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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 17, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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So, not that I would EVER climb a rock, walk a trail, or wipe my own ass without the governments permission. But if I were to say, try to climb in the russel whitney area without a permit, what am i looking at as far as staffing in the area? Times, days, stopping points? Anyone?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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RANGER DANGER!!!
They can smell out those who tread the path without paperwork.
Get a day permit, then if you get stopped on day two, create an epic.
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Murf
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Chief - Haven't been up NFLP this year, but have for the prior 5 straight. I have never *once* seen a ranger checking permits (granted the day use hasn't been around for long). Are you giving us the party line or have you been there and been checked?
Murf
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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DO NOT give the government another reason to regulate us. If it requires a permit...get a permit. Like the Chief says 0 tolerance as it should be.
Peace
The Chief don't talk schit! Day use has been around for a while, long enough for us to know about it.
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Murf
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Easy Ron, the *required* day use permits have only been around for a year or two, they were a demonstration before that. I suspect that is the reason for the heavy concentration of enforcement, trying to reinforce the use. I'm not a super heavy Sierra climber, but I've never once (10 trips?) gotten asked to see my permit (which I've always had when required, thank you very much).
Chief, you hitting the 11am lotto for your passes?
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Murf
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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How does the system work for the guide services?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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Two weeks ago on a Monday I was asked for a permit at Upper Boy Scout Lake.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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Chief, Totally understand they are just doing their duties. And i am not a hater of the rangers at all, and in fact good for them. But rather I am not a big fan of the organization they are working for (the G.D. government) and the permiting system which, unless you plan 6 months in advance and/or dont work m-f, makes climbing a mountain impossible.
We all get screwed by the man on a daily basis and we're all told what we can and cant do by people who have no stake in our lives. I do not like being told I cant go climb (or hike, or fish, or whatever).
Keep your laws off my harness.
That being said, I could just go somewhere else, but I got an idea, I only have one shot to do it this year, and once its in my head, it needs to happen...for the sake of everyones safety around me.
hmmm.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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And that was stream of consciousness writting by the end there Chief. Im not saying that im not listening to ya!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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It's funny, but despite all these permit issues, I've never been told no.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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Budmiller, you said:
"We all get screwed by the man on a daily basis and we're all told what we can and cant do by people who have no stake in our lives. I do not like being told I cant go climb (or hike, or fish, or whatever).
Keep your laws off my harness."
I sympathize. I've never had a problem with permits in the Whitney area, but I've gotten pretty frustrated with difficulties getting permits for Temple Crag and the Palisades.
But what's a wilderness manager to do when the numbers get so big as to be out of control? Is 100 people on top of Whitney per day too many? 250? 500? More? Should the Feds allow unlimited back country use and let each person among thousands just suffer the crowds?
Sorry if my question is a little off the topic of your original post. But I think the Feds are in a no-win situation trying to balance numbers against the quality of the experience. What would you do if it was your decision to make?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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The Chief said:
"I don't like the law that states I can't drink and then beat the sh#t outta those I deem requiring my wrath."
Totally in character and a complete crack-up. Thanks for the laugh. (Not that I disagree, in fact I pretty much feel the same way - I just might not be so blatant about it).
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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I'm actually glad budmiller posted this topic up. Funny thing is, I've been thinking the same thing. In the last year or two, I've grown interested in blasting out some of the routes in the Whitney/Russel area in a day. Unfortunately this whole day-permitting thing is a real bummer.
If I drive up to the Portal at like 3am and hike up to Whitney and to do the East Face, am I going to get busted by a ranger at like 5 am on the trail? Or I'm gonna get ticketed on the way down? that sucks...
Still, I've been tempted...
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apogee
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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"We all get screwed by the man on a daily basis"
Victim mentality at it's finest.
It ain't all about you, Bud. Or me. Or any individual person.
It's a society, which means there are other people in it, and sometimes you won't get what you want the way you want.
It pisses me off, too, when my access to certain areas is impacted by regulations, but I'm also well aware of the impacts that are occurring out there, and why many (not all, though) of those regulations make sense. It's not hard to figure out ways to work within the system, and make things work for you. There's plenty of beta here to help you do that.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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Given all the wags bags I've seen up there that lazy ass climbers (cuz' let's face it, who else would it be) fail to pack out, I think the restrictions are a good thing for the area even if they mess with our schedules or make those last minute trips difficult or sometimes impossible. As climbing and the outdoors have gotten more popular, that's just the nature of the beast.
As far as permits go, it's probably like Murphy's Law. If you get one, you'll probably see no one; if you don't have one, you'll probably get stopped by the man.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Ok , so 7 trips up the N. Fork lone pine trail , never had a permit , never seen a ranger . I too cannot stand the idea of being told , "No , sorry you can't go up there , no permits left " . As an individual , I know I will not engage in any of the behaviors that might be the reason a permit system was started for that area , I know I will pick up any trash I see , leave it better than I found , camp in previously used areas , not pee next to streams etc. etc.
That being said ,
I also understand the Whitney area is used very heavily , and I am just starting to realize and accept that more rules and regulations are inevitable because a lot of people that go up there to do not have any sort of wilderness ethic , and end up trashing it . I don't like the hassle that often comes with getting permits , but am becoming less and less resistant to the idea. Maybe I'm getting old , gonna turn 30 this year .
I'd say you'd probably be fine with going up there w/o a permit , especially if you camp at iceberg since that is farther away from the trailhead , but leave early or late to avoid rangers , and don't be shocked if you see one and get a ticket .
PS. I have been ticketed for not having an overnight permit on Mt. Tallac in tahoe , it was like a 150 dollar fine i think .
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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I follow laws because I think they are right, not because I'm afraid of getting caught. And this permit system is bogus.
They stuck permits for NFLP in with the quota for The Whitney Trail. That's lame. The trail needs a quota, absolutely. But NFLP was fine as it was. Have a permit system for NFLP so you can be sure people know the rules is great, but don't have a quota lumping them in with a trail with WAY more traffic.
That said, there's probably a decent chance of getting an unused permit. It just adds an extra day or two to your trip.
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TMO
Trad climber
Puyallup, WA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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I, by nature, like to avoid being charged (or wait in line)to enjoy OUR natural surroundings. But plain and simple, some areas get loved to death. That is why we need/have a system in place to keep that from happening. From time to time I push the limits of a "day" pass ;-) but can appreciate the enforcement of the rules. If busted I would gladly pay up, but try to avoid that situation for the most part.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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Just wait till Obama gets hold of the Federal lands!!!
or...
If you have an allergy to Rangers, there are still oceans of unclimbed Granite in other parts of the Sierra that are weekslong ranger free.
quote Horace Greeley.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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Chief , any idea what the fine is for not having a permit ?
