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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Boxing is history... they only have one household name that means anything. Manny Pacheao, even then who cares.. MMA rules ;)
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Wow, that Martinez has an unorthodox stance and movement. He must be hard to hit. Plus, he obviously has some power. Dude never saw that one coming!
I used to love watching Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler go at it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcAZ7gnRh4o
I'm not sure if Martinez could have stood up to either one of these guys, though.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Prediction: Within ten years, the bodies that govern sport in all developed countries will prohibit behaviour and actions that lead to concussions and head injuries. In other words, boxing and related "sports" will be banned, or only permitted with a much higher level of head protection. Likewise ice hockey, football (headers), American football, and others.
The first to go will be boxing, given that it's essentially unsafe for anyone to participate in.
The interesting question being that there seems to be an innate human urge toward such things, both participating and watching. So what happens to it?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Those Klitschko brothers are pretty good plus they're pretty classy guys from
what I've seen. They both speak about 5 languages and Vladimir is a pretty
fair chess player apparently.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 10, 2011 - 01:13am PT
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Huge boxing fan. Back when I was in shape, I actually had a doctor (!) recommend I become a boxer. wtf. Best book on boxing I ever read was "On Boxing" by Joyce Carol Oates. Absolute must-read for anyone interested in this brutal topic. Oh, and you gotta see the movie "Tyson."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:19am PT
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I was a huge boxing fan even BINTD when I was a full blown martial arts nut, 4th dan teaching in a good sized acadamy. We trained guys for golden gloves and even had a few pro boxers fighting out of our school. Kick boxing was so rare that you had to travel hundreds to thousands of miles to compete. Tword the later years of my involvment UFC was a big influence and suddenly everyone was rolling on the matt learning skills that mostly had been completly ignored. My cousin was a 5th dan at the time out of Boston/franklin MA Ueichi RYU and he would basicly panic when I threw him to the ground. My school has always been more rounded than most but we really amped up the ground game within about ten min of watching the first ultimate fighting video. We were already offering a traditional Aki Jitsu class and it morphed rapidly. One of the first thing that I taught beginner students was how to fall properly. When I started out in Okinawin Katate even the black belts were barely proficiant in falling.
These days when I watch a boxing match it really sinks home how contrived boxing is and how much the reff is directly involved in the match by breaking up the clinch. Left their own devices boxing matches turn into exceptionaly boreing and pathetic hugging matches. MMA takes the natural progression of a clinch to a knee in the face or a body slam.
I had TV for a few years (had it turned off after the last Super Bowl) and it was stunning the ammount of MMA available vs Boxing. No more ESPN tuesday Night boxing, pretty much no boxing available to watch except the 3 pay per view events per year. You could find MMA to watch every day. Also there was big promotion for pay per view MMA events almost every month.
Boxing is pretty much on death door. MMA has the better athlets and the more revalant format.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 10, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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MMA is fun to watch until they lie down and hold each other tightly pretending they hate each other..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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There is the ocasional dull MMA fight but nothing even close to the ratio of dull boxing matches.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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Too bad i am on dial up reily. Ali and frazier was awsome. watched em both many times but there are dozens of MMA fight of the nights that rival that and often surpass it. Especially if you actually understand what is going on.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
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There is also a reason why boxing is fadeing away.... It's called MMA :)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 10, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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My guess is that one of the main reasons for the decline of interest in boxing in America is a couple of incredibly strong russians.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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Interesting. BINTD when i as boxing i never had a problem not throwing elbows, Knees, shins etc. Never once did i breake the rules of whatever sport that i was fighting. Somehow i was able to switch gears and program my brain/ machine to zone into the fight with the correct rules of engagement. watching boxing on the otherhad I go nuts! the fat slow guy clinchesand i am screaming at the other guy to throw a knee to the head... Funny how in MMA you almost NEVER see a fat slow guy anymore.. Only one I can think of Is Roy Nelson.. Oh and James Tony ;) But he has most likly given up the game after finding out that fat and slow does not cut it in the big leagues....
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 10, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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Yeah, still my guess.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 10, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
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My guess is that one of the main reasons for the decline of interest in boxing in America is a couple of incredibly strong russians.
THEY ARE NOT RUSSIANS!!!!!!! Ukrainians...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 10, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Pardon me, I'm Swedish. From now on they are Ukranians.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
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Never heard of them and probobly never will unless they go into the UFC
;)
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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BES1'st
Didn't Michael Spinks start off as a middleweight or was that light hvy. Like Evander Holyfield?
MMA vs. Boxing, etc is an old, old argument …... Truth is technique is in the individual. Western style strikers (boxing) still tend to have the best hands – look at how many camps have Cuban Boxing Coaches, just as the Fairtex Boys (Thais) tend to be the Coaches for learning leg strikes, elbows & knees etc., etc …… MMA has put the spotlight on the need to be a generalist, know or be familiar with all disciplines and not rely on what skill set or technique….
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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I do not know how to find the videos and put them up with my slow connection and not knowing exactly which fights to find. I do know that I have seen some amazeing fights on spike where both fighters were super high level strikers as well as the ground and kicking game. Many of the euro fighters are top level kickboxers, many of the latin americans, brazilians etc. olympic level boxers and the americans/canadians olympic level wrestelers. The 1990s days of the street fighter are long gone and you do not stay around these days unless you are an upper tier athlete. I just watched the 2 CD best of 2010 UFC and there were at least 3 fights in that series that were absolutly stunning. George St Piere, Jose Aldo, Anderson silva, Benevites, Tore Egar, etc are all world class athletes with well rounded strikeing and grappeling skills.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 10, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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BES1'st
My point exactly – are there any MMA strikers who have the hand skill set of an equally ranked boxer? GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon “Bones” Jones are all great talents and both Jones & Silva have showed power ….. But for pure boxing/striking skills …?Another reason why I like Benny “The Jet” Urquidez
I do recall Michael Spinks being Olympic Middle wieght Gold medalist
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 11, 2011 - 12:19am PT
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Ok, I'll chime in just a little. I've practiced and taught karate
for some 39 years (still a beginner, as we say). I've trained with
Judo black belts, jujitsu black belts, boxers, aikido black belts,
have trained with and fought tae won do black belts... I am modestly
adept at a range of disciplines. I was a first string wrestler in
high school but later trained in wrestling with a national champion.
I guess I'm only saying I'm not one-dimensional. I'm a mere
tyro compared to my master seniors...
I love boxing. I love MMA, the UFC, I love Olympic wrestling (some
of the UFC fighters have done very well at wrestling, such as
won medals in the Olympics and won national titles at University
level wrestling), and there is every reason to appreciate
all the true artists of whatever discipline. Just
a few random, mostly disconnected thoughts. I always find it a little
unfair when an MMA fighter beats a boxer, and everyone declares that
clearly MMA (mixed martial arts) are superior to boxing. The only way
for one to know if he or she is as good at boxing as another... is to box.
Get in the ring, play by the rules of boxing. Few of the MMA fighters
could defeat the good boxers. But then many boxers would be lost
in such a different environment as the MMA. If the question is who
is better in an all around brawl, no holds barred, well a boxer may
be taken by suprise by a simple leg takedown (as was that boxer when
Randy Couturre simply took him down). That boxer seemed utterly slow
to me, and I can tell you someone like Mohammed Ali would not be so
inclined to simply let someone take him down. There are other
boxers who have training in the martial arts, but they never seem
to want to get out of the ring and into the cage. Actually Ali had a few
opportunities to spar with some experts in various disciplines. It was
always some kind of strange situation where the different styles just
didn't make much sense together.
Yes, you have to know what you're watching. There are many very fine
athletes in MMA, who train like madmen daily. St. Pierre, Michida....
Also in boxing. There are fine athletes in all disciples, at the top
levels. It always makes me a bit mad when the commentator at the UFC
says, well, so and so is just simply the best fighter in the world.
He doesn't know that or anything close to it, and most of those MMA
fighters would be the first to tell you they train with people
who can kick their arse. St. Pierre, for example, trains with a French
fellow who can take St. Pierre apart... on any day.
There are martial artists who are very quiet, humble people who have
trained so hard all their lives and have such amazing gifts it's beyond
most to have the perception to perceive such ability and understand
it. Tsutomu Ohshima, for example, or his colleague Mr. Ono. They used
to invite Mr. Ono to the karate/tae kwon do world championships, and
anyone who even tried to throw a kick simply got his lower leg broken
with an incredibly powerful downblock. Most of the MMA champions, by
comparison, are relative amateurs -- even if they are phenomenal athletes.
Most of these really high level people, though, don't want to compete.
