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Gene
Social climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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*O/T Alert*
Hey, The Chief,
Do you have any info on the Williamson area BHS closures? Has that situation been resolved?
Thanks,
Gene
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Gene
Social climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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Let's hope the right decision is made. Thanks for the update and your efforts on this.
g
*END O/T ALERT*
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Highlife
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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It sounds like everyone one is pretty much on the same page here as far as "it sucks and it pisses me off...but also, it makes sense and is neccesary." And if you take a step back and look at the bigger picture, thats definitly true.
But The Fet's comment about the north fork and the technical routes being lumped in witht the general whitney portal madness is totall correct. Yes, the whitney trail probably sees 100 boyscout troops every week,but not nearly as many people are heading up the east face, harding route, or (in my case) Russell.
To a certain extent I am just pissed, and bitching because I am pissed(I dont know about Victim mentality). But for those of us that dont have the luxury (and it is a luxury) to wander up to the ranger station after 4 ocklock 9 times a year, mid week, it makes it DAMNED hard to climb.
Reasonable or not (permit/restriction system), I work within "the system" and abide by all the rules, suck it up and am 100% complacent to a society/culture im not a big fan off, office work, and whatever else all week long. Its definitly completely against my nature, but I do it, and I do it with a smile. Theres just something about the fact that even for the miniscule amount of time im able to get away from it all and actually live, its still regulated and suffocated by written law. Whether this feelings warranted or not is beyond me, but I cant help the frustration....well beyond drinking beer (temp solution).
Thats just a feeling thats been building up in general, "city stir crazy" I guess. Maybe its the reason I became fixated getting these particular climbs done right now.
But go ahead guys, I can already tell who the people on this thread are who are going to rip this statement to shreds.
And to ED Bannister, yeah, I TOTALY hear ya,but someimes you get an itch and need to scratch it.
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goon
Trad climber
bishop
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Aug 17, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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These rangers may be doing their "job;" but, remember that our great forest supervisor decided but a couple of years ago that combining the permit system for both the main Whitney trail and the North Fork trail was a good idea - never mind the fact that it is two different user groups who use these different access points to Whitney.
I sympathize with the arguments of trash, WAG bags, and amount of peopel etc - but really - requiring those of us who wish to push ourselves, engaging in long one day ascents on technical climbs now need to deal with the mayhem of the permitting for the main Whitney trail is truly beyond my sense of comprehension of fairness.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Chief, I hear you about how available the permits are, but that's really only an option for the eastside locals or semi-retired. When you're a freeway flyer from LA or thereabouts and you've got maybe a day and a half off, it can be really hard to get there before 4 pm if you're game to do Mt. Russell's E. Arete the following day.
Having said that, I still think it's a good idea to require permits for that area. The area is just too fragile to permit alot of impact lest it begin to look like an outhouse relatively quickly. However, it would have been nice if the forest service would have distinguished between the very different users for the Whitney trail and North Fork.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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chief is in the habit of saluting anything with more stripes than he has. once it was a dead skunk in the middle of the road.
(ducking)
um, whitney is overused. highest mountain in the lower 48, everyone wants the t-shirt. lotsa projects elsewhere, but do what you must.
chief still believes what he's been told about ours being a system of laws. i learned that in the jaycee creed about the same time. "i believe in a government of laws, not of men". a fine thing. i still believe in it. just doesn't correspond to what goes on in this country. if you've felt the noose tightening, you're not the only one.
the "demonstration programs" are just a way of training the public. have you ever known one that wasn't demonstrated to be absolutely necessary? the more submissive we get, the more they take away. the adventure pass program down here is a shameful, unconstitutional, illegal law, contrary to everything we learn in our civics classes, but they shove it down our throats with the long arm of the federal government. they've got their rangerettes out every saturday and sunday ticketing every little car, super efficient, don't miss a one. but when they got a call from their top firefighters this time last year, they wrung their hands for hours, i guess to pinch a few bureaucratic pennies. come on down, chief. take a look at the burnout delivered by the wondrous forest service to los angeles' greatest outdoor resource. fyi, this is under congressional investigation, which is probably the best way to assure that nothing will be done.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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Some of us out-of-staters spending bucks to fly in want to know that we will get a permit. We won't get there 9 times in our lifetime and want to climb just once or twice. So I applied for a permit months ago and got my 8th choice. We wanted to add a person to our party at the last minute - none available. He was not successful in the 11 am lottery, but did pick one up at 4 pm.
I stayed primarily at Upper Boy Scout. I ran into ranger Dan on day three. He was going up to stay at Iceberg, and I was going down to Upper Boy Scout. He did ask to see my permit. I complied and asked him for tissue or wipes as I just had a bloddy nose from all that dry sierra air. It is a whole lot more humid in the WA Cascades. He was very pleasant. We exchanged weather information. In the conversation, it was obvious that he checked various sites at Upper Boy Scout, but he did not run into the other members of my party or see my tent. We were off to the left of the lake.