Good to know the ranger often bases himself out of Iceberg lake. Dually noted.
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Gene
Social climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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*O/T Alert*
Hey, The Chief,
Do you have any info on the Williamson area BHS closures? Has that situation been resolved?
Thanks,
Gene
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Gene
Social climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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Let's hope the right decision is made. Thanks for the update and your efforts on this.
g
*END O/T ALERT*
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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It sounds like everyone one is pretty much on the same page here as far as "it sucks and it pisses me off...but also, it makes sense and is neccesary." And if you take a step back and look at the bigger picture, thats definitly true.
But The Fet's comment about the north fork and the technical routes being lumped in witht the general whitney portal madness is totall correct. Yes, the whitney trail probably sees 100 boyscout troops every week,but not nearly as many people are heading up the east face, harding route, or (in my case) Russell.
To a certain extent I am just pissed, and bitching because I am pissed(I dont know about Victim mentality). But for those of us that dont have the luxury (and it is a luxury) to wander up to the ranger station after 4 ocklock 9 times a year, mid week, it makes it DAMNED hard to climb.
Reasonable or not (permit/restriction system), I work within "the system" and abide by all the rules, suck it up and am 100% complacent to a society/culture im not a big fan off, office work, and whatever else all week long. Its definitly completely against my nature, but I do it, and I do it with a smile. Theres just something about the fact that even for the miniscule amount of time im able to get away from it all and actually live, its still regulated and suffocated by written law. Whether this feelings warranted or not is beyond me, but I cant help the frustration....well beyond drinking beer (temp solution).
Thats just a feeling thats been building up in general, "city stir crazy" I guess. Maybe its the reason I became fixated getting these particular climbs done right now.
But go ahead guys, I can already tell who the people on this thread are who are going to rip this statement to shreds.
And to ED Bannister, yeah, I TOTALY hear ya,but someimes you get an itch and need to scratch it.
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goon
Trad climber
bishop
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Aug 17, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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These rangers may be doing their "job;" but, remember that our great forest supervisor decided but a couple of years ago that combining the permit system for both the main Whitney trail and the North Fork trail was a good idea - never mind the fact that it is two different user groups who use these different access points to Whitney.
I sympathize with the arguments of trash, WAG bags, and amount of peopel etc - but really - requiring those of us who wish to push ourselves, engaging in long one day ascents on technical climbs now need to deal with the mayhem of the permitting for the main Whitney trail is truly beyond my sense of comprehension of fairness.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Chief, I hear you about how available the permits are, but that's really only an option for the eastside locals or semi-retired. When you're a freeway flyer from LA or thereabouts and you've got maybe a day and a half off, it can be really hard to get there before 4 pm if you're game to do Mt. Russell's E. Arete the following day.
Having said that, I still think it's a good idea to require permits for that area. The area is just too fragile to permit alot of impact lest it begin to look like an outhouse relatively quickly. However, it would have been nice if the forest service would have distinguished between the very different users for the Whitney trail and North Fork.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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chief is in the habit of saluting anything with more stripes than he has. once it was a dead skunk in the middle of the road.
(ducking)
um, whitney is overused. highest mountain in the lower 48, everyone wants the t-shirt. lotsa projects elsewhere, but do what you must.
chief still believes what he's been told about ours being a system of laws. i learned that in the jaycee creed about the same time. "i believe in a government of laws, not of men". a fine thing. i still believe in it. just doesn't correspond to what goes on in this country. if you've felt the noose tightening, you're not the only one.
the "demonstration programs" are just a way of training the public. have you ever known one that wasn't demonstrated to be absolutely necessary? the more submissive we get, the more they take away. the adventure pass program down here is a shameful, unconstitutional, illegal law, contrary to everything we learn in our civics classes, but they shove it down our throats with the long arm of the federal government. they've got their rangerettes out every saturday and sunday ticketing every little car, super efficient, don't miss a one. but when they got a call from their top firefighters this time last year, they wrung their hands for hours, i guess to pinch a few bureaucratic pennies. come on down, chief. take a look at the burnout delivered by the wondrous forest service to los angeles' greatest outdoor resource. fyi, this is under congressional investigation, which is probably the best way to assure that nothing will be done.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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Some of us out-of-staters spending bucks to fly in want to know that we will get a permit. We won't get there 9 times in our lifetime and want to climb just once or twice. So I applied for a permit months ago and got my 8th choice. We wanted to add a person to our party at the last minute - none available. He was not successful in the 11 am lottery, but did pick one up at 4 pm.
I stayed primarily at Upper Boy Scout. I ran into ranger Dan on day three. He was going up to stay at Iceberg, and I was going down to Upper Boy Scout. He did ask to see my permit. I complied and asked him for tissue or wipes as I just had a bloddy nose from all that dry sierra air. It is a whole lot more humid in the WA Cascades. He was very pleasant. We exchanged weather information. In the conversation, it was obvious that he checked various sites at Upper Boy Scout, but he did not run into the other members of my party or see my tent. We were off to the left of the lake.
A couple days later, I saw him again coming down the Mountaineer's Route at about 13,400'. He recognized me and happily told me that the weather was gorgeous - no chance of afternoon storms,
So the rangers are out and about, not just trolling at the trailhead. They were decent enough to be helpful. There were no wag bags lying about Upper Boy Scout while I was there.
The folks at the administrative office - they were not the most engaging. They did not even offer that you could go back at 4 to claim an unused permit. We just decided to give it one more chance since my friend is tiny and is a poor pack mule.
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goon
Trad climber
bishop
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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Chief, as Fat Dad noted those of us with full time jobs just don't have the luxury of being at the forest service office at 4pm on a Friday afternoon - we have to work. Yes, i could go down on a Saturday, but, honestly, i would rather do my long day on Saturday since I am generally at work at 7 or 7:30 a.m.
I agree with many on the limits - ie there being too many people on Whitney, but combining the permitting process for the main trail and the North Fork trail just doesn't make sense. Remember, all those who want to go up the North Fork trail don't necessarily want to climb Whitney - it is not the only peak back there!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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don't think for a minute it has anything to do with service to the public. if that were true, you'd be able to get a day permit on friday evening or early saturday morning, to accommodate the largely weekending public. you're expected to take friday off and lose a day's pay for a piece of paper, as many of us benefitless people in the private sector have gotten so used to, so the ranger can show up at work 8 am monday and do nothing in an air-conditioned office. you can get your boarding pass off the internet, why not this?
those rangers wouldn't be on the trails if they weren't enforcing. rangers used to do what their name implies--range. you'd find them any old place odd times in the backcountry. usually it would result in a pleasant and informative chat, and you'd feel you were being taken care of. voluntary cooperation without a trace of negative feelings was the great flower of those times. today it's a thing of the past.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
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Many of the people I spoke with staying on the mountain intended to climb both Whitney and Russell. One party was just camping and not intending to get to the top of anything.