Mr. Ohshima was offerred a million dollars to play the roll of Mr. Miagi
in the original Karate Kid (Pat Morita took the part, who knows no
karate whatever). Mr. Ohshima simply declined, as he is too humble and
private. Some of this Hollywood stuff and TV entertainment (UFC included)
goes against the deeeper goals of these artists. I mean, at
the heart of karate, for example, is the idea that it is the perfection
of the self through the perfection of the art. Some of these masters
are so very kind, and generous, such beauty of spirit. They are
truly humble yet have all the skills to be big egoists. Mr. Ohshima
did a demonstration one year where he was surrounded by a number of
big, tall, tough black belts, and he was only using his little finger
to poke them in certain vital-point pressure spots, such as above
the eye, and he could put them all in a stupor in seconds, without
hurting any of them. What he could (I say "could") do to some of
these MMA brawlers (even if they are fantastic athletes) is beyond
the comprehension of most. But if one gets all huffed
up and angry and self-loving, full of conceit and hatred for the
opponent, etc. etc., well, that just isn't the style of these higher
level masters. That, rather, is the hype and promotion of that world.
There are masters in, say, Japan... for example, archers who can sit
in a kneeling position, with eyes not even on the target, and launch
a quick volley of arrows that go right to the exact center of the
target. There are martial artists who have that kind of ability. Never
do they have any interest in mainstream competition, such as the
UFC. From my way of thinking, it's best just to appreciate good
athletes but not get too worked up about all the hype (which in large
part is to stir up interest and bring in paying viewers). Part of the
success of the UFC is that they have done a far more effective job
at the hype game, and all that blood and guts, all that rivalry, and
such seem to appeal to a very large demographic. In olden days, the
cameras were so far away from the ring, boxing was tough to watch. One
could hardly see anything. Now, as the cameras get better and we
have High Definition and such, it seems boxing has continued to stay
somewhat in that lesser place where a bout is not well presented,
not brought in to view in clear, close-up detail. In the UFC, TV viewers
are taken right inside the cuts... Boxing needs somewhat to re-invent
itself.
No one has to agree with me on anything, and I am not trying
to push my views on anyone. Just some thoughts.... based on
a little bit of experience....
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Oct 11, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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Interesting and good points, Patrick:
Never
do they have any interest in mainstream competition,
This reminds me of the whole issue of trying to get climbing into the Olympics. Sounds good on the surface, but then you realize that the greatest achievments in climbing will never be in the competitive arena.
The levels of mastery such as those realized by the likes of Lynn Hill, Bachar, Huber, and Sharma and a few others are in a whole different (higher) realm of human experience than could ever come about through competition.
The spotlight kills the soul of the thing . . .
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 11, 2011 - 01:22am PT
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That Argentinenan looks deadly with that left coming out of nowhere...Reminiscent of Marciano...?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 11, 2011 - 06:18am PT
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Patric. I think you are way off base with a lot of that stuff. 4th dan speaking. Traditional martial arts is big set up. the master never Ever spars someone dangerous on equal terms. You always have the power of rank to set the situation up. That means that you wear the problem guy out with drills before you sic your top guy on him and if he ever does get as far as the master he is toast because he has just fought the 3 best guys in the dojo. more likly he never gets to spar the master but the master gets to use him in demmo's where it is always a setup. you get to throw a predetermined attack and master gets to toss you arround and make you look stupid with a technique that often would not work against a real fighter who was not playing by the rules. There are exceptions to this rule but they are prety rare. The humble act is also and act. Most of these guys have ego's the size of battleships. It is wicked hard not to when every time you walk into the dojo 40 people stop what they are doing, kneel down on the floor and press their forehead into the matt.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 11, 2011 - 06:24am PT
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Of course boxers have better hands than most MMA guys. they are supposed to just like tae kwon do guys have better kicks than most other martial arts guys. Just saying that boxing is so contrived because without the reff there it turnes into a hugging match. that is the natural progression of a fight. In boxinf it is simply a stalling move. In MMA when they hugg they are still fighting..
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 11, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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Trad, you clearly have a very different experience than mine. No master
worthy of the name would play such ego games. That's part of the
definition, as I see it. Absolutely there are many phoney masters about,
and people talk about how high they are ranked. I had a fellow come
into my dojo who said he had "finished his training in New York" and
was approaching fifth dan, or some such. I welcomed him, and it took
very little on my part to dispense with him in sparring. His kata
wasn't even brown belt level in any true art. One day in
Boulder some many years ago I was working out in the field house and
came across a couple of third dan Tae Kwon Do-ers. We hit it off, and
they asked me to share with them some of my approach. We quickly realized
that their kicks weren't worth much. They said they learned more
in those few days than in their entire training. That sounds immodest,
and I don't mean it to be. I'm not tough, on any relative level.
But many people practice in a kind of sterile environment where they
get quite proficient, form-wise, but have none of that "real" thing.
At least in the UFC, it's pretty real. They are trying to kill each
other. But, back to Tae Kwon do, that is another misconception, that
Tae Kwon Do kicks are better than other arts. In some cases it's true.
I think the Tae Kwon Do-ers really focus, in general, more on flexibility
than do many other martial artists. And that helps. But they often lack
other things, such as a deeper understanding of stance, alignment, etc.
I've had countless black belts in Tae Kwon Do come to visit my dojo,
and I see the same kinds of problems in general across the board. Of
course there are some really high level people, but the masses tend
to be a little more choreographed than real. I met a girl, and we
dated for a while, and she has/had her own dojo, a third dan in Tae
Kwon Do. She would have me come and teach her class. Her form was lovely
and simply very smooth and graceful but not effective in a
real sort of way. That fellow I spoke of, Mr. Ono, didn't need a kick
to defeat anyone he wanted to with hand blocks, and any kick they
wanted to try on him. Those were people vying for the world
championship. The scenarios you describe exist, I'm sure,
but not with the people I have mentioined. They are indeed humble,
the way John Gill is humble... or at least there is a kind of
comparison...
About boxing, and the hugging/clinch thing. Yes in boxing fighters
often tie up. Sometimes it's an opportunity to rest, and both sort
of agree to do it. And yes when MMA fighters tie up there is real
danger there, from knee strikes, for example, or the quick elbow.
But they also find ways to mutually rest. In both practices, the
ref is trained to break the clinch so that they can keep at the
action (or what the mainstream viewer, the people paying, see as
the actioin). In the "cage," they stand them up or bring them out in
the middle, away from the fence... In both areas it can deteriorate
to clinch-like exhaustion. Cardio conditioning is a big factor
in both practices. But it's a not-so-helpful generalization to
suggest it can be so simplified, in terms of our explanation of
things. Every fight is different, every fighter different....
Some of it's strategy. For example, Ali, when up against Foreman,
did his famous/infamous rope-a-dope, where he laid back while
George punched himself out... Some of the most interesting fights
have been displays of these kinds of strategies, though many
viewers wouldn't have a clue what was really going on... and might
thing there was no action....
As I said, I don't intend to try to force my thinking
on you or anyone.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 11, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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Patrick. I was full blown martial artist for 28 years. full time for 22 of those. Been to countless seminars and visited many dojos taught thousands of classes. The ego thing is there and it is real even when they seem super nice. never met a master yet who did not think that their style was the best and their school the best. The orientals were always the worst in that regard always burning you out with drills and then using you for demos where you have no choice but to give sensei the predetermined attack so he can body slam you. many of those techniques work great on low level trained fighters (trained fighters are predictable) but do not work on untrained crazies (unpredictable) or high level trained fighters that do not go along with your scenario. MMa certainly opened a few eyes in that regard.
I hear you on the whole resting thing. I always hated it when the reff or your coach/sensei would tell you to pick it up and work as the paceing yourself game is important.
Never had any troubble with Tae Kwon do guys. They are usually one demensional. just saying that they have good things to offer. take what is good from many different styles and you can end up with a well rounded system. That certainly means western boxing hands.
One of our sho dans was playing in the rec center with an olympic tae kuan do black belt. Joe got annoyed after the 2nd or 3rd kick to the head and bull rushed the guy, put him up against the wall and banged him up good with a nice mix of high school wresteling and dirty boxing. ( this was long before MMA) It does pay to be well rounded and not stuck in your own system.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 11, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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PS, if you buddy Mr Ono is so damn humble why is he breaking peoples arms?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
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Strong handshake, maybe?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
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Rocky could beat all of them.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 11, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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MMA sucks.
Boxing's decline is IMO, due to lack of a dominant, charismatic heavyweight since about late 1990s. The Klitschko clan are boring, just big f*#kers with a long reach and solid technical skills. Lennox Lewis was past his prime when he reached the top, Holyfield was past his prime after Bowe and fighting above his natural class anyway. There hasn't been an imagination-seizing heavyweight since Tyson in his prime.
Watch the Gatti-Ward fights and tell me boxing is boring.
MMA is about half rolling around on the ground doing nothing. Add some Mtn Dew EXTREME branding and a pink mohawk and the kidz will watch it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 11, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
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I think that part of the problem is that all the big fights went to pay per view. They made more money, but they reduced their viewership.
I also agree about there not being any great heavyweights, though I like the lower weight classes better.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 11, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
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I believe Pay Per Veiw is 60 bucks a pop...? What a bargain..!
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
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Trad,
You seem to continue to insist that your world is
how mine must also be. I mean, as though, how could it not be?
