Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
|
BES1'st
Didn't Michael Spinks start off as a middleweight or was that light hvy. Like Evander Holyfield?
MMA vs. Boxing, etc is an old, old argument …... Truth is technique is in the individual. Western style strikers (boxing) still tend to have the best hands – look at how many camps have Cuban Boxing Coaches, just as the Fairtex Boys (Thais) tend to be the Coaches for learning leg strikes, elbows & knees etc., etc …… MMA has put the spotlight on the need to be a generalist, know or be familiar with all disciplines and not rely on what skill set or technique….
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
|
I do not know how to find the videos and put them up with my slow connection and not knowing exactly which fights to find. I do know that I have seen some amazeing fights on spike where both fighters were super high level strikers as well as the ground and kicking game. Many of the euro fighters are top level kickboxers, many of the latin americans, brazilians etc. olympic level boxers and the americans/canadians olympic level wrestelers. The 1990s days of the street fighter are long gone and you do not stay around these days unless you are an upper tier athlete. I just watched the 2 CD best of 2010 UFC and there were at least 3 fights in that series that were absolutly stunning. George St Piere, Jose Aldo, Anderson silva, Benevites, Tore Egar, etc are all world class athletes with well rounded strikeing and grappeling skills.
|
|
P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
|
BES1'st
My point exactly – are there any MMA strikers who have the hand skill set of an equally ranked boxer? GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon “Bones” Jones are all great talents and both Jones & Silva have showed power ….. But for pure boxing/striking skills …?Another reason why I like Benny “The Jet” Urquidez
I do recall Michael Spinks being Olympic Middle wieght Gold medalist
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:19am PT
|
Ok, I'll chime in just a little. I've practiced and taught karate
for some 39 years (still a beginner, as we say). I've trained with
Judo black belts, jujitsu black belts, boxers, aikido black belts,
have trained with and fought tae won do black belts... I am modestly
adept at a range of disciplines. I was a first string wrestler in
high school but later trained in wrestling with a national champion.
I guess I'm only saying I'm not one-dimensional. I'm a mere
tyro compared to my master seniors...
I love boxing. I love MMA, the UFC, I love Olympic wrestling (some
of the UFC fighters have done very well at wrestling, such as
won medals in the Olympics and won national titles at University
level wrestling), and there is every reason to appreciate
all the true artists of whatever discipline. Just
a few random, mostly disconnected thoughts. I always find it a little
unfair when an MMA fighter beats a boxer, and everyone declares that
clearly MMA (mixed martial arts) are superior to boxing. The only way
for one to know if he or she is as good at boxing as another... is to box.
Get in the ring, play by the rules of boxing. Few of the MMA fighters
could defeat the good boxers. But then many boxers would be lost
in such a different environment as the MMA. If the question is who
is better in an all around brawl, no holds barred, well a boxer may
be taken by suprise by a simple leg takedown (as was that boxer when
Randy Couturre simply took him down). That boxer seemed utterly slow
to me, and I can tell you someone like Mohammed Ali would not be so
inclined to simply let someone take him down. There are other
boxers who have training in the martial arts, but they never seem
to want to get out of the ring and into the cage. Actually Ali had a few
opportunities to spar with some experts in various disciplines. It was
always some kind of strange situation where the different styles just
didn't make much sense together.
Yes, you have to know what you're watching. There are many very fine
athletes in MMA, who train like madmen daily. St. Pierre, Michida....
Also in boxing. There are fine athletes in all disciples, at the top
levels. It always makes me a bit mad when the commentator at the UFC
says, well, so and so is just simply the best fighter in the world.
He doesn't know that or anything close to it, and most of those MMA
fighters would be the first to tell you they train with people
who can kick their arse. St. Pierre, for example, trains with a French
fellow who can take St. Pierre apart... on any day.
There are martial artists who are very quiet, humble people who have
trained so hard all their lives and have such amazing gifts it's beyond
most to have the perception to perceive such ability and understand
it. Tsutomu Ohshima, for example, or his colleague Mr. Ono. They used
to invite Mr. Ono to the karate/tae kwon do world championships, and
anyone who even tried to throw a kick simply got his lower leg broken
with an incredibly powerful downblock. Most of the MMA champions, by
comparison, are relative amateurs -- even if they are phenomenal athletes.