It seemed that there were just enough people in the NF. A couple more would not have hurt the experience, twice as many would have detracted.
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goon
Trad climber
bishop
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Seamstress - i know for me personally, i don't have an issue w/ permitting/quotas for overnight trips. It is the day trips for North Fork that I have the issue with competing with people doing the main Whitney trail. As i said before, and as you noted - not everyone that is back there is there to climb Whitney.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
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my experience is so cal and it ain't bullshet. i know a few rangers myself. some of the best ones are glad to retire and get the hell out of the law enforcement circus this has become in recent years.
seamstress's experience is a rare example of the way things used to be. now they love to lord it over you on horseback or showing the guns on their hips. if you've ever read "the last season", you might get a flavor of the best of what a ranger should be about. i don't think it's entirely coincidental that randy morgenson's death came at the time of this sea change.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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you know chief, i really don't give a rat's ass about your coffee pals. the problems people deal with are just a little bigger than the pleasant little corner of nowhere you've managed to situate yourself in and bullhorn to supertopo about. if these guys are so great, tell 'em to stay up friday night, get up early on saturday and take monday, tuesday and wednesday off. they'd serve the public a thousand times better that way. if any one of them knows the first thing about computers, tell him to get their permit routine on a website system so people can plan what they're doing a little better than 20 minutes ahead of hitting the trail.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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These rangers may be doing their "job;" but, remember that our great forest supervisor decided but a couple of years ago that combining the permit system for both the main Whitney trail and the North Fork trail was a good idea - never mind the fact that it is two different user groups who use these different access points to Whitney.
It's not two different user groups. Whitney's main trail is a huge magnet. It gets more popular every year. When people were getting shut out of the lottery, they started going up the Mountaineer's Route. Lots of them. Not the most skilled group, either.
Talk to the gal that owns Elevation, she makes a killing selling ice axes to rookies coming out to climb Whitney.
The impact of all this is what caused the North Fork to get thrown in the Whitney Zone.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I'm trying really hard to envison, "The Modern Amoerican Entitlement Brigade" and come up with a tune that would be worth marching along with?
Any help here?
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Well GUY, fact remains that 99% of the time you can go to the LP Visitors Center after 4PM and grab an unclaimed day permit for the NFLP section most any time during the week.. fact. Did it nine times without any delay last summer for each of my one day C-C's.
The Chief,
That's good to know. It might just come in handy this September when I finally get a few days off...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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i spend lots of time on the east side, just not on a daily basis. the privileges you guys have are part of this country not being a government of laws. pay $5 to park alongside a state highway in the national forest next time you get sleepy on a long drive.
you like to pose as a climber's climber, chief, but you knuckled down and then backed down when you discovered the lies you were being told about the tooling at fossil falls. your busybodying isn't appreciated by everyone on here.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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if you've been doing all that, you've kept pretty mum about it. i check ST every day and the fossil falls thread dropped off the radar long ago.
probably you're trying to keep climbers out of the loop. good idea because they were hopping mad about the rude, if not illegal, treatment they got, and you came pretty close to calling them liars.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Aug 17, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Checking passes and permits while holding a machine gun is happening
all the time in a mountainous place called Afghanistan.
Why shouldn't whats good enough over there not be good enough here?
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Yes, the ranger was there on the NF trail friday trimming the bushes below the E ledges & checking permits. Really nice guy. Didn't see anyone on the way down monday but it was more or less dark. Due to the amount of WAG bags left (8 on the trail and 4 at iceberg) I agree there needs to be education/enforcement/regulation of some sort, as much as I can't stand it. Of the ones on the trail 5 were torn up/knawed by varmints I assume. My only guess is the "city folk" or whatever you want to call them plan to pick it up on the way down...but it's not there when they get back, or in condition nobody wants to touch. Packed out 2 that were in good shape, f-ing nasty. Carrying someone else's shite? If they can educate people about the bears I would think they could do the same with the WAG.
Ran into 1 party on Mithril & a family w/ 3 young kids(7-9) doing EF on saturday, nobody on EF or EB on sunday. The MR had ~20 people sunday. Sounded like a bowling alley. So it seems most are hikers to me.
Plug for the Alabama Hills Cafe; great food, bakery & owner operated.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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I been up there a few times and there's nothing there.
Just rocks and dust and a lot of sky.
Why waste your time in that Whitney area?
Go to the corner of Compton and Crenshaw in east LA.
That's where the action is and no permit required ....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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Plug for the Alabama Hills Cafe; great food, bakery & owner operated.
Yeah, we checked that out for the first time last month while doing some laundry. I liked it. They should make you get a permit for those cinnamon rolls.
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lupo
Ice climber
MT
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Aug 18, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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I'm trying really hard to envison The Modern Amoerican Entitlement Brigade and come up with a tune that would be worth marching along with?
Any help here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP8nGNbk7oQ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 18, 2010 - 08:52am PT
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Werner....thanks for the hot tip about crenshaw....! should i bring crampons and an ice axe? rj
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Aug 18, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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Werner, you are right but your geography is totally screwed up. Compton is a city and Crenshaw is a district and a boulevard. They are NOT in East LA they are in South LA. Actually Compton is it's own city. You've obviously been out in the woods too long.
The Whitney Zone is a lot like Los Angeles. Be ready to share and enjoy with many others.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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rick, at the beginning of the fossil falls thread you reported every half-baked bit of information you came up with to show people on ST you were johnny-on-the-spot making telephone calls. it was ridiculous the way your version of things changed by the hour.
you at least owe us a report for follow-up. that you have not done so tells me you're probably embarrassed by your lack of results. that is what comes of acting solo and trying to rely on coffee shop acquaintances. if you're serious about becoming an activist in climbers' interests--and god knows we need them because the access fund seems worthless except in high profile easy wins--learn to involve others.
i probably would've gotten my demanding ass to one of your meetings, and i could well have brought some real friends of fossil falls with me, but my psychic powers have not developed to the point where i can show up without being given a time and place.
what's missing? we talked about some of it on the thread. i'm sure you never pursued any of the following:
--checking california laws which recognize established access and history of public use
--fair criticism of the BLM for developing fossil falls with signage, interpretive kiosk, restroom and campsites you now have to pay for, without bothering to define property lines
--a complaint to the inyo county sheriff about the little lake ranch security patroller's rudeness, physical intimidation with an off road vehicle, and his threat to "get a gun" in face of complete cooperation on the part of the two climbers
--the appropriateness of the activities of the little lake ranch itself, which should be named the little lake duck hunting club, adjacent to busy state highway 395
--contacting the SCMA, which, together with its predecessor, the sierra club RCS, has used fossil falls annually for its rock safety class graduation, probably before that hunt club even showed up. the SCMA, of which i was a founding member, is generally willing to help in issues which concern it with both contributions and people to get involved. they used to have a pretty good real estate lawyer among the membership.
