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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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Dingus
It says something about Tyson and entertainment. It says nothing about boxing. If you want sport - watch Pacman or the Klitschko's.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 12, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Dingus
He is not the only one. An entertaining book is: "Rothstein. The life, times and murder of the criminal genius who fixed the 1919 World Series" (baseball) by David Pietrusza. He also fixed boxing matches. In a way it's an American tradition.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 12, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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Time will tell. I agree. The end is open.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
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Well, here's the thing though...Tyson was the sports figure everyone was excited about BEFORE all the shenanigans started. Before the BabaWawa interview with him and Givens, before the rape and prison sentence.
He was the biggest thing in sport because, at the age of 20, he became the youngest HW champ of all time racking up an absurd string of knockouts as he plowed through the contender ranks, and then proceeded to completely demolish his challengers. It was the injection of new blood that the sport needed since the existing stars were all well past their prime. I mean c'mon, Holmes (great fighter that he was, but WAY past his prime) was the top of the heap at time. The last really good fights had been probably Hearns in the early/mid 80s, first with Leonard then with Hagler.
I remember a super hyped Pay Per View bout, Tyson's first or second title defense, where everyone was pissed becase Mike knocked the guy out in about 90 seconds and they'd all paid $25 for a half-round.
I don't see any of these MMA clowns with their own video game. As a former wrestler, MMA should appeal to me, but it doesn't. At all. Just a bunch of boring meatheads and choke-hold artists. I'd rather watch competitive knitting.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
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Patrick pretty sure that Lights out was the heavyweight champion of the world at the time of that fight. He showed up out of shape and just looking for the paycheck. No one who knows anything about fghting should try to compare a boxer to an wrestler or MMa ot Gung Fu or whatever. It only works if the match is set up allowing both fighter to use all or most of their skills. MMA is the only fighting sport that comes close to this. Lights out actually trained MMA for that fight. He simply did not train long enough or hard enough.
As for the ego thing , you have it, I have it, almost everyone has it. some are better at dealing with it than others. martial artists as a group tend to be kidding themselfs a lot. They put up a good show of being humble but deep down inside they like to impose their will on other humans. Your Mr ono felt pretty darn good after spanking that young pup. That is human nature.
Claiming that the best masters have no ego is a bit like claiming that the best climbers have no ego;)
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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Sorry you've never yet met a master. Those you describe
are charlatans, if they abuse their students and put
on such shows. There are hosts of "senseis" who lead
dojos and academy-like groups, etc. etc., and they're
not anywhere in a league with real masters. Self-confidence
and self-esteem sometimes
are confused with ego. Ono wasn't up against a "pup." Those
were the best competitive karate fighters (mostly the
top Tae Kwon Doers), vying for the
world championship. But, as I said, to try to teach you
something isn't something I am going to succeed at,
and I don't want to try. Can we simply move on?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
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Na, your ego is in the way. You automaticly assume that I was a wanker and not a real martial artist because you are still caught up in the fantasy of the " master" the Master is human, there are no real secrets other than lots of hard work and a positive attitude. My attitude may seem negative to you but it is not really. I just stepped away from the world of martial arts and I am looking at it from the outside in now. I can see a lot of things more clearly than I could when everyone (except for my girlfriend and my sensei)did whatever I asked of them instantly without question.. I never abused that power to my knowlege but it is impossible to not subconciously start believing your own press when everyone treats you like a master...
Recently I rented a netflics CD of a TV show I believe called Fightquest. Coupple of Americans travel the world working out with famous masters for a week and then fighting one of their top guys at the end of the week. It just reminded me of how the system of rank is used to protect the home turf. Not that there is anything wrong with protecting your home turf but make no mistake the odds generaly favor the house. Every single master pretty much killed those guys with a week of brutal drills so that by fight day they were toast. Then the rules of engagement always favored the home team. Karate Dojo how to break the street punk 101 :) In actual practice this move is usually used to make the punk either wise up and turn into a better person or quit without ever haveing to fight. Work them with drills untill they either quit or become good citizens and dutifull obediant martial artists.
There is a ton of good in most dojos. I would recomend the life to anyone. somehow though I did out grow it and somewhere along the way it became clear that most schools are about paying the bills, most masters are about paying the bills and almost everyone has an ego even if they do a real good job of hideing it.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 12, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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This has been an interesting dialogue – far more involved and familiar with “Martial Arts” in ST then I would have thought.
Pat & Tradman: I have seen for a lot of years (going back to 1974) that in America too many dojos will award high ranking belts (1st Dan, 2nd Dan, etc) to anyone who stayed with the school long enough. If you attend long enough we will validate with belts of “distinction” – whether they deserved it are not. I appreciate your honor and commitment Pat and I am truly impressed by the width and depth of your experience. Perhaps Tradman has used some poetic license, but there is a lot of truth to what he says regarding “Traditional” dojos – too rigid, too set and lost in legalistic view of the Martial Arts. I have witnessed real abuse (not my Sensei) that seemed more bent on adoration than development.. Pat I am sure that you are familiar that Tae Kwon Do is the “sport” break off of a larger and more rounded body of Korean Styles. Spend some time with someone proficient at such Hwa Rang Do, Tae Soo Do or Tang Soo Do and you will quickly see the difference.