Most of these really high level people, though, don't want to compete.
Mr. Ohshima was offerred a million dollars to play the roll of Mr. Miagi
in the original Karate Kid (Pat Morita took the part, who knows no
karate whatever). Mr. Ohshima simply declined, as he is too humble and
private. Some of this Hollywood stuff and TV entertainment (UFC included)
goes against the deeeper goals of these artists. I mean, at
the heart of karate, for example, is the idea that it is the perfection
of the self through the perfection of the art. Some of these masters
are so very kind, and generous, such beauty of spirit. They are
truly humble yet have all the skills to be big egoists. Mr. Ohshima
did a demonstration one year where he was surrounded by a number of
big, tall, tough black belts, and he was only using his little finger
to poke them in certain vital-point pressure spots, such as above
the eye, and he could put them all in a stupor in seconds, without
hurting any of them. What he could (I say "could") do to some of
these MMA brawlers (even if they are fantastic athletes) is beyond
the comprehension of most. But if one gets all huffed
up and angry and self-loving, full of conceit and hatred for the
opponent, etc. etc., well, that just isn't the style of these higher
level masters. That, rather, is the hype and promotion of that world.
There are masters in, say, Japan... for example, archers who can sit
in a kneeling position, with eyes not even on the target, and launch
a quick volley of arrows that go right to the exact center of the
target. There are martial artists who have that kind of ability. Never
do they have any interest in mainstream competition, such as the
UFC. From my way of thinking, it's best just to appreciate good
athletes but not get too worked up about all the hype (which in large
part is to stir up interest and bring in paying viewers). Part of the
success of the UFC is that they have done a far more effective job
at the hype game, and all that blood and guts, all that rivalry, and
such seem to appeal to a very large demographic. In olden days, the
cameras were so far away from the ring, boxing was tough to watch. One
could hardly see anything. Now, as the cameras get better and we
have High Definition and such, it seems boxing has continued to stay
somewhat in that lesser place where a bout is not well presented,
not brought in to view in clear, close-up detail. In the UFC, TV viewers
are taken right inside the cuts... Boxing needs somewhat to re-invent
itself.
No one has to agree with me on anything, and I am not trying
to push my views on anyone. Just some thoughts.... based on
a little bit of experience....
|
|
Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:40am PT
|
Interesting and good points, Patrick:
Never
do they have any interest in mainstream competition,
This reminds me of the whole issue of trying to get climbing into the Olympics. Sounds good on the surface, but then you realize that the greatest achievments in climbing will never be in the competitive arena.
The levels of mastery such as those realized by the likes of Lynn Hill, Bachar, Huber, and Sharma and a few others are in a whole different (higher) realm of human experience than could ever come about through competition.
The spotlight kills the soul of the thing . . .
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 01:22am PT
|
That Argentinenan looks deadly with that left coming out of nowhere...Reminiscent of Marciano...?
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:18am PT
|
Patric. I think you are way off base with a lot of that stuff. 4th dan speaking. Traditional martial arts is big set up. the master never Ever spars someone dangerous on equal terms. You always have the power of rank to set the situation up. That means that you wear the problem guy out with drills before you sic your top guy on him and if he ever does get as far as the master he is toast because he has just fought the 3 best guys in the dojo. more likly he never gets to spar the master but the master gets to use him in demmo's where it is always a setup. you get to throw a predetermined attack and master gets to toss you arround and make you look stupid with a technique that often would not work against a real fighter who was not playing by the rules. There are exceptions to this rule but they are prety rare. The humble act is also and act. Most of these guys have ego's the size of battleships. It is wicked hard not to when every time you walk into the dojo 40 people stop what they are doing, kneel down on the floor and press their forehead into the matt.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:24am PT
|
Of course boxers have better hands than most MMA guys. they are supposed to just like tae kwon do guys have better kicks than most other martial arts guys. Just saying that boxing is so contrived because without the reff there it turnes into a hugging match. that is the natural progression of a fight. In boxinf it is simply a stalling move. In MMA when they hugg they are still fighting..