--involving others outside the climbing realm, a key element in this kind of diplomacy. the reason stony point is now a los angeles city park is that climbers acted along with boys scouts, community history groups and horseback riders, getting the whole city council to override the mayor's veto at the time. fossil falls is an important geohistory site. there's lots of people who should be involved, especially if the nextdoor neighbor is being persnickety and threatening to get a gun. east side is about getting along with neighbors, rick, not shooting at them, and real eastsiders recognize the importance of their economic lifeblood streaming up and down that highway. the wyoming redneck crap-on-outsiders attitude doesn't wash here.
rick, you do lots for the climbing community, but anyone trying to do something like this all by himself is sure to get in it over his head. the damage may already have been done. decisions appear to have been made without full advocacy of the things i mention. such things need to be pushed early in the game.
i'm also posting this on that FF thread where you should have been telling us what you've been up to all along.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:42am PT
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Yes - but not much.
Funny thing is all the great rock you walk by on the way to the classic routes. If I were a local, I'd be exploring all of that and leave the more well traveled routes for trips with out-of-town guests.
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jeff_m
climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Does a permit cost money?
No, actually, the permit is free when you walk in to get one at the Interagency Center. If you make a reservation, then there is a $15 per person fee that covers the administrative costs of their whole reservation/lottery machine.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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wow, this is great. Got my first super topo argument started.
Think im gonna try to get some extra time off and get down there early enough to get a permit. Our whole thing is trying to spend some time out there (i.e. not trying to do C2C, especially since were trying to link to climbs), and it doesnt sound like anyones getting through without a piece of paper.
Also, I agree about always getting (or trying) to get a permit. Especially to show that the lands are getting used and that more money should be allocated to them. Whenever I go anywhere, even if its just filling out a drop box slip, I always do it for this very reason.
Im just frustrated that me and my buddy really want to do this link up, and although we live only 7 hours away, the logistics require 48 hours of travel and bureaucracy, days off work, and a completely unpredicatable results to do so. Especially since we are being lumped in with a different usage catagory and, to some extent, a different trail head.
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jeff_m
climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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On a related note, keep an eye out for these things:
This one was tucked away and monitoring the North Fork prior to the combining of Main Trail/NF quotas. Draw your own conclusions.
EDIT TO ADD:
Oh, and in support of Chief's statement about getting walk-in permits during the week, I have yet to get trumped. (Only once in 10 years and that was walking in Saturday in July for a Sunday permit.)
Also to clarify, the quotas on the North Fork have only been affected for DAY HIKES. Overnight permits (4 reservable, 6 walk-in per day) are the same as they have been for years.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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You can mess with the statistics by waving a stick in front of it a few thousand times.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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big brother is watching you--on the trail, at the stoplights. it's all for your own good, of course.
and if a fighter jet from china lake happens to buzz your butt in all scoffage of the law, you'll get to hear "the sound of freedom".
btw, i have no prob with reining in the pressure on the whitney area. pretty mirror lake, before regulation came into play, was described as a "wilderness slum". but there's no substitute for real rangers meeting the public and understanding what's going on. i might have conceded the point that that may actually be happening here, until this electronic surveillance showed up. rick likes to talk about the spirituality of the climbing experience. something about this kind of crap just seems to scuttle all of that. rangers have to get back to being human again, and that's just not federal policy any more.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 18, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
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Interesting read everyone. Carry on.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
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To Jeremy Ross: Alright, I knew somebody had to appreciate that post. My faith in humans is restored.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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fats, i'd be interested in your experience. i've given up talking to my own congressman.
as climbers we have to admit that we're a rather narrow interest group. on the other hand, the professionals in NPS/FS/BLM are plenty familiar with us and the issues we're involved with. unless they're really screwing up--and it appears the FS may have done so in the station fire down here--no congressman is going to get involved between local rangers and the dept. of interior or agriculture.
i've always felt our best shot is local meetings, the kind rick seems to be having quite secretively all by his self-appointed lonesome. the local chief ranger's job is to engage the public and hear them out and then determine the best course. that WAS the way it used to work, and it used to work well, but it seemed the big flap in josh during the 80s made them gunshy of climbers. all i can say is if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Aug 18, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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I used to love the whole "Whitney experience" but recently things have changed.
I used to be all over the C to C thing but with the new Day Permits, my work and location won't allow for that as much. Bummer for me. But whatever I still got psyched when my buddy and I made plans to climb the EB over the 4th of July weekend. In January we sent a check and the form in for that weekend. We got our spot! But they moved the start date back one day. By the time we noticed it was too late to change it. We both tried, and even-though they got the date wrong we couldn't change it. We are talking Months in advance & they can't kick down the extra day!? No break here but we are still totally motivated. So after weeks of training and acclimating we go up and see if we can get a day pass for that Sat. & we score!!! So now we have overnight passes for Sunday night on and a Saturday day pass. TWO passes!!! Cost us $30 too. Cool! We load up our packs, 55# ea. then we hike all the way to Upper BS. That is where Ranger D(?) looks at our permits and sends us back down. He could have cut us a break at this point. "No problem, I say, we will set up a tent and put our gear inside then hang our food and be on our way." Since we will be back the next day on our multi-day pass, I figure this will be a pain but since we won't have 110# of stuff to carry back down then back up, it will be a good workout. Ranger D says NO! You must take all of your stuff back down to the car! He says there is NO cashing gear or anything else up there! He says it is is written on the permit. He could have been a human being at this point and cut us a break but NO. Even with the whole story above, and two permits etc. Plus the fact that we were totally wiped out, he still sent us down with all our gear. Later as we enjoyed our Burger specials at the Portal Store, I took out my permit and read the back. It says "No cashing gear For longer than 24 hrs." WTF!!??!! AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! We got hosed by that ranger!!! I wish I had the fitness to go back up but I was so Fn mad I just drove home.
I still can't get motivated to go back. Job well done Ranger D!!
WAAAAAH!!! Crybaby moment over.