Mr. Ono could literally kill just about anyone, but to give them a
little love tap to the shin, in response to a kick... well, sorry
if his technique was so good it broke that leg. When you have
practiced as many decades as he and done as many millions of
techniques as he, you get powerful. He never really intended
to be there and was there only because they invited him and
really kind of pressured him to come. He obliged, out of courtesy.
But yes he is humble. He would tell you over and over again
how long he's practiced or how adept he is. Individuals
such as Ono, Sadahara (three time national champion of Japan)...
could have made millions, had they wanted
to capitalize on their ability. But it was about so
much more. Your insistence that Ono isn't humble,
having never met him, and that no master is, in your
experience, seems a bit all-encompassing and seems simply
to imposes your personal experience on the
rest of the world. It seems a strange (however revealing) place
in which to try to share a few thoughts and have a little
friendly communication. You simply shut all that down, at which
point I realize I don't wish to argue any of it with you.
I think it best you carry on with your view, please do, if also
because this is pretty much thread drift anyway.
How about another question for people. Did anyone ever hear of that
"Lights Out" guy before he made an ass of himself with Randy C.?
I don't follow boxing very deeply, for sure, but I do remember
quite a few of the more prominent names. Suddenly they were
advertising Lights Out as one of the greatest, best boxers of all time.
It almost sounded like a setup. I mean, put someone in there
who can throw a little bit of a punch but wouldn't see a takedown
coming if his life depended on it... (am I being too hard on
Lights Out?). Did he even throw a single punch? Quite a few fighters
have had their own lights turned off by reaching forward with
the intent of a takedown, at which point a good puncher
or kicker has nailed him (in the same style Anderson Sylva nailed
that last opponent on the chin with a basic front kick). Randy
was knocked out by Machida with that same front kick to the chin,
a short time after his (Randy's) fight with Lights Out.... (must
be some kind of strange irony there...?)
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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Pay per view. I wouldn't pay that much to watch any of these fights
and simply wait until that evening when I can get online and
either see all the results detailed or, as is often the case,
watch the fights online (sometimes it takes a day for them
to post the fights, but a few times
they have been posted later the same evening).
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
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The Klitschko's are highly skilled and extremely well trained athletes.
I would like to see Pacman up against Mayweather. I don't know what Mayweather's problem is. I am quite sure he has got a chance if not a big one.
If you want entertainment - see the Tyson film. The film is excellent on it's own terms.
Boxing is sport. Maybe Americans of today only want entertainment?
What is the name of the American "entertainment-sport" where big monsters on dope or postdope are jumping and falling all around the ring.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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boxing has ZERO appeal to the general public and this has been the case for decades now.
So how do you reconcile Mike Tyson being maybe the most recognizable sports figure for a decade? The ongoing popularity of boxing based movies (Million Dollar Baby - best picture, The Fighter)?
People STILL love to see Mike (because he's a complete trainwreck), but "zero appeal"? I don't see it.
MMA is a flash in the pan, just like kickboxing was in the 1980s. Lloyd Dobler: "kickboxing sir. It's the sport of the future"
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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Dingus
It says something about Tyson and entertainment. It says nothing about boxing. If you want sport - watch Pacman or the Klitschko's.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 12, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Dingus
He is not the only one. An entertaining book is: "Rothstein. The life, times and murder of the criminal genius who fixed the 1919 World Series" (baseball) by David Pietrusza. He also fixed boxing matches. In a way it's an American tradition.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 12, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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Time will tell. I agree. The end is open.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
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Well, here's the thing though...Tyson was the sports figure everyone was excited about BEFORE all the shenanigans started. Before the BabaWawa interview with him and Givens, before the rape and prison sentence.
He was the biggest thing in sport because, at the age of 20, he became the youngest HW champ of all time racking up an absurd string of knockouts as he plowed through the contender ranks, and then proceeded to completely demolish his challengers. It was the injection of new blood that the sport needed since the existing stars were all well past their prime. I mean c'mon, Holmes (great fighter that he was, but WAY past his prime) was the top of the heap at time. The last really good fights had been probably Hearns in the early/mid 80s, first with Leonard then with Hagler.
I remember a super hyped Pay Per View bout, Tyson's first or second title defense, where everyone was pissed becase Mike knocked the guy out in about 90 seconds and they'd all paid $25 for a half-round.
I don't see any of these MMA clowns with their own video game. As a former wrestler, MMA should appeal to me, but it doesn't. At all. Just a bunch of boring meatheads and choke-hold artists. I'd rather watch competitive knitting.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
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Patrick pretty sure that Lights out was the heavyweight champion of the world at the time of that fight. He showed up out of shape and just looking for the paycheck. No one who knows anything about fghting should try to compare a boxer to an wrestler or MMa ot Gung Fu or whatever. It only works if the match is set up allowing both fighter to use all or most of their skills. MMA is the only fighting sport that comes close to this. Lights out actually trained MMA for that fight. He simply did not train long enough or hard enough.
As for the ego thing , you have it, I have it, almost everyone has it. some are better at dealing with it than others. martial artists as a group tend to be kidding themselfs a lot. They put up a good show of being humble but deep down inside they like to impose their will on other humans. Your Mr ono felt pretty darn good after spanking that young pup. That is human nature.
Claiming that the best masters have no ego is a bit like claiming that the best climbers have no ego;)
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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Sorry you've never yet met a master. Those you describe
are charlatans, if they abuse their students and put
on such shows. There are hosts of "senseis" who lead
dojos and academy-like groups, etc. etc., and they're
not anywhere in a league with real masters. Self-confidence
and self-esteem sometimes
are confused with ego. Ono wasn't up against a "pup." Those
were the best competitive karate fighters (mostly the
top Tae Kwon Doers), vying for the
world championship. But, as I said, to try to teach you
something isn't something I am going to succeed at,
and I don't want to try. Can we simply move on?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
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Na, your ego is in the way. You automaticly assume that I was a wanker and not a real martial artist because you are still caught up in the fantasy of the " master" the Master is human, there are no real secrets other than lots of hard work and a positive attitude. My attitude may seem negative to you but it is not really. I just stepped away from the world of martial arts and I am looking at it from the outside in now. I can see a lot of things more clearly than I could when everyone (except for my girlfriend and my sensei)did whatever I asked of them instantly without question.. I never abused that power to my knowlege but it is impossible to not subconciously start believing your own press when everyone treats you like a master...
Recently I rented a netflics CD of a TV show I believe called Fightquest. Coupple of Americans travel the world working out with famous masters for a week and then fighting one of their top guys at the end of the week. It just reminded me of how the system of rank is used to protect the home turf. Not that there is anything wrong with protecting your home turf but make no mistake the odds generaly favor the house. Every single master pretty much killed those guys with a week of brutal drills so that by fight day they were toast. Then the rules of engagement always favored the home team. Karate Dojo how to break the street punk 101 :) In actual practice this move is usually used to make the punk either wise up and turn into a better person or quit without ever haveing to fight. Work them with drills untill they either quit or become good citizens and dutifull obediant martial artists.
There is a ton of good in most dojos. I would recomend the life to anyone. somehow though I did out grow it and somewhere along the way it became clear that most schools are about paying the bills, most masters are about paying the bills and almost everyone has an ego even if they do a real good job of hideing it.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 12, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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This has been an interesting dialogue – far more involved and familiar with “Martial Arts” in ST then I would have thought.
Pat & Tradman: I have seen for a lot of years (going back to 1974) that in America too many dojos will award high ranking belts (1st Dan, 2nd Dan, etc) to anyone who stayed with the school long enough. If you attend long enough we will validate with belts of “distinction” – whether they deserved it are not. I appreciate your honor and commitment Pat and I am truly impressed by the width and depth of your experience. Perhaps Tradman has used some poetic license, but there is a lot of truth to what he says regarding “Traditional” dojos – too rigid, too set and lost in legalistic view of the Martial Arts. I have witnessed real abuse (not my Sensei) that seemed more bent on adoration than development.. Pat I am sure that you are familiar that Tae Kwon Do is the “sport” break off of a larger and more rounded body of Korean Styles. Spend some time with someone proficient at such Hwa Rang Do, Tae Soo Do or Tang Soo Do and you will quickly see the difference.
The need to be honest and to test one’s art outside their own camp has really been necessary for “styles” to be able to be honest on their efficacy and worth. I remember seeing a young man, quite skilled in Traditional Okinawan Karate, coming into a Muay Thai Camp ran by a very “traditional” Thai Kru – Kru being the Thai equivalent of Sensei. When asked about his background the young man started elaborating on his skill and proficiency ( I believe he was a 2nd Dan) The Thai Kru stated empathically in the way that only Thais can “ I don’t care about black belts, got one now hold up my pants. Tell me how many fights you have….That what I need know”. Sadly to say the youngster, limited by the traditions of his system, got worked and turned every way but loose.
I agree with much of what you said Pat. I have seen “Masters” do some amazing things – but many can really get bogged down due to a very legalistic & closed mind set.