The need to be honest and to test one’s art outside their own camp has really been necessary for “styles” to be able to be honest on their efficacy and worth. I remember seeing a young man, quite skilled in Traditional Okinawan Karate, coming into a Muay Thai Camp ran by a very “traditional” Thai Kru – Kru being the Thai equivalent of Sensei. When asked about his background the young man started elaborating on his skill and proficiency ( I believe he was a 2nd Dan) The Thai Kru stated empathically in the way that only Thais can “ I don’t care about black belts, got one now hold up my pants. Tell me how many fights you have….That what I need know”. Sadly to say the youngster, limited by the traditions of his system, got worked and turned every way but loose.
I agree with much of what you said Pat. I have seen “Masters” do some amazing things – but many can really get bogged down due to a very legalistic & closed mind set.
DMT: Have you been in the ring, or attended a Saturday Night Smoker or even know what that it is? Have you ever been in anything closely resembling fight or match or contest? I ask to ascertain if your background comes from doing or watching …. After all it is easy to be brave from a distance
Marlow: I think the term you were looking for where individuals jump around, use steroids and is called entertainment is probably WWE (world wrestling entertainment). This is indeed staged and rehearsed but is grossly unjust to call fake. They really do some silly things, but they also do some real amazingly athletic sh*t. Please note that its popularity far exceeds the USA and is quite popular in many countries. In Mexico, they start learning “Lucha Libre Mexicana” at quite a young age – training like gymnasts. What is really amazing is that people do not get hurt more. For what it’s worth Brock Lesnar (don’t know --- that last name kinda sounds Scandinavian) made the statement that WWE has been harder on his body than the UFC…. Just saying. You could always try standing on the bar at your local club, take a couple of shots of liquid courage and then jump off landing flat on your back. Then you can PM from the hospital and tell me how fake that was……
BES1'st: Jose Ramirez just got robbed at the world championships – they were held in country of Azerbaijan. He is a real solid kid, working on his under graduate degree and holding down a job at Starbucks. We have many old school / new school gyms here in Central Valley of which he trains at one. He has 115 wins and has broken all the amateur records that were previously held by the likes of De La Hoya, Mayweather and Mosley. Not only would I but I have seen him……. By the way BES1'st.. You are Bad Boy much respect......I appreciate your Experience and knowledge
Boxing indeed has lost a lot of its luster. All the fight games have way too many gangsters and dirty deeds done dirt cheap. Much of the MMA game seems to be headed in the same way….. I can truly appreciate the beauty and soul that Pat refers to. The amateur game of boxing still has a lot of “innocence” and love of the sport involved. It is also important that folks remember that MMA, as tough as it is, is still sport. I recently saw a fellow quite versed in being in the cage spend some time “sparring” with a Kajukenbo stylist. The man shot on the Kajukenbo man who showed him some “Kaji Love” … he sprawled while simultaneously driving his elbow into the MMA mans L3,4,5 area and just incapacitated him. The difference….. One was doing a “sport” while the other relied back on his training of “defense”
P.S. Much appreciation and respect for any and all who have ever stepped on the mat, or entered the ring or cage or who have kumite …..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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I would think that some of my viewpoint is framed by my need to justify walking away. Much of what I say is also true on many levels though..
I never took a cent for teaching . Did not believe in martial arts for profit yet had our master not been a buisnessman we would most likly not have had a full service health club complete with boxing ring, weight room,all the machines and all that floor space to train in.
You are right about the sport VS defense art thing on one level yet on annother level the sport of MMA has exposed the deficiancy of many of the defense arts.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
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I quit shortly after 911
It was a time to reflect on where your life has been, where it is going and what you want to accomplish or how you want to spend your time left in this life. I climbed 190 days the year I quit the acadamy.
The belt system is mostly about money. It gives the students a fake goal that they can fool themselfs into needing and thus keeps them in class paying dues. It generates a lot of income for the school every time you run shiai (test for rank) every student in that test pays a fee. you usually test a good size group of students at one time generating a good chunk of change. Most accredited systems the individual school has to send a percentage of that fee to the founding master or the organization that they are part of etc.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 12, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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I'm 6"1' with a 76" wingspan and right now I weigh 116 lbs. I wanna shot at Manny Paquio (sp?)
Admittedly I could be in trouble if I let him inside! My Golden Glove record was 12 wins, 5 losses. Lost my first five straight! I fought at welterweight then, age 19.
Seriously though, competing in a sport where it's legal to kick you in the head doesn't bode well for your long term smarts. That and the gay porn aspect of the whole MMA turns me off.
