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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Yes, the ranger was there on the NF trail friday trimming the bushes below the E ledges & checking permits. Really nice guy. Didn't see anyone on the way down monday but it was more or less dark. Due to the amount of WAG bags left (8 on the trail and 4 at iceberg) I agree there needs to be education/enforcement/regulation of some sort, as much as I can't stand it. Of the ones on the trail 5 were torn up/knawed by varmints I assume. My only guess is the "city folk" or whatever you want to call them plan to pick it up on the way down...but it's not there when they get back, or in condition nobody wants to touch. Packed out 2 that were in good shape, f-ing nasty. Carrying someone else's shite? If they can educate people about the bears I would think they could do the same with the WAG.
Ran into 1 party on Mithril & a family w/ 3 young kids(7-9) doing EF on saturday, nobody on EF or EB on sunday. The MR had ~20 people sunday. Sounded like a bowling alley. So it seems most are hikers to me.
Plug for the Alabama Hills Cafe; great food, bakery & owner operated.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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I been up there a few times and there's nothing there.
Just rocks and dust and a lot of sky.
Why waste your time in that Whitney area?
Go to the corner of Compton and Crenshaw in east LA.
That's where the action is and no permit required ....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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Plug for the Alabama Hills Cafe; great food, bakery & owner operated.
Yeah, we checked that out for the first time last month while doing some laundry. I liked it. They should make you get a permit for those cinnamon rolls.
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lupo
Ice climber
MT
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Aug 18, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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I'm trying really hard to envison The Modern Amoerican Entitlement Brigade and come up with a tune that would be worth marching along with?
Any help here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP8nGNbk7oQ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 18, 2010 - 08:52am PT
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Werner....thanks for the hot tip about crenshaw....! should i bring crampons and an ice axe? rj
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Aug 18, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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Werner, you are right but your geography is totally screwed up. Compton is a city and Crenshaw is a district and a boulevard. They are NOT in East LA they are in South LA. Actually Compton is it's own city. You've obviously been out in the woods too long.
The Whitney Zone is a lot like Los Angeles. Be ready to share and enjoy with many others.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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rick, at the beginning of the fossil falls thread you reported every half-baked bit of information you came up with to show people on ST you were johnny-on-the-spot making telephone calls. it was ridiculous the way your version of things changed by the hour.
you at least owe us a report for follow-up. that you have not done so tells me you're probably embarrassed by your lack of results. that is what comes of acting solo and trying to rely on coffee shop acquaintances. if you're serious about becoming an activist in climbers' interests--and god knows we need them because the access fund seems worthless except in high profile easy wins--learn to involve others.
i probably would've gotten my demanding ass to one of your meetings, and i could well have brought some real friends of fossil falls with me, but my psychic powers have not developed to the point where i can show up without being given a time and place.
what's missing? we talked about some of it on the thread. i'm sure you never pursued any of the following:
--checking california laws which recognize established access and history of public use
--fair criticism of the BLM for developing fossil falls with signage, interpretive kiosk, restroom and campsites you now have to pay for, without bothering to define property lines
--a complaint to the inyo county sheriff about the little lake ranch security patroller's rudeness, physical intimidation with an off road vehicle, and his threat to "get a gun" in face of complete cooperation on the part of the two climbers
--the appropriateness of the activities of the little lake ranch itself, which should be named the little lake duck hunting club, adjacent to busy state highway 395
--contacting the SCMA, which, together with its predecessor, the sierra club RCS, has used fossil falls annually for its rock safety class graduation, probably before that hunt club even showed up. the SCMA, of which i was a founding member, is generally willing to help in issues which concern it with both contributions and people to get involved. they used to have a pretty good real estate lawyer among the membership.
