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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 16, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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The Corpses thread got me thinking about the issue of guiding on Everest and other 8000 meter peaks. I feel that the motives of most clients on Everest are similar to those of a big game trophy hunter. Ah...the glory of being the second guy at the water cooler in some Manhatten office building to have summited the highest point on Earth. Not exactly the motives of dedicated alpinists who spend years perfecting their skills in order to explore the challenges of alpine faces far from public scrutiny.
Many of these clients are unqualified or barely qualified to be in such a rareified and dangerous environment. Dick Base once said to me..."hell, I never said I was a climber, I can't even tie a knot." Guides have little reason to do serious vetting of the few with the time and money for such a trip. Money in the bank for the guides, nothing else to say.
Alex Lowe once told me, after he had successfully guided Everest twice, that he decided to stop guiding the mountain because he felt that the saftey margin was insufficient with such unqualified clients. This conversation happened a year before the Scott Fisher et al tragedy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Since when do people let morals stand in the way of making a living?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Good question...then there was Alex Lowe.
Given that, why be concerned about the body count?
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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If you have lots of money and time it seems you can buy your way up most peaks or routes these days. Hence the reason I am not really impressed with things like climbing the 7 summits. If I was rich and had nothing else to do I just might go climb Everest as well.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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Doing the Seven Summits shouldn't be regarded as climbing.
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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Only when one dove tails all their actions with Chomolungma (Mt Everest) only then has one actually reached her summit.
Only a real bonafide guide and student is able to do this .........
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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May 16, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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I'm with you.
IMO, there ought to be a major rethinking of the whole business when it comes to 8000m peaks.
Sent from my couch.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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The most annoying thing about Everest is that every non-climber who finds out you are a climber wants to know if you're ever going to climb it. I get a lot of blank stares when I tell them I have no interest in getting short-roped up a trash heap.
I usually tell them that there are many better objectives to be had and that the tallest doesn't equate to the best. Usually more blank stares.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 16, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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what's the bid for an ascent of Olympus Mons?
Olympus Mons is a big volcano. It is almost unimaginably huge. It is 550 kilometers (342 miles) across at its base, and the volcanic crater (the technical term is ‘caldera’) at the peak is 80 kilometers (53 miles) long. If you were standing at the edge of the caldera, the volcano is so broad and the slopes are so gradual that the base of the volcano would be beyond the horizon. That’s right, it is a volcano so big that it curves with the surface of the planet.
And it is tall. 27 kilometers tall. That’s 16.7 miles from base to summit. 88,600 feet. That’s about three times as tall as Mt. Everest. Even Mauna Kea, Earth’s own giant shield volcano doesn’t come close. Measured from the sea floor to its summit, Mauna Kea is 33,476 feet (10.2 km) tall: taller than Everest, but only about 40% the height of Olympus Mons.
Ok, so throwing those numbers around is fun if you like stats, but it still doesn’t convey quite how tall Olympus Mons is. So here’s an eye opener. Olympus Mons is so tall that it essentially sticks up out of Mars’s atmosphere. The atmosphere on Mars is thin to begin with, but at the summit of Olympus Mons, it is only 8% of the normal martian atmospheric pressure. That is equivalent to 0.047% of Earth’s pressure at sea level. It’s not quite sticking up into space, but it’s pretty darn close. In fact, it was first confirmed to be a huge mountain when Mariner 9 saw it towering above the top of a global dust storm like an island in a rust-colored sea. http://martianchronicles.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/olympus-mons-is-how-tall/
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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Some of those dipshits on the Everest series from discovery channel couldn't even put their own crampons on. But heck they had 75 grand to give Russel so up they went.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 16, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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"Guiding Everest is not morally defensible"
Most true climbers would agree, but it ain't gonna stop.
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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May 16, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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I totally agree with Jim, Having guided in Rocky Mountain National Park for the last 8 summers and realizing the extra risks that guides take just to get clients up moderate alpine climbs I don't think that there is any way guides can sufficiently reduce the risk in an environment like everest. Short roping is one of the most dangerous things guides do because you are connected to the client and often not connected to the mtn. Additionally I don't think the summit counts unless you share in the lead. I know that sounds hypocritical coming from a guide but I think most real climbers (leaders and trad in my opinion)would agree that if you didn't share the lead than you definitely missed some critical part of the climbing experience. Many of the clients I have worked with are similar to Jim's antecdote about some banker standing around the water cooler bragging about what they climbed when without the guide or a qualified leader they would never have climbed the route. There was a recent article in rock and ice (i think) that talked about how everest is irrelevant to climbers because it has been dumbed down so much that all is needed is an ability to use an ascender and climber a ladder or fixed line. If some badass took me up the sea of dreams I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror and claim I climbed it unless I lead my share of the pitches. And I think we can all agree that if someone turned that route into a bolt ladder it would still take you to an amazing place with great views but other than that it would be meaningless. Just my 2 cents
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 16, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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I hear Jim on this and to some extent I totally agree. But there are a bunch of gray-area factors here which make this no easy issue to understand and evaluate. I don't have time to dig into this now but the business of short-roping people up long stretches above 25,000 feet is largely overstated. And if someone actually does this, and later flies apart with pulmonary problems, you have to consider that the professional should have known better, not the client. What's more, many of those peaks are not so much "climbing" in the normal sense of he word (technical), but are basically the most brutal kind of slogs. And in many cases, world class hikers are in fact more suited for this work than an ace ice climber and alpinist, talents that never remotely come into play on the big ass slogs. For instance, my friend Sandy Hill can rock climb okay but it's not her thing. But she's a genetic freak cardio wise, with a VO uptake capacity in the upper 5% and she can hike like few I have ever seen before - she literally just flies up trails. Most of the Seven Summits she did alpine style with just one other person because she can hike so fast and altitude rarely bothers her. That kind of person is always going to fare up better on a big mountain slog than I (technical climber) will. So if I ever got up on those big peaks and shagged out, I could just as easily be accused of being unfit for being up there because my cardio is only average and I've never been a crazy-fast hiker - which are really the go-to aspects you want up there on the big ass slogs.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 16, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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Everest? Hell, the problem is abundantly clear even on Mt. Hood. Just about anyone can get up and down it on a decent day, but if anything at all goes sideways then most of those same folks aren't going to have a clue as to how to respond.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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I think the problem is viewing 'climbing Everest' as the same type of 'climbing' that most of us on this forum do. If there was a fixed rope all the way up El Capitan and all you had to do was just 'jumar' up it to top out, I don't think anyone here on SuperTopo would do that and say they had climbed El Capitan.
Everest is the exception, K2 is a mountain that everyone, as of 2012, has to 'climb' to get to the summit.
As far as guiding is concerned, yes, there are some unscrupulous guiding services which will take $$$$ from unqualified clients and put not just their team, but everyone on the mountain, at risk. But, there are other examples of guide companies who impose time limits, etc. to weed out those who are not qualified.
Look at this year on the south side of Everest. Russell Brice of Himex pulled the plug on his whole effort because of rockfall on the Lhotse Face. If he was really into just for the money, he probably wouldn't have done that.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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I'm not thinking about the locals, the Nepalese are some of the poorest people on Earth and whatever they due to keep life and limb together is okay with me. I am talking about the First World guides and guide services who have many other options available.
Never said anything about trying to ban guiding on Everest, that would be an exercise in futility.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 16, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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In '96 Scott Fischer came to the same conclusion and wrote to me after bringing Dale Kruse down.
It went out by runner, and Scott went back up on the mountain to tend his other clients.
I got the news before the mail reached me.
Too many people fail to understand the difference between legal and moral.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I wonder what it will take to conclude such foolishness.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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Who said that guiding, commercial mountaineering generally, and indeed climbing and mountaineering have anything to do with style, morals or ethics? Once money and "fame" are in the equation, isn't it pretty much a race to the bottom, so to speak?
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OldEric
Trad climber
Westboro, MA
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May 16, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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So is your beef about the guides - as your subject title would imply - or the clients - as the majority of your rant implies?
The guides are just doing what guides have done for decades - whore themselves out to suppose their lifestyle. No different then working for Exum.
The clients by and large are extremely successful type A people. They have been successful in the real world in a way you never were able to - do I detect a tad of jealousy?
How dose what the clients or guides do effect YOU? why don't you just worry about your own climbing?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 16, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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"dumb, greedy guides"
Frozen ball sacks will break your toes or foot bones. Those guides know that. They are such cruel, mis-guided people, used to being taken advantage of, yet they too are just trying to make a living. How conflicted some of those boys must be about their jobs. No wonder Alo made his choice. A Cosmic Comic bump for his spirit. Those dudes whose remains sit up there are laffin so hard...
Don't stop now.
Frankly, knowing Jim's rep, he has no need to be jealous. He is doing the right thing by asking the question.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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Hardly a rant Old Eric, please don't stroke out on me. It's the internet, I am voicing an opinion based on my many years in the mountains, others, like you, might not agree.
Bruce Kay +1
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 16, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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"what guides have done for decades - whore themselves out to suppose their lifestyle."
You make me feel so dirty.
And no....it's not the same.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 16, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Donini takes first on a passed ball sack. What an at-bat. Ten foul ball sacks in a row...
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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May 16, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
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The most annoying thing about people on Everest to me is the trash pile they leave behind (non organic).
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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I was a guide for seven years in the Tetons. Alex Lowe guided on and off for most of his life. Nothing at all wrong with guiding, it has a long and, mostly, honorable history. The question is that some have wondered what is legitimate, given the margin of saftey and other considerations, to guide and what isn't. I agree that it is largely a personal decision.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 16, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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I guided my way through college and grad school and have nothing against it.
He wrote: "The guides are just doing what guides have done for decades - whore themselves out to suppose their lifestyle. No different then working for Exum."
Is it the case that everyone who lends their expertise to something or someone is a whore? Is a "virgin" someone who is pure, but broke and does not work?
JL
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 16, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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"The most annoying thing about people on Everest"
It is a small point, considering, but everyone seems to err in this regard:
The name of Sir George, the Welshman who surveyed India, is pronounced with a long "e" not a short "e." Like "Donini ain't no weenie."
EE-vrest. Sir George EE-vrest. Not Ever rest. Not Ev rest.
You can say Chomolungma with practised ease, so what's the problem?
Ah, no one seems to know or care. I care. It annoys me to hear Hondle, when it is Handle (Handel), Rooeez (Ruiz) when it's reese. Pay attention, Norvegion (Norwegian).
But what do the Welsh expect with such a perverse tongue?
Eve rest his soul. And the souls of all the departed.
You guys got "Exum" down cold, though.
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micronut
Trad climber
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May 16, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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I was recently in REI....buying a swivel in the climbing area....when a dude walks in spouting about summiting Everest recently to any employee within 10 meters. Fit dude, short shorts. Probably did summit. He's talkin all loud and braggerdy and really kind of a tool. No lie, he actually said "It's like you're on top of the world." He had gathered a bit of a crowd, including some shoppers.
I couldn't help it.....I straight faced him,
I said, "Dude, great job...but you know they measured it a year ago and its now the third tallest. Yeah...National geographic did an article on it a while back. But third tallest is still pretty cool."
The blood literally drained out of his face. I felt kinda bad, but had a chuckle and went on my way. Am I evil?
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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May 16, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Your only evil deed was stepping into REI.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 16, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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Guides who show people their Tetons are like topless dancers, but guides who rely on Sherpas to risk building a yellow brick road for one percenters are pimps.
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rmsusa
Trad climber
Boulder
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May 16, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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It's certainly dangerous, but I don't see a moral issue guiding a person who's been fully informed. Individual guides might decide not to do it anymore, but you'll have to explain the moral issue to me. Seems to me that if the guide is fully qualified and performing to capabilities with a fully informed client, s/he's acting morally no matter what happens along the way.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
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Way to bring to bring the tool back to earth there Micro. Well played.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 16, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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"He had gathered a bit of a crowd, including some shoppers"
Yeah, it always makes me shake my head how being guided up Everest earns the instant respect & deference of the inexperienced.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 16, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Took you long enough to get there, P'ton. But succinct.
"Well-played."
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 16, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
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"Guides who show people their Tetons are like topless dancers, "
Nice analogy...but that's just not a fair characterization.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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So when is the first beat-down?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 16, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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Doing the Seven Summits shouldn't be regarded as climbing.
It isn't.
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micronut
Trad climber
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May 16, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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Vitaliy got hauled up Third Pillar by a Cheburashka. I don't think he is qualified to comment on this thread.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 16, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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Doing the Seven Summits is climbing. You just got to swap leads. If you bring a guide, you should still try to swap leads. But then, perhaps the reason you need to buy a guide to swap leads is that you are a screw-up or an egomaniac with few "friends" who can't take your A-type sh#t diring a climb. I hope I never meet a stooge that is that messed up that he has to hire a guide to get the top seven. What a loser from the get-go.
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Mister_Roborto
Trad climber
Queensland
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May 16, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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Might anyone know how much a fully qualified IFMGA/UIAGM guide from the West will get paid for an Everest XPD by one of the top tier companies (there are only a small few who are truly top tier)?
Theree's alot of time spent waiting and acclimatizing, anyone know how much 'mountain school' clients get while hanging out with their guides from the top tier companies while on the mountain?
Anyone aware that the top tier guide Everest in accordance with the UIAGM charter?
Anyone know the accident/incident rate among Himlayan Experience and Adventure Consultants run trips?
Huge respect for Alex and no intending to slight the man. Might you know how much did Alex get paid for guiding millionaires up Everest?
Back in the day, you only had to guide Everest twice to then have a tonne of cash to secure a humble home. Many of the world's best guides don't get paid anything like that much these days and guide for reasons in addition to income.
Ever guided the BI in the Tetons while hikers crossed above your client in the early morns?
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murf02
climber
NYC
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May 16, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Or just hike it (and clean up after yourself).
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tom Carter
Social climber
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May 16, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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Does this immorality trickle down? Say from the Big E to Rainier, to El Cap, the Grand and After Six?
It is easy to forget (and it may not change a thing) that for many of those "clients" (on ascenders or not), that single effort was really digging deep - they put out physically, mentally and financially. so that conversation at the cooler is expected....
Like my friend CC once told me about ski guiding, "Carter, you are just a glorified ski caddy".
Are caddys pimps too???
Parking attendent?
Good discussion
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 16, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
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of the various immoral things in the world, this is not in the top one percent of the ones that bother me.
each minute those one per centers spend on everest is a minute they're not evicting someone or finding some way to screw me out of more banking fees. plus, some of them die up there.
and it may distort the local economy in weird ways, but it's not like there appears to be a good viable alternative at the moment.
so pump it up
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 16, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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"Rationalize and romanticize it all you want, but the impact to the environment outweighs any financial benefit to the guide."
Sounds like your primary definition of morality is related to environmental impact. OK...I get that...but if that's your sole consideration, you need to stay out of the mountains.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 16, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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I'm guessing getting to the top of Everest his harder than people think. I climbed with a guy who was a strong multi-discipline climber who summited (without a guide) and he said it was super burly.
Anyway, I say so long as the client is informed of the narrow margins then no moral problems.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Probably did summit.
I thought the appropriate question is Did he swap leads?
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 16, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
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It isnt the point of guiding, its HOW the guiding is being done no? Is Deanli being trashed like Everest??
The popularity on many peaks has turned them into a little bit of a sht show. The west buttress on Denali does show impacts popularity (guides and clients are only part of the impact) including human waste issues and a season fixed rope that is put in. Rainer is another example.
Guiding these peaks is so lucrative that guide services have to have a concession and poacher guides will take clients up these peaks also.
Good thing there are other peaks where you won’t see another sole, although less people are impressed when you spray about climbing them around the water cooler.
I had the pleasure of seeing a slide show on an early attempt on Annapura, at the time you had to take a train from India to Nepal just to start the trek. They failed but had a grand adventure, things change and those types of adventures are harder to come by. I don’t think morality is part of the equation but somewhere along the line guiding these peaks has decreased some of the experience.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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This is a very simple practical problem. Why are we invoking morality? I can't think of even one moral issue that has actually ever been resolved.
Hard to understand.......
Maybe if our brains had become enlarged before, not after, we started walking on two legs
things would have been different.
What we have here is a purely amygdalaic response.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Although test pilots at Edwards mock the Mercury program for sending "spam in a can" into space, they recognize that they are no longer the fastest men on Earth, and Yeager states that "it takes a special kind of man to volunteer for a suicide mission, especially when it's on national TV." While testing the new Lockheed NF-104A, Yeager attempts to set a new altitude record at the edge of space but is nearly killed in a high-speed ejection when his engines fail. Though badly burned, after reaching the ground Yeager gathers up his parachute and walks to the ambulance, proving that he still has the Right Stuff
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 16, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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neverest buttress, kangshung face,a new route by four people in 1988.
one person summited
barneys tried to guide some vaseline lady up
this route in the 1994?
i agree with jim.
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steve shea
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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Stewart, nice photo you can see where Boardman and Tasker are sitting. I agree with jstan; nothing has really been debated or resolved. Forget Everest. There are thousands of high angle, quality alpine routes to be done on 6K and 7Km peaks. You can still hire sherpa kitchen and base camp cooks, you can still hire yak herders, you must have an LO. You get to have all the culture and accoutrement of an 8Km peak for a mere pittance without the crap and stigma of having climbed the world's highest rubble heap by the South Col Highway. The Kangshung, that is where Ed Webster lost his digits.
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Jeff Rhoads
climber
UT
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May 16, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Please people and climbers. quit bitching about people that want to experience any mountain, Everest, Mtn. Hood as a client. Don't they have the right of that experience? Just because they don't have the years of experience and climbing that you do and they don't live the life you do, Give them a break.
It is SO easy to bash people that want to try what you are so good at. You may not agree with there choose of climb or way it is done. Why are you so concerned?
Everest will always be guided from now on. Don't go if you think it is not worth it. But support people that want to feel what we do and experience the joy of maybe not the summit but of the mountains. The guides are there because THEY believe the the clients. And it is a way for them to make a living doing what they say they enjoy, to a point.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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Weld-it:
Let's say I am dying of anthrax. Am I being inconsiderate if I do the suicide bomb thing on Fifth Avenue during rush hour?
Just askin.
Cough cough.