DMT: Have you been in the ring, or attended a Saturday Night Smoker or even know what that it is? Have you ever been in anything closely resembling fight or match or contest? I ask to ascertain if your background comes from doing or watching …. After all it is easy to be brave from a distance
Marlow: I think the term you were looking for where individuals jump around, use steroids and is called entertainment is probably WWE (world wrestling entertainment). This is indeed staged and rehearsed but is grossly unjust to call fake. They really do some silly things, but they also do some real amazingly athletic sh*t. Please note that its popularity far exceeds the USA and is quite popular in many countries. In Mexico, they start learning “Lucha Libre Mexicana” at quite a young age – training like gymnasts. What is really amazing is that people do not get hurt more. For what it’s worth Brock Lesnar (don’t know --- that last name kinda sounds Scandinavian) made the statement that WWE has been harder on his body than the UFC…. Just saying. You could always try standing on the bar at your local club, take a couple of shots of liquid courage and then jump off landing flat on your back. Then you can PM from the hospital and tell me how fake that was……
BES1'st: Jose Ramirez just got robbed at the world championships – they were held in country of Azerbaijan. He is a real solid kid, working on his under graduate degree and holding down a job at Starbucks. We have many old school / new school gyms here in Central Valley of which he trains at one. He has 115 wins and has broken all the amateur records that were previously held by the likes of De La Hoya, Mayweather and Mosley. Not only would I but I have seen him……. By the way BES1'st.. You are Bad Boy much respect......I appreciate your Experience and knowledge
Boxing indeed has lost a lot of its luster. All the fight games have way too many gangsters and dirty deeds done dirt cheap. Much of the MMA game seems to be headed in the same way….. I can truly appreciate the beauty and soul that Pat refers to. The amateur game of boxing still has a lot of “innocence” and love of the sport involved. It is also important that folks remember that MMA, as tough as it is, is still sport. I recently saw a fellow quite versed in being in the cage spend some time “sparring” with a Kajukenbo stylist. The man shot on the Kajukenbo man who showed him some “Kaji Love” … he sprawled while simultaneously driving his elbow into the MMA mans L3,4,5 area and just incapacitated him. The difference….. One was doing a “sport” while the other relied back on his training of “defense”
P.S. Much appreciation and respect for any and all who have ever stepped on the mat, or entered the ring or cage or who have kumite …..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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I would think that some of my viewpoint is framed by my need to justify walking away. Much of what I say is also true on many levels though..
I never took a cent for teaching . Did not believe in martial arts for profit yet had our master not been a buisnessman we would most likly not have had a full service health club complete with boxing ring, weight room,all the machines and all that floor space to train in.
You are right about the sport VS defense art thing on one level yet on annother level the sport of MMA has exposed the deficiancy of many of the defense arts.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
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I quit shortly after 911
It was a time to reflect on where your life has been, where it is going and what you want to accomplish or how you want to spend your time left in this life. I climbed 190 days the year I quit the acadamy.
The belt system is mostly about money. It gives the students a fake goal that they can fool themselfs into needing and thus keeps them in class paying dues. It generates a lot of income for the school every time you run shiai (test for rank) every student in that test pays a fee. you usually test a good size group of students at one time generating a good chunk of change. Most accredited systems the individual school has to send a percentage of that fee to the founding master or the organization that they are part of etc.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 12, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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I'm 6"1' with a 76" wingspan and right now I weigh 116 lbs. I wanna shot at Manny Paquio (sp?)
Admittedly I could be in trouble if I let him inside! My Golden Glove record was 12 wins, 5 losses. Lost my first five straight! I fought at welterweight then, age 19.
Seriously though, competing in a sport where it's legal to kick you in the head doesn't bode well for your long term smarts. That and the gay porn aspect of the whole MMA turns me off.
Boxing is the only way to go.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 12, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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So, no matter how many times I say I've had a different
experience and live in a different reality than the ones
these other people describe, they tell me I know nothing
and that the world is the way they see it, and that's that.
I'm so glad we settled that. Thanks.
(hey, let's keep our tongues in our cheeks)....
I just watched Shane Carwin get his face pummelled by
Santos, wow, the latter an excellent boxer (trains with
the national boxing team of Brazil...)
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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Pat
If in any way I have offended you I truly & sincerly apologize for this was not my intent....... as I stated earlier your experience is to be much admired and recognized.....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:23am PT
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My grandma met Ali on a plane. She said he was very nice and polite.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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My uncle almost got to meet Ali in the ring but was decisioned by Zora Foley in a 12 round bout...Zora alledgedly had his hands taped in a face-climbing crimp and tore the hell out of said uncles eyes ending his career at 33 with detatched retinas..Foley went on to fight Ali at Madison Square Garden in 70 and was KO'd by the champ in 7 rounds...During the after fight interveiw , Ali let Foley's kids know that their father was a great fighter and was fine after the being knocked out...Foley later died a mysterious death supposedly slipping by his pool and cracking his skull...Mob involvement was rumored..Boxing seems to have trouble shaking it's affiliation with the ever present crime influence..?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 13, 2011 - 03:44am PT
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After Pacquiao - Cotto
"Manny Pacquiao became a seven-weight, seven-time world champion in Las Vegas last night, stripping Miguel Cotto of his defences and the WBO welterweight championship belt with a performance that fixed the Filipino's reputation as one of the finest boxers of this or any other generation.
Kenny Bayless stepped in to end the fight 55 seconds into the 12th round but the contest was effectively over long before then. Out-fought and out-thought Cotto – a proud and strong fighter who is no one's idea of a pushover – was knocked down twice in earlier rounds and as the dénouement approached his ambitions had been reduced to little more than seeking shelter from the storm.
Even by the standards of Pacquiao's two previous visits to the MGM Grand, against Oscar De La Hoya and Ricky Hatton, both of whom he beat decisively, this was a stunning performance.
Perversely, those two wins failed to silence the small but devoted army of Pacquiao-sceptics, who insisted the Filipino had been fortunate to fight both men when they were on the way down. He would not be so lucky with Cotto, they argued. And they were right. He wasn't lucky. He did not need to be. He was simply brilliant.
As expected, the contest started quietly, with both fighters measuring each other's range and intentions. Of the few punches exchanged, Cotto landed the marginally more telling shots. That was enough to convince all three ringside judges to give the Puerto Rican the round, although it didn't take long for any sense of optimism in his corner to evaporate as Pacquiao's hand speed and footwork began to find openings.
In the third round, a two-punch combination dropped Cotto to the floor. The bigger and heavier Cotto’s hope of hurting his opponent with supposedly heavier punching power was a chimera. Indeed, Pacquiao mouthed encouragement to his opponent, egging him on to land a significant blow.
"I wanted to show everybody that I could take a punch; that the talk before the fight that he would out-punch me was wrong," he said afterwards.
Alas for Pacquiao, Cotto could not accommodate his wishes. As went the third, so did the fourth, with the Filipino landing multiple combinations, one which sent Cotto to floor again.
Many experts had assumed the Cotto's supposedly superior strength would make a telling difference in the middle rounds, but instead his largely ineffective efforts served only to highlight the other man's superiority. People knew Pacquiao could land a punch. Now they know he can take one, too.
By the latter rounds, Cotto was reduced to a hunched and cowering shadow of himself, looking less a boxer than a man seeking escape from the debt collector. The crowd, which had been split between the two at the start of the night, was by now firmly in the Pacquiao camp. Las Vegas loves nothing so much as a winner, and to prove the point it booed as Cotto danced his way through 10th and 11th rounds in an attempt to avoid his opponent's blows. It was a needlessly cruel reception for the efforts of a man whose only failing had been to step into the ring with a sublimely talented opponent.
When the end came, it wasn't so much a technical knockout but an act of mercy by Bayless, who had no desire to see Cotto's already battered face take any more punishment."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:12am PT
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Patrick. 7 years after I quit the acadamy I walked into one of our satalite schools. Everyone stopped what they were doing and bowed to me. It was a totaly sureal and strange experience. Not normal by any streatch of the imagination....
I would guess that you are still in a place where you think people bowing to you is normal. I would also guess that you do not teach for free..
The ignorant will laugh at me but the wise will understand...
Cheers, Nick
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 10:24am PT
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all the secrets dancing on my
lips tickle forth wee
ut'rings of dreamless whispers.
these collide against the
mainstream screams,
and a battle is borne in
the literary ring
where no referee
dares to twirl his thunder.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 10:27am PT
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and disaster boxes magic
in life's ring,
noone is trained
we all just fling,
our efforts about
in an attempt
to pacify,
god's foul snout.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 13, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
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The story about boxing, the white establishment and the great white hope
"Just as the camera can lie, so can it bring justice. Jack Johnson was the world's first black heavyweight champion and he so angered the white establishment with his intelligence, his fists and an insatiable appetite for women, white or black, that they sought to inhibit his advancement at every turn.
Promoters even brought Jim Jeffries out of retirement in 1910 in the expectation that he would whip Johnson. In the event, Johnson beat the challenger to a pulp over 15 rounds - and in front of the cameras. The film-makers had come to Reno, Nevada, to record what they had hoped would be a triumph for the Great White Hope. Then, as riots and lynchings erupted across the United States as news of Johnson's win spread, Congress passed an act banning the interstate transportation of fight films. It would last as long as was convenient - until Jack moved on, in fact. Two years later, he had to leave the country after becoming the first person to be convicted under the Mann Act of 1910, a measure designed to combat prostitution by forbidding the transportation between states of women for immoral purposes - Johnson had sent his girlfriend a train ticket."