--involving others outside the climbing realm, a key element in this kind of diplomacy. the reason stony point is now a los angeles city park is that climbers acted along with boys scouts, community history groups and horseback riders, getting the whole city council to override the mayor's veto at the time. fossil falls is an important geohistory site. there's lots of people who should be involved, especially if the nextdoor neighbor is being persnickety and threatening to get a gun. east side is about getting along with neighbors, rick, not shooting at them, and real eastsiders recognize the importance of their economic lifeblood streaming up and down that highway. the wyoming redneck crap-on-outsiders attitude doesn't wash here.
rick, you do lots for the climbing community, but anyone trying to do something like this all by himself is sure to get in it over his head. the damage may already have been done. decisions appear to have been made without full advocacy of the things i mention. such things need to be pushed early in the game.
i'm also posting this on that FF thread where you should have been telling us what you've been up to all along.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:42am PT
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Yes - but not much.
Funny thing is all the great rock you walk by on the way to the classic routes. If I were a local, I'd be exploring all of that and leave the more well traveled routes for trips with out-of-town guests.
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jeff_m
climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Does a permit cost money?
No, actually, the permit is free when you walk in to get one at the Interagency Center. If you make a reservation, then there is a $15 per person fee that covers the administrative costs of their whole reservation/lottery machine.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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wow, this is great. Got my first super topo argument started.
Think im gonna try to get some extra time off and get down there early enough to get a permit. Our whole thing is trying to spend some time out there (i.e. not trying to do C2C, especially since were trying to link to climbs), and it doesnt sound like anyones getting through without a piece of paper.
Also, I agree about always getting (or trying) to get a permit. Especially to show that the lands are getting used and that more money should be allocated to them. Whenever I go anywhere, even if its just filling out a drop box slip, I always do it for this very reason.
Im just frustrated that me and my buddy really want to do this link up, and although we live only 7 hours away, the logistics require 48 hours of travel and bureaucracy, days off work, and a completely unpredicatable results to do so. Especially since we are being lumped in with a different usage catagory and, to some extent, a different trail head.
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jeff_m
climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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On a related note, keep an eye out for these things:
This one was tucked away and monitoring the North Fork prior to the combining of Main Trail/NF quotas. Draw your own conclusions.
EDIT TO ADD:
Oh, and in support of Chief's statement about getting walk-in permits during the week, I have yet to get trumped. (Only once in 10 years and that was walking in Saturday in July for a Sunday permit.)
Also to clarify, the quotas on the North Fork have only been affected for DAY HIKES. Overnight permits (4 reservable, 6 walk-in per day) are the same as they have been for years.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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You can mess with the statistics by waving a stick in front of it a few thousand times.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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big brother is watching you--on the trail, at the stoplights. it's all for your own good, of course.
and if a fighter jet from china lake happens to buzz your butt in all scoffage of the law, you'll get to hear "the sound of freedom".
btw, i have no prob with reining in the pressure on the whitney area. pretty mirror lake, before regulation came into play, was described as a "wilderness slum". but there's no substitute for real rangers meeting the public and understanding what's going on. i might have conceded the point that that may actually be happening here, until this electronic surveillance showed up. rick likes to talk about the spirituality of the climbing experience. something about this kind of crap just seems to scuttle all of that. rangers have to get back to being human again, and that's just not federal policy any more.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
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Interesting read everyone. Carry on.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
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To Jeremy Ross: Alright, I knew somebody had to appreciate that post. My faith in humans is restored.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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fats, i'd be interested in your experience. i've given up talking to my own congressman.
as climbers we have to admit that we're a rather narrow interest group. on the other hand, the professionals in NPS/FS/BLM are plenty familiar with us and the issues we're involved with. unless they're really screwing up--and it appears the FS may have done so in the station fire down here--no congressman is going to get involved between local rangers and the dept. of interior or agriculture.
i've always felt our best shot is local meetings, the kind rick seems to be having quite secretively all by his self-appointed lonesome. the local chief ranger's job is to engage the public and hear them out and then determine the best course. that WAS the way it used to work, and it used to work well, but it seemed the big flap in josh during the 80s made them gunshy of climbers. all i can say is if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Aug 18, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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I used to love the whole "Whitney experience" but recently things have changed.
