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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 13, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
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The story about boxing, the white establishment and the great white hope
"Just as the camera can lie, so can it bring justice. Jack Johnson was the world's first black heavyweight champion and he so angered the white establishment with his intelligence, his fists and an insatiable appetite for women, white or black, that they sought to inhibit his advancement at every turn.
Promoters even brought Jim Jeffries out of retirement in 1910 in the expectation that he would whip Johnson. In the event, Johnson beat the challenger to a pulp over 15 rounds - and in front of the cameras. The film-makers had come to Reno, Nevada, to record what they had hoped would be a triumph for the Great White Hope. Then, as riots and lynchings erupted across the United States as news of Johnson's win spread, Congress passed an act banning the interstate transportation of fight films. It would last as long as was convenient - until Jack moved on, in fact. Two years later, he had to leave the country after becoming the first person to be convicted under the Mann Act of 1910, a measure designed to combat prostitution by forbidding the transportation between states of women for immoral purposes - Johnson had sent his girlfriend a train ticket."
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
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trad, you keep imposing your mentality on me and
seem determined to have others see the world through your
eyes. Why you keep at it is anybody's guess. It makes me sad that
your experience has been such a negative one, with
the martial arts. And yet you claim over and over to
have advanced to some sort of "level." And now you
add that you are offended by people expressing
courtesy? Or by bowing, in respect? That's a strange
bitterness. The reason I don't answer
your inquiries (there are so many points to take on,
it would be an all-day job, and a real time-waster)
is that you clearly aren't interested
in (seem to have little respect for) the thoughts
of others, and that's fine. I don't need validation,
and you shouldn't need mine. Yet as you
describe your view of things and say that's the way
the world is, I must answer that we get
the picture. We see you and your world. You describe
both well. But your various snipes
and your insistence that others are in
your same experience... well, those are really
very clear images too.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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Silver, some good thoughts. Have you seen that Santos / Carwin fight? (UFC). Santos destroys him with the jab. You can get online and go
back and watch just about any of those fights...
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wmfork
climber
Front Range
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Patrick, I think I know who you are, funny to bump into another SKA guy. As to dispell tradmanclimb's notion that all these martial arts masters think their form is the best, I distinctly remember Mr. Oshima being a huge fan of Sugar Ray Robinson (with the way he moves). I'd think if he had a lot of ego, he'd never admit that. For the number of years I've practiced under SKA, I've seen more instances of the leader letting other take shots at him/her than the other way around. As for Mr. Ono, I've had the pleasure of spending a whole week while he lead practices. The man looks like a typical overweight Japanese businessman until he turns serious (and when he's not, he can drink everyone under the table), then every move he makes is with complete focus and no wasted energy. That's the difference between the top MMA fighters vs the true masters, the former are great atheletes while the latter are artists.
One more thing tradmanclimb, I'm sure Patrick teachs for free, as do everyone in SKA. Also, we bow to each other, not just students bowing to teacher.
As for MMA vs boxing. IMO, boxing hands down. Your typical pro boxers simply have much better mastery of boxing than a MMA fighter at martial arts, not to mention with the current UFC rules, you'll just see way more wrestling than striking.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
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Patrick. you keep hitting me with condecending shots assuming that I was not bona fide or or in your league or whatever. I certaily was legit, weather or not I was in your leage is not relevant and not even judgeable without getting on the floor together. That is your ego creeping into this unconciously... Any good master appreciates the best things that other styles have to offer yet they still can't help but have ego. The very act of calling yourself master or allowing others to do so is an admission of ego ;)
I think I may have tried teasing you a little a few times as well and you may have taken it differently?
I was not offended by the bowing just suddenly aware of how weird it was. especially as I had not trained in 7 years...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
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Tradman,
You are a realist reading the world in a quite scientific way. Patrick is a romantic reading the world poetically.
And the not so strange thing is that the poet is talking down to you from his tower of imagination.
Let the poets paint the world in the colors they want. I am a big fan of Don Quijote and do not see him as a horse-arse even if that is what the name quijote really means.