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
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trad, you keep imposing your mentality on me and
seem determined to have others see the world through your
eyes. Why you keep at it is anybody's guess. It makes me sad that
your experience has been such a negative one, with
the martial arts. And yet you claim over and over to
have advanced to some sort of "level." And now you
add that you are offended by people expressing
courtesy? Or by bowing, in respect? That's a strange
bitterness. The reason I don't answer
your inquiries (there are so many points to take on,
it would be an all-day job, and a real time-waster)
is that you clearly aren't interested
in (seem to have little respect for) the thoughts
of others, and that's fine. I don't need validation,
and you shouldn't need mine. Yet as you
describe your view of things and say that's the way
the world is, I must answer that we get
the picture. We see you and your world. You describe
both well. But your various snipes
and your insistence that others are in
your same experience... well, those are really
very clear images too.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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Silver, some good thoughts. Have you seen that Santos / Carwin fight? (UFC). Santos destroys him with the jab. You can get online and go
back and watch just about any of those fights...
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wmfork
climber
Front Range
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Patrick, I think I know who you are, funny to bump into another SKA guy. As to dispell tradmanclimb's notion that all these martial arts masters think their form is the best, I distinctly remember Mr. Oshima being a huge fan of Sugar Ray Robinson (with the way he moves). I'd think if he had a lot of ego, he'd never admit that. For the number of years I've practiced under SKA, I've seen more instances of the leader letting other take shots at him/her than the other way around. As for Mr. Ono, I've had the pleasure of spending a whole week while he lead practices. The man looks like a typical overweight Japanese businessman until he turns serious (and when he's not, he can drink everyone under the table), then every move he makes is with complete focus and no wasted energy. That's the difference between the top MMA fighters vs the true masters, the former are great atheletes while the latter are artists.
One more thing tradmanclimb, I'm sure Patrick teachs for free, as do everyone in SKA. Also, we bow to each other, not just students bowing to teacher.
As for MMA vs boxing. IMO, boxing hands down. Your typical pro boxers simply have much better mastery of boxing than a MMA fighter at martial arts, not to mention with the current UFC rules, you'll just see way more wrestling than striking.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
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Patrick. you keep hitting me with condecending shots assuming that I was not bona fide or or in your league or whatever. I certaily was legit, weather or not I was in your leage is not relevant and not even judgeable without getting on the floor together. That is your ego creeping into this unconciously... Any good master appreciates the best things that other styles have to offer yet they still can't help but have ego. The very act of calling yourself master or allowing others to do so is an admission of ego ;)
I think I may have tried teasing you a little a few times as well and you may have taken it differently?
I was not offended by the bowing just suddenly aware of how weird it was. especially as I had not trained in 7 years...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
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Tradman,
You are a realist reading the world in a quite scientific way. Patrick is a romantic reading the world poetically.
And the not so strange thing is that the poet is talking down to you from his tower of imagination.
Let the poets paint the world in the colors they want. I am a big fan of Don Quijote and do not see him as a horse-arse even if that is what the name quijote really means.
I understand why you do not want him to paint you in black and grey though.
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wmfork
climber
Front Range
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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But nowadays all the up and comers are training across the board. I respect the solid all-arounders the most - kick ass at every level. I have a lot of respect toward street smart fighters, but it's also true that the current crop of top MMA fighters are also pretty horrible strikers in general. From someone with a striking background, current rules like no strikes to back of the head, groin, elbow rules encourages wrestling (and what about when you are facing multiple opponents, are you still going to wrestle?), so it bores me. Regardless, whether they are the best in MMA, there's so much each and every one could improve, at most you are seeing the best out there, but not remotely close to what the best could be.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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Not scientific at all. I am a dreamer and a romantic. The romance of grown men dressing up in their pajams and pretending to beat each other up aparently wore off after 28 years or so..
I also like to debate and play devils advocate at times.
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wmfork
climber
Front Range
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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assuming that I was not bona fide or or in your league or whatever. tradmanclimbs, I didn't read that in Pat's posts, on the other hand you have already made 2 wrong assumptions in a single post about him. AFAIK, you are certainly not in his league climbing wise.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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“Yes, so? I also got my leg broken by a sparring partner, are my bonafides sufficient to have an opinion now, Sir?”
In truth DMT I am confidant you always have had an opinion – again I was wondering where your “view” on this topic originated from. Good on ya Man for getting in the ring – much respect really. Not sure about the broken leg though….. I might have tapped or extended the distance. In my reckoning a Partner, be it climbing or combat sports, aint supposed to let ya get hurt….. I know it happens just to bad when it does.
BES1'st:
Dick Tiger – real name Richard Ihetu - was one of the greatest fighters to come out of Africa – at this time the British protectorate of Nigeria. In 1962, Tiger won the N.B.A. world middleweight boxing championship and was often seen on N.B.C. Fight of the week.
On May 20, 1965, Tiger floored Rubin "Hurricane" Carter three times and won a unanimous 10-round decision. Tiger took on Gene Fullmer and won the world's Middleweight title by decision in fifteen. Later in a rematch he drew in fifteen and in the rubber match won by knockout in seven rounds. I believe he also was one of the first middle weight to light heavyweight Champions. beating Jose Torres for the world's light heavyweight title in like 66’ or 67’
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
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Trad, I just knew you would finally come out with it. Someone
makes you feel "not bonafide." I have said nothing whatsoever
about your "practice" or your "level" or anything. Did you
want me to hail you with awe and trembling because you have
announced your vast experience? As I said, I've known a lot
of people with vast experience, and some of them were
and are actually very special. Some aren't. The
only thing I know is what you reveal here, which is an
insistence on making me (and I presume others) submit
unequivocally to the way you see things. If, for example,
you say there are no humble people, and no masters, and a
triple dozen other things you pronounce as fact, then
well it must be the case, and no one better argue, or it
will become personal with you. Mind you, I am not trying
to change your view. Your view is your view. But you cannot
impose that mentality on others who see things differently.
I have said nothing to you
that should or was intended to be taken as an insult.
But it seems if someone disagrees with you, it is
tantamount to an insult.
I simply don't see the world as do you. It has nothing to
do with that b.s. about poetic and scientific. It has to
do with the fact that two people see the world differently.
Now, if I told you all climbers were ego maniacs and there
were no true masters in climbing, based on my experience,
I bet you, or someone, might say they have had a different
experience. I pretty much disagree with everything you say,
but I don't say you should change what you believe
or that you don't have
a right to your view. It's your world. Just realize
it's not the world others live in. That's all I've been saying.
I've not said my world was better. That's for me to know
and you not to care to find out... haha, just joking.
So you might as well stop with all this other stuff you
think I'm saying. My message is very simple. Very one-
dimensional: There are different points of view. My
experience has been different, very different than yours.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
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And Trad, I really don't know where you get off saying I
call myself a master. Where do you read that?
Dingus,
your comment about the old masters not being able to go a round
with an MMA fighter, I am afraid, is something I'll have
to take issue with, in a friendly way, friend to friend,
and all, no ill will. One of the great grapplers, I would call
an old master, Gene Labelle, was about 80 when Steven Segall
was at the peak of his game and saying he was a umpteenth-degree
Aikido black belt, the best in the world. Well, Gene, gave
Steven (is it Stephen?) a little friendly challenge,
as they were friends, and
he choked Segall out in less than a minute.
Believe me, there are people now quite old who remain in phenomenal
shape. Mr. Ohshima has repeatedly given demonstrations where
he can handle an onslaught of big, strong linebacker type black belts
twice his size. I've seen a few demonstrations. Indeed, though,
there are lots of charlatans out there who claim to be masters.
A true master, virtually by definition, would not advertise himself
as such or at least not harp on the idea. It would not be an
important idea to him. You would be surprised
how good some of the old geezers are... Likewise, to some degree,
some of the old prize fighters, though miserably out of shape, could
clock you still... with a pretty good punch....
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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DMT
LOL….. I really can’t say to much.. I came from a fight family.. Father passing it on to his seven sons. As the youngest I felt as much punching bag as sparring partner sometimes. By the way Bro I didn’t mean to pose myself like a Richard Cranium, just honestly interested in peoples “World View” so to speak. Last note: My Pops in his Seventies all the way into his eighties had some speed and pepper in his hands…. But always with a smile :0)
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
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Pat
I grew up in a part of L.A. that was truly fight/combat centric. I remember seeing such people as Chuck Norris, after his retirement; at the Olympic (Chuck was indeed a very good point fighter). There were also people like Sensei Steve Saunders from the B.K.A. (Black Karate Association) who made a cameo in Enter the Dragon as Jim Kelly’s character Williams Sensei. Your mention of Judo Gene LeBell made me smile. That Old Man came as tough as they could….. Just ask the Gracie’s. When the Gracie’s came by Benny “The Jet” Urquidez camp to challenge him to a fight ….. As the story goes…. Benny accepted, asking for some time to sharpen up his grappling skills (his mother was a professional wrestler and his father a very decent pro boxer) .. Finding out that Benny already had a solid grappling back ground and that his grappling Coach was Mr. LeBell they happen to retract the offer…. Huh go figure. Mr.LeBell… not a joke at all.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
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Pat. sorry If I came off on the wrong foot. I mentioned that I had been a 4th dan at one point and you fired back that there are lots of folks out there that shouldn't have their rank. Perhaps I simply misunderstood you. You do seem at least as much condecending as I sound sarcastic. I do fail to see what either of our climbing abilitys or even martial art abilitys has to do with this conversation. It was a world that I was part of for a long time and chose to walk away from. What I may have been trying to say but did a poor job of by being a sarcastic prick was the following.