I used to be all over the C to C thing but with the new Day Permits, my work and location won't allow for that as much. Bummer for me. But whatever I still got psyched when my buddy and I made plans to climb the EB over the 4th of July weekend. In January we sent a check and the form in for that weekend. We got our spot! But they moved the start date back one day. By the time we noticed it was too late to change it. We both tried, and even-though they got the date wrong we couldn't change it. We are talking Months in advance & they can't kick down the extra day!? No break here but we are still totally motivated. So after weeks of training and acclimating we go up and see if we can get a day pass for that Sat. & we score!!! So now we have overnight passes for Sunday night on and a Saturday day pass. TWO passes!!! Cost us $30 too. Cool! We load up our packs, 55# ea. then we hike all the way to Upper BS. That is where Ranger D(?) looks at our permits and sends us back down. He could have cut us a break at this point. "No problem, I say, we will set up a tent and put our gear inside then hang our food and be on our way." Since we will be back the next day on our multi-day pass, I figure this will be a pain but since we won't have 110# of stuff to carry back down then back up, it will be a good workout. Ranger D says NO! You must take all of your stuff back down to the car! He says there is NO cashing gear or anything else up there! He says it is is written on the permit. He could have been a human being at this point and cut us a break but NO. Even with the whole story above, and two permits etc. Plus the fact that we were totally wiped out, he still sent us down with all our gear. Later as we enjoyed our Burger specials at the Portal Store, I took out my permit and read the back. It says "No cashing gear For longer than 24 hrs." WTF!!??!! AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! We got hosed by that ranger!!! I wish I had the fitness to go back up but I was so Fn mad I just drove home.
I still can't get motivated to go back. Job well done Ranger D!!
WAAAAAH!!! Crybaby moment over.
Wes
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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sorry rick, your mishandling of this matter won't go away with that "never saw you" line. i live in los angeles and we have our own issues close by. if you can organize an effective meeting of land managers, landowners and climbers--and i would suggest some other interested organizations as well--i'd be happy to show up and speak my piece. don't forget to send me a note, though. your telepathic signals just don't come through.
i don't get many member-to-member emails, but i got a couple right away when i started talking back to you. here's a little feedback from the people you think you're representing:
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Good on yah Tony for your excellent and very humorous analogy of the skunk. I for one, am very tired of his self-righteousness and military approach to ST. I intend on sparring with him one of these days but i won't begin until I am in the right mood.
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Thank you for talking back to The Chief. The more and more I read his sh#t, the more I hate that guy.
"You guys are all pussies, it's so easy to get a permit. I just ask my butt buddy Dave to save me a permit for tomorrow when we're throwing back Buds at the local waterin hole, then I go pick it up the next day at 4pm, after a hard day of not working."
F*#k that guy. It's so goddamned hard for working people that live far away to do this stuff as is, the permit system jacks up the difficulty 10 fold. Weekends are obviously a cluster, so even if I relent and go during the week, I have to burn an ENTIRE vacation day for the purpose of driving to the east side by a certain time to get a piece of paper that says I can "walk in the woods", which I could easily handle on this thing called "the internet".
I'd go on, but I don't have time now. But thanks. It doesn't matter though, no matter what argument you'd make, the Chief would call you an as#@&%e and tell you it's "bullshet" that the earth is round, because his C/O in the service told him it was flat.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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If I and millions of other can use our home printers to print
Boarding Passes
to get on multimillion dollar jets, and fly safely seems we should be able to print out a Whitney Zone Permit to just walk on rocks.
The use info would still be collected which is a big $$$ deal for the USFS.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 03:40am PT
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Tony Bird said:
you at least owe us
You santimonious sack of crap! Where do you get off with that attitude? You want to affect what is going on, get your FAT ASS up there, and start doing things. Harassing people who ARE doing things is BS!
Where is your offer of reimbursement? Where is your offer of letters of support? You act like Chief OWED you, personally, emails detailing everything he was doing, PRETENDING that you'd go up there and attend meetings? I'm calling you out!
You're OWED???????
What are you, an infant?
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