Wes
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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sorry rick, your mishandling of this matter won't go away with that "never saw you" line. i live in los angeles and we have our own issues close by. if you can organize an effective meeting of land managers, landowners and climbers--and i would suggest some other interested organizations as well--i'd be happy to show up and speak my piece. don't forget to send me a note, though. your telepathic signals just don't come through.
i don't get many member-to-member emails, but i got a couple right away when i started talking back to you. here's a little feedback from the people you think you're representing:
------
Good on yah Tony for your excellent and very humorous analogy of the skunk. I for one, am very tired of his self-righteousness and military approach to ST. I intend on sparring with him one of these days but i won't begin until I am in the right mood.
--------
Thank you for talking back to The Chief. The more and more I read his sh#t, the more I hate that guy.
"You guys are all pussies, it's so easy to get a permit. I just ask my butt buddy Dave to save me a permit for tomorrow when we're throwing back Buds at the local waterin hole, then I go pick it up the next day at 4pm, after a hard day of not working."
F*#k that guy. It's so goddamned hard for working people that live far away to do this stuff as is, the permit system jacks up the difficulty 10 fold. Weekends are obviously a cluster, so even if I relent and go during the week, I have to burn an ENTIRE vacation day for the purpose of driving to the east side by a certain time to get a piece of paper that says I can "walk in the woods", which I could easily handle on this thing called "the internet".
I'd go on, but I don't have time now. But thanks. It doesn't matter though, no matter what argument you'd make, the Chief would call you an as#@&%e and tell you it's "bullshet" that the earth is round, because his C/O in the service told him it was flat.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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If I and millions of other can use our home printers to print
Boarding Passes
to get on multimillion dollar jets, and fly safely seems we should be able to print out a Whitney Zone Permit to just walk on rocks.
The use info would still be collected which is a big $$$ deal for the USFS.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 03:40am PT
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Tony Bird said:
you at least owe us
You santimonious sack of crap! Where do you get off with that attitude? You want to affect what is going on, get your FAT ASS up there, and start doing things. Harassing people who ARE doing things is BS!
Where is your offer of reimbursement? Where is your offer of letters of support? You act like Chief OWED you, personally, emails detailing everything he was doing, PRETENDING that you'd go up there and attend meetings? I'm calling you out!
You're OWED???????
What are you, an infant?
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 04:13am PT
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OK...I have been wanting to respond but school and my hemroidectomy operation has not allowed me to sit down for that long..so here it goes.
First I guided in the Sierra for 9 years...I stopped just last year to go back to school. There was multiple years where my boss gave me the Whitney PIMP/Whore award for being up there the most of any other guide or guide service that year.
1st.... thing were different a while back. NFLP was not always grouped with the SFLP trail. Yes, I agree, this suck and is bad for the climber and bad for as impact goes. It will change, Doug Thompson and many other are going to get it changed.....so hang in there.
Gary mentioned that horde of folks walk into Elevations( glad to hear that John and his wife are making some $$$) to buy an ice axe because they heard they need one to get up Whitney.......lot of good that is going to do them considering they dont know how to using it or the difference between self arrest and self belay. Many folk that try to get permits for the SFLP trail but can not because they are all taken. SO then the the USFS employee behind the counter tells them they can get one for the NFLP.....since they are on a limited time frame....they decide to go for it thinking "what the heck...." they guy behind the counter told me I can make it and gave me some directions and it a trail......"right".
So they head up there ice axe dangling from there pack...the pick pointed away from the center of the pack so that it tries to cut everyone that they pass along the "trail"......Then they miss the ledges....bushwhack up the drainage stomping down everything in site....get to LBS decide to build a fire with all this great dead Foxtail pine wood lying around (unknown to them that the wood is older than there whole party put together)
Later on......if they dont die or if we as tax payers decide to save there butts. They go home to tell of this GREAT epic .......story...because everyone likes a good story of how nice it was to camp on the "green grass" next to UBSL and how beautiful it was.....or the MONSTER boulder that came down the mnteers gully.....and how it was a good thing that they had there ice AXE and not a helmet.
Another issue is the folks that reserve a permit and then just take there reservation # and dont bother picking up there permit......the problem here is that they do not get the "TALK" from the USFS employee or the WAG BAGS. THis happens all the time..........and the Poop tube/WAG BAG dispensers are never full at the start of the NF. THIS PISSES ME OFF! I have mentioned it numerous times to the rangers.
These things, along with many other make climber look bad when you group them with JOE BLOW hiker. We are better than them. And it ruins our playground...and we dont like a being told what to do or how to do it.....I hear ya fellows
I believe we as climber are a good clean, ethical, bunch of folks. Except that Fred Becky guy......he still does not believe in WAG BAGS and digs his hole and SHIZ in it...I saw him do it at IBL........WTF BECKY!
Another is are the cairns.....I go either way on this one....If there are cairns it helps people stay on a trail and also help define the correct trail.............but if you are a climber........you should have a good sense of directions and finding trail and gathering info from other climbers. Early on...my first year or two working in the sierra....I use to knock them down all the time........thinking...if you cant find your way up there....well FOCK YOU....you dont deserve to be up there.......I hope it does take you 15 hours to get to IBL. How hard can it be to follow a drainage....esp. the NF it either up or down......but people are CAIRN crazy....they build cairns wherever they go......it like fire rings.....So my last 7 years I built up the cairns....I even help VOLUNTEERED my time (multiple seasons) to hike that tail AGAIN to go and improve the cairns with the Rangers.
That trail counter sucks ADZE. Its also counting deer, bear, climbers going to Beach and day hikers just going to LBSL. What good are stats if they are BS stats...
In my opinion we need two different quotes for the two trail heads.....if they want to lump trailhead together, lump Cottonwood and the SFLP.
Dont have USFS eployee telling Joe Blow that he or she can make it up the mnteers rt.......because its a Rt. It is NOT A TRAIL and you could be held liable.
There should be no permit for day trips up the NF. I and many other loved it back in the day when we could get drunk and on a whim...find a desinated driver and go down and solo a rt in the whitney area. As climber we love the idea of being able to go climbing when we want to go climbing....we dont want to make reservation.....when the time is right....you just know you are going to send! OR make it available online...for a day permit...that you can print out...GREAT IDEA...who ever said it.
Have wag bags at all trail heads. And keep them filled! ITS LA water...have them pay for it. They wont mind.
Oh ya if the ranger( great guys) are going to go post all those "restoration signs" all of the place.......You always seem to put them up late in the season so that they just get knocked down by all the snow during the winter......And the plastic just become litter. I suggest putting them up early in the season and then taking them down before the first snow.....Reduce Reuse Recylce.