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steve shea
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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Tami is right! Somehow we climbers must devalue a climb of Everest. That will solve it. No one will want to climb it if it is considered to be just another bump on the landscape even if it is as high as sh#t can be stacked. Or it could be that an alpine style ascent of say, Kanchenjunga or Gyachungkang should be a prequisite for Everest. That would do it. I'm tellin' ya, 7Km peaks is where it is happening. No guides no clients just you and the mountain.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 16, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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Vitaliy you need to read my book "Everest The Ultimate Hump".
I'd read it, if I had time to read! I been trying to climb every day that I don't work (sitting here, on the days that I do work). Word is I am getting more hours cut so may spent less time here : )
You won't change that as long as weenies are impressed by the tick mark on the bucket list. WHich sucks but there it is.
I think a lot of people there do it because they think it will be a huge personal challenge not particularly to impress others. For majority, the drive is not any worse than the drive to climb 5.XX. Us humans want others to respect our accomplishments, no matter what bug we get sick with (general mountaineering, climbing, modeling, table tennis, whatever we do, we want to be better than average). To be honest before I started climbing I did watch Everest Beyond the Limit and thought it would be a huge personal challenge to do 7 summits. Going to the mountains often got me out of that bug, and got me addicted to climbing (first scrambling around Sierra, rock climbing next, and now ice as well. My favorite climbing is climbing technical rock/ice routes on actual peaks away from crowds). Regular family folks who can afford to do one big trip a year (Whitney> Shasta> Rainier> Kilimanjaro> Aconcagua> Denali> Everest> Retire) can't spent so much time in the regular mountains, and fall in love with own "little" ranges. So I can't blame them. It is still a big personal accomplishment for them, even if it's 'just a slog up a dog route.' I know people who climbed 8000M peaks but it doesn't seem like 'the public' really gives a sh#t. It is something they may mention at a party and will raise their 'social value,' but no one really does give a fk. Especially in climbing circles outside 'the gym' scene.
As I said, I just have a problem with all these ridiculous claims to be the first XXXXXX to summit Everest. Although maybe some poor people do it to get sponsors since prices to go there are ridiculous, especially if you want a guide.
Stewart Johnson, your accomplishment with the route on Everest is amazing. Do you have any other climbs planned away from Sierra?
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DanaB
climber
CT
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May 16, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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Too many people fail to understand the difference between legal and moral.
Yes, indeed.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 16, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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I wonder how much C4 it would take to lower Everest's summit so that K2 is the highest.
The nepalese could build a pressurized hotel on the mesa, and the new highest mountain in the world would only be reached by REAL climbers.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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What about sherpas? Those greedy f*#kers are profiting off the trashing of the mountains.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 16, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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This thread is full of envy.
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Wormly81
Trad climber
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May 16, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
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After having read the first page, its obvious to me that this thread smacks of egotistical ugliness. Not much different than the egotistical behavior of someone who wants to climb a big mountain to feel special. Pot, meet kettle.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
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Hey, worm, we're talkin' about legalizing prostitution, not Sigmund Freud.
Oh, and there's more than a few here who have been 'high'.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 16, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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Back on topic, sort of.
There are several issues floating around here.
Why just Everest?
Why not similar less-technical (easy for me to say, I haven't been up there) peaks such as Kanchenjunga?
Why not the "trade routes" on Denali? Guided clients have died on Rainier, Shasta.
There seems to be a moral question about assumption of risk. When one pays big $ to be guided up a peak who's fault is it when the climb goes Tetons-up? Is the guide ever at fault?
Should a guide ever accept the responsibility for taking clients up mountains with such great objective risk?
Is he/she at fault when the clients are demonstrably at risk due to their own ineptitude/lack of skill or conditioning? What about the risk one client can cause the team by a screwup?
What about the risk one party causes another party when the crap hits the fan? When should the guide turn the whole party around?
Consider that a great deal of the risk involves lack of experience and judgement when things get desperate regardless of physical conditioning.
What about the environmental impact? You guide people who are not top level in conditioning, experience and skill to the Summit, or not to the Summit. Who's responsible for putting out the extra effort to get the empty O2 bottles or shredded tents off the mtn?
These issues arise nearly as often on Denali as Everest.
In my very limited experience, I've seen Tetons guides turn individual clients around at Lower Saddle when they could see the client was not likely to make it. Why doesn't this apply to Everest/Denali? Of course the $$ at risk is about 300X. A powerful financial incentive for both guide and client.
I've specifically called it a moral rather than a legal question.
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aguacaliente
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
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There's a difference between immoral and unethical. (As I see it) morality is about basic shared human values (thou shalt not kill, or poop upstream from a village's water supply, etc). While ethics is more related to agreed upon standards of behavior within a group (thou shalt not drive a piton or a bolt if a chock will do, or pass on a climb without asking).
I'm not sure if Donini meant that guiding Everest was immoral or unethical, or both. Some things, like refusing to take part in a rescue or walking past a person in need of assistance because it would jeopardize your summit bid, are clearly immoral to me, but are they unethical? I don't have much clue what the ethical standards are above 8000 meters. We are talking about a hobby that was started by enthusiastic amateurs whose interests happened to conveniently overlap the interests of national pride and empire.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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May 16, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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DUCK THE SHIAT IS A FLYING
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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I agree with everything Donidni has said.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 16, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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I don't have much clue what the ethical standards are above 8000 meters.
+1
It is easy to judge actions of others while you have not 'lived the moment.'
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 16, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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my point is: dont bag on everest its a mountain. lots of other routes
besides the two milky routes with the remnants of eighty years which most people think is the only way up.
you wont see too many teams off of these routes.
even new routes could be opened ,if youve got a screw loose and get lucky.
sh#t, we didnt see anyone all season at our bc on the main rongbuk! of course that was the nineties baby!
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Southwest for the winter
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May 16, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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Did all of the people whose expeditions pulled out at least enjoy the time there at basecamp and maybe tag some of the adjacent, perhaps more reasonable peaks? Regardless how much money I had thrown down for Everest, I would want to spend some time living in the mountains to get my moneys worth and make the most of my time.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 17, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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maybe tag some of the adjacent, perhaps more reasonable peaks?
LOL
There is only one mountain in the world. You either summit it, or you don't. Everything else doesn't matter.
Stewart Johnson, would be awesome if you posted more pics from there, K2, or anywhere else worthy..or posted any possible faces with not too many routes plastered
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 17, 2012 - 12:39am PT
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What's the pay for Sherpas compared to the Western guides on these gigs?
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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May 17, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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file under Stupid Sh#t White People Argue About
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 17, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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The smart Sherpas are setting up their own guide services so
they can employ their relatives and reap all the rewards.
Someday soon, western dirtbags will be working for
Sherpa bosses and sometime in the not so distant future,
the Sherpas will have a monopoly on Nepalese guiding just as
the guides in Chamonix do.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 17, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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When the sherpas have a monoply the rich folks will still be hiring consultants to find the best guides.
What does WB say? Stoopid Americans?
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zoom loco
Mountain climber
san diego ca
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May 17, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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Swapping is ideal but even following every pitch is way superior to jugging fixed lines, never even roped to your guide.
But in any case, if there are going to be some fixed number of unqualified climbers on big mountains, endangering and tainting the experience of others, is it not best that they are concentrated on as small a number of peaks as possible?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 17, 2012 - 03:57am PT
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hey there say, donini...
had more time to read tonight on the ol' taco...
thanks for the post/thread here...
say, as to this quote from what you posted:
Alex Lowe once told me, after he had successfully guided Everest twice, that he decided to stop guiding the mountain because he felt that the saftey margin was insufficient with such unqualified clients. This conversation happened a year before the Scott Fisher et al tragedy
i of course, do not know anything about all this, but will surely go read up on it... have read about alex lowe, from the taco...
also, high traverse, thanks for you share here, too...
long interesting read, many thoughts here...
jan--thanks for sharing, as well... as to the sherpas... always wondered about there future, too, after reading a variety of posts here...
night all..
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 17, 2012 - 09:51am PT
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What is moral guiding? What is responsible guiding? Many years ago I was guiding on Denali and learning from some of the best, Scott Woolums, Vern Tejas, Dave Staheli. All three were very conscientious of their clients, had exceptional mountain knowledge and experience.
I also worked with one or two Guides I could not stand and even as a very serious very young mountaineer I thought they had terrible safety habits and were just plain lucky not to have gotten anyone killed.
The basic rule of guiding is the "the client is trying to kill you, themselves and everyone around them".
Generally said tongue in cheek but not without some truth to it.
As a guide I met clients I really liked and clients I wished were not there. Some had solid experience and were people who I would have climbed with in real life, They simply payed to have someone to go with as it can be hard to find folks to do Denali with.
Most clients on Denali would not have been able to do the mountain without guides as they simply had no idea when it came to big mountain logistics. A few clients had no business on the mountain at all.
A good guide is doing a VERY MORAL job. He is the experienced pro watching over and helping a lot of very decent folks attain their dream. An amazing experience that will be with them for life. Perhaps the most value you get in life. In my way of looking at the world thats a very worthy service. A good guide likes people and gets a lot of enjoyment in getting to know his clients and seeing them succeed. In the case of the occasional terrible client you wish would go home or disappear off the face of the earth, They maintain their composure and soldier on as best possible.
-----------------------------------------------
Guides have to be solid. Generally they shouldn't be guiding stuff they could not solo. Why? because their first job in is to get everyone home alive and unscathed. This means not only being able to climb it all, but do so tending to a 200lb sack of potatoes if necessary. They make ALL the decisions when it comes to client safety.
Is guiding everest moral? I guess my answer comes down to this.
I feel it is not right to take people who are not fully sharing the RESPONSIBILTY for the safety of the climb into a place where you can barely ensure even your own safety. Everest is objectively hazardous for even the best climbing TEAMS who spend countless hours for a year planning together and eventually climbing together.
On the SC route the icefall is not safe period. It is basically insanity to go up it. On most mountains a route through an icefall like that isn't considered by reasonable mountaineers. Summit day on any route will tax the best in the world close to their limit.
Had several conversations with Alex Lowe about Everest and one thing that stunned me was him describing occasionally passing out or almost passing out along the summit ridge when summitting w/0 oxygen. (I had been asking him some questions regarding skiing from the summit of Everest and other 8000m peaks)
Alex freaking Lowe!! Pushed to the limit. Even with Oxygen he said it was very tough.
On a mountain that can push you to your limit of safety I don't think it is moral to be making the safety decisions, Life and death decisions for other folks. Everyone involved in this type of endeavour should be FULLY involved and working as a full member of the team.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 17, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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vitaliy m , what do you mean too many routes plastered ? like sugarloaf???
huh?
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steve shea
climber
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May 17, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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You cannot tag adjacent more reasonable peaks unless they are on the permit. If you go off the reservation and poach a peak and are seen by the LO, it could cost much more or worse, be banned. Poaching can be done, just not in the Khumbu. Ask me how I know heh heh... Also that guy in the MSNBC story trained all wrong. Once you have a good baseline fitness, just climb. Finger tip pull ups and fartleks sp. will not get you up. About six weeks out start to pound beer, cheeseburgers and ice cream. You will lose weight on the trek in so go fat. And you cannot train for consistent high altitude acclimatization. The body reacts differently each trip. Just luck. The best thing is to go in fat and relax, go slow. You will acclimatize at your own rate. Once you are ready for a push, you will know. Then all the climbing experience will kick in. Another reason to go to the "lesser peaks", acclimatization is much easier and no O's.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 17, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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going to a high mountain fat and relaxed is the only way.
although it was a bit disconcerting to witness ms. hawkins
cantankerous derrier on the approach to k2. she slimmed down by the
end of the trip.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 17, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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Yes like sugarloaf, or even like one of the popular peaks where every fuk is trying to make a line on...
I used to be fairly fat, I think I can gain a bit of weight before an expedition LOL
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thirsty
climber
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May 17, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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After years of instruction and guiding, including a fair amount at altitude and on glaciated peaks out of country, I started to think that we would be better off prohibiting any professional exploitation of any mountains or other climbing areas. Given the impossibility of that happening, there is a difference between responsible and less responsible guiding. The more responsible approach focuses on instruction and giving clients the tools they need to climb on their own in the future, not getting them up peaks. The ability to take responsibility for one's own actions is central to climbing. An instructional trip can often include doing some routes and summiting something exciting, but I for one would always explain that they were not climbing the route, they were being guided up it, regardless of how hard it was for them. I would encourage them to come back and do it on their own with friends/peers some day so they could say they climbed it. It might be a good idea for more climbers and publications to be explicit about the difference between climbing something and being guided up it, the same way we differentiate between top roping and leading something. I suppose that wouldn't be so good for publications that need advertising from guiding companies, but how much does that really contribute I wonder.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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May 17, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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Eric Shipton wrote a good piece on the mass assault/climbing for the ego mentality at the beginning of his story (if I remember correctly) of their exploration of the Karakorum in the 1930s, called A Blank on the Map.
He addresses very well the broader ethical delemma outside of the guiding issue: what are we doing this for, to appreciated and understand where we are, or just get to the top and then back to the old job, one more tick in our book?
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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May 17, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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I am not sure I am qualified to say what is morally defensible. I know for years the whole idea of climbing, has been questioned. I have yet to hear a descent answer the penultimate question "Why do we climb". "Because it's there" is too flippant. And until that question is fully answered; the question of guiding such endeavors has to wait.
If we start to question the morality of guiding Everest; does it stop there? Is it so morally different than other mountains. Or is Jim's question the way its being guided. I know that guiding is questioned as a legitimate occupation as well. Guiding can be like coaching or it can be like hauling. It depends on the client. I am sure there are lots of client/guide variations.
How pure do we want to be. Are we following steps cut into the mountain or is our gear being carried by someone else. Did we do it without oxygen. Did we lead every pitch. Is it a first ascent. Where does it stop.
The difference between the way Göran Kropp and Susan Hill climbed Everest is huge. Actually the way Göran and anyone for that mater. But they both put one foot in front of the other and made it back to share their experience in what ever way they choose to share.
The archaic notion of conquering the mountain is bullsht. It is more like seducing the mountain! Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don't. Yes, there is preventive steps to take in order to minimize the risk. But the risk is a key factor to the glory.
People are driven by their highest goals. Peoples goals differ. Who am I to say whats right for you. I know what is right for me and try not to get too caught up in comparing. When I push my envelope I grow. Setting limits and then surpassing them is different for everyone. If Everest is someones goal they have a right to try and achieve it. If they have to pay to achieve it, then so what.
Minimizing someones accomplishment because it was not done to my standards does not make it any less worthy. Fear and pain feels the same for everyone. But every-ones threshold is different. So for me it is the journey and the intention that really matters.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 17, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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"Why do we climb"
I still do not understand why people ask this question. It is like asking why do you go running, play basketball, jerk off to porn, eat doughnuts, or w/e. This question does not need an explanation.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 17, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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It is like asking why do you go running, play basketball, jerk off to porn, eat doughnuts, or w/e.
Somewhat presumptuous to assume we all eat donuts.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 17, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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rumor (not verified) fattrad jerks off to doughnuts (wearing Da Brim).
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 17, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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spanky's pennies are well-spent.
You have to count the guided ascent on your "tickage" because as a rich boy you are entitled to a) a double standard, b) the silence and tacit admission by a paid lackey that an ascent has been done, and c) to the adulation and deference of your peers, half of whom never make it up their attempted routes, by any means.
:) , sort of.
I'm well off the mark, but I ain't a pro. I just whored for the equipment makers. Well, we are talking "morals," so why not "whore."
Does "Route-Walker" sound more hip than "guide?"
Seriously, if you paid, you can still say you got laid.
If you were guided, the same logic seems to apply.
I guess. I've never hired. Either milieu, bed or cliff.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 17, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
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Somewhat presumptuous to assume we all eat donuts.
I don't do any of that nasty stuff 0:)
screw this thread, gone climbing!
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 17, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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It is like asking why do you go running, play basketball, jerk off to porn, eat doughnuts, or w/e.
Somewhat presumptuous to assume we all eat donuts.
And I'm terrible at Basketball.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 17, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
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We need Steve to post The Professionals by Tom Patey.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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May 17, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
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I'm not sure if Donini meant that guiding Everest was immoral or unethical, or both. Some things, like refusing to take part in a rescue or walking past a person in need of assistance because it would jeopardize your summit bid, are clearly immoral to me, but are they unethical? I don't have much clue what the ethical standards are above 8000 meters. We are talking about a hobby that was started by enthusiastic amateurs whose interests happened to conveniently overlap the interests of national pride and empire.
Well said. Recently read "Into The Silence". WWI, Malory and Everest. This is an amazing read and would do well to educate yourselves on this important part of mountaineering history.
Guiding is a serious business and I have the utmost respect for those in the profession. Guiding Everest is a respectable profession and clients are well aware of the risks. Let them climb!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 17, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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Not exactly the motives
Determing motives is a tough task to undertake. IMO judging them is even tougher.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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May 17, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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People climb for different reasons: achievement, flow, character-building, poise or grace, and finally (maybe) to a greater sense of self that rejects the initial reasons. Simpson & Lowe gave written and spoken testimony of those shifts in their lives; others have, too.
Expecting there to be uniformity in a community about purposes, values, and ethics is unreasonable. One part of the community cannot define the values and objectives of another part of the community.
I think these kinds of controversies keep the community vibrant and adaptable. A little disorder, tension, and even confusion is a good thing.
There will always be some folks who pine for the good old days.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 18, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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Moral judgement is best self directed...
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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May 18, 2012 - 01:15am PT
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If you need a guide most anywhere, you may be doing it wrong.
Just go. Or not. That's up to you.
You could die.....so what?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 18, 2012 - 02:05am PT
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Without a good definition of the guides job it is difficult to judge the morality of guiding.
As a past guide I only had one absolute rule..it's the same rule I have at all times climbing.
No one dies or gets hurt. Beyond fairly minor injuries I have been a successful climber and guide.
A guide however takes this up a notch he is making safety decisions for people not qualified to be there without his decisions.
The only moral thing you can do as a guide on Everest is let the clients know you cant save them and if things go bad you may not be able to save yourself.
The last two paragraphs seem too opposed to be compatible.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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May 18, 2012 - 10:54am PT
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I have no idea if the guide gig is morally defensible or not. But I do know that these fools that pay 85k for a snow trudge up Everest provide a huge source of economic stimulus to an otherwise very poor part of the world.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 18, 2012 - 10:59am PT
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First Everest 2012 Summits Just Announced - 10 Chilean, 10 Sherpa.