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
|
Trad, you clearly have a very different experience than mine. No master
worthy of the name would play such ego games. That's part of the
definition, as I see it. Absolutely there are many phoney masters about,
and people talk about how high they are ranked. I had a fellow come
into my dojo who said he had "finished his training in New York" and
was approaching fifth dan, or some such. I welcomed him, and it took
very little on my part to dispense with him in sparring. His kata
wasn't even brown belt level in any true art. One day in
Boulder some many years ago I was working out in the field house and
came across a couple of third dan Tae Kwon Do-ers. We hit it off, and
they asked me to share with them some of my approach. We quickly realized
that their kicks weren't worth much. They said they learned more
in those few days than in their entire training. That sounds immodest,
and I don't mean it to be. I'm not tough, on any relative level.
But many people practice in a kind of sterile environment where they
get quite proficient, form-wise, but have none of that "real" thing.
At least in the UFC, it's pretty real. They are trying to kill each
other. But, back to Tae Kwon do, that is another misconception, that
Tae Kwon Do kicks are better than other arts. In some cases it's true.
I think the Tae Kwon Do-ers really focus, in general, more on flexibility
than do many other martial artists. And that helps. But they often lack
other things, such as a deeper understanding of stance, alignment, etc.
I've had countless black belts in Tae Kwon Do come to visit my dojo,
and I see the same kinds of problems in general across the board. Of
course there are some really high level people, but the masses tend
to be a little more choreographed than real. I met a girl, and we
dated for a while, and she has/had her own dojo, a third dan in Tae
Kwon Do. She would have me come and teach her class. Her form was lovely
and simply very smooth and graceful but not effective in a
real sort of way. That fellow I spoke of, Mr. Ono, didn't need a kick
to defeat anyone he wanted to with hand blocks, and any kick they
wanted to try on him. Those were people vying for the world
championship. The scenarios you describe exist, I'm sure,
but not with the people I have mentioined. They are indeed humble,
the way John Gill is humble... or at least there is a kind of
comparison...
About boxing, and the hugging/clinch thing. Yes in boxing fighters
often tie up. Sometimes it's an opportunity to rest, and both sort
of agree to do it. And yes when MMA fighters tie up there is real
danger there, from knee strikes, for example, or the quick elbow.
But they also find ways to mutually rest. In both practices, the
ref is trained to break the clinch so that they can keep at the
action (or what the mainstream viewer, the people paying, see as
the actioin). In the "cage," they stand them up or bring them out in
the middle, away from the fence... In both areas it can deteriorate
to clinch-like exhaustion. Cardio conditioning is a big factor
in both practices. But it's a not-so-helpful generalization to
suggest it can be so simplified, in terms of our explanation of
things. Every fight is different, every fighter different....
Some of it's strategy. For example, Ali, when up against Foreman,
did his famous/infamous rope-a-dope, where he laid back while
George punched himself out... Some of the most interesting fights
have been displays of these kinds of strategies, though many
viewers wouldn't have a clue what was really going on... and might
thing there was no action....
As I said, I don't intend to try to force my thinking
on you or anyone.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
|
Patrick. I was full blown martial artist for 28 years. full time for 22 of those. Been to countless seminars and visited many dojos taught thousands of classes. The ego thing is there and it is real even when they seem super nice. never met a master yet who did not think that their style was the best and their school the best. The orientals were always the worst in that regard always burning you out with drills and then using you for demos where you have no choice but to give sensei the predetermined attack so he can body slam you. many of those techniques work great on low level trained fighters (trained fighters are predictable) but do not work on untrained crazies (unpredictable) or high level trained fighters that do not go along with your scenario. MMa certainly opened a few eyes in that regard.
I hear you on the whole resting thing. I always hated it when the reff or your coach/sensei would tell you to pick it up and work as the paceing yourself game is important.
Never had any troubble with Tae Kwon do guys. They are usually one demensional. just saying that they have good things to offer. take what is good from many different styles and you can end up with a well rounded system. That certainly means western boxing hands.
One of our sho dans was playing in the rec center with an olympic tae kuan do black belt. Joe got annoyed after the 2nd or 3rd kick to the head and bull rushed the guy, put him up against the wall and banged him up good with a nice mix of high school wresteling and dirty boxing. ( this was long before MMA) It does pay to be well rounded and not stuck in your own system.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
|
PS, if you buddy Mr Ono is so damn humble why is he breaking peoples arms?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
|
Strong handshake, maybe?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
|
Rocky could beat all of them.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
|
MMA sucks.