My 2 cents -eric owen
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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you lads like to get noisy. bottom line, ken, rick likes to do it all solo. he never involves anyone else, and his, ah, impeccable manners seem to turn a lot of fellow climbers away. yea, you love him or you hate him.
read through that fossil falls thread and you'll see what i'm talking about--not rick's manners, which weren't so bad there, but the issues involved and his way of imposing himself and trying to take it all under his wing and then turn his back on the people he should be involving. then he gets verrrrry verrrry quiet when he can't boast about resounding success.
i can almost admire rick for his initiative, but he's not going about it right. fossil falls seems like a minor issue, but i think it's a little gem and worth some effort. the hunt club people are being asses and we should be playing hardball with them. rick doesn't understand that kind of hardball. his military background brings nothing but butt-kissing to the table. if you want to see how hardball is played, sit through a nasty case in district court sometime. if you don't have time for that, rent a DVD of trial and error, which will also include a few eastside laughs.
i'd still like to see something happen for fossil falls. i will offer to get as many longtime friends of the place together as i can from southern california for a meeting with authorities and the landowner. rick is local there, so i'll ask him to organize it on his end, and with some consultation, especially with me.
this is a dare. wipe up the spew and roll up your sleeves.
_
as for wag-bag ideas, have they tried solar toilets? seems like there used to be one on the main south fork hiking trail.
solar toilets are quite popular for remote rest areas in arizona, and troy mayr tried to push one for williamson rock which probably needed one more than anyplace you could imagine--more than 100 climbers deep in a gorge on busy weekends and only a few ledges where you could poop away from the creek. at williamson it was too heavy a decision for the FS to make and they hemmed and hawwed it to death. maybe they knew they'd be closing the place anyway.
_
posting this on the FF thread as well. i'm serious about this stuff. we'll see how serious you guys are.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 11:18am PT
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Ideas?
I know it is kinda hi-tech but it has a track record.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Aug 19, 2010 - 11:21am PT
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When I came down Whitney on the High Sierra Trail last year it occured to me that the human impact is out of hand despite management. I compare that walk to the mid 1980's when I first visited that area.
It is my understanding that the current permit system allows half the traffic that climbed this peak in 1970.
I could go on about impacts on the NF but to cut it short, we need to look at some European style management in this area. Wags ain't workin. The watershed is over saturated with nutrients. We need to put up some infrastructure and management in this area. There should be toilets with a sewage removal system (mules), better organized campgrounds with higher capacity, more friendly and patient rangers to supervise. Perhaps even huts and services.
I oppose keeping out the thousands of people who would like to come. If people want solitude this not and never will be the place to go. This is the highest point in the continental US and it needs to be managed in away that it can be enjoyed and preserved.
Keeping the traffic on the main trail is best. Shunting inexperienced people into the NF is irresponsible. It's no place for people who don't know what they are doing.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 19, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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constantly amazed at the breadth of your knowledge
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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leadership isn't a passive thing, rick. in civvieland people don't have to take orders and you can bet that followers won't beat a path to your door. it isn't the communications you receive, it's the communications you initiate.
a little geography lesson. FF is, relatively speaking, in your backyard, especially if you're an alabama hills regular. it's a 170-mile drive for me. you're not about to drive down here for a meeting on the san gabriels and i wouldn't expect you to.
i don't mind pitching in and i actually tried to make some suggestions on that thread, which you saw fit to ignore. where was that email from you saying, "good ideas, tony, let's get together on this"? if you didn't like some of the ideas, or any of them, you could have said, "well, i don't think that'll work here because xyz". do i have to do this for you?
so much for solars.
they had an interesting system in use at pear lake in sequoia a couple summers ago. the thing makes a humming noise, though you can't hear it beyond 100 yards. it's supposed to be bacterial digestion which will yield "pure" soil which won't have to be packed or helicoptered out.
bump to spider. whitney is a magnet and i think it's great to have one like that, a big but doable challenge for rank beginners. it has been the introduction to mountains for lots of people--big hiking, big climbing, and the sense of joining a special fraternity. i generally stay away just to leave it to others who should experience that.
bullwinkle and poetry. wade is once again sublime. (wiping tears with dirty bandana)
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jeff_m
climber
somewhere fairly insignificant
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Aug 19, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Again, a few clarifications, ideas, observations:
You can call the permit office after 4pm (760-873-2483) and get a permit and request that they leave it in the night box. Yes, you will be charged $15 for this, but if the climb and timing are critical, it's a small price to pay. (No, I don't want to get into the "It's our government, our land, it should be free, blah, blah." The money pays for the process and that's okay with me.)
The rangers don't get paid enough for what they have to do and contend with, period. The FS people in the field have my support, sympathy and respect.
A redrawing of the "Whitney Zone" would solve much of the permitting issues. For the NF it should pass just west of Iceberg (or at the start of the Mountaineer's Route) and leave Whitney/Russell col as its north boundary. This would free up access to Russell, Carrillon routes, Thor (The Cleaver, etc.) and could return the permit process to how it was a couple years ago. This would also make it easier for the rangers camped at Iceberg to check permits since it limits the flow. Again, this is all for dayhikes; the overnight permit allotment and process for the NF hasn't changed.
Wag bags? The lesser of evils. I would suggest placing large helo-ready receptacles at Outpost and Trail camp so people throw them away there---much less of a problem/process than dealing with the old solar toilets. That's the real issue: many main trail "adventurers" can't imagine hauling their own waste down the mountain, so they don't. Making them biodegradable would be an obvious next step.
Wedge:
Good post for the most part, but I have yet to see anyone in the Interagency office (or the old station before) "encourage" people to take the MR as an alternative to summit Whitney, especially given the legalities and increased risk; if anything, they tend to emphasize the "dangers" and question your background. Yes, they advocate axe & crampons (overly so, even in August on the main trail when you can even see there's no snow anywhere), but this is more a scare tactic and a CYA----most main trail plodders will cancel their trip than even consider renting an axe, let alone attempting the MR. It's the few Rambos that tend to make headlines. (Also, it should be noted that a majority of the staff have never been anywhere near the summit, let alone up the MR. Mea culpa.)