More Sherpa summits is the wave of the future!
http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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They need to make a hut up at the top of that mountain.
There will be some old bearded know it all dude sitting in there.
The mountain climbers will then go inside as they summit.
The dude will tell them they have not yet reached the real summit.
Everyone will go WTF man !!!!
Where is it !!! as they all slide back down into the hellish world below .....
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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May 18, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Ha-ha-ha-ha.
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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May 18, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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Apologies if someone already made this comment and I missed it but some might say that placing a bomber #3 Camalot and calling it a belay anchor is not morally defensible. Acceptable risk is relative.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 18, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
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On a serious note:
Do you think people climb Everest without thinking of the severity of it because they heard it's easier than a ton of other peaks, so in their head, they'll be perfectly fine, and all the deaths on the mountain resulted from "bad luck"?
Or because they want to be the second guy around the water cooler to climb it?
I'm not into mountaineering, I'm pretty sure I've never made it to the top of a 14,000 ft peak, why do people choose Everest?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 18, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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Annapurna is there in the winter, why not do that? :)
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 18, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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The dude will tell them they have not yet reached the real summit.
Everyone will go WTF man !!!!
Where is it !!! as they all slide back down into the hellish world below .....
Except for those crafty few who, having realized that they've already gotten higher than they ever thought they were going to, will stay and eat a pickle with the bearded dude, awaiting their chance to tell new arrivals that they have not reached the real summit.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 18, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Aw come on, that is silly. Guiding Everest is no more "not morally defensible" than guiding anywhere else. People wanna climb, guides and sherpas gotta eat.
My experience of guiding 5 seasons in the Tetons put me in some situations that I did not personally care for. When the afternoon thunderstorm is approaching, and you know how much your client paid for your services, the conflict of interest was obvious. Seemed weird to put all of that into a climbing situation. Especially when the folks in the office knew that truly telling potential clients what climbing the Grand was like would mostly just turn away business. Business that only lasts a couple of months each year.
Guiding Everest would be similar, except that there is a lot more at stake in regards to what the clients are paying, and the unforgiving demands of high altitude.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 19, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Rolwaling Excursions just put two Swedes and two Indonesians on the top
along with four Sherpas from my village. The leader was Chhiring Dorje, the
hero of the 2006 K2 disaster who is summmiting Everest for the 12th time.
His wife made him promise to never go to K2 again and stick with safer
guiding on Everest. All of the money spent at that mountaineering agency
goes to Rolwaling Sherpas. No middle men.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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May 19, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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if your a "guide"
or your a "pro"
or in the "industry"
or write "guidebooks"
you can not bitch about crowds or "climber-impact"
leave your crew behind
"let's ALL go to the meadows, it'll be so fun, of course you can bring your drums and
banjar"
God were cool!!!!
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 19, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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Morals shmorals !!
My Friend Kurt just summited !
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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May 19, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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A bit OT but am surprised it wasn't mentioned yet - the fast Swiss Ueli summited Everest solo without oxygen yesterday
edit - it wasn't a solo. Ueli Steck and his partner (21 year old) Tenzing used no additional O2
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 20, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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A 73 year old Japanese woman just summited yesterday as well.
She has now climbed it from both sides, the first time when she was 63.
Of course the first woman to summit Everest was Japanese also.
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MisterE
Social climber
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May 20, 2012 - 08:59am PT
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My friend Chad (who is trying to break the speed record on Everest) just posted this on his Facebook page:
Hello Friends!
Last night was a bad night on Everest. 6 people lost their lives trying to summit and return to the South Col. I was on a training run to Camp 3. The traffic was too heavy so I postponed my summit bid until the 26-27th. Send your thoughts and prayers out to the families of the deceast. Waiting for the call...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 20, 2012 - 09:40am PT
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I hope beyond hope this is a erroneous post by your friend, Erik.
I can't find any information on this yet.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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May 20, 2012 - 09:50am PT
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How about when a whole film production flies into the mountains and dominates the place for 2 or 4 weeks?
I thought we were talking about Everest, not the Buttermilks.
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Mister_Roborto
Trad climber
Queensland
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May 20, 2012 - 09:56am PT
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im's just arrogent, predictable and clueless, big talk for a guy who's never summited a 8000 meter peak.
A lot has to do with Nepals GNP, and there is no reason someone can't pay to do something really cool; no need for arrogent media darling to judge.
That comes on the back of thirty years of guiding, not selling jackets made by kids in China.
JD. Really..
Hey Coz. Are your opinions coming from having guided, or ever having been guided up on Everest? That would be pretty cool.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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May 20, 2012 - 10:07am PT
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How about when a whole film production flies into the mountains and dominates the place for 2 or 4 weeks?
My question regarding them would be:
"Did they bring Poop Tubes?"
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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Coz, your comments are nearly always among the least informed seen on this forum. You definetly have a bone to pick with me even though you don't know me. I think we met very briefly once in Eldo. You come off as bitter and petty and vindictive. I have held off from saying these things but you consistently attack me and not my arguments.
Intelligent discourse is appreciated, ad hominen arguments are not.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 20, 2012 - 10:49am PT
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donini has never even seen everest .
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 20, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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There was supposed to be a two day window of good weather on Everest but it
only lasted one day. Climbers have reported that it is very windy and snowing so
I'm guessing there have been fatalities and we will read about them after the
families have been notified.
I'm sure this will provoke yet another round of media criticism.
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jstan
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 10:55am PT
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No one has ever seen a god. Any god. Yet we have argued gods for thousands of years.
As I mentioned very early on, Jim's choice of the word "moral" was problematic. In the last 100,000 years, ever since our specie came into existence, I doubt any "moral" question has ever been resolved. If I am having trouble getting into my seat harness and I want to make the task impossible, I would do one of two things. I could jump into the flooded creek right above Yosemite Falls, or worse, I could claim use of a seat harness is immoral.
Jim might instead have said, merely, what we are doing on Everest is irresponsible. Very narcissistic and fundamentally self serving. That this circus is not our highest achievement.
I have proposed a very simple and practicable approach to the problem, so I need say no more about that.
Coz, I generally read your stuff. Some of it has been very good. This last can't be described in that way. But, hey, we all make mistakes. Mistakes have a truly wonderful property.
They can be turned into really important successes
merely by admitting they were mistakes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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I haven't been to Everest but I've done a lot of serious alpinism in numerous ranges around the World, including the HIimalayas. I also have experience as a guide. If you read my opening statement you will remember my conversation with Alex Lowe who guided the mountain twice.
This thread is not about me, it's about the situation on Everest and other 8000 meter peaks. I believe my experience over the years and my friendship with climbers familiar with Everest et al allows me, in good faith, to posit the question. Dissenting opinions are welcome and expected but, please, stick to the subject.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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May 20, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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Bruce Kay- "Generally speaking, yes they do."
AWESOME!
I actually have one additional question, and perhaps more "general" but none the less appropriate(imo)...
"Did they wear Da Brim?"
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 20, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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jim,so youve never been to nepal ?
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nopantsben
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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you guys questioning whether Jim has the right to say what he said in the OP about guiding everest are missing the point. (edited - too rude in v.1.)
to have an opinion on this subject you need a brain, not a stupid 8000m peak resume.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2012 - 11:14am PT
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You are correct, but I have climbed in the Himalayas of China, Pakistan and Tajikistan. You may remember a short time ago when some clients died on K2 because their fixed rope was severed and they were left to cope with a real climbing situation without the necessary skills. K2 is in Pakistan not far from the Choktoi and Biafo glaciers where I have climbed.
Again, it's not about me, it's about people being brought into serious mountain environments without the coping skills should things go wrong.
I think that my experiences both as a guide and as an alpine climber are sufficient for me to pose the question.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 20, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Isn't then the most experienced climber in a group of non-guided climbers, essentially the guide, and should that person perish, the group would be left without the vast experience of the now-departed most experienced climber, thus placing the group in the dire straights that Donini suggests is a pitfall of guiding from the moral perspective?
Actually it may simply be about degrees of grey and personal distaste for the $$$ involved.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 20, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Having just proofread a forthcoming book on K2, I beg to differ with
Jim's interpretation of events there in 2006. Most of the people who died
had the skills to descend without a fixed line but they lacked the judgement
to do so due to exhaustion and lack of oxygen.
Several ran out of oxygen because of long delays and mistakes made in fixing
the ropes to begin with. Many were killed in a succession of avalanches. Some
of the people who died were professional guides and some who made it down
that night were fairly amateur but better able genetically to survive at high
altitude. Many highly skilled people were simply unlucky.
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steve shea
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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I have been to Nepal and Tibet mulitple times. Two types of trips, expedition and alpine style. Some times with people I've known for a long time some I met for the first time in the airport on the flight in. I would say Donini is more than qualified to pose the question and wether or not he has set foot in Nepal Himal is beside the point. I would also say he probably has more mt experience than most of the folks on Everest right now. As jstan has posted nothing has been resolved but the posts are interesting...some of them. It is what keeps us coming back. The personal attacks not so much. I do not think genetics has much to do with acclimatizing. You can be predisposed to transport more oxygen but still fail miserably at altitude.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 20, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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Are you saying the Sherpas and Tibetans do not have an advantage at
altitude? All the research indicates otherwise. We've even discovered
at least some of the mutations on their DNA that makes it possible.
And yes, good thread and Jim is definitely qualified to comment!
You too, Steve.
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steve shea
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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I'm talking non local team members. You know, the clients, the guides and the folks with the dough. Each one of my trips inolved way different rates of acclimatizing and I was pretty fit and lived at 8000'. You are certainly correct though on the locals. I always marveled at the porters as well as the sherpas. On one trip the Freindship Bridge was closed on the Tibetan side due to mud slides. We had a truck loads of gear that needed to be moved across the bridge and up the hill to the waiting Chinese army vehicles. The porters carried extra loads of extra weight for more money. Tiny people were carrying 100lb loads, barefoot, up a muddy goat track so steep that if you fell you were going the dstance. They didn't even go up the road. Jan, I promise to put up Menlungtse.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 20, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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I'm definitely looking forward to those Melungtse photos when you have time!
Meanwhile, a couple of observations about aclimatizing. For me it always had to
do with speed of ascent while I've read that the early British expeditions noticed
that people who had been to the Himalaya before almost always re-acclimated
better the second time than newcomers who were younger and fitter.
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steve shea
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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I think they learned HOW to acclimatze.I don't know if you ever get used to it. Hypoxia happens. Most go too fast on the first trip. Everyone is fit and psyched up and blow it pushing too hard. I've seen it many times. Fat, relaxed and slow was what I learned worked best for me. Where I really noticed the differences in trips was once I was ready I never performed the same way twice.
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jstan
climber
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May 20, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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I'll try and look on the internet but I suspect the data will show autopsy on sherpas finds above average heart size and above average diameters for the circulatory system. When Secretariat was autopsied the heart weighed 22 pounds, A normal weight is 9 pounds. A genetic factor for heart size is known among horses.
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/nutbush/
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 20, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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I know that's true for the Indians in the Andes, but the Tibetans and Sherpas seem
to be able to process oxygen more efficiently rather than having larger hearts etc.
Check out
http://www.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pubmed/20838600
and related articles.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 20, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Again, it's not about me, it's about people being brought into serious mountain environments without the coping skills should things go wrong.
I think that my experiences both as a guide and as an alpine climber are sufficient for me to pose the question.
Correct and nail on head. Should someone risk somebody else's life? And the corollary: Should someone stop someone from risking someone else's life?
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Dover
Trad climber
New England
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May 20, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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A great thread with lots to think about. Thanks to Jim for starting it.
I wonder how much of the current Everest circus comes from the culture of climbing itself? I think about the idea that people are led up Everest who have limited qualifications. It reminds me of the Appie-Vulgarian wars in the Gunks. Granted, the vulgarians were certainly well-qualified, but the idea that there should be some standard of climber qualification got summarily thrown off the cliff. Maybe, too, it was part of the times, but clearly, the outcome was there should be no restrictions on climbers. Maybe we are paying the price for that now on Everest.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 20, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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I haven't seen anything emeritus about Donini yet - please tell me!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 20, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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Yes TAMI, dirtbags like us know, and to be honest he doesn't show much respect to old age. He seems to be making a joke of it.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 20, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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Hey,, if I have to have seen Everest to be taken seriously around here, I object. No fair to put that to Donini. It is a question he put forth to get a reaction, not to get slammed. Stay the hell on point, gents.
And lades.
A Basque shepherd sat in a field. He looked at the sky, saw sheep. He asked himself, "Who is their shepherd? Who is their guide?" He decided not to pursue the question as it began to storm.
I think morals belong in the knapsack; ethics, no.
Maybe that's the question, when people die. Or are they brother questions?
Either way, they are important, worthy of discussion.
Marlow, I wonder what kind of jokes Tamae would make about her age. They are likely to be Bwaa-halarious. From the ex-Aquarian Mouse.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 20, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
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Mouse
To not follow your guidance, but your reasoning and stay off topic.
There is a Tamae and there is a Tami. Concerning Tamae's jokes I'm as curious as you are. When it comes to Tami we already know the jokes would bwaa-halarious unless we expect them to be bwaa-halarious, in which case they could easily end up not being or being obnoxious in such a way that we had to use all our skills to stay clear of her pencils. In any case I'm quite sure the jokes would be put on their head which is Tami's proper perspective unless she has been standing for a long time on her head, in which case they could be straigthforeward.
These words must not be interpreted, but taken at face value. Let them flow in a zen-like way.
And remember to forget about the pencils...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 20, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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My mind is a blank eraser.
I would stand on my head to make Tami and all her friends laff.
I bought a Outside Mag May 2012 before I took the bus to YV Friday nite.
I didn't read the article I wanted to, but will as soon as I post.
The title, Giving Everest the Bird, sounds like more joy in Brahmaputra land.
Lurid leads on the cover.
Exclusive: Life & Death on Everest
inside the rescue disaster that could change the peak forever
Plus: Surviving 29,000 feet
who summits, who dies, and why
why do I read about climbing?
"Christ!"--Russ Walling :)
Buy the mag and find out who the authors are. I may just go for a walk to the top of the Tioga, "Merced's Highest." smoke break.
then I'll read the article.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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May 21, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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There is no "Everest". Pretentious Brits.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 21, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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I was surprised to wake up this morning and find silence about what is happening on
Everest. If someone who was on the mountain reports six deaths and there is no news
it must mean there is a great deal of confusion and also that all efforts on the mountain
are directed toward ongoing rescues.
It has happened in the past that people's deaths have been falsely reported in the media
only for the people involved to reappear quite alive, after their families had already gone
into shock and grief. Various websites were highly criticized for that and now perhaps they
err on the other side with no news.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 21, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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I was surprised to wake up this morning, period.
I'm very glad to say the Outside article has to do with B-3 helis and "what will this mean for climbing and trekking among the greatest mountains on earth." It's OT and the rescue in question was on Ama Dablam.
Never mind...
I am not entertaining much hope for the second article. In the a.m.
It's a good article on the subject of helis, mind you.
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StevenStrong
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 21, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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If I were going to climb everest I would want to do it with Donini and other friends. It is about the experience and not about the summit, and Donini would only make the experience that much better. I would send Coz a postcard though :)
steve
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 21, 2012 - 02:50am PT
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I just got an email from Sherpa friends in Kathmandu. The Sherpa Excursions team
from Rolwaling is safely back in base camp on the north side. They have no news
of fatalities on the southside. Let us hope this was just a false rumor.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2012 - 03:03am PT
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5:29 PM Monday May 21, 2012
A German doctor has died while descending from the Everest summit, and a Nepalese official says four other climbers may be missing on the world's highest mountain.
Ang Tshering of the Asian Trekking in Katmandu said 61-year-old Eberhard Schaaf died Saturday. Doctors believe he had high altitude cerebral edema.
Kamal Shrestha of Nepal's Mountaineering Department said a Nepal-born Canadian national identified as Shriya Shah is also missing on the mountain.
Shrestha said he has heard of a Korean, a Chinese and a Nepali Sherpa guide missing on their way back but did not have any more details.
May is the busiest month for climbing attempts on the 8,850-meter (29,035-foot) summit.
 AP
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10807374
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 21, 2012 - 06:47am PT
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The German doctor, a Nepalese born Canadian woman, and a Korean all
died descending on the south side. The Chinese climber died descending
the north side.
There is one unidentified body on the north side who may or may not
be the missing Nepalese Sherpa.
All the dead apparently made it to the summit and then died of
altitude sickness on the way down, although the Korean is reported
to have fallen because of altitude problems.
It appears that pud's friend made it down ok.
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Lightenin'
climber
Muleshoeville
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May 21, 2012 - 07:44am PT
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From the NY Times article posted above:
The first clear weather conditions of the spring climbing season were Friday and Saturday ...
An estimated 150 climbers reached the summit on either day, most of them on Saturday.
How can that be a worthwhile experience? I stand in line to check out groceries and maybe for a movie, not for a summit.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 21, 2012 - 10:38am PT
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these routes on the north face are too dangerous due to oxygen bottles being tossed off the guided north ridge!
not morally defensible.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 21, 2012 - 11:03am PT
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The ladder is on the north side on the second step.
It was put there by the Chinese expedition back in the 1960's.
One of the big questions regarding whether Mallory or Irvine made the top is
whether they could have climbed that section without the ladder.
Conrad Anker thinks not. Other people think they took a different route and
many note that there was more snow in those days and all routes were likely easier.
You know, if you guys would stop feasting on lobsters, you might even be able
to drag those sleds up the ladder!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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Jan, I have never understood this obsession climbers have about Mallory/Irvine. Getting to the top is optional, getting back down is obligatory. A climb means little if you don't get back to tell the tale.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 21, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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I agree with Ron.
I have always hoped that Mallory and Irvine made it given their primitive
equipment compared to all who came later.
I've read just about everything to do with them since I also love a good mystery.
Some amazing detective work has gone into trying to figure it out.
As for whether the summit matters if you don't make it back down, that's
another interesting ethical question alright. Personally, being alive has always
been more important to me but I know when Frank was killed that I was gratified
that he died on the descent, not the climb, because I knew that would be
important to him.
And always in the mountains, there is the issue of luck. I've always been an
admirer of Peter Boardman, both as a climber and a writer. But even he died
on Everest.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 21, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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Cliffhager, that article postinalmost sounds like it is a "must-read" for those of us who basically read High in the Thin Cold Air and forgot about Everest until 1996. It seems only to have become worse up there in the thin cold air.
