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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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A couple days late, but, I just wanted to post this in memory of my brother in law, who lived hard and died young at 29. He earned a silver star and bronze star and three purple hearts while serving two tours of duty in the USMC in Viet Nam, Sgt. Ronnie Grindle, RIP!
edit: btw, Ronnie (like i shared elsewhere) just before his 17th birthday, tagged along with his older brother and his friends on a joyride and him being in the backseat got nabbed when they got pulled over. The judge gave him a choice of prison or Nam, so he took the latter. Things were definitely very different in the 60's! What a piece of sh#t that judge was, imo! I'm sure he gave many other young men (kids really) the very same choice, fully knowing that a percentage of them would return in a box.
fwiw, i came very close to being drafted and sent to Nam, was ready to go (wouldn't have had a choice) but was fortunate enough to draw a high lottery # 308! I had several good friends that i new since elementary school, were on my little league team, that were not so fortunate, they came back in a coffin. Ronald Dilday, RIP & Randy Eads, RIP!
i just wanted to add that Randy Eads was a "tunnel rat', that is how he died (went into a tunnel and never came out)! I will never forget the night that i heard that news. i was shaping surfboards in a friends garage, and this guy came by and told us that his mother had just got the devastating news that very day...so sad!
IMO, Ronnie, Ronald & Randy were #1 BadAzz's of the world...the epitomy of the word, the REAL deal! Heroes!! Why? Because, when it got right down to it, they were willing to put it all on the line, and die for their brothers!!
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John M
climber
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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I don't see anyone here hating on Veterans. Just on how they have been misused, and how corrupt and evil wars have been glorified.
Don't hate the Veteran
Hate the lies and waste brought on by the corrupt.
Maybe Karl's post was misplaced, but I appreciate what he said.
You can protect our servicemen by giving them the best equipment possible.
You can also protect and honor them by making certain their service isn't for corrupt and evil purposes.
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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There is definitely the "brothers in arms" that only some understand.It cannot be explained,only felt.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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Name:Erik O.
Branch of Service: USMC
Years of Service: 4 years in reserve that started during the first Iraq war
Where you Basic trained: San Diego
Where you were stationed: 4th MTM Co., Sacramento, CA
If in a war where? No, thankfully.......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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Democracy cannot survive a professional army, never has, never will. DMT, not sure what you meant here? As opposed to what, an unprofessional army?
Democracy just doesn't have that much experience with armies period, professional or otherwise......
Coz, blind observance of anything is worthless. Yes, you've worked with military folk, but there are plenty of vets on this site that understand what Karl is saying, so stand down brother.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Karl,
I agree with most of what you said. In my opinion WW2 was pretty much the last "honorable" war we fought in.
Having a few purple hearts, and hopefully more wisdom with age, I think my perspective has sharpened.
I was going to be drafted or escape to Canada. At that time, I thought it might be some sort of "grand adventure", and didn't even think of the alternative.
It was a learning experience.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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LIke all off-topic threads, they only survive with a little controversy. I admit that I really didn't want to post my message on this thread, but I'm also sensitive about creating multiple off-topic but similar threads on Supertopo, so maybe I made the wrong call. Sorry if that's the case. But if I did create a new one, this one was already long gone, so at least now we have a discussion.
I am actually a lot more FOR the welfare of the soldiers than many who pay them lip service. If you get sent to a bunk useless war like Iraq, and exposed to depleted uranium and perhaps having some parts blown off, how much support are you really getting from folks who say "It's unpatriotic to question the war, support our troops!"
If that was the way we all acted, the troops would still be there suffering for nothing. A patriot who supports the troops will yell "It's a phony illegal war and nobody should have be the last man to die for a mistake."
If we had a thread to thank the Free-soloists for risking their life for the advancement of our sport, you can bet people would chime in and say "Wait a minute. Isn't glorifying them putting others at risk when there's another side to the story"
If there are some veterans out there who joined for purely altruistic reasons of service, post up and I thank you in advance. For others who bought into the program and found it wasn't what they signed up for, I stand with you and don't blame you. I'm just putting the brakes on the blind hero worship that winds up being counter-productive the minute we're fighting a new senseless war
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Regarding the issue of a professional army. It may be a inescapable reality now, but the consequences of this have been best outlined by a high level pinko leftie
The Republican Top General and former president, Dwight D Eisenhower
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
He called it and that's why Romney wanted to increase military spending by 2 trillion even though it doubled since 2001. Not for treating the soldiers better, but just supporting the whole industry of defense.
It's a short clip. Listen and consider
Peace
karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Karl, while I agree with you about needlessly wasting our men, women and treasure, but don't be a fool and think that these powers are not necessary to the way you have been born, raised, educated and so on.
I too want us to move beyond these things. But until that happens, you want the most badass mutherf*#ks possible on your team.
