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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
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Hey, worm, we're talkin' about legalizing prostitution, not Sigmund Freud.
Oh, and there's more than a few here who have been 'high'.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 16, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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Back on topic, sort of.
There are several issues floating around here.
Why just Everest?
Why not similar less-technical (easy for me to say, I haven't been up there) peaks such as Kanchenjunga?
Why not the "trade routes" on Denali? Guided clients have died on Rainier, Shasta.
There seems to be a moral question about assumption of risk. When one pays big $ to be guided up a peak who's fault is it when the climb goes Tetons-up? Is the guide ever at fault?
Should a guide ever accept the responsibility for taking clients up mountains with such great objective risk?
Is he/she at fault when the clients are demonstrably at risk due to their own ineptitude/lack of skill or conditioning? What about the risk one client can cause the team by a screwup?
What about the risk one party causes another party when the crap hits the fan? When should the guide turn the whole party around?
Consider that a great deal of the risk involves lack of experience and judgement when things get desperate regardless of physical conditioning.
What about the environmental impact? You guide people who are not top level in conditioning, experience and skill to the Summit, or not to the Summit. Who's responsible for putting out the extra effort to get the empty O2 bottles or shredded tents off the mtn?
These issues arise nearly as often on Denali as Everest.
In my very limited experience, I've seen Tetons guides turn individual clients around at Lower Saddle when they could see the client was not likely to make it. Why doesn't this apply to Everest/Denali? Of course the $$ at risk is about 300X. A powerful financial incentive for both guide and client.
I've specifically called it a moral rather than a legal question.
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aguacaliente
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
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There's a difference between immoral and unethical. (As I see it) morality is about basic shared human values (thou shalt not kill, or poop upstream from a village's water supply, etc). While ethics is more related to agreed upon standards of behavior within a group (thou shalt not drive a piton or a bolt if a chock will do, or pass on a climb without asking).
I'm not sure if Donini meant that guiding Everest was immoral or unethical, or both. Some things, like refusing to take part in a rescue or walking past a person in need of assistance because it would jeopardize your summit bid, are clearly immoral to me, but are they unethical? I don't have much clue what the ethical standards are above 8000 meters. We are talking about a hobby that was started by enthusiastic amateurs whose interests happened to conveniently overlap the interests of national pride and empire.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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May 16, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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DUCK THE SHIAT IS A FLYING
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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I agree with everything Donidni has said.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 16, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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I don't have much clue what the ethical standards are above 8000 meters.
+1
It is easy to judge actions of others while you have not 'lived the moment.'
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 16, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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my point is: dont bag on everest its a mountain. lots of other routes
besides the two milky routes with the remnants of eighty years which most people think is the only way up.
you wont see too many teams off of these routes.
even new routes could be opened ,if youve got a screw loose and get lucky.
sh#t, we didnt see anyone all season at our bc on the main rongbuk! of course that was the nineties baby!
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Southwest for the winter
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May 16, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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Did all of the people whose expeditions pulled out at least enjoy the time there at basecamp and maybe tag some of the adjacent, perhaps more reasonable peaks? Regardless how much money I had thrown down for Everest, I would want to spend some time living in the mountains to get my moneys worth and make the most of my time.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 17, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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maybe tag some of the adjacent, perhaps more reasonable peaks?
LOL
There is only one mountain in the world. You either summit it, or you don't. Everything else doesn't matter.
Stewart Johnson, would be awesome if you posted more pics from there, K2, or anywhere else worthy..or posted any possible faces with not too many routes plastered
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 17, 2012 - 12:39am PT
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What's the pay for Sherpas compared to the Western guides on these gigs?
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 17, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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file under Stupid Sh#t White People Argue About
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 17, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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The smart Sherpas are setting up their own guide services so
they can employ their relatives and reap all the rewards.
Someday soon, western dirtbags will be working for
Sherpa bosses and sometime in the not so distant future,
the Sherpas will have a monopoly on Nepalese guiding just as
the guides in Chamonix do.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 17, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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When the sherpas have a monoply the rich folks will still be hiring consultants to find the best guides.
What does WB say? Stoopid Americans?
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zoom loco
Mountain climber
san diego ca
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May 17, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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Swapping is ideal but even following every pitch is way superior to jugging fixed lines, never even roped to your guide.