[goddang it where's my inhaler?]
She claims one in ten as its tribute
They pay her so that others may too
Keep the line moving at all cost
Keep moving or you'll be one of the lost, folks
One in ten
Two in twenty
Buy your lottery ticket here, son
Chomolungma's waiting.
What number did you get?
Two hundred fifty?
You lucky devil...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 21, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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I worked with this climber that was on an everest expedition and had attempted a technical rock route back in the 80's...I asked him if he ever had the urge to go back to everest ..." Are you joking " was his reply..." Why would i want to do something stupid like that"...? He elaborated and said how miserable it was at altitude and feeling like you had the flu all the time..He related a story how he almost fell to his death crawling out of his tent to pee and forgetting to clip in....About this time there was a reality program about tourons getting dragged up everest...My everest climbing buddy watched it and couldn't believe what he was seeing , unexperienced , non-climbers getting short-leashed up the worlds tallest peak on what looked like the yukon trail....Base camp looked like a over-crowded refugee camp of altitude-sick eco-tourists....Uggh!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 21, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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Worse than that!
Explorersweb.com is now reporting that 300 made the summit
on Saturday if you count both sides of the mountain.
And there were over 750 in base camp waiting to climb before this began.
Only 450 more to go!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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A high altitude version of the cables on Half Dome.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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May 21, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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A disgrace to the mountain.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 21, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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Ron...Don't give up hope..... .Home depot is having a sale on 40 ft. aluminum ladders....RJ
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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Exactly the problem Tami- hyper motivated people without much, or any, climbing experience. It's all okay until the wind picks up, clouds begin to roll in and............
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 21, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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and......Your 40 ft. werner won't extend and you forget your enzyte at basecamp...
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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May 21, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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Comparing guides to Whores denigrates all whores everywhere. Lets stop with that kind of thing right now OK?
Jim said: "the Nepalese are some of the poorest people on Earth and whatever they due to keep life and limb together is okay with me. I am talking about the First World guides and guide services who have many other options available.
Never said anything about trying to ban guiding on Everest, that would be an exercise in futility."
Concur on the Nepalese part. BTW, if someone or anyone wants to fork over any amount, be it $60,000-$75,000 to climb a mountain, have at it.
Why should I care?
...ANYONE?
......Filed under "things white people argue over"....LOL
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 21, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Well, I guess part of the objection to the idea that anyone with 50-100K can go is that they potentially put other folks in danger. Guides/sherpas/teammates/rescuers.
And that introducing that much money into the equation biases decision-making for those people and their paid guides.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 21, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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They pay lots for "lots" in the highest acreage on the planet.
Location, location, location.
Too bad they couldn't have spent more time alive than dead enjoying the views from their boutique biers.
They are called guides, but why even pay 'em if you won't follow their guidance, unless of course you are planning on shorting your way to the top.
Ron with it, Ron: A prize-winning rant is always great to hear.
Unless you're the target. Well-said, Ron.
Ron top of the world, look out below!
"Rock!"
"Ice!"
"Epithet!"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 21, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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explorersweb.com says:
The National Geographic/North Face team—Conrad, Kris, Sam, Emily, Hilaree, and Mark—
has just set out on a full ascent of the mountain. They anticipate a summit
window around May 25.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 21, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Ron...was that in lappland...? RJ
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 21, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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"......Filed under "things white people argue over"
Isn't that ST's raison d'etre?
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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May 21, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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That's just absurdly busy.
The first time I climbed Mt. Hood it was a busy day and I doubt there were more than 30 or 40 people at the summit.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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Is the North Face Team going to have a cow catcher out front when they encounter the hordes?
edit: Thanks Dingus, I'm familiar with the book.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 21, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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It must be hard to find clean snow to melt for water. Yuk.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 21, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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And a guy died during a lap dance at a strip club.
lap dances are immorally defensible
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 21, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
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still cant comprehend what that possibly looked like. Unfortunately we all can but are too horrified by the mental image to try to describe it.
I'll have a go at it anyway.
I see about 50 parkas with O2 masks huddled at the foot of the Hillary Step awaiting their arse-freezing turn as the sun dips towards Pumori and ChoOyu, with 50 more descending the Step. Crampons in faces, on fingers and slicing ropes.
Guides yelling at other teams' clients to Bugger Off. Sherpas doing their da**dest to keep the clients alive.
50 on the top, all wrestling to get a picture that doesn't include the other 49. Snarl of O2 hoses, gobs of ZnO2 sunshield. People half crawling back across the South Col after dark searching for their tent among the sea of flapping nylon.
A dozen or so struggling back down the E. Ridge desperately trying not to step over the edge.
Guides trying to count their chickens to see if they're all accounted for. Radios squacking and bleating.
Wait till they try to descend from the Col tomorrow, exhausted and frostnipped or worse, with 50 more struggling up.
in three syllables: Cl*stF*
or Apocalypse.
Brueghel or Dali
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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Question- with the apparent current mob scene on Everest, why would any self respecting climber even want to be there? Sure, if you're a peak bagger wanting the glory or if it's your job you'll put up with the mayhem.
For me Everest (by one of the trade routes) is the polar opposite of why I love alpine climbing. I climb mountains for the following reasons, among others:
technical difficulty that isn't prepackaged and sanitized
exploring new terrain
problem solving- route finding and selection, dealing with evolving situations/conditions
communing with the natural world in a wilderness environment
practicing self dependence in a potentially dangerous environment
sharing the adventure with (one or two) equally committed partner/s
The current situation on Everest is as far removed from these reasons as any form of "climbing" could possibly be.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 21, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Is guideing any kind of large wilderness group moraly defensible?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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May 21, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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My turn to chime in.
There is nothing wrong with guiding.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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May 21, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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The way to restore Mount Everest is to (1) remove all the fixed gear; (2) require all groups to pack out their O2 bottles and other debris; and (3) make foreign guiding illegal. I'll bet most of the people in Everest base camp today don't own their own gear.
Lets say there are 700 people now, round it off and say 200 parties per year. At $10,000 per permit, it's only $2 million dollars. Someone was claiming the govt of Nepal doesnt care if people die on Everest because they're getting rich off permit fees. It doesnt compute. Somebody look up the GDP of Nepal, I have no idea but the overall tourism business is infinitely larger.
So I don't really see any obstacles, except that the whole business is really up to the Nepalis to decide. Who's going to be opposed to cleaning up all this mess? Aside from a handful of guides and the people who already paid deposits for next year.
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murf02
climber
NYC
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May 21, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Guiding any mountain responsible can be morally defensible. Is giving the green light to clients and climbing sherpas in crazy bottleneck conditions at over 28,700' responsible?
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MisterE
Social climber
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May 21, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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Jim, when I think of things that are not morally defensible, guiding Everest is not anywhere near the top of the list.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
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Soooo wrong....hardly, fits right in with the current scene.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 21, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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Does not look like she cranks hard. Isa is 100 times hotter;)
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Mister_Roborto
Trad climber
Queensland
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May 21, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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The speed machine hanging out with strippers in BC - that dude sure has courage. If Mrs. Steck kicks him out, I've space in my van parked in Argentiere.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 21, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Ron, our fluffer "big gal" is dead. Maybe we can hire this 'stripper' as part time replacement?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 21, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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south col route
Guide - "okay sheeple tighten it up, as#@&%e to belly button, we got 300 more we gotta get onto this rope".
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 21, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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No. this is useful.
In the near future we will be able to determine how silicone degrades at altitude.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 21, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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So in a way, the current Everest scene is a living laboratory for testing how market values stand up to nature. What is rational and what is practical do not always merge on a cute chart. Perhaps this should stand for the lesson of the week by Professor Donini. Nature wins.
The moral dimensions may be personal but the market has clearly failed...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 21, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
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It seems likely that was has recently happened on Chomolungma will not make an iota of difference to the number who buy their way onto the mountain next year. It may even stimulate the market, in some perverse way.
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nature
climber
CO
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May 21, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Nature wins
feels like a hollow victory....
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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May 21, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
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Build a mountain, and THEY will come.
TY
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 21, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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It may even stimulate the market, in some perverse way.
Could we hedge on it?
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murf02
climber
NYC
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May 22, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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Shar-Klorfine's website:
http://myeverestexpedition.com/sponsors.php
She registered for basic climbing gear(carabiner is a key chain) as you would a baby shower or wedding.
Very disturbing, the whole mess.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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May 22, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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t seems likely that was has recently happened on Chomolungma will not make an iota of difference to the number who buy their way onto the mountain next year.
And that is exactly the problem as I see it. Someone quite a ways upthread made a comparison between a guide with inexperienced clients and a party in which one or more members were partnered with others that were inexperienced or at least had less experience, asking what the difference was, implying (unless my reading comprehension skills are going to shit) that there wasn't much.
I'm gong to make a distinction between high altitude guiding and others, and yes, I understand that there's a continuing degree of grey between the two. In high altitude mountaineering the margin for error, be it human or the consequences of weather, cerebral or pulmonary edema, or whatever else can and will go wrong on a big mountain, are slim. Much less than guiding a client on a multi pitch one day climb or a big wall. If things go wrong in the former chances for survival, for the client as well as the guide, are much less than the latter. And how much vetting of a client's climbing skills takes place on these types of climbs, Everest or otherwise?
The financial incentive of a guided ascent on a big mountain only makes the situation that much more volatile. I doubt that there are any financial guarantees that a guided client will summit, ie. no refunds, sorry. But if a guiding company doesn't perform well in getting clients to the summit, even if it's due to the mountain being unsafe at the time, will they see as many clients the next year? There is a financial imperative to succeed, to summit, and I can easily see how that can translate to poor decisions in regard to overall safety.
As far as unguided climbs where there are more and less experienced climbers the big difference is that the more experienced climbers aren't getting paid. You don't take someone with little experience up a big mountain because it's your ass on the line and if the sh#t hits the fan you hope that your partner or team has the necessary rudimentary skills to get you out.
I'm sure that many of us have taken new climbers on their first outing. I'm also sure that most of us make sure that their first outing is on easy terrain (for us) and not something more difficult where the margin for error is much less.
My .02 but probably more like .50 because I'm wordy like that.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 22, 2012 - 01:06am PT
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Well, someone I know seems to have gotten to the top via the north ridge in the last few days. It says so on the website of Canada's Liberal Leader, Bob Rae, which in turns quotes a twitter feed: "My friend Sam Wyatt just made it to the peak of Mt Everest ! Amazing achievement, I'm so proud of him..." http://openparliament.ca/politicians/bob-rae/
Sam had climbed Cho Oyu, Denali, and other such things, plus had gotten quite close on Chomolungma in 2009. As for how good friends he and Bob are...
Edit: Apparently the news is true, as the FaceBook page says "Both Steve and Sam are safe and both made successful summit bids on Friday! They are currently leaving ABC and heading to the safety of base camp before heading home. Donate today!" (They did it in part as a fundraiser for Take a Hike Foundation.) http://www.facebook.com/TakeaHikeFoundation
Edit 2: Oops! Yes, Rae is leader of the Liberals, who for the last year have been neither the government nor the official opposition, for the first time since 1867.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 22, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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The high cost of climbing the big peaks basically demands a commercial operation of some type. In the past sponsored expeditions were the norm; currently guided expeditions are. In past years climbers not in favor of sponsored climbing groused about the violation of climbing purity by sponsored expeditions, now climbers complain about guided climbing and the evils of for-profit climbing on the high peaks.
Since Westerners have been obsessed with the big peaks, mountains of money have tainted the venture.
Lots of respect for small self financed expeditions to the big peaks.
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Enty
Trad climber
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May 22, 2012 - 03:51am PT
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but if you are taking 14 hours to go from EBC to Camp II (this takes the average person 4-6 hours) maybe you should realize that on summit day you are probably going to die.
The guides who let these clients carry on should go to jail.
E
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 22, 2012 - 04:04am PT
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Here's an eyewitness account in case you didn't see it.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1831996/Climber-describes-harrowing-scene-on-Everest
And the final count seems to be four killed. The missing Sherpa made it back to base camp.
One innovation which I found interesting is that Alpine Ascents brings their
people to the South Col and keeps them there for 24 hours on oxygen instead
of bringing them from Camp 3, letting them rest 3-4 hours and then head for
the summit and back down to Camp 2 if possible.
They maintain that they have never had a client with altitude sickness and have
a higher success rate because their clients have 24 hours to rest and
regroup before the final push. The only drawback is that they cost more
because they have to have extra supplies, especially oxygen.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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May 22, 2012 - 06:36am PT
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Dont forget the spacesuits. From one of the associated press articles about the Everest scene: "Ghimire said that eventually, the government plans to set up a seasonal office at the base camp equipped with doctors, weather experts and security personnel."
I've never been to Everest Base Camp but it makes me think of the Ahwanee Hotel and what Yosemite might be like if you had to hike in to get there.
The more infrastructure they build, the more overcrowding of tourists.
I have a feeling we havent seen the end of this disaster yet. The way the news media works, the longer a story plays, the bigger it gets. So if we have another week of people dying one by one on Everest, there is a ready made audience, that should make the Nepali govt feel pressured to do something. But building more infrastructure is exactly the wrong response.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 22, 2012 - 07:14am PT
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Tim - where did you get that info? Can you please provide that link? She was from my home town.
So not only has she left her kids without a mom, she took a hundred grand of net worth out of her estate.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 22, 2012 - 07:57am PT
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Well don't expect the Nepalese government to get involved. They have
more than enough of their own problems right now trying to write a
new Constitution by May 27 which is bound to set off more strikes and
demonstrations and maybe renewed guerilla warfare.
At issue is how Nepal's new system of federalism is to work. The
current draft calls for states running from the Himalayas to the border
and encompassing multiple ethnic groups and ecological zones.
However, the hill tribes who have been badly oppressed for over two
centuries bythe high caste Hindus allied with the former king and
aristocracy, want autonomous homelands based on languages and
ethnicity of which Nepal has a mere 35. They have now shut
Kathmandu down for three days and promise to keep it going
indefinitely or at least until the deadline on the 27th.
Mountaineers could return to riots in the streets or martial law. Since
the prime minister is a Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) member, this
would not make the western embassies happy but China would profit.
Anyway, forget about the government policing the Everst business
anytime soon.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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May 22, 2012 - 08:53am PT
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Body recovery fee insurance, given back if you survive?
Make it high (no pun intended).
Guide companies responsible for that recovery.
"We'll try to get you to the top, but guarantee we'll bring you down."
Just a thought.
That tilted image contains the story doesn't it.
Sad.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 22, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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My friend Sam got to the top from the north early on Saturday morning, and is now in Nepal, on his way home. He was with a small outfitter. One of his teammates apparently died at the bottom of the second step on the descent, but I don't know anything more yet.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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May 22, 2012 - 10:44am PT
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Question- with the apparent current mob scene on Everest, why would any self respecting climber even want to be there?
Or to re-phrase, why would anyone who loves the mountains and loves climbing, want to be there?
How could it possibly be less fantastic to get to the top of 100 other peaks of a little less height anywhere else in the Himalaya - except that you would not then be able to thump your chest to yourself and others about "the highest spot in the world".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2012 - 10:45am PT
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I wonder how it feels for them to spend so much money and then have to stand in line?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 22, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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Well, Jim, maybe its good that their oxygen starved brains can't process that...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 22, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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I don't know much at all about hiking/walking, especially in the snow and all that mountain stuff... but....
Is that picture real? I mean are there that many people doing a conga line to the summit every day during the push season? If so, I'm really shocked and now wonder why there aren't many deaths every day on that mountain. Save for the HD cables, I've never seen anything like it. Wow....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 22, 2012 - 10:52am PT
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I'm not sure about my position, Re: guiding on Everest, but this thread certainly removes any doubts about my lack of desire to climb same. What a clusterfucque!
I've pretty much ignored the high altitude climbs for the past 20 years; this is reason enough to have done so... Even the Colorado 14ers have degenerated into mob scenes. Example: I climbed Mount Princeton in 2001 with my (then) wife and a business colleague, to find that 50 people had already summited that day! On the other hand we climbed Missouri Mountain 2 days later, to find ourselves the only ones on the summit. Difference? Access and popularity.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 22, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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those are just the workers preparing the mountain for the clientel.
oxygen, tents, pads,cookers,laptops,sleeping bags all that stuff has
to be carried up, set up, and hurry to get ready for the guests a fine cheese fondue on the south col.
namaste
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 22, 2012 - 11:45am PT
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What would Hermann Buhl think of that scene?
Bet he would quit climbing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 22, 2012 - 11:53am PT
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Of course with that many people lined up a single avalanche could cause the kind of massive disaster Tami talked about.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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May 22, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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Thanks to Donini for consistently providing quality topics. Interesting, provocative and appreciated.
Early on in the thread it was noted that Everest is notable to the public because of the number (tallest peak). Not unlike Whitney in the continental US in some ways.
Well, sure enough, last week the battery in my car was going out. So I got a new one installed. When I was paying, the guy saw the picture of the mountaineer on my credit card.
Question 1: "Do you mountain climb?"
Me: "Yes, I do"
Question 2: "Have you climbed Mt. Everest?"
:-)
I don't blame or fault the guy. What else could he be expected to know and he was just being friendly.
I found it amusing in light of having just read this thread when it happened.
Eric
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 22, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
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Ummmm....looks familiar....prospectors on Chilkoot Trail during Alaska Gold Rush. The ones getting wealthy were those that provided supplies and services at the base.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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May 22, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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probably the highest number of affluent people waiting in line since the boarding of the lifeboats on the Titanic...
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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May 22, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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I wonder how long it takes to get 150 semi oxygen starved, semi experienced climbers up and then down the Hillary Step?
There is a route at Smith called Bunny Face. It's a 5.6 and about 60 feet long. I'll bet it would take the better part of a whole day to get 150 of that level "climber" up and down it.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 22, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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Do they jug up the Hillary step? That must be a cluster f*%k!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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May 22, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
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Have you seen that vid where Hillary's son is rapping the Step and someone below clamps his jugs onto a rope and starts up, pinning the son to the wall? Hillary starts yelling at the guy but the guy doesn't speak english! The vid shows a long line of people waiting to go up and a long line waiting to go down.
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jstan
climber
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May 22, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
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"Well you have to know these things, if you are a King."
My favourite color is
yellow.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 22, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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probably the highest number of affluent people waiting in line since the boarding of the lifeboats on the Titanic...