I understand why you do not want him to paint you in black and grey though.
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wmfork
climber
Front Range
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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But nowadays all the up and comers are training across the board. I respect the solid all-arounders the most - kick ass at every level. I have a lot of respect toward street smart fighters, but it's also true that the current crop of top MMA fighters are also pretty horrible strikers in general. From someone with a striking background, current rules like no strikes to back of the head, groin, elbow rules encourages wrestling (and what about when you are facing multiple opponents, are you still going to wrestle?), so it bores me. Regardless, whether they are the best in MMA, there's so much each and every one could improve, at most you are seeing the best out there, but not remotely close to what the best could be.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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Not scientific at all. I am a dreamer and a romantic. The romance of grown men dressing up in their pajams and pretending to beat each other up aparently wore off after 28 years or so..
I also like to debate and play devils advocate at times.
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wmfork
climber
Front Range
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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assuming that I was not bona fide or or in your league or whatever. tradmanclimbs, I didn't read that in Pat's posts, on the other hand you have already made 2 wrong assumptions in a single post about him. AFAIK, you are certainly not in his league climbing wise.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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“Yes, so? I also got my leg broken by a sparring partner, are my bonafides sufficient to have an opinion now, Sir?”
In truth DMT I am confidant you always have had an opinion – again I was wondering where your “view” on this topic originated from. Good on ya Man for getting in the ring – much respect really. Not sure about the broken leg though….. I might have tapped or extended the distance. In my reckoning a Partner, be it climbing or combat sports, aint supposed to let ya get hurt….. I know it happens just to bad when it does.
BES1'st:
Dick Tiger – real name Richard Ihetu - was one of the greatest fighters to come out of Africa – at this time the British protectorate of Nigeria. In 1962, Tiger won the N.B.A. world middleweight boxing championship and was often seen on N.B.C. Fight of the week.
On May 20, 1965, Tiger floored Rubin "Hurricane" Carter three times and won a unanimous 10-round decision. Tiger took on Gene Fullmer and won the world's Middleweight title by decision in fifteen. Later in a rematch he drew in fifteen and in the rubber match won by knockout in seven rounds. I believe he also was one of the first middle weight to light heavyweight Champions. beating Jose Torres for the world's light heavyweight title in like 66’ or 67’
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
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Trad, I just knew you would finally come out with it. Someone
makes you feel "not bonafide." I have said nothing whatsoever
about your "practice" or your "level" or anything. Did you
want me to hail you with awe and trembling because you have
announced your vast experience? As I said, I've known a lot
of people with vast experience, and some of them were
and are actually very special. Some aren't. The
only thing I know is what you reveal here, which is an
insistence on making me (and I presume others) submit
unequivocally to the way you see things. If, for example,
you say there are no humble people, and no masters, and a
triple dozen other things you pronounce as fact, then
well it must be the case, and no one better argue, or it
will become personal with you. Mind you, I am not trying
to change your view. Your view is your view. But you cannot
impose that mentality on others who see things differently.
I have said nothing to you
that should or was intended to be taken as an insult.
But it seems if someone disagrees with you, it is
tantamount to an insult.
I simply don't see the world as do you. It has nothing to
do with that b.s. about poetic and scientific. It has to
do with the fact that two people see the world differently.
Now, if I told you all climbers were ego maniacs and there
were no true masters in climbing, based on my experience,
I bet you, or someone, might say they have had a different
experience. I pretty much disagree with everything you say,
but I don't say you should change what you believe
or that you don't have
a right to your view. It's your world. Just realize
it's not the world others live in. That's all I've been saying.
I've not said my world was better. That's for me to know
and you not to care to find out... haha, just joking.
So you might as well stop with all this other stuff you
think I'm saying. My message is very simple. Very one-
dimensional: There are different points of view. My
experience has been different, very different than yours.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
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And Trad, I really don't know where you get off saying I
call myself a master. Where do you read that?