Many traditional martial artist are insulated by their systems and would get a rather rude awakening if they mixed it up with a more rounded individual who was in top condition.. Not talking fluff movie stars>
Many systems have too many techniques many of which do not work outside of their own dojos. These systems would bennifit from shedding the fluff and spending more time on the things that do work.. Do nothing that is of no use.
I know this one is profileing and that rankles many folks feathers but often there is a lot of truth in profileing
A large percentage of high level martial artists seem to be struggleing with ego. Acting humble is not the same as being humble. One of my observations over the years was that the level of respect that is given rank makes it easy to let your ego creep up on you if one is not carefull. Most of us are not as moral as we think we are or would like to be. Try to get through a day without judgeing anyone and perhaps you will understand a bit better where I an am going with this. BTW I had this ego discussion with my 7th dan cousin who trains in Okinawa a fair bit and has had several of his tests there. He whole heartedly agreed with me.. and not just to be polite. They really do like playing the game with the Americans. Not that that is a bad thing but it is what it is.
Lastly I do feel that MMA has exposed the achilies heel of many of the striking arts. Without a good takedown defense and at least some level of proficiancy in the ground game all the stripes on your belt mean absolutly nothing in the real world.
Nick
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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Trad, I really can't argue with you on many of those points, when
you put them that way. And the more reasonable tone helps.
But this humility issue... Certainly you are correct
that there are very unhumble people. Humility is a strange
thing. The minute you think you've got it you've lost it.
I was always told, in younger years especially, that I had
a big ego. In fact I was pretty much just a frightened kid very
inept at the social graces. But it's a gross generalization
if one were to suggest that a lack of humility among
martial artists is the case in some universal way.
I do know some very genuinely humble people, and I'm not talking
about those who say they are humble. One is Mr.
Ohshima, an amazingly gifted individual and amazingly generous
and humble. Sure, weirdos exist all over the place. And sure, the
average choreographed martial artist will be in deep water in the
"real" world of the UFC, but there are plenty of very high level
people who don't compete but who would have no trouble holding their
own and better in any situation... Tom Muzila has been on the cover
of Black Belt Magazine something like fifteen times (it's not a magazine
I like, for the most part), and he is one of those guys who is
a kind of national treasure, a humble guy who has
body-guarded many of the top Hollywood stars, just as a side job....
Dingus, don't get too carried away. I mean, I find your
passion and enthusiasm addictive and enjoyable,
but Stephen Segal is no pushover.
He's not the ultimate master he has more or less portrayed himself, but
don't think he couldn't show some very good fighters a thing or two.
He's just a little too choreographed, as are many martial artists.
He hired my friend Muzila to play stunt roles, and though Muzila
was vastly superior skillwise, Muzila always would be killed in the
film by one of Segal's swift techniques!! We have laughed at that.
(I edited this last post, as I had fired it off in a big rush
before I had to leave and made some significant typos).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 09:12am PT
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Patrick, Again I apologize for my tone at the start of this thread. I was in internet mode and simply fired off a post and then dug a hole trying to prop it up. Poorly played on my part.
Back to the Op and my original point that boxing is finished.
20-30 years ago I worked in a restarunte/bar that had cable TV. We watched Tues night fights on ESPN every week and often there was more boxing on the weekends. Though I was training Karate at the time we loved that boxing. There were a few amatuer boxers and one pro training out of our gym/dojo and when we boxed those guys schooled us karate guys pretty bad (with the exception of sensei Marello)but we loved it. Leanord, Duran,Hearns, Hagler, mancini, Chaves,Hollyfield,Holms, Tyson etc. etc. etc all captavated us. We loved our boxing even though we were karate guys. Three years ago I had a Dish installed and had TV again for two years and then had it turned off. No more boxing. It was like it had vanished. If you searched long and hard enough through the 600 channels of crap you might find some old re runs or maybe olympic trials. MMA was everywhere! I got so conditioned to watching MMA that when I did watch boxing it bored me. I found myself coaching the boxer to hit him with a flying knee next time he tries to clynch! That was my most recent experience with main stream media. Pac man was the only new Boxer with any real main stream exposure. MMA fighters were everywhere selling energy drinks and workout gear and showcased fighting pretty much daily.
Nick
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 09:14am PT
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Best, It seems that you were a top 10 boxer BINTD ? That is pretty darn cool! I take it that you are also a climber?
What weight division?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 10:10am PT
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i once knocked a guys tooth
out at a gas station.
i still might go to jail over that one.
keep it in the ring, folks.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 10:33am PT
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Someone brought up the deaths in boxing Vs deaths in MMA. The following is a theory that I have had for decades.
The standing eight count is the cause in most of those deaths. You stun a guy, you are about to finish him off and win the fight. The reff stops the fight and allows the guy to partialy recover and stay in the fight. At that time he sustains more dammage. If it warrents a standing eight that means that one fighter is winning and the other loseing. let the winner fininsh the fight or call the fight with a TKO. Instead they let the guy continue and get scrambled. It could also be argued that the 10 count does basicly the same thing. Gives the guy who just lost the fight a 2nd chance. In MMA when you get a knockdown instead of giveing the guy a chance to recover they pounce and try to finish the fight. If they are sucessfull the fight is over quickly without sustaining as much prolonged dammage.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 14, 2011 - 10:36am PT
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Wegian...Were you wearing Everlast shorts and gloves...You can tell the judge you were trying to avoid a low blow...Maybe he will be lenient...? RJ
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
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BES1's
I really wasn't able to find anything conclusive as to who has the most Championship Rounds.... though it does look like your man Greb fought close to 280 -290 fights with something close to 2600 rounds boxed .....
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
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Best'1
I think you are right ..... I still believe that Salvador Sanchez would have been perhaps the greatest at his weight if he wasn't cut down so early .. he wasn't even in his prime.... at the time they were pointing to the Narcos for doing it because he would not play their game. I will be gone for a few days catch you when I get back.. Peace
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 14, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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"pillows strapped to their mitts"
Hmmm. Do people who think like that believe there is no power
in a boxer's punch?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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DMT> the problem with eliminateing elbows especialy on the ground is it dramaticly favors the wrestlers. You see this in strike force where elbows are illegal on the ground. The guy on the bottom can easily control the hands of the guy trying to pound him. Standing or on the ground when someone grabs your hands one of the more efective methods of freeing your hands is to collaps into your oponent with the elbow. Takeing that away is a rather dramitic change in style that very much favors the wrestler over the striker.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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Did you see the Uriah Faber Dan Brown 2nd fight where Uria broke both hands and fought the 2nd and 3rd round with stand up elbow strikes? he made that fight fairly competitve even with 2 broken hands. Impressive INMOP..
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 19, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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BEST'1
I believe it was more about influence than use - the old story of gangsters having a heavy hand on the whose and shouldn’ts in the fight game. As I had heard at the time SS was not into being anyone's boy and very resistant on being told what to do and who to fight
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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Quote Here Elbow strikes benefit everyone but the person being hit with them. I understand how devastating they are. I've seen unconscious dudes get slammed in the head repeatedly because of slow stops from the refs. Long term damage is nearly a given in those circumstances. Whether its law suit driven or comes from fighter advocates I think sooner or later it will be stopped.
When Hagler got Hearns in that corner and started following through with his elbows, it was all over more or less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VI-M9Yw-28
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
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Oct 19, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
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Those Klitschko brothers are pretty good plus they're pretty classy guys from
what I've seen. They both speak about 5 languages and Vladimir is a pretty
fair chess player apparently.
I have heard better than fair.
How did we get to the point where we need a "great black hope" in boxing though??
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
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Look at their legs - Hearns NEVER belonged in the middle weight division.
The Hit Man had height and reach, for sure. The Marvelous One had heart. I still don't understand how they could stoop so low as to give that fight against Sugar Ray Leonard to Leonard. A real crime.
Marvin never made it as a commentator, unfortunately. I watched him do a couple of fights, and he only ever had one comment to make: "He should move forward!" That was Marvin Hagler.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 19, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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"MMA is going through a maturation process, transition from brawling to highly specialized fighting. The entire sport is 'learning' as it goes".
