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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 17, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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So, not that I would EVER climb a rock, walk a trail, or wipe my own ass without the governments permission. But if I were to say, try to climb in the russel whitney area without a permit, what am i looking at as far as staffing in the area? Times, days, stopping points? Anyone?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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RANGER DANGER!!!
They can smell out those who tread the path without paperwork.
Get a day permit, then if you get stopped on day two, create an epic.
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Murf
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Chief - Haven't been up NFLP this year, but have for the prior 5 straight. I have never *once* seen a ranger checking permits (granted the day use hasn't been around for long). Are you giving us the party line or have you been there and been checked?
Murf
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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DO NOT give the government another reason to regulate us. If it requires a permit...get a permit. Like the Chief says 0 tolerance as it should be.
Peace
The Chief don't talk schit! Day use has been around for a while, long enough for us to know about it.
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Murf
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Easy Ron, the *required* day use permits have only been around for a year or two, they were a demonstration before that. I suspect that is the reason for the heavy concentration of enforcement, trying to reinforce the use. I'm not a super heavy Sierra climber, but I've never once (10 trips?) gotten asked to see my permit (which I've always had when required, thank you very much).
Chief, you hitting the 11am lotto for your passes?
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Murf
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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How does the system work for the guide services?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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Two weeks ago on a Monday I was asked for a permit at Upper Boy Scout Lake.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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Chief, Totally understand they are just doing their duties. And i am not a hater of the rangers at all, and in fact good for them. But rather I am not a big fan of the organization they are working for (the G.D. government) and the permiting system which, unless you plan 6 months in advance and/or dont work m-f, makes climbing a mountain impossible.
We all get screwed by the man on a daily basis and we're all told what we can and cant do by people who have no stake in our lives. I do not like being told I cant go climb (or hike, or fish, or whatever).
Keep your laws off my harness.
That being said, I could just go somewhere else, but I got an idea, I only have one shot to do it this year, and once its in my head, it needs to happen...for the sake of everyones safety around me.
hmmm.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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And that was stream of consciousness writting by the end there Chief. Im not saying that im not listening to ya!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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It's funny, but despite all these permit issues, I've never been told no.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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Budmiller, you said:
"We all get screwed by the man on a daily basis and we're all told what we can and cant do by people who have no stake in our lives. I do not like being told I cant go climb (or hike, or fish, or whatever).
Keep your laws off my harness."
I sympathize. I've never had a problem with permits in the Whitney area, but I've gotten pretty frustrated with difficulties getting permits for Temple Crag and the Palisades.
But what's a wilderness manager to do when the numbers get so big as to be out of control? Is 100 people on top of Whitney per day too many? 250? 500? More? Should the Feds allow unlimited back country use and let each person among thousands just suffer the crowds?
Sorry if my question is a little off the topic of your original post. But I think the Feds are in a no-win situation trying to balance numbers against the quality of the experience. What would you do if it was your decision to make?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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The Chief said:
"I don't like the law that states I can't drink and then beat the sh#t outta those I deem requiring my wrath."
Totally in character and a complete crack-up. Thanks for the laugh. (Not that I disagree, in fact I pretty much feel the same way - I just might not be so blatant about it).
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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I'm actually glad budmiller posted this topic up. Funny thing is, I've been thinking the same thing. In the last year or two, I've grown interested in blasting out some of the routes in the Whitney/Russel area in a day. Unfortunately this whole day-permitting thing is a real bummer.
If I drive up to the Portal at like 3am and hike up to Whitney and to do the East Face, am I going to get busted by a ranger at like 5 am on the trail? Or I'm gonna get ticketed on the way down? that sucks...
Still, I've been tempted...
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apogee
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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"We all get screwed by the man on a daily basis"
Victim mentality at it's finest.
It ain't all about you, Bud. Or me. Or any individual person.
It's a society, which means there are other people in it, and sometimes you won't get what you want the way you want.
It pisses me off, too, when my access to certain areas is impacted by regulations, but I'm also well aware of the impacts that are occurring out there, and why many (not all, though) of those regulations make sense. It's not hard to figure out ways to work within the system, and make things work for you. There's plenty of beta here to help you do that.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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Given all the wags bags I've seen up there that lazy ass climbers (cuz' let's face it, who else would it be) fail to pack out, I think the restrictions are a good thing for the area even if they mess with our schedules or make those last minute trips difficult or sometimes impossible. As climbing and the outdoors have gotten more popular, that's just the nature of the beast.
As far as permits go, it's probably like Murphy's Law. If you get one, you'll probably see no one; if you don't have one, you'll probably get stopped by the man.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Ok , so 7 trips up the N. Fork lone pine trail , never had a permit , never seen a ranger . I too cannot stand the idea of being told , "No , sorry you can't go up there , no permits left " . As an individual , I know I will not engage in any of the behaviors that might be the reason a permit system was started for that area , I know I will pick up any trash I see , leave it better than I found , camp in previously used areas , not pee next to streams etc. etc.
That being said ,
I also understand the Whitney area is used very heavily , and I am just starting to realize and accept that more rules and regulations are inevitable because a lot of people that go up there to do not have any sort of wilderness ethic , and end up trashing it . I don't like the hassle that often comes with getting permits , but am becoming less and less resistant to the idea. Maybe I'm getting old , gonna turn 30 this year .
I'd say you'd probably be fine with going up there w/o a permit , especially if you camp at iceberg since that is farther away from the trailhead , but leave early or late to avoid rangers , and don't be shocked if you see one and get a ticket .
PS. I have been ticketed for not having an overnight permit on Mt. Tallac in tahoe , it was like a 150 dollar fine i think .
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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I follow laws because I think they are right, not because I'm afraid of getting caught. And this permit system is bogus.
They stuck permits for NFLP in with the quota for The Whitney Trail. That's lame. The trail needs a quota, absolutely. But NFLP was fine as it was. Have a permit system for NFLP so you can be sure people know the rules is great, but don't have a quota lumping them in with a trail with WAY more traffic.
That said, there's probably a decent chance of getting an unused permit. It just adds an extra day or two to your trip.
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TMO
Trad climber
Puyallup, WA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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I, by nature, like to avoid being charged (or wait in line)to enjoy OUR natural surroundings. But plain and simple, some areas get loved to death. That is why we need/have a system in place to keep that from happening. From time to time I push the limits of a "day" pass ;-) but can appreciate the enforcement of the rules. If busted I would gladly pay up, but try to avoid that situation for the most part.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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Just wait till Obama gets hold of the Federal lands!!!
or...
If you have an allergy to Rangers, there are still oceans of unclimbed Granite in other parts of the Sierra that are weekslong ranger free.
quote Horace Greeley.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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Chief , any idea what the fine is for not having a permit ?
Good to know the ranger often bases himself out of Iceberg lake. Dually noted.
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