all that have absolutely NO clue to what it's like to fill our boots.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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Maybe Soldiers should get over their conditioned manner of silence over the horror of what they go through and question the government as well, so others don't have to do what they did
Yes, there IS a culture of keep it to yourself. They're making effort to dispel that but it won't change anytime soon. But I gotta say Karl, this statement is really unenlightened and lacks compassion. Here's why. wait, nevermind, unless you've been through it, you just can't understand. It's people who say "just get over it" that boil my blood. I didn't deploy, I was raped. I was told 2 weeks ago by another Vet that if this had happened to me while I worked at a bank, I wouldn't get any of the VA benefits that I have because I didn't kill anyone or get shot at. I just wanted to do my job.
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Tami
Social climber
Canada
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Nov 13, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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This being a thread to thank veterans, how'bout moving it back to that.
I haven't served. My dad did and my son does. Dad joined up in '42 , age 21, because he had friends overseas fighting Hitler or the Japanese and he felt he should put forward his effort towards an Allied victory. He trained in the RCAF in Manitoba on Lancasters as a navigator but the war ended before he went overseas.
My son serves in the RCN and is training in the acoustic dep't. Has volunteered for the silent service. Will letchya know next Remembrance Day how that's going.
Thankyou vets! May wars be few! May Peace prevail!
The Cenotaph at Victory Square in Vancouver reads:
"Their name liveth for evermore"
"Is it nothing to you."
"All ye that pass by."
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 13, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
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Name: “Hippie” name given to me by my fellow team members
Branch of Service: US Army
Years of Service: 1966-1968 minus three months or short
Where you Basic trained: Ft. Ord, CA and Ft. Benning, Georgia
Where you were stationed: Viet Nam with the 101st Airborne
If in a war where? Viet Nam: Duc Pho, Chu Lai, Ban Loc, Phan Rang, Song Ve, Cambodia, Saigon, Cam Ranh Bay and surrounding areas, Da Nang and surrounding areas, a few other areas, last mission Southeast of Hue in the hills gathering info on route 547: a year prior to the battles for A Shau valley. The first one was a Special Forces camp a few years earlier that was over run and held by the North Vietnamese.
Good thoughts and thinking about what some have said here as well as the Honour during Sandy Storm post. That one went somewhere else as well but things need to be addressed as well on this site which I will address both by this week. Chief you are doing it again you can address your anger on my post by the end of this week, as others on thoughts about war.
As for now: To all that have served that still live no matter what you believe was right or wrong, for my fellow team members;just needed one second; thought I was history but the last few that were left got me home. Thanks.
And an Honour to the men, who I killed, sacrificed and are suffering the same pains like a lot of our own as well in fighting against us for their country for what they believed in. A salute to the veterans and people of Viet Nam.
Some memories are best lost, but then there are those of who you served with which are best saved forever.
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toadgas
Trad climber
los angeles
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Nov 13, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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As for now: To all that have served that still live no matter what you believe was right or wrong, for my fellow team members;just needed one second; thought I was history but the last few that were left got me home. Thanks.
gudamn....lostinshanghai gets Post of the year award...
man, this war stuff makes rock climbing look like total bullshitt
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Hankster
Social climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 13, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
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US Army
1.5 years
Ft. Lenord Wood, MO- Boot camp
Ft. Bragg, NC- Stationed
I released myself on my own recognicance, I felt the institution no longer had anything to offer me.
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