Spot on.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 22, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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prospectors on Chilkoot Trail during Alaska Gold Rush
A somewhat apt comparison, although the prospectors could at least say they were hoping for material gain. Also, the gold rush was in Klondike, near Dawson in the Yukon - not Alaska. That was later. The 1898 prospectors briefly passed through Alaska, from Skagway to White Pass, but that was all.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 22, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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Please just shoot me if I ever complain about a pretty woman posing in revealing clothing in a climbing setting.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 22, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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It is a truly good time to be on the planet.
Here are TC and AH in YV doing their thing on their own and blowing all our minds. Hardly any media involvement (we are the media, right here, in this case), too.
On the other side of the globe is the biggest clusterf*#k I have ever heard of in mountaineering. And the whole world knows through countless sources of information.
God has Her fun.
Thanks for the theater, Old Gal.
I just want to toss this in, from an article online--
((AP) Well-known exp. organizer Brice cited the mtn's "precarious condition" in his decision in early May to cancel this year's climb for more than 60 clients.
What was he thinking?--Dr. Phil and myself
I'm impressed he is so concerned over the "condition" of Miss Chomo.
Edge, chicks ain't worth it. Ask anyone who knew Baldwin.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 22, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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^^Amen bro! Just Like a Prayer, I'll take you there.
Nuff to put Mr. Honnold back in the closet.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 22, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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In a world where we have got "Heart attack restaurant" - Should "Die on Everest expedition" be allowed? I think not. From the mountain's perspective what's happening must either be irrelevant or tragic, from a human perspective either tragic or tragicomic. And I think the gods, if there are any, must be laughing at the whole spectacle.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 22, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
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what is the spiritual significance of Everest / chomolungma in nepal?
There are five famous sister goddesses who predate Buddhism in Tibet of which Miyolangsangma who lives on Everest is one. She is a younger sister of the most important one, named Tseringma who lives on the mountain most westerners call Gauri Shankar. Tseringma is pure white and rides on a snow lion in the center of the mandala while Miyolangsangma's subsidiary status puts her in the upper left hand hand corner, yellow in color and riding on a tiger.
Tseringma is the godess of long life and the protector spirit who is always prayed to by Rolwaling people before they climb. Miyolangsangma is the bringer and protector of wealth for the Khumbu people and has more than done her part for them. Because the Khumbu Sherpas are the most wealthy of the Sherpas, it is believed that Miyolangsangma is not displeased with the role of the Sherpas in mountaineering.
Westerners who have sex on her mountain do displease her and opinion is divided about the bodies. She and her sisters demanded human sacrifice before being subdued by Guru Rinpoche, the yogi who brought Buddhism to Tibet in the 8th century. Sometimes I think she has reverted.
All five were further instructed in Buddhism by the 12th century yogi Milarepa who is shown at the top of the mandala. He was famous for tumo, the ability to raise one's body heat during meditation and only wore cotton clothes through the Himalayan winters. He is also green in color from eating so many wild nettles while living in Tibet just north of Gauri Shankar
The name Chomo Lungma translates literally from Tibetan as "god female country mother" meaning protective goddess of the Khumbu countryside, not the whole world as westerners have portrayed in their obsession with its importance as the world's highest.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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May 22, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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Guiding Everest is morally defensible if you don't guarentee a summit, are willing to turn people around, have exceptional guides, properly screen your clients, and have the appropriate support. Perhaps not everyone meets that criteria.
And why is a pretty woman the encapsulation of what is wrong with guiding Everest? Isn't the picture of a man getting help to tie in closer to the mean demographic?
There are plenty of objectives in the world. Why line-up for Bunny Face if you want a solitude alpine experience? Don't go to Everst if you want a peak to yourself.
People hire guides to go where they want to go. Evidently they want to go to Everest. I believe in freedom and personal responsibility. The world has too many rules, and there is way too much effort going into guarenteeing people protection from their own mistakes.
Funny is many here criticizing guiding on Everest will defend to the death their right to climb or solo. It looks just as inane to the rest of the population who continue to try to protect us from our "suicidal" tendencies.
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Lightenin'
climber
Muleshoeville
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May 22, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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There are five famous sister goddesses who predate Buddhism in Tibet of which Miyolangsangma who lives on Everest is one ...
Thanks, Jan. I appreciate your post.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 22, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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And why is a pretty woman the encapsulation of what is wrong with guiding Everest?
There is nothing wrong with pretty women on Everest...but on Everest or the local cemetery, doing a cheesecake photo in front of a memorial is, imo, deeply disturbing.
Susan
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jstan
climber
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May 22, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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I heard Goran Kropp's lecture about his bicycle ride to Everest. In it he provided a picture of the scene in base camp.
He told of one fellow with a para sail who, to occupy himself, took his gf up to the top of a nearby height. As he was preparing to cast off his friend complained that she could not get down alone. He quickly came up with an answer. He tied her to himself with a 50 foot line, told her to stand at the edge of the precipice - and then jumped off. That part went relatively well, from his standpoint, but what came at the end of the flight he had not considered beforehand.
At the landing he was still fifty feet up and making rapid horizontal progress but she was being dragged like a sack of meal through all the boulders. Responding to her horrible screams the camp's denizens tried as best they could to put an end to the show. Goren indicated that relationship suffered some difficulty later on.
Had I been there, I would have told the youngster this might happen.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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May 22, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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you are pretty arrogant mr. donini,
in suggesting that you have
a good handle on the moral code.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 22, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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im sure you can find solitude on everest, go in the summer.
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The Magnet
climber
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May 22, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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At the landing he was still fifty feet up and making rapid horizontal progress but she was being dragged like a sack of meal through all the boulders. Responding to her horrible screams the camp's denizens tried as best they could to put an end to the show. Goren indicated that relationship suffered some difficulty later on.
Had I been there, I would have told the youngster this might happen.
John, exactly what do you think that would have accomplished? I mean, it would feel good, but you can't have any illusion that he would have listened to you. After all, he had just paid many tens of thousands to get that crap to the base, and he thought he was a big ass climber.
People who think they are climbers never listen to discouraging words.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 22, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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From the Outside article, it sounds like the weather was nothing unusual, at most a bit windier than normal in the afternoon. Nothing like 1996. Pretty sad.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 22, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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this thread bears an uncanny resemblance to the mystique of EEEvrest...
just a creepy feeling here that more tragedy will just add to the mystique.
It's an odd word to use, because there is no mystery about Everest; there shouldn't be, at least with this many going up daily, and so much media, any mystery left about the big pile of doo.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 22, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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Climb up, para glide down, hang girlfriend - bad trifecta.
Is there a postcard of the hanging?
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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May 22, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Is there a postcard of the hanging?
They're selling postcards of the hanging
They're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors
The circus is in town
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 22, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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Early camp 4 dwellers. Is it defensible that some crackers (so called Mariposa Battalion) renamed their rock, El Capitan, and that people pissed all over it for so many years?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 22, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
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^ No
But what is done is long done bud. It can't be fixed very well.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 22, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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Don't post my photos of Jona without my permission.
And maybe man-up and offer Jona an apology for your misogynistic blather.
She is a performance artist working a project, not a bimbo hooker.
She is very respected by some of the biggest names in alpinism today.
And you are still a limp dick butt knuckle.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 22, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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The 1898 prospectors briefly passed through Alaska, from Skagway to White Pass, but that was all.
Thank you MH for the correction...I was actually up that way this past summer, shame on me, I should have been more asute on the borders!
Hanging my head in shame,
Susan
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 22, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
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Except that it was Chilkoot Pass... My bad. Although White Pass isn't far away.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 22, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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Philo - what was misogynistic about any post on here. All posts about Jona were commenting on what she admits she does, such as sexy poses to get attention.
http://www.via-ferrata.de/img-in-high-heels-auf-den-mount-everest-881.htm
If she does not want to get treated like a piece of meat she should quit acting like a piece of meat. She is an attention monger, that is fine, but you do not need to be a hero to run to her defense for some perceived insult.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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May 22, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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It is amazingly disrespectful to the people of Nepal and Tibet to show so much skin in such a provocative style. It is not at all condoned or accepted , in fact it is seen as shameful, embarrassing, and far below the cultural ethic. Just some more of the worst the west brings to these areas.
So the woman's posing in the skimp is an embarrasment to us all in that context.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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May 22, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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"...in fact it is seen as shameful, embarrassing, and far below the cultural ethic. Just some more of the worst the west brings to these areas."
And truth be told that kind of shite happens all over this planet.
I too wish (so many) Western folks would have a bit more respect for local culture/tradition...butt no, we're such a "it's all about me" culture.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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May 22, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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In the current climate, is it even morally defensible to climb Everest???
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viejoalpinisto
Mountain climber
Pahrump, NV
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May 22, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Morals...hmmm wrong list. All you will get is opinions on ethics here. You will see the word misused frequently though.
If you think there is a huge difference between the personalities that hike in the Death Zone with poor preparation and the guy that shows up at the bar at 6AM to start his day via slow death, you have not met enough of either. Self delusional, big plans, little preparation (outside of buying a drink or hiring a guide)..one type is exalted the other derided but that is a cultural evaluation of different manifestations of a similar disease. Delusional self destruction is a characteristic that many people share. How they go about it....Some are sure they are saving themselves, proving themselves, defining themselves...redefining, lifting, self exalting, buying a piece of heaven...whatever. The guide, the bartender, the heroin dealer...easing their pain, keeping them safe, facilitating destruction...maybe all three and a lot more.....
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john hansen
climber
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May 22, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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It is a little surprising that no one breaks away from the fixed ropes. I guess because they are all either clients or guides.
I am sure many of the guides could solo that terrain with out the ropes.
It would be refreshing to see a solo person climb past all those people un roped..
It seems if one person fell and cascaded into a few more the ropes could not possibly hold that many people.
I mean didn't Robbins walk down out side the cables once?
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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It is amazingly disrespectful to the people of Nepal and Tibet to show so much skin in such a provocative style. It is not at all condoned or accepted , in fact it is seen as shameful, embarrassing, and far below the cultural ethic. Just some more of the worst the west brings to these areas.
So the woman's posing in the skimp is an embarrasment to us all in that context.
I never have been to Nepal. My friend Robbie went in 1969 and he sent me a postcard, which I still have, saying the people of Nepal were the most spiritual he'd encounterd. Why would someone who was actually there not recognize this?
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 02:18am PT
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First, Jona is wearing lucite stripper heels.
LUCITE....STRIPPER HEELS!
Like it or not, that's what they are. Who would even pack those to bring to base camp? Sorry Philo, not being a misogynist, but she looks like she took a stripper outfit to the Base Camp for provocative shots. In a place where so many have died, that's just BAD TASTE.
If she really is such a badass climber, I would much rather have many other things in my pack for Base Camp for that place to be taken seriously than LUCITE HEELS! Geesz. It sends the wrong message. If she's a badass climber, let her show it in ways that aren't so....cheap.
If she wanted to look that way in the mountains for provocative shoots, there's so many places in the mountains she could do so where it wouldn't be so offensive. I'm not offended that she looks that way but where she chose to do it. People were dying up there. And have died for years.
Don't believe me that lucite stripper heels are the cheapest, ugliest worst things you can wear to represent yourself? Look up Shauna Sands on Google. Lucite heels are a well known "laugh at that sad whore" look. Or just look up "lucite heels", same thing.
It has NO place in the Himalayas.
Climbing shoes and a good route are more than sexy enough if she's as good as you say.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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Fairly Judgmental regarding someone you don't know.
The sacredness of Everest was trampled to death long ago by unbridled commercialism and artifice.
She is a single mom and an artist working on a multi year project.
And she is working a photo shoot for National Geographic.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 23, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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All one needs to do is compare Bullwinkle's photo art to pics of Jona to know the difference. Really think Dean would pose nudes in front of sacred memorials? It's like comparing film to digital.
No envy here, I fully admit she can likely climb and hike my arse off. And for sure, she's got me mastered in the lucite heels. Perhaps they double as some sort of ice axe thingies.
Susan
Edit: not judging "her"....but I can disagree with her actions. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all that.
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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May 23, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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Just my 2 cents. Statistically, guided climbers (and those part of the team, including Sherpa and other guides) represent a slightly smaller percentage of the deaths on Everest.
Putting that aside, I do not think guiding can ever be deemed "not morally defensible." Guides have the right to choose how they want to earn their living. Clients have a right to hire guides if they want - a practice that dates back centuries (even Brad Washburn used guides in his youth). Climbing big mountains is a dangerous game. Guides and clients should both understand that. If they choose to take such a risk, it is their choice to do so. This is not more "not morally defensible" than elite climbers trying extreme routes throughout the world - risking leaving behind a spouse, a child, a family, etc. (usually without insurance or other economic provision).
Now putting all this aside, Everest is becoming a more and more dangerous place for everyone. We call it the death zone for a reason - because the body starts to die in it. Being stuck waiting in line in the death zone is insane. Waiting in line for a few minutes on the summit of Everest is insane. Expecting others (particularly others who are not part of your "team") to risk their lives to save you if you are unable to do so yourself is insane. I have no doubt in my mind that there are people on Everest who do not belong there, and are only there because they can afford to spend the money (and only live due to the luck of weather). However, how is this different than Dudley Wolfe (sp?) on K2? This is simply a part of the history of mountaineering.
While I understand why people want to climb Mt. Everest (guided, guide or independent), I also do not understand why anyone would spend a fortune to be part of such crowds. The physical challenge is still there, and perhaps even greater due to the crowds, but there is no adventure and the risks are increasing tremendously. Hopefully this trend will diminish, but I doubt it.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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So Jona is being sacrilegious but it is OK to stand in the same locations getting your pic taken while holding a banner of your corporate sponsors? Starbucks, Microsoft et-al are okie dokie but an art project isn't? HMMMMM. Uhm, Why?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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May 23, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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This time lapse of the hordes on summit day is pretty mind-boggling.
Holy schit! Was that really a black line of ants all jammed up like that?
I didn't imagine it being that congested.
F*#k that schit. So speaketh survival.................
Thats the shyt thats making a MOCKERY of it all.And the very reason so many fools are dying up there now...
The mockery was there long before that woman got dressed down on the "sacred" mountain Ron.
It became un-sacred the minute guides started taking high paying n00bs up there.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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F*#k that schit. So speaketh survival.................
So agreeth philo.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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Ueli looks afraid of her in that photo. Or at least weary of her.
Reinhold doesn't even seem to realize someone is next to him when someone said "smile" when taking the pic.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Lets see, Uli had just got down from an NO O2 ascent of Everest. Give the guy a break.
And trust me Reinhold was very aware of who was there with him.
Haters gotta hate.
I am somewhat stunned that unqualified clients are dying up there for no good reason but some folks are more incensed by lucite heels.
Oh well. She is really a very nice person.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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No hate. Just curiosity.
I wonder how many lap dances it takes to get up Everest.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 23, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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She may be a nice person but near nudity anywhere in Nepal is a cultural
abomination. As for corporate sponsers on banners, it's actually not that far
from the prayer flags of local tradition. Some people are sponsered by Buddhas
and Boddhisattvas and mountain goddesses and others by Microsoft and Starbucks.
Both the diva and the banners display our values, but only the barely dressed
woman offends the locals.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Why do you ask Ron are you contemplating a career change prior to going to Everest. :) LOL
Jan, believe me I understand and respect what you are saying. But it seems too easy to slag on unknown folks.
By the way she has a great many Sherpa friends who like and care about her.
These pics are from base camp a few years ago. Once actually on a mountain she stows the leather teddies and lucite heels and is very respectful.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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Philo, "Haters gonna hate" isn't an excuse. She looks like a Russian whore. Not a serious climber.
Guarantee if I asked Ueli about this woman he'd be "Oh, another fan." but even more polite cause he's Swiss.
I want to see the person you talk so highly of but she's not making it easy. It's like OR with photo bombs.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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No high altitude ambitions, philo.
I look at that conga line with disbelief.
But I figure she had to work pretty hard. Maybe a better training program than Mr. 7 miler.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 23, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Wild guess, but I bet every time there is a hot day in base camp there are all sorts of shirtless men, euro banana hammocks and other culturally offensive nekedness.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Folks, I know I used the word "morally" in the thread title but this particular thread drift is not what I had in mind.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 23, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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You can be sure Philo, that I will ask the Sherpas what they think about her
the next time I interview in Nepal. Whatever their opinions, it should definitely
be an interesting topic! I'll bet their wives have heard of her too!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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Flouride, Susan and Jan, don't get me wrong, I am not knocking any of you or your concerns about the apparent impropriety. I like and respect you all. I am just bummed how harsh of a slagging Jona is getting. She really doesn't deserve it. No one will die because of her lucite heels. No one will be stranded or abandoned because of her photo shoots.To my mind the real evil is unscrupulous guide services who rake in 60+ grand from unqualified clients who later endanger many others by their incompetence. I could easily see being outraged and offended if she posed like that on the summit but that ain't gonna happen. Jona befriended me when I really needed a friend. It is hard to see her shat upon for her art project. If Nat Geo is on board she must be doing something right.
Tami, I do understand. By the way your Cartoon in the last ALPINIST is one of the best ever. Much respect lady you rock!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Jim, an estimated 200 climbers are going for the summit this weekend with a good weather window. That's just insane.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
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Pretty soon there will be 2 lanes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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Indeed it is, I'm leaving for the Black Canyon in a few hours. Great climbing, if a little knarly, which is why crowds won't be a problem
Are those air traffic control guys Reagan fired still looking for work?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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Wild guess, but I bet every time there is a hot day in base camp there are all sorts of shirtless men, euro banana hammocks and other culturally offensive nekedness.
Exactly is there not a ethical dilemma here?
And Jan i would so love to hear the opinions of the Sherpas.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
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Donini, I guess you never had Jimmy N tossing cherry bombs down while you were in there,..
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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If Nat Geo is on board she must be doing something right."
So does "Survivor" and any other reality shows. I have some great ideas I want to pitch but it doesn't mean they're right.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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No...and he better not start now. Ron...send me some bear sausage.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
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Comparing Nat-Geo to a reality tv show is inappropriate.
So Euros prancing around BC in the banana hammocks is OK but a scantily clad American woman isn't?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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May 23, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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Folks, I know I used the word "morally" in the thread title but this particular thread drift is not what I had in mind.
Jim, thread drift is what supertopo was built on. Just be glad you've got a climbing topic hovering near the top for 350+ posts!!