Tony:
I don't know you, and I don't know Rick/Chief, but rereading this thread it's obvious you have a personal issue with him, separate of this topic. Your first post was confrontational and ad hominem and you've been heavy on the complaints and rants and short on the ideas and solutions. I have no problem with sanctimony when it's backed up with action and forward movement, if not results; being crotchety with nothing to show in this specific area is just foolish. It might be good to take a breather on this issue until you're better informed and have current firsthand knowledge of the area, the people and the process---or better yet, drive north, buy him a beer and work it out face to face and maybe you two could solve the FF problem and earn your bragging rights.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Jeff, I agree with you, now that both trails are linked together. The USFS employees do not push as many people to give the NF a try. This may be one advantage of having the two trailheads lumped together ( you get less unprepared folks on the mnteers). But, when it does resort back to two separate quotes...watch out! You will see many more people on the NF that do not belong there.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Jeff I second yer opion/view on Tony. I've met The Chief and talked with him and AT LEAST he is out there doing things to TRY to HELP the relationships between agencies and climbers, for that THANK YOU Rick. This Tony is/has gotten old with his spewing(and now I imagine I'll be a subject of his spew..oh well)but I too wish he would lay low on this particular subject. Thanks for your post Jeff and Rick, keep doing what you do for all of us on the east side!
Peace
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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i plead guilty to the initial confrontation, jeff, but i ducked. i get good practice from the pictures wade throws at me.
if you think i'm short on ideas, you're not reading this thread or the fossil falls one. rick probably thinks i have too many ideas and none of them are any good, but that's what discussions are for. i do have experience in public action and probably know the eastside as well as any nonresident regular, as a rockclimber, hiker and backcountry skier. i've been coming up there for 29 years.
what ticks people about rick is his inclination to lay down the law and be bossy:
ZERO TOLERANCE as it should be.
that'll bring a kneejerk "f*#k you" from just about anyone on ST even if they agree with him.
i'm into beer, coffee, and once in awhile even a donut, but i know i'm just not rick's kind of guy and i'll make another dare, for him to rise above that in the interest of issues we both care about. you can join us and break up the clumsy fistfighting. i don't know who you are either, jeff, but if you can only see sanctimony on one side, you've already taken sides.
haha, here comes the spewwww for yewwww, ron. grab an umbrella.
the part i think you're wrong about is relationships between agencies and climbers. except in petty ways, i think they went out the window at josh in the late 80s. i've been in the midst of their williamson rock nonsense down here and i think the forest service has acted in cynical bad faith. let's make that a little bigger, CYNICAL BAD FAITH.
if you want chapter and verse on that, it goes like this. they knew what they were doing would be controversial. in order to keep climbers from squawking, they approached troy mayr, publisher of the guidebook and developer of so many of the wonderful routes, and asked him to form "friends of williamson rock". troy, of course, was flattered. randy vogel chimed in and said climbers should act as a group to be effective. ever since then there hasn't been the slightest criticism or even information about why this was done. i learned more in two hours of googling than ever came out of FoWR. this, btw, has become standard procedure in so many areas. we have a very clever government, good at spindoctoring everything that comes up in the grass roots. rick the chief can't even see this, which is why i find his good-old-boy diplomacy to be downright hazardous.
i stand for the traditional processes of open meetings, open information, fair discussion and input. i have no disrespect for a chief ranger who has to make a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't decision, but only after they've gone through that process. nowadays they avoid the process like the plague. they hate the heat but they love the kitchen.
no, i don't know any east side rangers personally. no one should have to. they administer to a large general public and they should be greasing the lines of communication. i think most of them are in shellshock bunker mode. don't ask me to call them heroes.
the fossil falls case is a prime example of office creatures mismanaging an outdoor resource. the place was developed a few years ago for greater public use (read, a campground you now have to pay to use, an overnight BLM specialty), and apparently there is no warning about the property issue. one can assume they had no idea.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 19, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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i'd like to know about that, fattrad.
rick, you'll be a lot easier to follow when you stop talking in acronyms. i just get this feeling that PP is what you're full of.
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krahmes
Social climber
Stumptown
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Aug 19, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Move the trailhead to bottom of the first long switch back at 6000’ and blow up the road. The summer cabin crowd can access their cabins by ass. Doug is screwed anyway when they make the Portal a NP. If the riff raff still comes; single lane 395 from Coso Jct to the top of the Sherwin grade. That should thin the herd in more ways than one. This plan should save money on road construction (screw you Granite Construction and your never ending road construction) and we won’t need but one Wilderness rangers.
I hope Fattrad takes this plan to his super strong congressman.
As per the advice asked for by the original poster: Stay off the main trail, be stealthy, avoid people, and don’t post on the f-ing internet asking how to break rules. Fake ID might help cuz you have that please tool me vibe.
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jfailing
Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
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Aug 19, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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Ha! Krahmes, I knew I could count on you to come up with some sort of end-all solution.
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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Aug 19, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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Tony shut the f*#k up already! What a total waste of how many pages by this tony wangbait?
The Chief, keep up the decent work and trying to do the good deeds up and around there. Please do not listen to the ignorance that the likes that tony and his buddies share. Ran into Ranger Dave yesterday afternoon at the center and man did he look over worked. What a cool cat he is and it shows by all his hard work on the NFLP trail. I personally brought down seven left behind waggers from the Iceberg area. Saw more but had no room. Asked some other people to help carry out and they flat out said "f*#k that!" What a bunch of none caring pigs they were. All were climbers and many had this bs attitude that it was the rangers responsibility to clean up the area and that the permit system was hard enough to deal with let alone having to dump into and then bring down their wags and any others that were left behind. Ranger Dave and I talked about this exact issue and how sick people are becoming. He agreed but didn't comment much more on it. I could tell he had his opinions but there were too many people around within an ears shot.
Keep up the hard work Ranger Dave if you read this. Thanks for all your beta and help as well.
Tony, shut the f*#k up.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Aug 19, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
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Lol.
Slice = The Chief
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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yea, i was beginning to suspect that too. you can recognize certain people by the vocabulary and new trollers never have pics in their file. and it's amazing, the size of the local volunteer poop brigade. who needs helicopters?
i think it'd be nice to get ranger dave involved here. i wonder how he feels about his good friend telling people to stay away from public issues on public land.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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I was asking where did this heinous wag-bag come from?
Ya too much information but its a story of a Montanan with an idea at the right time and with the know how and now the guy is making tons and employing
many locals. A real American success story.
http://www.montana.edu/cpa/news/nwview.php?article=3815
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 19, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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CC,
Cool story on the dude in Montana. I worked with fungus to bioremediate explosives (TNT) contaminated soil with researchers at UT State. White Rot Fungus, the stuff that degrades lignin in wood, turn over a downed branch in the forest, you have all seen the white. Very powerful stuff. So that is a cool idea.
Besides, fungus fits into the tone of this conversation quite well....
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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Interesting.