Boxing is the only way to go.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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So, no matter how many times I say I've had a different
experience and live in a different reality than the ones
these other people describe, they tell me I know nothing
and that the world is the way they see it, and that's that.
I'm so glad we settled that. Thanks.
(hey, let's keep our tongues in our cheeks)....
I just watched Shane Carwin get his face pummelled by
Santos, wow, the latter an excellent boxer (trains with
the national boxing team of Brazil...)
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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Pat
If in any way I have offended you I truly & sincerly apologize for this was not my intent....... as I stated earlier your experience is to be much admired and recognized.....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:23am PT
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My grandma met Ali on a plane. She said he was very nice and polite.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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My uncle almost got to meet Ali in the ring but was decisioned by Zora Foley in a 12 round bout...Zora alledgedly had his hands taped in a face-climbing crimp and tore the hell out of said uncles eyes ending his career at 33 with detatched retinas..Foley went on to fight Ali at Madison Square Garden in 70 and was KO'd by the champ in 7 rounds...During the after fight interveiw , Ali let Foley's kids know that their father was a great fighter and was fine after the being knocked out...Foley later died a mysterious death supposedly slipping by his pool and cracking his skull...Mob involvement was rumored..Boxing seems to have trouble shaking it's affiliation with the ever present crime influence..?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 13, 2011 - 03:44am PT
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After Pacquiao - Cotto
"Manny Pacquiao became a seven-weight, seven-time world champion in Las Vegas last night, stripping Miguel Cotto of his defences and the WBO welterweight championship belt with a performance that fixed the Filipino's reputation as one of the finest boxers of this or any other generation.
Kenny Bayless stepped in to end the fight 55 seconds into the 12th round but the contest was effectively over long before then. Out-fought and out-thought Cotto – a proud and strong fighter who is no one's idea of a pushover – was knocked down twice in earlier rounds and as the dénouement approached his ambitions had been reduced to little more than seeking shelter from the storm.
Even by the standards of Pacquiao's two previous visits to the MGM Grand, against Oscar De La Hoya and Ricky Hatton, both of whom he beat decisively, this was a stunning performance.
Perversely, those two wins failed to silence the small but devoted army of Pacquiao-sceptics, who insisted the Filipino had been fortunate to fight both men when they were on the way down. He would not be so lucky with Cotto, they argued. And they were right. He wasn't lucky. He did not need to be. He was simply brilliant.
As expected, the contest started quietly, with both fighters measuring each other's range and intentions. Of the few punches exchanged, Cotto landed the marginally more telling shots. That was enough to convince all three ringside judges to give the Puerto Rican the round, although it didn't take long for any sense of optimism in his corner to evaporate as Pacquiao's hand speed and footwork began to find openings.
In the third round, a two-punch combination dropped Cotto to the floor. The bigger and heavier Cotto’s hope of hurting his opponent with supposedly heavier punching power was a chimera. Indeed, Pacquiao mouthed encouragement to his opponent, egging him on to land a significant blow.
"I wanted to show everybody that I could take a punch; that the talk before the fight that he would out-punch me was wrong," he said afterwards.
Alas for Pacquiao, Cotto could not accommodate his wishes. As went the third, so did the fourth, with the Filipino landing multiple combinations, one which sent Cotto to floor again.
Many experts had assumed the Cotto's supposedly superior strength would make a telling difference in the middle rounds, but instead his largely ineffective efforts served only to highlight the other man's superiority. People knew Pacquiao could land a punch. Now they know he can take one, too.
By the latter rounds, Cotto was reduced to a hunched and cowering shadow of himself, looking less a boxer than a man seeking escape from the debt collector. The crowd, which had been split between the two at the start of the night, was by now firmly in the Pacquiao camp. Las Vegas loves nothing so much as a winner, and to prove the point it booed as Cotto danced his way through 10th and 11th rounds in an attempt to avoid his opponent's blows. It was a needlessly cruel reception for the efforts of a man whose only failing had been to step into the ring with a sublimely talented opponent.
When the end came, it wasn't so much a technical knockout but an act of mercy by Bayless, who had no desire to see Cotto's already battered face take any more punishment."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:12am PT
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Patrick. 7 years after I quit the acadamy I walked into one of our satalite schools. Everyone stopped what they were doing and bowed to me. It was a totaly sureal and strange experience. Not normal by any streatch of the imagination....
I would guess that you are still in a place where you think people bowing to you is normal. I would also guess that you do not teach for free..
The ignorant will laugh at me but the wise will understand...
Cheers, Nick
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 10:24am PT
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all the secrets dancing on my
lips tickle forth wee
ut'rings of dreamless whispers.
these collide against the
mainstream screams,
and a battle is borne in
the literary ring
where no referee
dares to twirl his thunder.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 10:27am PT
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and disaster boxes magic
in life's ring,
noone is trained
we all just fling,
our efforts about
in an attempt
to pacify,
god's foul snout.
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