Dingus,
your comment about the old masters not being able to go a round
with an MMA fighter, I am afraid, is something I'll have
to take issue with, in a friendly way, friend to friend,
and all, no ill will. One of the great grapplers, I would call
an old master, Gene Labelle, was about 80 when Steven Segall
was at the peak of his game and saying he was a umpteenth-degree
Aikido black belt, the best in the world. Well, Gene, gave
Steven (is it Stephen?) a little friendly challenge,
as they were friends, and
he choked Segall out in less than a minute.
Believe me, there are people now quite old who remain in phenomenal
shape. Mr. Ohshima has repeatedly given demonstrations where
he can handle an onslaught of big, strong linebacker type black belts
twice his size. I've seen a few demonstrations. Indeed, though,
there are lots of charlatans out there who claim to be masters.
A true master, virtually by definition, would not advertise himself
as such or at least not harp on the idea. It would not be an
important idea to him. You would be surprised
how good some of the old geezers are... Likewise, to some degree,
some of the old prize fighters, though miserably out of shape, could
clock you still... with a pretty good punch....
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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DMT
LOL….. I really can’t say to much.. I came from a fight family.. Father passing it on to his seven sons. As the youngest I felt as much punching bag as sparring partner sometimes. By the way Bro I didn’t mean to pose myself like a Richard Cranium, just honestly interested in peoples “World View” so to speak. Last note: My Pops in his Seventies all the way into his eighties had some speed and pepper in his hands…. But always with a smile :0)
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
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Pat
I grew up in a part of L.A. that was truly fight/combat centric. I remember seeing such people as Chuck Norris, after his retirement; at the Olympic (Chuck was indeed a very good point fighter). There were also people like Sensei Steve Saunders from the B.K.A. (Black Karate Association) who made a cameo in Enter the Dragon as Jim Kelly’s character Williams Sensei. Your mention of Judo Gene LeBell made me smile. That Old Man came as tough as they could….. Just ask the Gracie’s. When the Gracie’s came by Benny “The Jet” Urquidez camp to challenge him to a fight ….. As the story goes…. Benny accepted, asking for some time to sharpen up his grappling skills (his mother was a professional wrestler and his father a very decent pro boxer) .. Finding out that Benny already had a solid grappling back ground and that his grappling Coach was Mr. LeBell they happen to retract the offer…. Huh go figure. Mr.LeBell… not a joke at all.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 13, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
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Pat. sorry If I came off on the wrong foot. I mentioned that I had been a 4th dan at one point and you fired back that there are lots of folks out there that shouldn't have their rank. Perhaps I simply misunderstood you. You do seem at least as much condecending as I sound sarcastic. I do fail to see what either of our climbing abilitys or even martial art abilitys has to do with this conversation. It was a world that I was part of for a long time and chose to walk away from. What I may have been trying to say but did a poor job of by being a sarcastic prick was the following.
Many traditional martial artist are insulated by their systems and would get a rather rude awakening if they mixed it up with a more rounded individual who was in top condition.. Not talking fluff movie stars>
Many systems have too many techniques many of which do not work outside of their own dojos. These systems would bennifit from shedding the fluff and spending more time on the things that do work.. Do nothing that is of no use.
I know this one is profileing and that rankles many folks feathers but often there is a lot of truth in profileing
A large percentage of high level martial artists seem to be struggleing with ego. Acting humble is not the same as being humble. One of my observations over the years was that the level of respect that is given rank makes it easy to let your ego creep up on you if one is not carefull. Most of us are not as moral as we think we are or would like to be. Try to get through a day without judgeing anyone and perhaps you will understand a bit better where I an am going with this. BTW I had this ego discussion with my 7th dan cousin who trains in Okinawa a fair bit and has had several of his tests there. He whole heartedly agreed with me.. and not just to be polite. They really do like playing the game with the Americans. Not that that is a bad thing but it is what it is.
Lastly I do feel that MMA has exposed the achilies heel of many of the striking arts. Without a good takedown defense and at least some level of proficiancy in the ground game all the stripes on your belt mean absolutly nothing in the real world.
Nick
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Oct 13, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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Trad, I really can't argue with you on many of those points, when
you put them that way. And the more reasonable tone helps.