You have that, be grateful.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
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"Greater love no man has than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
edit: when it got right down to it, it was "your brothers in arms" that you were fighting for. My brother-in-law was willing to do just that. His platoon (actually company/several platoons) were surrounded and nearly out of amo with no outside contact (lost contact with their fire base/or whatever its called). He was the Sargent of his platoon. Evidently, several others had volunteered to try and break through, but they were not successful (died). he volunteered (didn't have to, but someone did or they all would have died). He made it. Ran 18 mi through the jungle to get help. It just about killed him (earned him his 3rd purple heart). He was awarded a Silver Star for it. imo, THAT is a f*#kin' HERO!
Randy Eads didn't have to crawl down into those damn holes! But, the VC were popping up and shooting the sh#t out of all his buddies, then dissipearing into them holes unscathed. He did his damnedest to find out where those holes were going, where they were going to pop up next. Plus, they were filled with amo & weapons, etc, that were being used to kill his "brothers". First and foremost, he did it for them!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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Naw Dingus
I don't mind stirring up a hornets nest, but would much rather have posted to a thread about the military in general and not one that focused on individuals. I apologize if individual feelings were hurt as a result.
and I do think there were many soldiers who felt morally compelled to join the service in WW2 because of the pearl harbor attack which was likely to be followed by more attacks. That's a far cry from Vietnam. But to consider the morality of different wars is more a matter of commenting on government than of the soldiers, because soldiers only get to follow orders, regardless of the validity of the cause
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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Karl, while I agree with you about needlessly wasting our men, women and treasure, but don't be a fool and think that these powers are not necessary to the way you have been born, raised, educated and so on.
I too want us to move beyond these things. But until that happens, you want the most badass mutherf*#ks possible on your team.
You have that, be grateful.
Since I was born, I don't see that as being true. We could have got by better with fewer wars, and a smaller military. As it is now, we can obliterate any country in the world in seconds, and precision kill any little building with it's inhabitants without putting any badasses in danger. So why are we going into huge debt screwing around in so many places on the planet? To enforce our economic hegemony, not protect freedom.
You can be plenty badass and you'll never beat guys who are fighting for "HOME" We had every advantage in Vietnam and Afghanistan but people fighting for their homes never give up, and if they do, they just rise again when you leave.
Peace
karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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and I do think there were many soldiers who felt morally compelled to join the service in WW2 because of the pearl harbor attack which was likely to be followed by more attacks. That's a far cry from Vietnam. But to consider the morality of different wars is more a matter of commenting on government than of the soldiers, because soldiers only get to follow orders, regardless of the validity of the cause
I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Thing is Chief, the thread was gone and history without this discussion. I'm happy to let it die again. Does that serve anything
I'm not saying anything negative about soldiers here, only the way they are misused and treated. Maybe Soldiers should get over their conditioned manner of silence over the horror of what they go through and question the government as well, so others don't have to do what they did
It's called cognitive dissonance when what you want to believe turns out to be untrue so you shut up and keep believing what you know deep inside isn't really it. As long as that happens, the status quo goes on and we get more of the same
More of the same is going to kill us all so somebody has to be a squeaky wheel
peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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I like The Chief!
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MissJ
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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First, let me reassure you Veterans that to some of us your time served isn't just remembered one day a year. We thank anyone we know who served on a daily basis ( even if they just sat behind a desk because had their number come up they would have had to fight too)
Thank you Coz, Survival, Capt and Chief for trying to save the thread for that which it was intended.
I can see a lot of history here and some thoughts that don't have to be spoken.
Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard....Thank you again!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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I know this might be hard for you Karl, but there are those that feel the same call regardless of the conflict, and regardless what your history book and what your personal ethic says.
If this is true, all the more reason to strenuously question war and the glorification of it. Because if there are people who selflessly sacrifice and believe in the validity of any war the government sponsors, we have to protect them by holding the powers that be's feet to the fire.
Because remember, our soldiers are out there killing other foreign soldiers who are in the same boat, they signed up, or were drafted for their government's war. They are unlikely to be morally any more deficient than our soldiers. We have this myth that only WE are noble
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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We have this myth that only WE are noble
Most of us veterans know better than that.
WE (whoever that is) were noble in the revolutionary war, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea (You wouldn't believe how many wreaths I've seen in DC from Korean citizens) and you might also be amazed by how many Vietnamese thank us as well, for our effort. I lived next to a Vietnamese shopping mall where there was a South Vietnamese flag flying 24 hours a day. It never came down.
It's just not as simple as war is bad Karl, sorry.....
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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Maybe Soldiers should get over their conditioned manner of silence over the horror of what they go through and question the government as well, so others don't have to do what they did
Yes, there IS a culture of keep it to yourself. They're making effort to dispel that but it won't change anytime soon. But I gotta say Karl, this statement is really unenlightened and lacks compassion. Here's why. wait, nevermind, unless you've been through it, you just can't understand. It's people who say "just get over it" that boil my blood. I didn't deploy, I was raped. I was told 2 weeks ago by another Vet that if this had happened to me while I worked at a bank, I wouldn't get any of the VA benefits that I have because I didn't kill anyone or get shot at. I just wanted to do my job.
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