But in any case, if there are going to be some fixed number of unqualified climbers on big mountains, endangering and tainting the experience of others, is it not best that they are concentrated on as small a number of peaks as possible?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 17, 2012 - 03:57am PT
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hey there say, donini...
had more time to read tonight on the ol' taco...
thanks for the post/thread here...
say, as to this quote from what you posted:
Alex Lowe once told me, after he had successfully guided Everest twice, that he decided to stop guiding the mountain because he felt that the saftey margin was insufficient with such unqualified clients. This conversation happened a year before the Scott Fisher et al tragedy
i of course, do not know anything about all this, but will surely go read up on it... have read about alex lowe, from the taco...
also, high traverse, thanks for you share here, too...
long interesting read, many thoughts here...
jan--thanks for sharing, as well... as to the sherpas... always wondered about there future, too, after reading a variety of posts here...
night all..
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 17, 2012 - 09:51am PT
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What is moral guiding? What is responsible guiding? Many years ago I was guiding on Denali and learning from some of the best, Scott Woolums, Vern Tejas, Dave Staheli. All three were very conscientious of their clients, had exceptional mountain knowledge and experience.
I also worked with one or two Guides I could not stand and even as a very serious very young mountaineer I thought they had terrible safety habits and were just plain lucky not to have gotten anyone killed.
The basic rule of guiding is the "the client is trying to kill you, themselves and everyone around them".
Generally said tongue in cheek but not without some truth to it.
As a guide I met clients I really liked and clients I wished were not there. Some had solid experience and were people who I would have climbed with in real life, They simply payed to have someone to go with as it can be hard to find folks to do Denali with.
Most clients on Denali would not have been able to do the mountain without guides as they simply had no idea when it came to big mountain logistics. A few clients had no business on the mountain at all.
A good guide is doing a VERY MORAL job. He is the experienced pro watching over and helping a lot of very decent folks attain their dream. An amazing experience that will be with them for life. Perhaps the most value you get in life. In my way of looking at the world thats a very worthy service. A good guide likes people and gets a lot of enjoyment in getting to know his clients and seeing them succeed. In the case of the occasional terrible client you wish would go home or disappear off the face of the earth, They maintain their composure and soldier on as best possible.
-----------------------------------------------
Guides have to be solid. Generally they shouldn't be guiding stuff they could not solo. Why? because their first job in is to get everyone home alive and unscathed. This means not only being able to climb it all, but do so tending to a 200lb sack of potatoes if necessary. They make ALL the decisions when it comes to client safety.
Is guiding everest moral? I guess my answer comes down to this.
I feel it is not right to take people who are not fully sharing the RESPONSIBILTY for the safety of the climb into a place where you can barely ensure even your own safety. Everest is objectively hazardous for even the best climbing TEAMS who spend countless hours for a year planning together and eventually climbing together.
On the SC route the icefall is not safe period. It is basically insanity to go up it. On most mountains a route through an icefall like that isn't considered by reasonable mountaineers. Summit day on any route will tax the best in the world close to their limit.
Had several conversations with Alex Lowe about Everest and one thing that stunned me was him describing occasionally passing out or almost passing out along the summit ridge when summitting w/0 oxygen. (I had been asking him some questions regarding skiing from the summit of Everest and other 8000m peaks)
Alex freaking Lowe!! Pushed to the limit. Even with Oxygen he said it was very tough.
On a mountain that can push you to your limit of safety I don't think it is moral to be making the safety decisions, Life and death decisions for other folks. Everyone involved in this type of endeavour should be FULLY involved and working as a full member of the team.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 17, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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vitaliy m , what do you mean too many routes plastered ? like sugarloaf???
huh?
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steve shea
climber
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May 17, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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You cannot tag adjacent more reasonable peaks unless they are on the permit. If you go off the reservation and poach a peak and are seen by the LO, it could cost much more or worse, be banned. Poaching can be done, just not in the Khumbu. Ask me how I know heh heh... Also that guy in the MSNBC story trained all wrong. Once you have a good baseline fitness, just climb. Finger tip pull ups and fartleks sp. will not get you up. About six weeks out start to pound beer, cheeseburgers and ice cream. You will lose weight on the trek in so go fat. And you cannot train for consistent high altitude acclimatization. The body reacts differently each trip. Just luck. The best thing is to go in fat and relax, go slow. You will acclimatize at your own rate. Once you are ready for a push, you will know. Then all the climbing experience will kick in. Another reason to go to the "lesser peaks", acclimatization is much easier and no O's.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 17, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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going to a high mountain fat and relaxed is the only way.
although it was a bit disconcerting to witness ms. hawkins
cantankerous derrier on the approach to k2. she slimmed down by the
end of the trip.
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