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murf02
climber
NYC
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May 16, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Or just hike it (and clean up after yourself).
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tom Carter
Social climber
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May 16, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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Does this immorality trickle down? Say from the Big E to Rainier, to El Cap, the Grand and After Six?
It is easy to forget (and it may not change a thing) that for many of those "clients" (on ascenders or not), that single effort was really digging deep - they put out physically, mentally and financially. so that conversation at the cooler is expected....
Like my friend CC once told me about ski guiding, "Carter, you are just a glorified ski caddy".
Are caddys pimps too???
Parking attendent?
Good discussion
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 16, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
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of the various immoral things in the world, this is not in the top one percent of the ones that bother me.
each minute those one per centers spend on everest is a minute they're not evicting someone or finding some way to screw me out of more banking fees. plus, some of them die up there.
and it may distort the local economy in weird ways, but it's not like there appears to be a good viable alternative at the moment.
so pump it up
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 16, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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"Rationalize and romanticize it all you want, but the impact to the environment outweighs any financial benefit to the guide."
Sounds like your primary definition of morality is related to environmental impact. OK...I get that...but if that's your sole consideration, you need to stay out of the mountains.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 16, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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I'm guessing getting to the top of Everest his harder than people think. I climbed with a guy who was a strong multi-discipline climber who summited (without a guide) and he said it was super burly.
Anyway, I say so long as the client is informed of the narrow margins then no moral problems.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Probably did summit.
I thought the appropriate question is Did he swap leads?
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 16, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
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It isnt the point of guiding, its HOW the guiding is being done no? Is Deanli being trashed like Everest??
The popularity on many peaks has turned them into a little bit of a sht show. The west buttress on Denali does show impacts popularity (guides and clients are only part of the impact) including human waste issues and a season fixed rope that is put in. Rainer is another example.
Guiding these peaks is so lucrative that guide services have to have a concession and poacher guides will take clients up these peaks also.
Good thing there are other peaks where you won’t see another sole, although less people are impressed when you spray about climbing them around the water cooler.
I had the pleasure of seeing a slide show on an early attempt on Annapura, at the time you had to take a train from India to Nepal just to start the trek. They failed but had a grand adventure, things change and those types of adventures are harder to come by. I don’t think morality is part of the equation but somewhere along the line guiding these peaks has decreased some of the experience.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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This is a very simple practical problem. Why are we invoking morality? I can't think of even one moral issue that has actually ever been resolved.
Hard to understand.......
Maybe if our brains had become enlarged before, not after, we started walking on two legs
things would have been different.
What we have here is a purely amygdalaic response.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Although test pilots at Edwards mock the Mercury program for sending "spam in a can" into space, they recognize that they are no longer the fastest men on Earth, and Yeager states that "it takes a special kind of man to volunteer for a suicide mission, especially when it's on national TV." While testing the new Lockheed NF-104A, Yeager attempts to set a new altitude record at the edge of space but is nearly killed in a high-speed ejection when his engines fail. Though badly burned, after reaching the ground Yeager gathers up his parachute and walks to the ambulance, proving that he still has the Right Stuff
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 16, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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neverest buttress, kangshung face,a new route by four people in 1988.
one person summited
barneys tried to guide some vaseline lady up
this route in the 1994?
i agree with jim.
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steve shea
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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Stewart, nice photo you can see where Boardman and Tasker are sitting. I agree with jstan; nothing has really been debated or resolved. Forget Everest. There are thousands of high angle, quality alpine routes to be done on 6K and 7Km peaks. You can still hire sherpa kitchen and base camp cooks, you can still hire yak herders, you must have an LO. You get to have all the culture and accoutrement of an 8Km peak for a mere pittance without the crap and stigma of having climbed the world's highest rubble heap by the South Col Highway. The Kangshung, that is where Ed Webster lost his digits.
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Jeff Rhoads
climber
UT
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May 16, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Please people and climbers. quit bitching about people that want to experience any mountain, Everest, Mtn. Hood as a client. Don't they have the right of that experience? Just because they don't have the years of experience and climbing that you do and they don't live the life you do, Give them a break.
It is SO easy to bash people that want to try what you are so good at. You may not agree with there choose of climb or way it is done. Why are you so concerned?
Everest will always be guided from now on. Don't go if you think it is not worth it. But support people that want to feel what we do and experience the joy of maybe not the summit but of the mountains. The guides are there because THEY believe the the clients. And it is a way for them to make a living doing what they say they enjoy, to a point.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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Weld-it:
Let's say I am dying of anthrax. Am I being inconsiderate if I do the suicide bomb thing on Fifth Avenue during rush hour?
Just askin.
Cough cough.
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steve shea
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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Tami is right! Somehow we climbers must devalue a climb of Everest. That will solve it. No one will want to climb it if it is considered to be just another bump on the landscape even if it is as high as sh#t can be stacked. Or it could be that an alpine style ascent of say, Kanchenjunga or Gyachungkang should be a prequisite for Everest. That would do it. I'm tellin' ya, 7Km peaks is where it is happening. No guides no clients just you and the mountain.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 16, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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Vitaliy you need to read my book "Everest The Ultimate Hump".
I'd read it, if I had time to read! I been trying to climb every day that I don't work (sitting here, on the days that I do work). Word is I am getting more hours cut so may spent less time here : )
You won't change that as long as weenies are impressed by the tick mark on the bucket list. WHich sucks but there it is.
I think a lot of people there do it because they think it will be a huge personal challenge not particularly to impress others. For majority, the drive is not any worse than the drive to climb 5.XX. Us humans want others to respect our accomplishments, no matter what bug we get sick with (general mountaineering, climbing, modeling, table tennis, whatever we do, we want to be better than average). To be honest before I started climbing I did watch Everest Beyond the Limit and thought it would be a huge personal challenge to do 7 summits. Going to the mountains often got me out of that bug, and got me addicted to climbing (first scrambling around Sierra, rock climbing next, and now ice as well. My favorite climbing is climbing technical rock/ice routes on actual peaks away from crowds). Regular family folks who can afford to do one big trip a year (Whitney> Shasta> Rainier> Kilimanjaro> Aconcagua> Denali> Everest> Retire) can't spent so much time in the regular mountains, and fall in love with own "little" ranges. So I can't blame them. It is still a big personal accomplishment for them, even if it's 'just a slog up a dog route.' I know people who climbed 8000M peaks but it doesn't seem like 'the public' really gives a sh#t. It is something they may mention at a party and will raise their 'social value,' but no one really does give a fk. Especially in climbing circles outside 'the gym' scene.
As I said, I just have a problem with all these ridiculous claims to be the first XXXXXX to summit Everest. Although maybe some poor people do it to get sponsors since prices to go there are ridiculous, especially if you want a guide.
Stewart Johnson, your accomplishment with the route on Everest is amazing. Do you have any other climbs planned away from Sierra?
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DanaB
climber
CT
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May 16, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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Too many people fail to understand the difference between legal and moral.
Yes, indeed.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 16, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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I wonder how much C4 it would take to lower Everest's summit so that K2 is the highest.
The nepalese could build a pressurized hotel on the mesa, and the new highest mountain in the world would only be reached by REAL climbers.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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What about sherpas? Those greedy f*#kers are profiting off the trashing of the mountains.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 16, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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This thread is full of envy.
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Wormly81
Trad climber
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May 16, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
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After having read the first page, its obvious to me that this thread smacks of egotistical ugliness. Not much different than the egotistical behavior of someone who wants to climb a big mountain to feel special. Pot, meet kettle.
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