DMT: I believe that we forget that VALE TUDO (Portuguese for “anything goes”) has been around since at least the 20’s & 30’s, and we in turn have an inadvertent disconnect from that past. It has moved from No Holds Barred, which allowed for small joint manipulation, etc. to the developing sport you referenced, which has very specific dos & don’ts. When you watch the films of Helio Gracie, et al from BITD you will see some highly skilled practitioners, the majority coming from the grappling arts. This is not to refute you sentiment – which obviously has some validity, rather an attempt to peer back with appropriate appreciation to allow for better perspective. The brawling stage is a relative new “phenomenon” that is best represented by the likes of Tank Abbott, et al.
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CClarke
climber
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Oct 19, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
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My son is a captain of the boxing team at West Point. I am very proud of him but I don't really get the boxing thing. Still, I would prefer that he gets to continue his boxing career than spend his six years after graduation in the Middle East or Central Asia.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 19, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
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My son is a captain of the boxing team at West Point. I am very proud of him but I don't really get the boxing thing. Still, I would prefer that he gets to continue his boxing career than spend his six years after graduation in the Middle East or Central Asia.
Congratulations to your son for:
1) Making it to West Point.
2) Being Captain of the West Point team.
No wonder you're proud.
As to your final concern, as a military man I understand it, but that's the deal with getting your education at an academy. You sign up, then you owe.....
Good luck to you all.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 23, 2011 - 12:44am PT
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Wladimir Klitschko - that is, Doctor Klitschko (he has a doctorate in sport science) - apparently quite likes chess, as does his brother. As, apparently, does former champion Canadian Lennox Lewis, who according to some had or has an FIDE rating of 2,000. Anyone feel like suggesting to any of them that chess is for unmanly geeks?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 23, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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Did anyone see the hopkins fight? Blarrrg.
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CClarke
climber
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Oct 23, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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Hi Survival-
Yes, that is the deal. It is a fair deal and you know what it is when you sign up. It's hard to ask for more than that but a parent still worries you know.
Cheers,
Chris
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laughingman
Ice climber
Seattle WA
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Got to say I am a k1 guy
k1 and k1 max tournament always turned out exciting because of the rules were made to promote action.
Unlike boxing everybody who is good in k1 actually competes against one and other due to the tournament format.
unfortunately K1 is broke at the moment
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Best...Nice shots of Lone Pine...Don't remember the chalets though...?
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Nov 13, 2011 - 12:35am PT
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Aaron Pryor vs Alexis Arguello was
one of the best bouts of all time.
F*#king heavy handed war the entire fight.....until........
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Nov 13, 2011 - 01:12am PT
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Hmmmm... good boxing... I guess...
Pacman gets the decision... hmmm. Guess you gotta go in there and BEAT the champ to win.
That Arum dude sure showed his stuff,
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michaeld
Sport climber
Near Tahoe, CA
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:16am PT
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I'm glad Pacman didn't lose....
But a draw would of settled easier.
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ruppell
climber
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:23am PT
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Mike Tyson vs ANYONE(except Buster Douglous)
Oh back in the day
Well before MMa
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:28am PT
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? what does MMA have to do with Mike Tyson? If you didn't find tonights boxing bout entertaining I have no words.
Tyson didn't exactly face a murderers row before Douglas. Spinks? Not bad, but look at who Manny has faced... hatton, Cotto, mosley, clottey, Marquez (x3!!)
The golden age is right now...
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ruppell
climber
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:39am PT
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Knot to cut you off butt Tony Curtis faced of against some old wanna be mma fighter and was taken out in 38 seconds. That my freind is the point
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 13, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
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I like Junior's "rags to riches" story, and he seems like an overwhelmingly decent guy.
Ruppel - Manny Pacqiao could get choked out in 15 seconds by a BJJ black belt, it doesn't take anything away from who he is as a boxer. Different sports. That's like saying Steve House is a bum because he lost to Daniel Woods in a bouldering contest.
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scrappy
Social climber
Floataledge on the S.F. bay
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If Mayweather wants to fight Pacman he should fight Cotto or Margarito or whoever win between Cotto and Margarito this month. I like boxing better than MMA....
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Good times...
Cotto gettin' er done w/ some class!
Good fighter.
Cheers!
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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After watching Vitali Klitschko in the link above I must say that Klitschko would not have lasted 3 rounds with the great heavy weights of the past. He is slow as molasses running in winter, and his footwork is not even that good. That guy he's fighting is a tomato can.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 28, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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I just bought a photo.
I would say it is one of the three most iconic of all photos ever made.
The first 2 would be the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima, and Ruby shooting Oswald.
Yeah,... boxing fans know the one;
May 25, 1965, the title fight that nearly didn't take place. At the last minute a small time promoter got to use the Central Maine Civic Center in Lewiston.
There were 3 heavyweight champions in the ring that night because the referee was Jersey Joe Wolcott.
In the first round Ali knocked Liston to the canvas with the "phantom punch" and stood over him bellowing, "Get up and fight you big ugly bear!"
Neil Leifer took the photo.
Wolcott never gave Liston the ten count as he was busy drawing Ali into a neutral corner. The fight even briefly continued, before Wolcott stopped it.
My copy is a beautiful color print in a "30 x "40 frame and is signed by the champ (with all the documentation).
It is an open edition but Ali has only signed about 10, and likely won't be signing any more, so I expect it to appreciate, but I have no plans of selling it.
It is a moment in history.
Liston later said he took a dive because he owed the mob.
In 1970 he died at home. As he fell his fists, so large that commercial gloves wouldn't fit, smashed through a wooden bench.
The body wasn't found for a week.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mar 28, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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ALI ROCKS LISTON!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 28, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Oh no!
I bought a fake!
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Mar 29, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Yeah, that's definitely an iconic shot, Ron. Did you read Nick Tosches' book on Liston, The Devil and Sonny Liston? Not great, but better than decent.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 23, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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LaMotta - Sugar Ray
"Purists would come to note that changes had taken place in the fighting style of Sugar Ray Robinson during the LaMotta battles. Because LaMotta simply would not go down, Robinson had learned patience in the ring, taking punishing body blows and all the while adjusting his mental resolve. There would be bruising; there would be blood. He adjusted the artistic bent of his fighting game--he had a habit of humming jazz tunes to himself between rounds--to withstand power from the other direction. It was a determined reaction to LaMotta's style, but it would also supply him with the confidence to extend his career when others advised against it."
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 10, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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Tapia, wow.
Albuquerque has some hard characters, no doubt about it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 10, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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The fix was in....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 25, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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What a joke...
Riley, have you noticed that your 'tude is slipping a little more to the negative these days, or is it just me???
Peace Bro
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 27, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Talk about a guy who looked kind of sloppy most of the time but allways found a way to win.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Pretty sure if Anderson Silva had been brought up in boxing rather than MMA he would be just as big of a player in the boxing world as he is in the MMA world.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Nov 16, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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^I always admired him, that picture is so sad
Let's do right by the man's legacy
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Nov 18, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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UFC is cool if you like seeing a bunch of dudes on juice do the same interviews over and over in between extreme violence for which they get paid pennies while the organization rakes in billions. Personally I don't spend my hard earned cash paying to watch that. I have seen it when hanging with friends and I feel sorry for the poor dudes in the ring who take all the pain and punishment that the sport makes it's $ off and who will pay for their medical care when they aren't worth any more $ to UFC? The taxpayers will.
F*#K VIOLENCE
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 24, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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F*#K VIOLENCE As a result of "violence" Hector "Macho" Comacho died this morning. As you have probably heard, he and a friend (49) were shot while sitting in their car last tuesday. His friend died at the scene. Hector was 50 years old!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 24, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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Splitter,
the back story on that is that the drug cartels are finding that routing drug shipments through Puerto Rico (which is already in the US) is less problematic than Mexico. But the stink always follows the crap and with contraband comes corruption.
As a result PR is suffering a huge crime wave of which Comacho was just another casualty.
Yes there was coke in the car, but if the government didn't act as if it owned the actual bodies of it's citizens to the point that it can tell them what they can or can't put in them then there would be no profit to be made.
Does anybody really believe that organized crime didn't learn from the mistake of repealing prohibition, and that they don't politically finance the most vehement anti-drug politicians to preserve their market?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Nov 25, 2012 - 03:58am PT
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"For Ricky Hatton, the fight is over at last. When the excellent former world champion Vyacheslav Senchenko drilled a wicked left deep into Hatton's washboard gut eight seconds from the end of the ninth round here on Saturday night, he left the skeletal shell of a former hero bent double on the canvas for the full count, but the Ukrainian did no more than put a full stop to a sentence that had been drawn out maybe a soundbite too long in recent weeks and months.
Afterwards an emotional Hatton called time on his career. "That's it for Ricky Hatton," he said. "I haven't got it any more. I had a good cry. But I'm a happy man. I don't feel like killing myself, I don't feel like slitting my wrists. I'm not going to put my loved ones through that again. I've put my demons to bed."
Hatton, at 34 a year younger than his opponent, was asking a lot of himself – and the 20,000 supporters who packed the Manchester Arena – to come back after three-and-a-half years away from the ring. He said he wanted to erase the memory of defeat by Manny Pacquiao in Las Vegas in 2009, and at least he did not finish the journey unconscious.