A couple days later, I saw him again coming down the Mountaineer's Route at about 13,400'. He recognized me and happily told me that the weather was gorgeous - no chance of afternoon storms,
So the rangers are out and about, not just trolling at the trailhead. They were decent enough to be helpful. There were no wag bags lying about Upper Boy Scout while I was there.
The folks at the administrative office - they were not the most engaging. They did not even offer that you could go back at 4 to claim an unused permit. We just decided to give it one more chance since my friend is tiny and is a poor pack mule.
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goon
Trad climber
bishop
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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Chief, as Fat Dad noted those of us with full time jobs just don't have the luxury of being at the forest service office at 4pm on a Friday afternoon - we have to work. Yes, i could go down on a Saturday, but, honestly, i would rather do my long day on Saturday since I am generally at work at 7 or 7:30 a.m.
I agree with many on the limits - ie there being too many people on Whitney, but combining the permitting process for the main trail and the North Fork trail just doesn't make sense. Remember, all those who want to go up the North Fork trail don't necessarily want to climb Whitney - it is not the only peak back there!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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don't think for a minute it has anything to do with service to the public. if that were true, you'd be able to get a day permit on friday evening or early saturday morning, to accommodate the largely weekending public. you're expected to take friday off and lose a day's pay for a piece of paper, as many of us benefitless people in the private sector have gotten so used to, so the ranger can show up at work 8 am monday and do nothing in an air-conditioned office. you can get your boarding pass off the internet, why not this?
those rangers wouldn't be on the trails if they weren't enforcing. rangers used to do what their name implies--range. you'd find them any old place odd times in the backcountry. usually it would result in a pleasant and informative chat, and you'd feel you were being taken care of. voluntary cooperation without a trace of negative feelings was the great flower of those times. today it's a thing of the past.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
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Many of the people I spoke with staying on the mountain intended to climb both Whitney and Russell. One party was just camping and not intending to get to the top of anything.
It seemed that there were just enough people in the NF. A couple more would not have hurt the experience, twice as many would have detracted.
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goon
Trad climber
bishop
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Aug 17, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Seamstress - i know for me personally, i don't have an issue w/ permitting/quotas for overnight trips. It is the day trips for North Fork that I have the issue with competing with people doing the main Whitney trail. As i said before, and as you noted - not everyone that is back there is there to climb Whitney.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
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my experience is so cal and it ain't bullshet. i know a few rangers myself. some of the best ones are glad to retire and get the hell out of the law enforcement circus this has become in recent years.
seamstress's experience is a rare example of the way things used to be. now they love to lord it over you on horseback or showing the guns on their hips. if you've ever read "the last season", you might get a flavor of the best of what a ranger should be about. i don't think it's entirely coincidental that randy morgenson's death came at the time of this sea change.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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you know chief, i really don't give a rat's ass about your coffee pals. the problems people deal with are just a little bigger than the pleasant little corner of nowhere you've managed to situate yourself in and bullhorn to supertopo about. if these guys are so great, tell 'em to stay up friday night, get up early on saturday and take monday, tuesday and wednesday off. they'd serve the public a thousand times better that way. if any one of them knows the first thing about computers, tell him to get their permit routine on a website system so people can plan what they're doing a little better than 20 minutes ahead of hitting the trail.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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These rangers may be doing their "job;" but, remember that our great forest supervisor decided but a couple of years ago that combining the permit system for both the main Whitney trail and the North Fork trail was a good idea - never mind the fact that it is two different user groups who use these different access points to Whitney.
It's not two different user groups. Whitney's main trail is a huge magnet. It gets more popular every year. When people were getting shut out of the lottery, they started going up the Mountaineer's Route. Lots of them. Not the most skilled group, either.
Talk to the gal that owns Elevation, she makes a killing selling ice axes to rookies coming out to climb Whitney.
The impact of all this is what caused the North Fork to get thrown in the Whitney Zone.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I'm trying really hard to envison, "The Modern Amoerican Entitlement Brigade" and come up with a tune that would be worth marching along with?
Any help here?
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Well GUY, fact remains that 99% of the time you can go to the LP Visitors Center after 4PM and grab an unclaimed day permit for the NFLP section most any time during the week.. fact. Did it nine times without any delay last summer for each of my one day C-C's.
The Chief,
That's good to know. It might just come in handy this September when I finally get a few days off...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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i spend lots of time on the east side, just not on a daily basis. the privileges you guys have are part of this country not being a government of laws. pay $5 to park alongside a state highway in the national forest next time you get sleepy on a long drive.
you like to pose as a climber's climber, chief, but you knuckled down and then backed down when you discovered the lies you were being told about the tooling at fossil falls. your busybodying isn't appreciated by everyone on here.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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if you've been doing all that, you've kept pretty mum about it. i check ST every day and the fossil falls thread dropped off the radar long ago.
probably you're trying to keep climbers out of the loop. good idea because they were hopping mad about the rude, if not illegal, treatment they got, and you came pretty close to calling them liars.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Aug 17, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Checking passes and permits while holding a machine gun is happening
all the time in a mountainous place called Afghanistan.
Why shouldn't whats good enough over there not be good enough here?
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