Not only that, but the woman in question is mostly on topic.
Phil, I agree that she may be a fine person and all but the heels on Everest does look cheap to me too.
By the way, I didn't get anywhere near any of your long shyte at Red Rock.......
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 23, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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She is a performance artist working a project, not a bimbo hooker.
That was the funniest comment posted here so far! LMFAO!!!!!!
Good one philo. Hope this will score you a hug next time you are getting a lap dance in Vegas! ;)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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Survival i agree. As...uhm... stimulating as her pics may be I don't agree with her choice of photo shoot location. I am also not a fan of lucite heeled hooker shoes and tramp wear. But I didn't decide for her how to proceed. The Rivers of Ribbons project is an on going endeavor.
Bruce what did you climb in RR?
My long routes there are all shyte and death routes. Don't go there. :)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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What a bunch of judgmental fuks.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 23, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Philo, Sherpas make jokes about everything, especially sex.
so I'm sure they'll have some good ones.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
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What a bunch of judgmental fuks.
Who are you calling judgmental?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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Not you of course.
Consider this.
Mia Hamm can rip off her jersy in celebration during the internationally televised Olympics and no one called her a hooker, bimbo, strumpet or stripper. Hundreds of millions of people watched that spectacle on live TV and I can guarantee that more people all over the world were offended by that.
And yes there is also an element of the sacred involving the Olympics.
She has on more spikes and less clothing than Jona.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 23, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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Hey John Beck! Don't post my photos of Jona without my permission.
Actually posting copyrighted photos on this forum for the the non-commercial purpose of criticism and opinion is allowed under the Fair Use doctrine, with of without attribution.
The point of the posting was accomplished, I removed the picture so as to keep everyone happy, except maybe future readers of this thread.
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
http://lizzshepherd.suite101.com/the-fair-use-doctrine-a56255
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 23, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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Classic! I read the first post to this thread, and the last three or four. Total disconnetct. Classic thread drift. Where's LEB when you need her!
Agree with Donini. It is not morally defensibe to accept money to load a six-chamber revolver with one bullet and hand the f*#ker to a "client." They are too f*#king dumb to know what they're getting into, and that makes it morally indefensile. Just sayin'.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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bvb, I agree I didn't want it to drift like this so here it goes.....
These problems on Everest could stop by several means:
1. ban O2 bottles. either you get up or you can't on your own. Ueli Steck just did it without O2 cause he's a professional MTN athlete who belongs up there (and trains HARD). People who can't hack it and need canister after canister to survive.....it's not a place meant for them.
2. the only guide services are locals Nepal/Tibet). But Nepal relies upon Western Guide Services for several millions of dollars each year.
3. Screen every team member as if they were doing K2. Everest is treated as a bunny slope for the rich these days.
4. If you can't identify ice axes, put on crampons correctly or other basic mountain skills you should be turned back
4. No helicopter trips up just to pick up people who summitted and wanted back down cause they were lazy. Helo's only for the injured.
5. the biggest: END FIXED LINES!!!!!!!!!! Let those who want to climb the mountain get up by skill and rope intelligence.
Feel free to add, these aren just mid morning ideas in LA
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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Are those high heels the new version of mono point crampons developed by philo in Ouray?
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 23, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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She has on more spikes and less clothing than Jona.
Actually they are cleats. Golfers use spikes.
Susan
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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May 23, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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Flouride I came to the exact same conclusion. If the climbing community doesn't take the lead in policing this, someone else is going to. Maybe an opportunity next weekend with the next summit push - hundreds of people are still waiting for their own chance to summit and have invested too much to turn back no matter what. I would like to see some strong statements, by American Alpine Assoc or whomever, condemning the Everest scene and making recommendations to the govt of Nepal. I know there are maoist guerrillas and whatnot but this is something they can easily deal with.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 23, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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Flouride I came to the exact same conclusion. If the climbing community doesn't take the lead in policing this, someone else is going to.
Let's protest!
Occupy Everest!!
hmmmmm wait....nevermind...
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raymond phule
climber
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May 23, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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Why care about what happens on Everest?
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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May 23, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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Why? Because it dumbs down climbing, and obscures the accomplishments of real climbers when these dweebs buy their way to the summit and then capitalize on their big puffed up climber image.
That's why!
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raymond phule
climber
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May 23, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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Because it dumbs down climbing
Climbing Everest has very little in common with the climbing I have done.
Why don't ban all kinds of guiding?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 23, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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The only way to self-regulate is to remove the mystique of Everest itself... I bet its generational and it will die out within 10-15 years all by itself.
Wanna bet on that? There's a lot more than Americans in the picture.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 23, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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I agree with Fluoride on 4,4, and 5.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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May 23, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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What happens on Everest stays on Everest.
Sort of......
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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The fees need to be upped.
Maybe a $1K deposit per oxygen bottle return.
Instead of $10K peak fee add on a $15K school and orphan's fund.
And summiteer limits and mandatory turn around times enforced by strict law.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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May 23, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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One of the good things about climbing, though, is that it doesn't have a lot of regulations. We wouldn't want it to be like scuba diving or skydiving. These commercial activities aren't a part of climbing, though.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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While not running for office, 4, 4, 5 will save a lot of lives. Or vet those who should not be on the mountain.
445!!!!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
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Be patient, the famous mountain will continue to shrink and will become less and less desirable as a destination of last resort.
The world's tallest mountain, Everest is to be re-measured after a recent survey suggested the summit is getting smaller because of global warming. ... a Chinese climbing team will use satellite and radar technology to find out its actual height.
Think about something else whilst waiting.
According to the World Health Organization:
56 Million deaths occur per year or about
153,400 per day, or a little more than 100 per minute.
Also,
225 births every minute, or something just over 350,000 per day.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 23, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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speaking of stripper heals, wouldn't these make it more on-topic?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 23, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
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Mia Hamm can rip off her jersy in celebration during the internationally televised Olympics
Mia Hamm was not trying to show off her tits, was she? Different context. Posing in front of a sacred place dressed like a hooker vs ripping your shirt off in a celebration (while you still have a sports bra on).
I agree with Tami. This is total circus, and probably belongs in her book.
I wish stuff that goes on Everest would be published less. Whatever happens on Everest should stay there.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 23, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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Funny a bunch of U.S. climbers favor imposing Everest climbing requirements. I reckon I wouldn't be that happy to show some guy from Nepal that I know how to place a blue camalot before I'm allowed to climb on my next Yosemite outing.
Personally, I don't wish anyone harm but just don't give a shite what goes on up on Everest.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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Vitaly, it was Brandi Chastain at the World Cup who did that. Sometime in the early 2000's. Was in Pasadena though.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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No Flouride it was Mia Hamm in the Olympics after winning the gold.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 23, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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Vitaly, it was Brandi Chastain
Whoever it was, she was not trying to act like a little slut.
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
|
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May 23, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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I just realized...the real problem here is not morals or lack of preparation or bad guiding...it is just the innate American ability to not grasp numbers well. 300 people attempting the summit of Everest and only four die. That is miraculously low compared to any other 8000 meter peak?! Certainly nothing at all compared to K2, Annapurna, Kanchanjunga....So garage your opinions. A few deaths in the Death Zone certainly comes as no surprise to the hordes that walk past the corpse of Scott Fisher and others on Everest. The real ethical considerations are crowding, trash(including corpses) left on the mountain...etceteras. I stopped being remotely impressed by anyone climbing Everest by the trade routes long ago...Perhaps the mountaineering literature should start to reflect the widespread disdain for trade routes more than it does already...
"Every life is precious...but why do I treat them with such disdain?"
CP
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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May 23, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
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Check again, Philo.
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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May 23, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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And Ron...The truth is locals never went near base camp until they started granting permits, which diluted the sacredness, and so really there are no base camp locals...it is all kabuki, and frankly I am only offended by her bleached blonde hair...I mean really...did she not get the memo? Bleached hair is so last century! I prefer my exotic dancers on Everest to have black or brown hair and unshaven....
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 23, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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Yeah, it was NOT Mia Hamm
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
|
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May 23, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Vitally... you say "Slut" like it is a bad thing?
"You need look only deep inside your own soul to find that which is truly despicable"
CP
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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May 23, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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rockermike is a genius!
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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May 23, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
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They jug every step from base camp on the South and North routes now...That is why they are all in line. It is the antithesis of mountaineering....they could get a line like that on the Nose if they would let them fix the whole route! Imagine all the Bridge Tourons...give them a ten minute jugging lesson, a supply of valium for anxiety and send them on their way...The Park could charge two thousand for a permit, another thousand for the "Guides"....It would be a dream come true for many people....
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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That photo was clearly Brandi Chastain during the World Cup almost a decade ago.
Mia Hamm would NEVER do that.
Sorry Pihilo, you got that one wrong.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 23, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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"shes built like a real brick shithouse, a regular man-trap.
i'd stay away from her, jonathon."
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jstan
climber
|
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May 23, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
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I just realized...the real problem here is not morals or lack of preparation or bad guiding...it is just the innate American ability to not grasp numbers well. 300 people attempting the summit of Everest and only four die. That is miraculously low compared to any other 8000 meter peak?!
A news source claimed some 400 sherpa were helping these people negotiate the khumbu. Everest has become the world's largest ferrata. No limit has been placed on the manpower needed to implement it.
Less than a year ago, I asked here why we don’t make the Nose a ferrata. You could get hundreds up each day. Just like Half Dome.
Aren't we segueing in that same direction?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 23, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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Um, no. Aside from the Everest anomaly, the style in which people climb has generally improved over time along with technique, knowledge and equipment.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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Yes I was wrong it was not Hamm in the Olympics. It was Brandi in the World Cup.
I stand corrected. Except I still stand that it was quite a bit ore shameful than Jona posing in BC. Only a few hundred witnessed that, where as Brandi (isn't that a stripper name) was seen by up to a billion people world wide. American strumpets stripping for a world audience. For shame.
At least there is nothing sacred about soccer or the World Cup.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 23, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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"it was Brandi"
So glad it wasn't Fartrad or Locklear, I mean Locker.
Soooo freakin glad.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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Philo are you nuts?
Brandi is a professional soccer player who doffed her jersey upon winning the World Cup in Pasadena, California. A very forgiving place. She competed game after game just to get to the finals.
Me...I thought it was stupid when she doffed her jersey but she was in the moment of the lifetime of her career so I waved its off as a weird moment of triumph. And she didn't do it to be sexy, she's flat chested.
Jona....she's posing in stripper LUCITE HEELS in sexy poses at one of the Everest base camps. She's not in competition, she's not in one moment that may or may never again happen in her lifetime.
Please tell me where there's an equal comparison.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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May 23, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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But what if she was the first up Everest in Da Brim?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 23, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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Flouride, there is no equal comparison. Neither act offended me in the slightest.
I merely wanted to point out the ludicrousness of kicking Jona in the bustier when there are real dilemmas on Everest.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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Philo you still don't get it.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 23, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
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Yeah Flouride I do.
Some folks are offended. OK. So what.
i am offended by the commercial circus show that has become Everest.
But adventure tourism is bringing in over 1.4 billion dollars into those economies.
I doubt they want to pull the plug because Jona did not demonstrate what some believe is proper behavior. Posing in costume like a exotic dancer doesn't make you a bimbo hooker any more than dressing like a gentleman makes you gentle or a man.
So some folks are offended I understand,
It still is inappropriate to cast such misogynistic aspersions at someone with no real knowledge of that person.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 23, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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No Philo.
You can't put a World Class soccer world champ who worked her life off for that title in the same place as a girl who wants to be photographed in stripper heels and a tight dress at the base of Everest so she has some hot looking photos in her portfolio.
If she's as bad ass as you say, post it up! What has she done? Pics? (since it seems you say she likes those). If she's actually there to climb the mountain I wish her all the best.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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May 23, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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I heard that Lucite heels are great for bolt removal. Didn't K&K take a pair to Chalten?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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Philo....stand tall....don't let that lady bring you down to her level....RJ
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 12:29am PT
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Johnny, always thought of you as a friend. This is just reasoning going on here.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 24, 2012 - 12:39am PT
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I thought we were married....? Friends...? I'm crushed...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 24, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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If she's as bad ass as you say, post it up! What has she done? Pics?
She went to Ouray and took some pics with climbers she thought were bad ass. Pics were posted already.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 02:57am PT
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That doesn't count.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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May 24, 2012 - 08:34am PT
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Why does this totally relevant thread have less posts than that stupid *TR* thread? Bump for a worthy discussion.
Interesting topic. I don't know that I have qualifications to have an opinion on the morality of high- altitude guiding. Everest just seems like such a circus these days. Such a farce to stand in a line to get dragged up a mountain covered in bodies and litter. It, literally, boggles my mind, why anyone would want to pay $60K(?) to do it.
Side note: Poor Jona sort of got unfairly dragged into this thread. I don't know her, but from all accounts she is a nice girl with legit climbing skills. That being said.. I'm about as un-spiritual as it gets and I admit I cringed a bit at the cheesecake shot on the memorial. It's not her personally.. it's what that photo represents in terms of the state of Chomolungma in modern times that I find a bit disturbing.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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Here is a current picture from Everest Base Camp.
This is bad ass climber Mariano Galvan.
He just did an unsupported, un assisted no O2 ascent of Everest.
He carried all his own gear, climbed without sherpa support and did not use the fixed lines.
Big Kudos to Jona's friend! Now that's climbing in style.
Oh and he is almost nekid at base camp. Does he get a morals pass because of his accomplishment or should he be blamed for the 11 dead on Everest because of his amoral impropriety?
I just yesterday talked with Jona. She has read this thread and finds it simultaneously funny and sad.
She realizes how many people judge without understanding. It was the Sherpas at BC that set up her BC shoot and encouraged her to do it. So much for offending the natives.
Side note: Poor Jona sort of got unfairly dragged into this thread. I don't know her, but from all accounts she is a nice girl with legit climbing skills. That being said.. I'm about as un-spiritual as it gets and I admit I cringed a bit at the cheesecake shot on the memorial. It's not her personally.. it's what that photo represents in terms of the state of Chomolungma in modern times that I find a bit disturbing. Thank you Justthemaid, that was a proper response, well said and I agree with you.
So I am a little annoyed that Jim Donini's legitimate thread, which by the way I agree with whole heartedly, has morphed into a referendum against a friend of mine.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
|
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May 24, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
|
It all reminds me of the time I spent way out on the West Coast of BC with some eco-nazi's.
Their moral high ground was similar to the tone of this thread. I asked one of the Chiefs at a village we stayed at why don't they send their kids to trade school in Vancouver so they can take care of infrastructure themselves instead of all the white tradespeople I saw fixing broken sh#t.
The Chief said if they sent their kids to the City, they would never come back to the village.
This is how you preserve a culture, that isn't worth preserving, at the expense of the childrens future.
Suck on that one you bone heads ...
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
|
BMACD, I got your message thanx!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
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May 24, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
|
Shouldn't we be sporting a few pics of Part Time Communist about now?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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May 24, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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What will be interesting I think is ConRad's boy Max Lowe, and the project he's got going on.
He stayed with us here in Delhi prior to heading to Nepal and shared with us his upcoming project. He has a grant from Nat. Geo to do a photo/doc about how life has changed for the Sherpa up in that region due to the influence(s) of mountaineering/tourism. I'm looking forward to learning a few things from that perspective and what he gathers.
http://adventureblog.nationalgeographic.com/author/maxloweeverest/
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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May 24, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Haha. Good one philo.
Seems to be a bit of a double standard perhaps.
But my view hasn't changed.
Such a zoo has no allure to me.
If people are willing to pay huge sums to shuffle up the conga line, and Nepal and China cry all the way to the bank, then it just underscores how pitiful humans can be.
Until guides are certified, licensed, and paid FAR more then they are on a fool's errand.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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Exactly Ron I agree with you 100%.
Tami if you want I can post up enough BC pics of Corporate Logos to make your head spin.
So Ron, if it isn't about her why do you keep insisting on disparaging her with the ugly labels you use.
Let's get back on topic here.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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I love you Tami.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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Shouldn't we be sporting a few pics of Part Time Communist about now?
Everest needs some PTC
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
|
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May 24, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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a. that guy isn't doing a posed beefcake shot dressed up for a professional photog.
b. he looks emaciated, like he just summited Everest under grueling conditions
c. it doesn't look staged, it looks spontaneous.
Thanks Philo.....I do appreciate your efforts.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 24, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
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Just countering double standards where ever I find them.
So spontaneity is the magic key.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 24, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Thievery on Everest is unfortunately not new.
Pathetic and indefensible to be sure but not new.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 24, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
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Well Ron if you are tired of the welts and bruises perhaps you could consider my favotite saying.
Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak up and prove it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 24, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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Meanwhile a 69 year old Italian guy who had stopped at Camp 3 on the north side
and was refusing to come down because he wanted another summit
attempt, descended to Camp2 on his own and was "rescued" from there with
bad frostbite.
Hard to say if he was just overly ambitious or had gone weird from the
altitude or both, but surviving above 8,000 meters for two nights with no oxygen
at his age was quite a feat. He should make the Guiness Book of Records if
nothing else.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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May 24, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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Karen McNeil posed at the base of Cho Oyu in a short skirt and heels, Margot Talbot took a photo at the south pole in a bikini top.....
Who gives a sh#t. Have some fun, we are stardust and no one lives forever.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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^^^ +1 ^^^
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
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May 24, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
|
In one of the news articles, its says there are SIX MILES of fixed ropes on Everest. The next step is obviously to replace them with steel cables ....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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And a ski lift with a Starbucks on both ends.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 24, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
|
If there was ever a good place for an oxygen bar,..
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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^^^ LOL ^^^
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
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May 24, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
|
they get attacked by other women who look like men
Attacking a woman for attacking a woman. I think you are going to be attacked for that.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
|
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May 24, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
|
Has anyone mentioned Stupid Hats yet?
Any news of their expedition?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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May 24, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
|
Unfortunately, getting the end result by any means possible is murdering the journey for many others. As long as there people willing to pay for the results, other people will help supply the means.
Hopefully this is one of those tipping points where many will take a step back and ask themselves "Do I really want to be a part of this?"
There are so many other beautiful mountains with fantastic routes. Is the "tallest" really that important? Maybe Freud was right.