But this humility issue... Certainly you are correct
that there are very unhumble people. Humility is a strange
thing. The minute you think you've got it you've lost it.
I was always told, in younger years especially, that I had
a big ego. In fact I was pretty much just a frightened kid very
inept at the social graces. But it's a gross generalization
if one were to suggest that a lack of humility among
martial artists is the case in some universal way.
I do know some very genuinely humble people, and I'm not talking
about those who say they are humble. One is Mr.
Ohshima, an amazingly gifted individual and amazingly generous
and humble. Sure, weirdos exist all over the place. And sure, the
average choreographed martial artist will be in deep water in the
"real" world of the UFC, but there are plenty of very high level
people who don't compete but who would have no trouble holding their
own and better in any situation... Tom Muzila has been on the cover
of Black Belt Magazine something like fifteen times (it's not a magazine
I like, for the most part), and he is one of those guys who is
a kind of national treasure, a humble guy who has
body-guarded many of the top Hollywood stars, just as a side job....
Dingus, don't get too carried away. I mean, I find your
passion and enthusiasm addictive and enjoyable,
but Stephen Segal is no pushover.
He's not the ultimate master he has more or less portrayed himself, but
don't think he couldn't show some very good fighters a thing or two.
He's just a little too choreographed, as are many martial artists.
He hired my friend Muzila to play stunt roles, and though Muzila
was vastly superior skillwise, Muzila always would be killed in the
film by one of Segal's swift techniques!! We have laughed at that.
(I edited this last post, as I had fired it off in a big rush
before I had to leave and made some significant typos).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 09:12am PT
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Patrick, Again I apologize for my tone at the start of this thread. I was in internet mode and simply fired off a post and then dug a hole trying to prop it up. Poorly played on my part.
Back to the Op and my original point that boxing is finished.
20-30 years ago I worked in a restarunte/bar that had cable TV. We watched Tues night fights on ESPN every week and often there was more boxing on the weekends. Though I was training Karate at the time we loved that boxing. There were a few amatuer boxers and one pro training out of our gym/dojo and when we boxed those guys schooled us karate guys pretty bad (with the exception of sensei Marello)but we loved it. Leanord, Duran,Hearns, Hagler, mancini, Chaves,Hollyfield,Holms, Tyson etc. etc. etc all captavated us. We loved our boxing even though we were karate guys. Three years ago I had a Dish installed and had TV again for two years and then had it turned off. No more boxing. It was like it had vanished. If you searched long and hard enough through the 600 channels of crap you might find some old re runs or maybe olympic trials. MMA was everywhere! I got so conditioned to watching MMA that when I did watch boxing it bored me. I found myself coaching the boxer to hit him with a flying knee next time he tries to clynch! That was my most recent experience with main stream media. Pac man was the only new Boxer with any real main stream exposure. MMA fighters were everywhere selling energy drinks and workout gear and showcased fighting pretty much daily.
Nick
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 09:14am PT
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Best, It seems that you were a top 10 boxer BINTD ? That is pretty darn cool! I take it that you are also a climber?
What weight division?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Oct 14, 2011 - 10:10am PT
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i once knocked a guys tooth
out at a gas station.
i still might go to jail over that one.
keep it in the ring, folks.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 14, 2011 - 10:33am PT
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Someone brought up the deaths in boxing Vs deaths in MMA. The following is a theory that I have had for decades.
The standing eight count is the cause in most of those deaths. You stun a guy, you are about to finish him off and win the fight. The reff stops the fight and allows the guy to partialy recover and stay in the fight. At that time he sustains more dammage. If it warrents a standing eight that means that one fighter is winning and the other loseing. let the winner fininsh the fight or call the fight with a TKO. Instead they let the guy continue and get scrambled. It could also be argued that the 10 count does basicly the same thing. Gives the guy who just lost the fight a 2nd chance. In MMA when you get a knockdown instead of giveing the guy a chance to recover they pounce and try to finish the fight. If they are sucessfull the fight is over quickly without sustaining as much prolonged dammage.
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