Boxing's decline is IMO, due to lack of a dominant, charismatic heavyweight since about late 1990s. The Klitschko clan are boring, just big f*#kers with a long reach and solid technical skills. Lennox Lewis was past his prime when he reached the top, Holyfield was past his prime after Bowe and fighting above his natural class anyway. There hasn't been an imagination-seizing heavyweight since Tyson in his prime.
Watch the Gatti-Ward fights and tell me boxing is boring.
MMA is about half rolling around on the ground doing nothing. Add some Mtn Dew EXTREME branding and a pink mohawk and the kidz will watch it.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
|
I think that part of the problem is that all the big fights went to pay per view. They made more money, but they reduced their viewership.
I also agree about there not being any great heavyweights, though I like the lower weight classes better.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
|
I believe Pay Per Veiw is 60 bucks a pop...? What a bargain..!
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
|
Trad,
You seem to continue to insist that your world is
how mine must also be. I mean, as though, how could it not be?
Mr. Ono could literally kill just about anyone, but to give them a
little love tap to the shin, in response to a kick... well, sorry
if his technique was so good it broke that leg. When you have
practiced as many decades as he and done as many millions of
techniques as he, you get powerful. He never really intended
to be there and was there only because they invited him and
really kind of pressured him to come. He obliged, out of courtesy.
But yes he is humble. He would tell you over and over again
how long he's practiced or how adept he is. Individuals
such as Ono, Sadahara (three time national champion of Japan)...
could have made millions, had they wanted
to capitalize on their ability. But it was about so
much more. Your insistence that Ono isn't humble,
having never met him, and that no master is, in your
experience, seems a bit all-encompassing and seems simply
to imposes your personal experience on the
rest of the world. It seems a strange (however revealing) place
in which to try to share a few thoughts and have a little
friendly communication. You simply shut all that down, at which
point I realize I don't wish to argue any of it with you.
I think it best you carry on with your view, please do, if also
because this is pretty much thread drift anyway.
How about another question for people. Did anyone ever hear of that
"Lights Out" guy before he made an ass of himself with Randy C.?
I don't follow boxing very deeply, for sure, but I do remember
quite a few of the more prominent names. Suddenly they were
advertising Lights Out as one of the greatest, best boxers of all time.
It almost sounded like a setup. I mean, put someone in there
who can throw a little bit of a punch but wouldn't see a takedown
coming if his life depended on it... (am I being too hard on
Lights Out?). Did he even throw a single punch? Quite a few fighters
have had their own lights turned off by reaching forward with
the intent of a takedown, at which point a good puncher
or kicker has nailed him (in the same style Anderson Sylva nailed
that last opponent on the chin with a basic front kick). Randy
was knocked out by Machida with that same front kick to the chin,
a short time after his (Randy's) fight with Lights Out.... (must
be some kind of strange irony there...?)
|
|
Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
|
Pay per view. I wouldn't pay that much to watch any of these fights
and simply wait until that evening when I can get online and
either see all the results detailed or, as is often the case,
watch the fights online (sometimes it takes a day for them
to post the fights, but a few times
they have been posted later the same evening).
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
|
The Klitschko's are highly skilled and extremely well trained athletes.
I would like to see Pacman up against Mayweather. I don't know what Mayweather's problem is. I am quite sure he has got a chance if not a big one.
If you want entertainment - see the Tyson film. The film is excellent on it's own terms.
Boxing is sport. Maybe Americans of today only want entertainment?
What is the name of the American "entertainment-sport" where big monsters on dope or postdope are jumping and falling all around the ring.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
|
boxing has ZERO appeal to the general public and this has been the case for decades now.
So how do you reconcile Mike Tyson being maybe the most recognizable sports figure for a decade? The ongoing popularity of boxing based movies (Million Dollar Baby - best picture, The Fighter)?
People STILL love to see Mike (because he's a complete trainwreck), but "zero appeal"? I don't see it.
MMA is a flash in the pan, just like kickboxing was in the 1980s. Lloyd Dobler: "kickboxing sir. It's the sport of the future"
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!