I don't have a problem with Guiding. People make their own decisions based on what they can justify to themselves. If you guide someone, knowing they aren't qualified, that is indefensible in my book. If someone goes off on their own and gets themselves killed based on lack of skill and experience, that is one thing. If you facilitate it for money, that is another thing. If you agree to take someone up Everest who has no high mountain experience, then abandon them to die, how do you justify it? Because you told them they could die? Might be hard to sleep at night after that.
This is more about bolting, but I think the concept still applies.
http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/12/murder-of-impossible.html
Prayers for a safe return regardless.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 24, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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Getting attacked via emails from a dude defending a chick who is a confusing father f*cker was pretty funny.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
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May 24, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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^^^^ Michael who and what are you referring to? ^^^
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
|
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May 24, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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Some dude got his ePeen all up in a bunch and emailed me about how sweet some girl on the forum was and blah blah blah. All I said was she is a confusing mother f*cker. He told me she couldn't f*ck women so I changed it to father f*cker.
I think he's tryna' hit it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 24, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
|
Seriously at this point it would actually be better for everyone if they put Trams to the top.
Electric lines and a nice pressurized hut.
The real climbers would still climb and the rest can be on top of the world for a handsome fee. Less than current expedition but still possibly very profitable with volume.
No trash up easy to get current trash and bodies off.
I'm actually serious. It could be a cash cow for Nepal.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 24, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
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What would be the best way to assemble a pressurized ski lift at 29,000 feet? I doubt heavy equipment would work up there, and you're gonna need a lot of sherpas to haul up those 45 foot, 6 ton steel support structures. Why not just take a hot air balloon to 30,000 feet? Sheesh.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 24, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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electricity and winches. Gives you unlimited oxygen. It would be a hell of a construction project.
Another possibility might be easier.
Drill a tunnel to the top with electric rail or elevators.
Anyone with serious experience able to give a napkin level design plan and cost estimate?
Pie in the sky gets new meaning?
----------
Donini will now delete the thread..lol
He has a thing about cables..let alone a tram I suppose :)
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 24, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
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Is the mountain stable enough for a full on tunnel and elevator system?
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murf02
climber
NYC
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May 24, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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Was guiding Shriya Shah up Everest morally defensible?
Other than her determination to succeed, she was doomed the second she made the decision to follow through on her childhood dream. She did nothing right and its all documented. Forget that the only mountain or trek or climb was 20' jug laps at a local climbing gym, Shriya was on a year long photo opportunity. The guy who runs the trekking company that she paid a large sum of money should be locked up or even better take a number at the Hillary Step (151 would work).
She's not the first person with a dream of "standing on top of the world", but most will have some what of a clue. You're paying all that dough why not bag a few peaks and a volcano or two in South America; technical training on Rainier; break trail on snowshoes for a week all at the very least. Shriya put on a weighted pack and hopped on the treadmill.
I would like to see her family use Shriya's death too possibly save others but from what I'm reading it’s the same old cliché and her death from the cheap seats seems meaningless.
RIP Shriya Shah
Sorry for the rant but I watched her interview again with the local Canadian news. It seems the second you tell people "I'm climbing Everest" you become something your not.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 24, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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I'm never climbing Everest.
Sh*t's above my pay grade.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 24, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
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What is all this loose talk? You don't think surfers were not righteously offended when this appeared?
Heels and outfit OK+ to OK+++. Keep that boat out of the line-up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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Story on the NBC evening News actually recognized that the crowds have now become an additional objective hazard.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 25, 2012 - 01:22am PT
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Why is she still wearing stripper heels? What "athlete" does that?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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May 25, 2012 - 01:42am PT
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those heels look like a good way to break an ankle.
barefoot or sticky rubber!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 25, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Guide Companies that accept, allow and encourage inexperienced but wealthy trophy hunters, who cant put on their own crampons or handle disconnecting and reconnecting Jumars, to attempt Everest are not morally defensible.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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May 25, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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Story on the NBC evening News actually recognized that the crowds have now become an additional objective hazard.
Here is the link to the NBC story that Piton Ron spoke about:
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47558865/#47558865
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 25, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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Good piece Plaidman.
When overcrowding is killing more people than objective hazards, something has to change.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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May 25, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
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From the Ueli Steck interview at http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/news.php?id=20842
Explorersweb: Are you going for a speed attempt?
Ueli: No. I'm happy to reach summit without O2. Speed ascents on this route are just not my thing. There are so many factors involved that are not really about climbing. What's the point of running up a fixed line? Waiting until sherpas have fixed the mountain, and then myself "the superman" running up the prepared pist? That's not climbing to me, just a marketing gimmick.
And from where do you start the clock? Basecamp? It takes 20 minutes for me to cross BC from one end to the other. Or do you start at the Khumbu Icefall. Where exactly does that begin? I took me two-and-a-half hours from BC to camp 2. I thought it good exercise, like going for a run on a trail.
And is it OK to have gear stashed? Seriously, I could leave my expedition boots at C2 so I could run from BC to C2 in running shoes. I could change into a light mountain boot up to the south col, where I'd put on my climbing boots and change to a down-suit I had left there.
Then of course I would need to have food and water in each camp. And have people and sleepingbags ready in case of emergency. How do you pass people, or deal with the problems that come up if you have to wait?
Explorersweb: Last week we interviewed Pato on the north side, he said he'll ask people to let him by on the ropes...
Ueli: That's exactly why I'm not going for a speed ascent. I don't like to disturb other people. If I can pass I will of course, but if it's not possible I'll have to wait. I don't have the right to push other people around just because I'm Ueli Steck...
Explorersweb: So what's your plan?
Ueli: Have fun climbing.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 25, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Maybe the guiding fee should double to include a rescue fee...? After all , rescuing someone at that altitude is more difficult than making them ascend a fixed rope via jumars...Wouldn't this eliminate some of the trophy hunting fodder..? RJ
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 25, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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Probably not. But having to demonstrate competency at basic mountaineering skills like putting your own crampons on would.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 25, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
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Extra money would better be spent I think, by supplying more oxygen and
other supplies to begin with. From what I can see, the smart companies are
having their clients spend 24 hours at the south col resting, sleeping and
hydrating before the final push instead of rushing them from Camp 3 to
the top and all the way back down to Camp 2.
And as Philos says, making the clients demonstrate some compentency
to begin with.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 25, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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somebody tell all those wealthy Everest tourists to spend their money on space tourism instead
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 25, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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Is the mountain stable enough for a full on tunnel and elevator system?
Sleds Over Everest are currently trying to do active research to find out
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 26, 2012 - 05:39am PT
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I just knew that climbing that mountain wasn't your real goal!
Now I understand. So who's paying for this expedition?
With lobster and all, I suspect it's the same people who
sponsored those other expeditions in the Himalayas
in the 60's.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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May 26, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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Why don't the guides put in some extra lanes? On the broad slopes unlimited ropes could be fixed. Even on the Hillary Step several ropes could be set up.
Hillary Step
Blue Sheep
More pics: http://trekkinnepal.com/fr/gallery.php
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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Ah yes, the Himalayas, my kind of place- every year more people and fewer Blue Sheep, Snow Leopards, Himalayan Bears...........
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Good Ron, they need to create more lanes where the traffic jams are, but don't you think ladders would be better than bolts, it's not like people go up there to actually climb.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 26, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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they go there to stand on top jim
meanwhile a long time ago on everests backside a pair of heels make it to the kangschung abc all we could do was pose.
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TRo
climber
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May 26, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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With 6 miles of fixed rope it's basically a via ferrata anyway(actually a via kernmantella). What's a couple of more lines? Next thread should be is bolting at 29000 feet morally defensible?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 26, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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How about ladders for the Hillary Step and a giant slip and slide to BC for the descent? Could be the World's tallest amusement ride.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 26, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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From http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/
I am not aware of any more summit attempts but am always surprised by
last minute pushes on both sides – more often on the North so will keep
you informed.
This far we have 389 summits on the South and 148 on the North for a
total of 537 using my very unscientific estimates. It will take many months
to get the correct final numbers. According to 8000ers.com, the record
year was in 2007 with 633 total summits.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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May 26, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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There aren't enough purist climbers to defend Everest against much greater indignities like gondolas, tunnels, etc. With 1000's of hikers going up fixed ropes we gain huge numbers of allies.
The roads and trails in Yosemite have brought millions into the park, millions that will defend it. Without all these defenders the Republicans would sell it off to private exploitation.
http://wildnet.org/wildlife/snowleopard.html?gclid=CMLx0q7RnrACFYcZQgods0pPXw
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 26, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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Maybe da ropes already der
Ueli: Have fun climbing.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 27, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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bolting war on mt. everest! EIA at 29,000 feet! boffo!
hey, any falcon nests up there?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 27, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Send in Kruk and Kennedy.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 27, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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This reminds me of the "wilderness values" dilemma recently played out in the Bugaboos. There was a proposal to establish a via ferrata on a rock spur leading up to the bugaboo snowpatch col.
The proposed route for the ladders is also subject to rockfall. I've been in the B-S area perhaps ten times, and seen rockfall hit the via ferrata route twice. There's more loose rock on the Bugaboo side, but neither is rockfall free.
IIRC, another argument for it was that with global warming etc, the B-S col was getting icier, with the bergschrund more often a problem. Which gets back to routes in the Bugs being alpine climbs, even if they're alpine rock climbs, and the need for climbers there to be prepared for ice and glacier travel.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 27, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
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I agree it would be less exposed to rockfall, but it's still somewhat exposed. The lower slab to anything falling from the 300+ metres above, and disintegrating into shrapnel on impact; the upper 'buttress' merely being somewhat loose. No right answer, unfortunately.
What?! You say that the masses are sometimes asses? How can that be?
Edit: The photo shows the area as of 2008, when the via ferrata was proposed. How would the date I was last there be relevant to the discussion of whether the via ferrata is subject to rockfall, or appropriate? There are more people there now since the last time I was there, and has been snow/glacial recession, but that's not news.
FWIW, I've been to the Bugaboos five times that I can recall, the first in 1974 and the last in the 1990s. Maybe 30 days total.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 27, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
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Major Bummer.
I was just reminded of Sir Ed's death. It's a Memorial Day thing.
All these last weeks I was wondering why we hadn't heard from the man.
I think he would be a bit sad.
I also remember a time when we thought we cared about earth stuff, you know, green and free from yuck.
Youngsters may want to hold your applause for the Indian.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
He is as eloquent as he ever was, just seldom seen or heard.
He could be a Sherpa, for our purposes, but he's got reservations about that.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 27, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
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Nepal has far worse problems than Everest to worry about. They could be in a state of civil war again by this time next year.
Nepal faces fresh turmoil after charter deadline missed
By Gopal Sharma | Reuters – 8 hrs ago
KATHMANDU (Reuters) - Nepal's warring political parties failed to meet a midnight deadline to agree on a new constitution on Sunday, plunging the Himalayan republic into further uncertainty, but the government moved quickly to defuse the crisis with a call for elections.
A new constitution was widely seen as crucial to ending the instability that has plagued Nepal since the end of a Maoist-led civil war in 2006 and subsequent overthrow of the monarchy, but it has been thwarted by demands for the country to be divided into states along ethnic lines.
The debate has sparked violent protests in recent weeks and ethnic groups have staged demonstrations near the parliament building where a Constituent Assembly of politicians had until Sunday night to end its haggling and agree on the charter.
Barsha Man Pun, a Maoist minister told reporters after an emergency cabinet meeting that the government had decided to hold another round of elections for the assembly - which has doubled as a parliament - on November 22.
"We had no other alternative," he told reporters. "We apologize for not being able to prepare the constitution."
Earlier, several partners in the ruling coalition stormed out of the cabinet meeting, decrying the Maoist's "unilateral" decision to set the country on course for fresh elections.
"The election will only add to the turmoil because the government did not take major political parties and all of its coalition partners into confidence," said Kapil Kafle, editor of the Nepal Samacharpatra daily.
More than a dozen people were injured after protesters tried to break a security cordon outside the parliament in Kathmandu, prompting police to baton charge the demonstrators and fire teargas, police spokesman Binod Singh said.
ETHNIC TENSION
Prolonged instability in Nepal, which sits on the source of rivers that supply water to millions in South Asia, could suck neighbors China and India into competition for influence there. Both are important donors and trade partners for Nepal, a poverty-stricken country dependent on aid and tourism.
Diplomats say that because of its political uncertainty Nepal has failed to exploit the export potential presented by the rapid growth of its giant neighbors, and investors have avoided the country. The economy grew by 3.5 percent last year, its lowest rate in four years.
The new constitution was to have been a key part of the peace deal struck with the Maoists to end their revolt.
However, the assembly missed several deadlines for the charter because of deep divisions over the number, boundaries and names of the nation's states.
The assembly is dominated by the Maoists, who waged their revolt on a pledge to empower the country's many ethnic groups after centuries of exclusion and discrimination.
The Maoists want the creation of up to 14 states named after ethnic groups, and are backed by several small Madhesi parties demanding an autonomous state in the country's southern plains.
"The demands for ethnic autonomy have become so strong that if they are not addressed they could lay the seeds for further conflict as happed in Sri Lanka and Aceh," said Kunda Dixit, editor of the Nepali Times weekly.
(Reporting by Gopal Sharma; Editing by John Chalmers)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 28, 2012 - 03:00am PT
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Jan, thanks for keeping it real and up to date.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 28, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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I agree with Jan.
They have far more pressing concerns.
This will be self regulating, and though I suspect a major cluster disaster will happen, it won't lessen the hordes.
And Ron, if the Swiss really all got along they wouldn't speak a half dozen different languages!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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May 30, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/30/everest-mountaineer-crowding-hobby-tragedy?newsfeed=true
He spoke of encountering an "overweight French journalist – a small woman weighing around 80kg, who had used her entire supply of oxygen before she'd reached any height at all, and an American of Turkish origin who was carrying his bicycle with him because it had always been his dream to take it to the summit and insisted on fulfilling that dream at whatever cost".
...
"As far as I could see a state of mass hysteria had broken out. Everyone was fixated on making it to the summit by 19 May or they faced the prospect of missing their chance for that season."
He said that when he returned to Kathmandu, "the hospitals were heaving with patients, most of whom were being treated for severe hypothermia and frost bite".
He issued a passionate plea to the Nepalese government to introduce stricter regulations to control both the flow of tourists and to filter out those not physically fit enough to do the climb.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 30, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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Send in Kruk and Kennedy.
One of the funniest comments on the thread. Imagine the internet-storm there would be if someone takes down the ladders!!! The look on their faces when they see a dude walking down the hill with a ladder as they approach the step would be priceless. Muhuhahaha too funny.
a dude carrying a bike up Everest...He should have enlisted in "SLEDS over Everest" dumb fool.
+100000
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 30, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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It would have been even funnier if the sherpas had to help K & K down from the ladders. And for sure I wish them well.
The best thing would be to hire the sherpas to take down the ladders. Everest at present is more tragedy than comedy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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Consumerism or Death! Life just isn't worth it without shopping.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 30, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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I'd do dirty to her hairy.
Wait what?
Is it morally defensible to use a Birkin's bag made by Hermes' as a poop tube?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 30, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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There's no such thing as a $100,000 handbag, only a $10 handbag that suckers are willing to pay $100,000 for. (OK, at a stretch the materials and workmanship might be worth $100.) A fine piece of performance art and social satire, although why it took $4 worth of gasoline to burn the thing is hard to understand.
Hopefully we won't later discover that the handbag manufacturer donated the thing, and is revelling in the publicity. But then, its sourcing practices probably could do with a closeup.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 30, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Probably burned a cheap knock-off (who's gonna know after it's burned?)
Could be interpreted as a statement against materialism but in all this excitement I can't remember if I shot 5 or 6, but seeing as how this a .44magnum , the most powerful handgun in the world, you gotta be asking yourself one thing, punk!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
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You might have something Dingus. Keep in mind, both groups of clothing are also "functional." One has the function of keeping you warm and dry the other of getting the wearer laid. Both pretty important in my mind.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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May 30, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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This thread has gone from people suffering on Everest to hot gals in lingerie ....
I like it ... much nicer to look at than the frozen dead
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 30, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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Anders...it was a Birkin. The top of Hermes' line of accessories.
There is actually a wait list to get one...no, I'm not joking.
For her to burn a $100K bag in the name of "art", she should be stripped of the name "Eastwood" and forced to work an honest day's job in her life.
Spoiled brat.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 30, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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For her to burn a $100K bag in the name of "art", she should be stripped of the name "Eastwood" and forced to work an honest day's job in her life.
As art, it sort of sucks. As a protest against consumerism, it might have worked. Burn it to show people that when a handbag that costs $100k is gone, it's no different from a handbag that costs $50.00 being gone. There is nothing intrinsically valuable in that handbag, just the cost of desire and elitism.
Maybe that's what they meant and just marketed their message wrong.
Dave
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Degaine
climber
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May 31, 2012 - 01:55am PT
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donini wrote:
One has the function of keeping you warm and dry the other of getting the wearer laid.
Victoria Secret lingerie keeps you warm and dry?
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Degaine
climber
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May 31, 2012 - 02:05am PT
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fluoride wrote:
For her to burn a $100K bag in the name of "art", she should be stripped of the name "Eastwood" and forced to work an honest day's job in her life.
Spoiled brat.
How do you know that she has not worked an honest day's job in her life? Back up one sec, how do you define an honest day's job? What do you do for a living that makes you so well suited to judge?
You seem pretty bitter, whether it be with regard to Ms. Eastwood, or Philo's blond-haired friend attempting Everest, and it's clearly not bringing out the best in you.
A lot of posters in here have vouched for you over the years and your high quality of character, don't prove them wrong with posts like the above or those about Jona.
If you really are so mad that you just can't help yourself, you might want to seek the services of a professional - counselor, psychologist, etc. (just a suggestion).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 31, 2012 - 04:25am PT
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Hillary was guided right?
Of course it's dangerous and the clients should know that. Ironcially, climbing everest costs big bucks, guided or not, and everybody seems to use the fixed swag that the sherpas put up there particularly at the icefall and hillary step
So it's all guided more or less in my mind.
People, guided or not, fixate on the trophy status of the thing. That's their thing, It's not mine
Just the way it is. Not saying it's bad or good, just out of my interest
Peace
Karl
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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May 31, 2012 - 05:44am PT
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For her to burn a $100K bag in the name of "art", she should be stripped of the name "Eastwood" and forced to work an honest day's job in her life.
Not knowing Whether she has worked an honest day's job in her life I still don't understand the difference. If she had worked enough to earn the pennies to buy it it's still just a superficial piece of consumerism crap that might look pretty.