Hate to poke me head above the foxhole. It is so difficult to gain consensus in the climbing community, and it is difficult to get land managers to change. Anyone willing to step into that line of fire better be very educated (so they don't screw it up more)and deserves some thanks. It is completely impossible to put forward a position that makes all climbers happy and is likely to succeed. In my mind, folks that take their valuable time and energy to pick up trash, work on trails, and advocate for climbers are bigger heroes to me than the person who nabbed some FAs and has moved on. They get no thanks and a lot of grief. There isn't a need to keep score - I'll thank anyone who has picked up one bag, respected one reg that really frosted them (thus not giving the land manager more reason to kick me out), and took time away from climbing one sunny day to try and understand what the land manager's perspective. Much in the Sierra and the West may be public lands. We are a very minor part of the public and garner very little sympathy from the general public. In a society that endorses "click it or ticket" campaigns, I am amazed that we can continue to climb on some public and private lands.
Vent all you want privately. Please don't put fuel on the fire that creates punitive regulation. Your friendly north fork climbing ranger, or Sierra bureaucrat that can enforce or create the rules may be reading this.
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
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Seamstress,
Yeah, I honestly did not expect this kind of response (i figured a couple people might post something)! I havent been to whitney in MANY years (like, 10 or 15) and was just kinda looking for what to expect. I defenitly got my answer.
But at this point, im guesing the forest service has a shoot on sight warrant out for me cause of this thread.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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brick, you got me laffin out loud, but that happens at least once a day on ST and not necessarily dealing with rick.
i love this second childhood we all lay into here, just like recess back in elementary school.
when our two kids were small we tried to keep the peace between them. it got to the point where the winner of an argument would sit there, gloating silently, which invariably set the loser off again. so we tried to impose a "no gloating" rule.
nice try, mom and dad. the new argument became whether the winner was goating or not.
"s/he's gloating!"
"am not! am not!"
honest, rick, i'm not gloating. and if you'll believe that, i got more dares for ya ...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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fats, been meaning to talk with you.
please don't ask your republican insiders, if they ever get their sorry asses into congress, to do anything about williamson rock. i doubt they could anyway. it'd probably be about as effective as rick waiting politely in the donut shop vestibule for mister ivey to develop an expansive mood.
i love the mountain yellow-legged frog, fats. if they'd let me down in the gorge these days i'd find one and hug it, never mind the sticky. more jollies than hugging the general sherman. but it's the game, as#@&%e, and how you play it. i don't want to win a fight someone is paid to throw, i don't want to win a football game rigged by bookies. if the fight can't be fair, i'll lose. at least i won't be the loser you are.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 20, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
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aw, fattrad, i was expecting spew. you're way nicer than rick. i can't believe you're a republican.
lookee here, the issue isn't to open or to close, the issue is the reasoning behind it. we're given nothing but voodoo talk.
if it's essential that this crag be closed to help save an endangered species, i and every climber i know, with the exception of a certain deviant who has proposed a frogleg feed, will support it forever. if this turns out to be spew from the forest service, it needs to be picked apart.
is the proximity of climbers really going to endanger a few frogs upstream? is the frog itself that endangered? how many frogs are left? their range extends through the sierra nevada into oregon, that much i've determined. how does this compare with similar amphibian endangerments and extinctions throughout the world? there's a UC prof, quoted in national geographic, who seems to be a real expert in this area. let's get some expert opinion. if any of this was ever done, climbers were NEVER clued in on it.
these issues are important and they should be settled because they'll come to bear on similar situations for climbers all over.
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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Aug 23, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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I think the funniest thing is The Chief got outed as The Slice! Or Slice, SIR! His tepid denial aside, pretty clear if you look the Slice-Buddy's only 10 posts - they all come to the defense of The Chieftress. Ha Ha HAHA Lovin it I am not The Chief, far from it. I lurk on this and other climbing sites for route and technical information to gain knowledge about the sport. I will not divulge my real name for privacy and personal reasons. I do not deem it necessary to to prove a damn thing to anyone of you as far as that goes either. But, I will divulge my relationship with The Chief. I initially met the The Chief this past April in the Alabama Hills while he and Jamie were fixing the anchors there. My son actually met him first on another website and asked for his assistance in climbing matter. We agreed on a time and date and then went on a father & son weekend climbing outing to the Alabama Hills and met up with Jamie and The Chief. Unlike some of the totally negative and so very rude people that have posted on this thread, he and Jamie are actually doing something about this very important issue and far more than most of you in my opinion. He is out there and making a difference to keep things open for future generations, my son included, and trying his hardest to keep the local Eastern Sierra land owners off your backs. For that I highly respect both him and Jamie and anyone else out there that is doing the same selfless thing.
Since our first meeting, my son and I have spent several weekends with The Chief preparing for a life long dream of my son's, to attempt to climb the East Buttress of Mt. Whitney. The Chief was kind enough to offer his services, completely free of charge, to get us both ready for and then guide us up the route. He and my son completed the climb three weeks ago. I did not acclimate accordingly, wasn't strong enough to continue on thus I remained at Iceberg Lake to watch them complete my sons dream. It was thus far the highlight of my sons life and for that I acknowledge a public and hearty thanks to The Chief.
So yes, I deem it my place to defend The Chief (very rudely in some instances) the few posts that I have contributed here on Super Topo. He is an honorable, very approachable, friendly and highly respectable man in reality. He walks the talk regularly with a dedication the likes that only a career military man can. But please, by all means, continue thinking what you want. This of course is the internet and we can all choose to think and believe anything and all that we want. This will be my last posting visit here on this forum. I now clearly understand why the local crags here in the San Diego area are getting trashed out and exactly what The Chief terms the "entitled brigade". So does my son.
Thank you for your time.
Edit: The avatar comes from my hard working father who was a career union butcher for well over 40 years back in the midwest.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Aug 23, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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I better stay outta' this one.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 23, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 23, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Stopping for 15 minutes to pick up a permit is a small price to pay to visit such an awesome area. If you want to do a route in a day and dont have time to pick one up, drive a few minutes north and check out the palisades or temple crag. have you done all those routes already? Bagged all the lord of the rings peaks by middle pal? All the clyde routes? Probably not.
Part of being a climber is being able to make sacrifices. Getting off of a 10 hour workday and driving straight through the night to be first light, and driving back with 2 hours before the next shift, thats what climbers do. Planning a weekend six months in advance and taking 3 days to get to IBL because you won't train during the week is not the answer.
This season I am 4/4 on getting permits, about to be 5/5 wednesday morning.
Just remember, you can climb these peaks ANY DAY you want, in rain, snow, hail, any month, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is pick up a permit and sh!t in a bag. Is it really that terrible...
Of course, they could implement Himalaya style permits, and charge 100 bucks for a 14'er/50 bucks for a 13'er...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 23, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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Sweet I'm glad my post killed this thread :(
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| Messages 1 - 89 of total 89 in this topic |
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