He was devastated, a little embarrassed perhaps, but in one piece. He can move on now, surely, to seek normality, maybe even repair a two-year rift with his parents, and certainly give his partner, Jennifer, and children, Campbell and Millie, more of his time. He has survived physical pain in the ring, mental torture outside it. He has won world titles at two weights.
This was his 14th fight in this arena, and his first loss in front of his fanatical supporters. Who was more nervous? Senchenko, who had fought outside his country only three times in 33 contests, back-pedalled at the start, dry-skinned, pawing out exploratory lefts. Hatton bounced in front of him, but the blows took a while to flow and his nose reddened quickly on the end of a jab. It's been a while. The intent was there; the execution proved elusive. He swung a wild left and took a right.
Hatton promised he would work the angles but his lines were predictable. Senchenko kept his shape, shipping an uppercut but steadying Hatton with a crisp right flat on his jaw. The British fighter had for months worked over his trainer Bob Shannon wearing the inflated body bag, but found his work downstairs less profitable here. Senchenko is no Shannon. Hatton, still desperate to land a statement punch, winged hooks around Senchenko's bobbing head, looking for a finisher. Senchenko is hardly a mover of Floyd Mayweather's class, yet he proved tough to find. A straight right of his own brought "oohs" from the crowd.
Hatton had said the "old Ricky" would account well enough for Senchenko. What he needed was less of the "old" and more of the "Ricky". His short-armed flurries lacked coherence, but he started to get through towards the end of the fourth. He clipped Senchenko with a clean right on the ropes but found him harder to hit in the centre of the ring, and showed the characteristic impatience of a fighter nearing the end of a long road, keen either to get it over with or to extend the journey.
Senchenko scored with two regulation rights to the jaw and Hatton slipped to the floor in indisciplined retaliation. When he took a left hook and a succession of jabs, the contest took on a different tone altogether. Midway, this was no longer a celebration, but a rude awakening. There looked to be no energy in Hatton's legs, strength in his punches or conviction in his eyes. As if he had skipped back to his childhood, Hatton was lunging like a novice and a look of desperation masked his battered features.
The crowd, so loud 20 minutes earlier, fell virtually silent. Yet he soldiered on for them, soaking up blows he should have seen coming a fortnight ago, raking Senchenko with the odd hook. And then a red chink of light appeared: a cut under the Ukrainian's left eye. There was still hope. His right cheek was growing blue and tender by the jab, but Hatton barrelled forward, oblivious still to the oncoming traffic. Blood dripped from his swollen lips. He swung, missed, swung, missed. By round eight, the contest had descended into a cruel spectacle.
We had reached the stage where the gathering was thankful Senchenko could not punch like Pacquiao. The unspoken communal wish was that this would end with some semblance of dignity. Perhaps Senchenko – like Larry Holmes against Muhammad Ali – shared the sentiment. But he behaved professionally, hitting hard, boxing cautiously. And then, midway through the ninth, he delivered the blow that ended a dream, a body shot deep into Hatton's midsection that dropped him like a rock. Hatton got up, walked to the ropes, head bent, and if he wasn't crying, he was entitled to. Still they sang: "There's only one Ricky Hatton!" What better fans could a fighter have? They should rise in a chorus now to say, thanks mate, and goodbye.
"I'm really heartbroken," said the fighter. I'm gutted. I'm a champion, I'm a fighter. I'm sick, I worked so hard. He caught me a few times earlier. It was a very good shot." His trainer Bob Shannon said, "He's not 24, he's 34. He looked old at times; you can't beat youth. But whatever he decides to do, the team will stand by him."
There have been better British champions, perhaps. But few braver."
The Guardian
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 28, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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Toker Villian - ...and politically finance the most vehement anti-drug politicians to preserve their market? No doubt!
"When good become evil and evil becomes good." ~ JC
"Time has come today" ~ The Chambers Brothers
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Nov 28, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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Hey Marlow
tfpu
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 11, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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STILL, "the Greatest"...
Damn right.
"So I went to talk to Muhammed Ali. He says, 'Jim Brown wants to fight me? Bring him here.'
So I took him to Hyde Park in London, where Ali used to run. Ali said, 'Jimmy, here's what we're going to do: You hit me as hard as you can.' So Brown starts swinging and swinging, and he can't hit him. He's swinging wildly and not even coming close. This goes on for, like, 30 seconds. Then Ali hits him with this quick one-two to his face. Jimmy just stops and says, 'OK, I get the point.'"
-- Boxing promoter Bob Arum, talking about the time Jim Brown considered fighting Ali
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/boxing/nfl-great-jimmy-brown-quickly-gave-idea-fight-070258768--box.html
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 11, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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Could fight her way out of a wet paper sack, but then who could?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jun 26, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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Henry " Hank " Thurman , heavyweight prize fighter originally from Modesto , passed away from natural causes last week in Santa Monica...Henry fought in Canada and all across the US...Henry had a chance to fight Muhammed Ali but lost a decision to Zoro Folley who was then knocked out by Ali in 7 rounds in Madison Square Garden...Hanks fight record can be found at boxrec.com ...RJ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 18, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
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specialistclimber...Found out Hank , my godfather , worked with Dundee and Johnny Malone..Hank also boxed Rex Layne who later got KO'd by Marciano...The Layne/Marciano fight is on youtube...Looks like back then everything was a brawling slugfest...RJ
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 26, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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Somehow we missed the passing of Ken Norton?
What the hell? Did someone post this and I was asleep?
Ken Norton, who had three memorable fights with Muhammad Ali, breaking Ali’s jaw in winning their first bout, then losing twice, and who went on to become the World Boxing Council heavyweight champion, died Wednesday in the Las Vegas suburb of Henderson, Nev. He was 70.
RIP Ken. You were a real Warrior.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sep 26, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
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Not sure about that "We"...
But apparently YOU did...
Yeah well, "I" did for sure. But it also appears that "we" did too. Not one post for the passing of this giant?
Yes, I'm an Ali fan too, but Ken was Bad To The Bone.
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overwatch
climber
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May 22, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
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great Norton Holmes clip. toe to toe and beating the sh#t out of each other
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 22, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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So you just got it done - you nabbed your route at the Hulk at long last! you sent in grand, kick-ass style, you're on top of the world, like all triumphant and sh#t (ala Moosedrool). That's right, you're high on life, and now you and your buddy have just rolled into Bridgeport for your traditional burger and shake before hittin the long road home - you can't wait, ahh mm good! But before you sit down, even before you make it to the pub's door - wtf?! you're confronted by a couple hostiles - really no idea why but just that fast they're in your face, all belligerent and sh#t. wtf?! What do you do? How to respond?
Well here's a scenario (the play action starts at 4:21) along similar lines that powerfully demos how it pays to know what to do... beforehand...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1Cb-rDKQI&feature=youtu.be
Don't know about you, but I noticed at least a half dozen important conditions or dos and don'ts - apart from the ones discussed - that helped shape this outcome.
PS
It seems some of these "combative strategies" could be used on this site on some of these threads, no? ;)
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Oct 30, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Today is the 40th Anniversary of the Rumble in the Jungle. This documentary of the buildup and the fight is highly recommended.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 30, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
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Giant of a boxer with a big heart...RIP
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 30, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
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Hard to believe it's been 40 years since The Rumble. Ali won the fight that night, but he lost the battle.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ali-foreman-dwyre-20141030-column.html
But there was never one like this one. The unbeaten and younger 1968 Olympic champion Foreman, 25, was going against the older 1960 Olympic champion Ali, 32. The elder had been heavyweight champion. Now the younger was.
Would young and strong beat quick and crafty? Could there be any better drama than a fight in which Foreman was a 4-1 favorite and, in strange contradiction to that, millions of fight fans sincerely worried that Foreman might kill Ali?
"I was pretty full of myself," Foreman said Tuesday from his home in Houston. "I had no respect for anyone, and disregard for everything."
...
Foreman threw everything but the president's DC-10 at Ali, who was still hale and hearty at the bell ending the fourth round.
"As he turned to go to his corner," Foreman said, "he looked at me. There was a smile, like he was saying, 'I made it.'
"I remembered thinking, 'Oh, oh. He made it.'"
By the sixth round, Ali was still ducking, weaving and bouncing off the ropes.
"At one point, in the sixth," Foreman said, "I hit him with maybe the best shot I ever got off. He kind of leaned on me and whispered in my ear, 'George, is that all you got?'
"I remember thinking, 'Yup, that's about it.'"
Foreman was exhausted, with no plan B.
"I didn't back up," Foreman said. "I didn't know how. I always just came forward."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 20, 2017 - 09:06am PT
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Jake LaMotta passed away at 95.
LaMotta went 83-19-4 with 30 knockouts in a career that lasted from 1941 to 1954. He fought multiple times in a month several times, earning a reputation as a brawler and the nickname Bronx Bull.
Sugar Ray left his human form at 67.
YMMV
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
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So how stoopid was that woman judge at the Golovkin/Alvarez fight?
Was she on the take, or what?
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