Removing the means to how it was acquired the burning of it stands on it's own merits. It doesn't necessarily need to be about who is doing the burning so much as that which is being burned.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2012 - 06:41am PT
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I agree with Karl, all of Everest is guided. Nothing makes the Sherpas more amused than the western climbers who brag about climbing independently or soloing - all the while using ropes fixed by the Sherpas.
Now calls are being made to establish two fixed lines next year instead of one and instead of limiting the number of climbers. Capitalism at its best!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2012 - 06:43am PT
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Final new:
On May 29, a 68 year old Australian woman made it to the top along with several other teams while a speed climb by Ecuadorian Patricio Tisalema, "Pato" was aborted above Camp 3 because the Sherpa accompanying him passed out and needed help descending. This goes down with the Turkish man rescuing an Israeli as the most heartening news of the season.
The season itself is finished as the monsoon has arrived and the fixed ropes are being taken down starting today.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 31, 2012 - 09:45am PT
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how about being happy for the local population surrounding everest.
the trickle down means everybody eats and prospers.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2012 - 09:51am PT
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Yes it does, and that is good. Can't help but notice, however, the extreme difference in income between the locals of one of the poorest countries in Asia and the the clients who are well to do people from the richest countries on Earth.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 31, 2012 - 10:18am PT
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i agree with that. how much do you tip after spending $60,000?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2012 - 10:25am PT
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It's not how much you make, it's how far your money will go.
Most of the climbing Sherpas I know make about $6,000 a year. However, the per capita income in Nepal is only $400, putting the Sherpas in the upper middle class. Many of my friends who lived in little more than huts 40 years ago now have sons who own three story concrete houses in Kathmandu that are all paid for.
The really rich Sherpas are the ones who took their mountaineering money and bought land before the great Kathmandu real estate bubble and then sold in the midst of it. They send their sons to be educated in Europe and America now though they themselves often have little more than a third grade education.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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May 31, 2012 - 10:36am PT
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That's a dilemma, but the tourist business might be better if the Everest scene wasn't such an eyesore. In Ecuador, the UN pays the govt to keep certain areas as wild nature preserves. I spent a few weeks with the park service in the Sangay park (a very active volcano) which is a protected tiger preserve. The ecuadoran govt took the un money and hired a bunch of park rangers to keep people from settling inside the preserve. So basically, you turn the sherpas into rangers who enforce rules like, don't throw oxygen bottles, etc. They could also serve as a garbage patrol to try to clean up the mess.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 31, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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recent photo from Everest:
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Looks like a good ski slope.
Take a pair of skis on the way up and ski back down on the descent instead of slogging down .....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 31, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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I like Don Paul's idea.
And Jan's info on how some Sherpas have used mountaineering to hoist themselves up by their bootstraps is encouraging.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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It's not realistic to worry about what to do with oxygen bottles when your client is about to pass out just changing from one to another or worse yet, near death. Instead, the Sherpas are paid $15 an empty oxygen bottle and collecting them is what they do on their days off or after their clients have collapsed in their tents. When they go down to base camp to carry new supplies or when they take down the fixed ropes at the end, they carry down the oxygen bottles for their refunds as well.
There is an expedition almost every year for the express purpose of cleaning up Everest. One of the contributors always is the Sagarmatha Pollution Control Committee, run by Sherpas. They also installed outhouses along the trek and designated garbage dumps. The UN paid for special stoves to incinerate the stuff.
Commercial climbing firms are now required by the government of Nepal to check in at Kathmandu with barrels of human waste which they collect in the tent latrines at base camp. There are fines of several thousand dollars if they don't.
The main problem at this point is the bodies stewn on the mountain.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 31, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
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well its not like you can just go and pick up the bodies and take them down
they are frozen to the mountain, bonded. it will take several hours of
hacking to just to get em loose.i dont see anyone lining up for that job
but the sherpas will get the grisly task im sure.
perhaps just leave em, part and parcel of the 2013 show
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 31, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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It seems few bodies will be removed with climbers equipped with current high altitude equipment. It is not realistic that someone is going to climb to 27,000+ feet, hack a body out of the ice and carry it down, at least within any acceptable levels of risk.
I wonder if using something like astronauts suits/oxygen systems would work. Laser guided high altitude para-cargo drops of oxygen and/or pressurized work stations? Crazy, but if anyone cares enough it would take some serious technology, expense and willingness to do a nasty job to get rid of the fixed corpses.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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May 31, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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Shiryah Shah's body was recovered by a team of 5 sherpas in horrible weather...word is the guiding company felt horrible about her death and did it gratis.
She was brought down to base camp to be helo'd out, She's one of the rare ones. She collapsed and died a few meters from Scott Fischer's body 48 meters from the summit..
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zBrown
Ice climber
mercenario de merced
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May 31, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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Send those 5 sherpas up to the summit. Have them bring back a whole bunch of rocks. Break 'em up into small pieces. Close the mountain to all access. Sell the little rocks to those who need a piece of the action for $100,000, kinda like the floor at the Boston Garden. Give the proceeds to the folks in Tibet. People will stop dying up there.
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zBrown
Ice climber
mercenario de merced
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May 31, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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^ Righto
"Also the mountain itself feels like is losing it's value. Just about everyone seems to want to climb it by paying a Sherpa who will ensure reaching the summit."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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"Does this make any sense?"
Uh, no, it won't make any cents in the third world.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Well we have been all over the place with Jim's topic. So with the idea that it is ludicrous (or morally indefensible) to pay a guide company $60,000 to climb Everest. I saw at a climbing gym that a guide service is offering a day of climbing in the Eastern Sierra with a well know climber for only $650 a day. That's damn near as much as it cost to climb Everest. How defensible is that!
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aguacaliente
climber
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Now calls are being made to establish two fixed lines next year instead of one and instead of limiting the number of climbers. Capitalism at its best!
I have an even better idea. Instead of using those big helicopters for recovery missions, let's use them to pile up enough big rocks to build some 8000m peak up so it's taller than Everest. Maybe just the South Summit?
Then all the trophy-peak-hunters will have to go to THIS peak, and all the people who did the Seven Summits (excuse me, the Former Seven Summits) will have to come back and do this one again. If we swing it right, we can partner with the government and DNC (I'm sure DNC will get the concession) to charge tolls, like on the Mt. Washington road.
Seriously, climbers calling for the government to demand climbing resumes is understandable, but didn't it make people crazy when climbing was highly regulated and permitted in the US parks, long ago? I think it is a damned shame what is happening up there, but I don't think it is the Nepali government's fault that Westerners are too willing to gamble with their lives in quest of a trophy.
It seems that they should limit the number of permits and crack down on the less well-equipped and less careful guiding services, the ones that send people up unprepared or with not enough support. Russell Brice looks better for pulling out when he did, right? Such restrictions would likely make permits more expensive and the summit more of a rich person's prize. I don't see how you get around that.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I was just thinking what silver suggested.
Peak Freaks already has an Everest training session that includes one 5,800 meter peak and two over 6,000.
That provides a role model, and would provide more income as well.
http://www.peakfreaks.com/everest_mountaineering_course.htm
Given the state of the Nepalese political situation, ( a Supreme Court justice known for corruption was just
assassinated yesterday) I think these changes will have to come from the climbing agencies and the
Nepal Mountaineering Association, not the government.
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jstan
climber
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Apparently many people get into trouble on the descent.
So, rig a zip line from the summit back down to BC. Then it is just a matter of getting to the summit. Pretty exciting, what?
That will reduce the traffic by a factor of two.
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john hansen
climber
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I think two lines are better than one... I am surprised that some one can't take a chance and step off of the fixed ropes,, that slope don't look that bad.
Edit,,, Zip line sounds good,
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Degaine
climber
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This may be a rhetorical question (and already mentioned), but isn't it a guide's responsibility to evaluate the abilities of his/her clients?
On summits in the Alps like the Matterhorn or even Mont Blanc, many if not most guide companies offer week long courses with one or two summits at or above 4000m to both acclimate, bring up to speed and evaluate their clients. Many guides, if not most guides, won't take someone up the Matterhorn if they have never climbed with the person.
Seems like it could work for Everest. Instead of $60 K, you charge $75 K per head, put two summits in the package, one to evaluate, and then if all is good, Everest, and if not, another summit to improve the person's mountaineering skills.
That written, given the margin needed when guiding someone, I personally think it's crazy, bordering on suicidal, to guide people with little to no experience up an 8000m peak.
Anyway, as a guide is your life really worth $60 K per head and the inherent pressure that comes with that to summit?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The problem is that the decision to turn someone around on the mountain is
left in the hands of the Sherpas who if their client is slow, are separated by a
long distance from the western guide. It is very hard for a Sherpa to say no.
It is not in the Asian tradition to be that blunt usually, they're taught to respect
age and people who are wealthier and more educated, and they've been
carefully groomed by us for over a hundred years now to fulfill our every
demand.
The only solution is for more Sherpas to become internationally qualified guides
with the authority of guides and not just people who porter up the oxygen
bottles.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Or ban the internationally qualified guides altogether, and let the sherpas do it. That would be a really easy fix - just require a work visa to be a mountain guide in Nepal.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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They're not quite there yet but in five years they could be.
We're just now seeing the first group of college educated Sherpas
get into the business.
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dirtbag
climber
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Quote Here For her to burn a $100K bag in the name of "art", she should be stripped of the name "Eastwood" and forced to work an honest day's job in her life.
As art, it sort of sucks. As a protest against consumerism, it might have worked. Burn it to show people that when a handbag that costs $100k is gone, it's no different from a handbag that costs $50.00 being gone. There is nothing intrinsically valuable in that handbag, just the cost of desire and elitism.
Maybe that's what they meant and just marketed their message wrong.
Dave
Have her daddy sign it, but it on E-bay, it will fetch $200,000. Donate that money to a worthwhile charity: stating the obvious, a lot of good could be done with that kind of dough.
Interesting thread though.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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This is just a disaster waiting to happen.
One of the things that bugs me the most is seeing some client who refuses to turn around on summit day. I wish they had a radio controlled cut-off on their oxygen until they head down.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Quote Penba Jarbu Sherpa (from the video): "The mountain itself feels like it's loosing it's value... we can't treat it like an amusement."
He also suggests limiting the # of permits.
Penba seems pretty educated. If this is the next generation of Sherpas... they don't need no stinkin' Westerners running the show. Boot most if not all foreign guide services and a lot of the problem is solved.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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It's certainly going to be interesting talking to the Sherpas about all this the next time I go to Kathmandu!
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Rich people devalue things by buying them.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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how aboot thinking like this: succesful people spending thier monies in a poor part of the world.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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Hordes of rich caucasions driven to Everest by existential angst and hubris, fun group of people.....the sherpas must love that.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Caucasion?
I think there is a pretty large asian contingent too.
It is not so much racial as a socio-economic gap.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Says the man with the sleds.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Come on, Ron, you meanie!
You want to crush the dream of someone to be the first cross-dressing one
legged bicyclist juggler to summit while wearing a Stupid Hat?
(apologies and thanks to Tami)
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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For some reason, a lot of the Everest climbers seem to have some Guiness Book of World Records goal like that. In the movie the Dark Side of Everest, the South African lady who left several people to die, wouldn't help the rescuers or even let them borrow her radio, was going to be the first South African woman to climb both north and south routes w/o oxgyen.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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No way Ron. It's pathetic.
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Hannes
climber
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I find it quite extraordinary that it seems from reading accounts of people climbing it their first meeting with their guide (western) is either in Kathmandu or even BC. I guess it is simply too much prestige and money involved in guiding everest to weed the clients in a harsher way.
A friend of mine was telling me a bit about a customer he had in the shop he works in and I used to work in. He was an overweight saudi man who wanted to climb everest but had absolutely no experience. Somehow he'd found someone after all the reputable and less reputable guides had turned him down. The man was paying $100k to be guided up everest by a man who had himself never been above 6000m. In the shop he needed a basic tutorial on the equipment for high altitude climbing by my friend (who has climbed everest among other 8000m peaks, so much for it being only rich people climbing it). Apparently this far from the only such person to come into the shop as it is a bit of a go to shop for people with more money than sense doing those kinds of things.
I confess, I have seen the discovery show and from that there were clearly a number of people being guided that would have been fine without a guide but happily paid to avoid the hassle and to have someone take charge. Is it immoral to guide these people? I think not, the man from Saudi though. That is completely immoral so I guess it boils down to guiding numpties on everest is not morally defensible
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zBrown
Ice climber
mercenario de merced
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Surfer Mickey Munoz:
"there are no bad waves, only a poor choice of equipment"
Mr. C. W. Jones
"there are no bad climbers, just bad Sherpa selection"
Scarce resources always tend to get rationed somehow. You can't just go do the Ironman event in Hawaii, you gotta qualify, even though the orignal guys would have liked to have had a few more competitors along.
Lottery in 4 (years).
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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And no juggling equipment. Made navigation in a white out difficult.
Tami Tami Tameeeh. You need to get caught up in the latest in gyroscopic navigational juggling equipment. Of course he was juggling, that is how you keep the gyroscope spinning and how he could find his way in a whiteout. Its the latest thing, though only a military model and a sleds over Eveerst model exist.
I don't know how this guy got ahold of a model. Ron,, have you been selling our secret equipment for beer money again?
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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doesnt really mean poop all of us armchairing everest here.
whilst in lhasa people are lighting themselves on fire for freedom for
tibet.
not to mention the good ol usa droid bombing civilians in pakistan.
a couple of frozen climbers and some extra cash for nepal strikes me as a good thing.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 08:10am PT
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Hopefully out of all of this chaos a better state will emerge. A beautiful land, beautiful people....they deserve better.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 30, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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iep's photo upthread has a bold green line. It isn't a route, but there is a route on that part of the mountain, the North Face direct, done by the Russians in 2004. As with their (unrepeated?) 1982 route on the southwest face, and their recent route on K2, one of the hardest on the mountain.
A major hazard was climbers on the northeast ridge throwing off oxygen bottles and other crap, which fell in the Russians' vicinity - until word got around.
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP08/climbing-note-everest
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 23, 2012 - 10:03am PT
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I offer more fuel to support Donini's point.
I just finished watching the Discovery channel's six-part series "Everest" covering a 2006 commercial trip up the Tibet-north side of the hill.
Talk about a gang of misfits. The clients include a 62 year old Frenchman just a few weeks post surgery to remove a cancerous kidney, an ex-Hell's Angels from LA with a lot of metal holding his spine and legs together post motorcycle crashes, a double amputee from New Zealand (who qualifies as the most experienced mountaineer amongst the clients, having lost both legs to frostbite in 1982 while stormbound on NZ's Mt. Cook for 13 days), a Lebanese businessman in pursuit of the "Seven Summits," an American doctor (there is one in every gang of idiots spending a lot of money it seems), an LA jock Fireman, a super fit Danish asthmatic who wants to summit without oxygen.
Did anyone with the cash get turned away by this outfit? Talk about a dream team! (On second thought, I beat a Hollywood producer for the Discovery channel selected this team for dramatic story lines!)
On the mountain, each client has his own Sherpa and the route to the summit has fixed routes and established camps well stocked with oxygen (all courtesy of the Sherpa Army). In fact, a Sherpa team summitted, fixed lines, placed copious numbers of oxygen cycliners so very high clients could "reload" on the descent ABOVE all the "technical" difficulties and established all the camps BEFORE the clients began their push from advanced base camp. Talk about stacking the deck. No wonder the Hell's Angel's biker NEARLY summitted, turning back about 300 meters from top, but only after the leader can forced into pleading, begging and prodding the moron to turn around over the course of approximately two hours before the knucklhead turned around (and then only because another "biker dude" told him to do so. The orders, pleading and begging from the expedition leader wasn't enough to save face, but apparently "Hey Dude, you've done enough; go down" from a fellow biker gave him the cover to descend, manhood uncontestably preserved.
Then on the summit push an up=to 23-person cluster of Chinese, Indian and Turkish climbers created log jams at the ladder/bottleneck both on ascent and descent. The team grumbles and bitches about "incompetent" climbers blocking their way. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.
The team's toll for their combination of summits and near-misses is a kitty litter box of fingers, toes and a few more inches of amputated stumps lost to frostbite. Why the Hell's Angel dude doesn't die is beyond me given his repeated stupidities richly documented throughout, both obvious and subtle.
Like I said, for more reenforcement of Donini's point, catch this documentary made possible in painstaking detail via the helmet-mounted cameras and microphones worn by the Sherpas throughout the ordeal. Of course, the carnival will never stop - until the endless supply of wealthy adventures seekers who thinking climbing Everest is a big deal has been exhauted - not likely soon or ever!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 23, 2012 - 11:19am PT
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On the mountain, each client has his own Sherpa and the route to the summit has fixed routes and established camps well stocked with oxygen (all courtesy of the Sherpa Army).
Then on the summit push a cluster of Chinese, Indian and Turkish climbers create log jams at the ladder/bottleneck both on ascent and descent. The team grumbles and bitches about "incompetent" climbers blocking their way. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.
What a surprise. At least it's not like guiding on El Cap. Wankers jugging up a fixed line, while on top rope. Wooooooooooooooo jugged the big stone! At least on Everest those prize seekers get to do the walking on their own. I don't understand why don't they make a strong helicopter that would take people to the summit for 50,000$. Similar accomplishment, but takes a lot less time.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 23, 2012 - 11:23am PT
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Uhm.. not so fast Vitaly.. Plenty of fixed lines set by sherpa's up there. I'm not even sure you can say the Guides "climb the mountain" anymore.
The Sherpa's may be the only climbers left up there.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 23, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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both spots are sh#t shows
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 23, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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^^^ per Climb2ski
"… I'm not even sure you can say the Guides "climb the mountain" anymore"
This point is well documented in the aforesaid mentioned Discovery channel documentary from the 2006 season.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 07:49am PT
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^^^^ Back in the days when men were still men ..... ^^^^
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Jun 27, 2018 - 10:20am PT
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No crowds on the backside
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 27, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
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Wow... amazing shot. Hopefully Alex H. doesn't get into Alpine stuff..
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jun 27, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
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Not that the Patagonia traverse was very alpine-y. Didn't alex and tommy do that together too?
I agree with the original post.
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Jun 27, 2018 - 09:42pm PT
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Bump for the pic of the Kangshung face on the cover of Mountain 124
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