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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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I would be interested in how yu approached the issue with the land managers in MT. All things considered I feel it is pretty benign.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
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Feb 25, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
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I have to post on this, because, I am one of the seasonal ice farmers in Ouray.
Jim: the land, the majority of the park, except for the Five Fingers and the Shithouse wall I believe (may be wrong) is all owned by the owner of the Ouray Hydro Plant. He is a very nice guy and has been very generous in allowing the ice park to continue.
The water source comes from the city's overflow, from the Weehawken Spring, not the penstock, though it still leeks sometimes and forms the yellow lines you can see. There is one right now in the Schoolroom and route number 1. If for some reason, the town of Ouray was short on water in the winter, Ice Park would not get any, but that will probably never happen.
As far as ethical reasons against farming, I don't see any if all the respective land owners/managers are ok with it. Ouray is fortunate to have a source of water above a gorge, that stays cold enough to grow big fat ice climbs. But all of us climbers are really fortunate to have the owner of the Hydro Plant be so friendly and cool about it. About access issues, to keep the Park going, respect the property, and follow posted rules. Stuff like walking on penstock or adjacent walkways (right after the Schoolroom, headed to Grad School) or anchoring off the handrails in SR are the kind of things that are not supposed to happen. That and parking in the employee parking, which in reality is the Hydro parking.
Anyway, cheers yall,
Pierce
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10b4me
Ice climber
Ice Caves at the Sads
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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I see no problem with it unless it adversely effects the environment. from what I've seen in Lee Vining, the ice has not been farmed(and some routes suffer because of it).
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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After the ice and snow melts there is little evidence a climbers has been there IMHO.
I dunno. I've seen it done, with amazing effects. But, mostly what I see is a very few folks who are psyched enough to do it, and, maintain it. After the ice is gone, all that piping is still around. And the next season, when it doesn't get hooked up, its an eyesore, and no one around to take it down (although we chop bits of it out of the ice and snow and haul it down).
Diverting the stream flow on BLM or FS land in Utah? I think there's a huge access risk. Especially in watershed sensitive areas like near SLC.
I can't imagine, as tight as water rights are in the west, that land managers would green light any water diversion out of a stream course.
I hear folks talk about doing it all the time. We just have such a limited amount of ice here (at least close to town, and super accessable) and a huge number of climbers. At least that's the excuse. Hate to lose what little we have because a sideways land manager got wind of farmed ice.
Hard to keep quiet. New ice routes? Bring on the photog's...etc. Funny, walking from terminal C to D in the SLC airport there's a nice shot of the Bridleviel Falls area in Provo Canyon. I can tell when the photo was takin', 'cause I can still see the upper farmed ice, which hasn't been hooked up for a couple of years.
Farmed ice on public land? I guess I'm in the "not worth the risk" catagory, but, I do know it goes on.
Did the FS really buy into the Genesis area stuff in Hyalite? Or do they either not know or not say?
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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I agree that if a mess is left behind that will jepordize access faster than anything, but I have personally cleaned up some places that were farmed and the people who did it just left it there. Some of it had been left for more than a year. That is just lazyness not the way it has to or should be just like "fixed" pads and other things left at crags that are not "supposed" to be there. One thing is that access is limited to people who have the tools and experience to get there in the winter, but in the summer people without those tools and skills can an do go there. One other point is that in a place like Lee Vining I cant imagine that the leaking pipe has hardly any environmental damage compared to the presence of the pipe in the first place that is probably emptying a whole drainage of most of its water. Which land managers seem to be completely OK with and are even promoting more of in places like BC apperently.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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Brian, as far as I know, G1 and its doings is a touchy subject in the GalNatFor--I will just say that it is a done deal...
USFS Land managers (at least in these parts) have no tolerance for diversion of water on "their" lands, but they realize that they do not have the resources to stop this tactic of "farming" from happening.
Out of sight, out of mind seems to be their mantra often when dealing with rogue actions.
Approaching them before hand only draws attention to the matter and causes problems for all.
G1's formation is in the history books, and sets no precedent--it merely is an out-layer in the system of Fed. management.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 04:41am PT
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What if the climb is visable from the road and not that hard to hike to and has killer ice compatatively to the rest of the area. Would you talk to land managers then?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 27, 2010 - 05:21am PT
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Mike, visible from the road is a a warning flag, unfortunately--that means that ANY traffic (especially local) would notice that something is different, eventually. The odds are pretty good that you could maybe get away with it for a season (or two), but expect to be eventually approached. There really is no "plan" of action to take with the USFS, they would just fix/close it and then always be aware of it possibly happening in the future.
Be stealth and be quiet about it would be your best course of action--forbidden fruit terrain, as poaching skate boarders would call it...
Stories and adventures to you if you pull it off:-)
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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Thanks for the expereinced advice.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Feb 28, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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Ouray, Ouray, Ouray.......
I had been going down there every year including the first year the locals made the park a reality. Just happen to be driving by long ago with the car full of gear and was like wow look at this.
You used to be able to drive up and past the Camp Bird climbs on the road.....that was scary........
This winter was the first I've not gone to Ouray for the Ice Park or natural flows.
It's just too crowded. NOW I appreciate the Ice Park for what it does for those that use it. I like that it's there.
The Ice Fest is another matter, as well as the Ice Park Board. I mean they go around town once a year asking for money from the local business to "donate to what makes their lively hood happen in the winter."
But the board members asking for the "donations" from the local business NEVER include the business in the Ice Fest, I.E. food from local restaurants for the events, it's all fast food sh#t from Montrose.
As well as the board members coming into the local restaurants to beg for money, never coming in to spend it themselves the whole year. WTF
If you go to the "Ice Fest" it's $15 bucks to walk thru each door that's in front of you. Wanna go see a slide show after the crappy meal they serve, another $15, wanna do this or that $15......
I've got close ties to that town and hear all the local rant and rave for the park and against.......some locals feel the whole thing will blow up in it's own face one day.
Now as the previous poster mentions all this is contingent on one person letting them be there......well what happens if this owner sells or passes away and some one new comes in and isn't as "nice".
Again I appreciate the Ice Park, but well I hope it stays around for what it does for people...........
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hielo
Ice climber
Sonora, Mexico
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Feb 28, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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I am the original "developer" of the Ouray Ice Park. The story is that several locals began dripping water through hoses and a wonderful climbing venue was created. While the volunteer work was very generous, it was preceded by over a year of legal/political maneuvering.
Prior to the ice park, a leak in a defunct City reservoir created several routes in the Uncompahgre Gorge. They were discovered and climbed in the '70's (right Jim Donini?). The cliffs contained a "penstock" that carried river water to a 100 year old hydro plant in town. The penstock and 100 feet of land (the cliffs) were owned by a power company that posted no trespassing signs and occasionally requested intervention by the sheriff.
The power company went bankrupt and the plant, land, penstock, and a dam (one mile upriver), was purchased by Eric Jacobsen. Eric is a hydroelectric power provider from Telluride and Ouray. In 1993, over a few beers, Eric generously agreed to grant an easement for legal use of the facility if I could provide insurance to satisfy FERC. Sounds impossible, right?
The Access Fund advised me of a Colorado Recreational Users statute that protects landowners from legal liability if they do not charge a fee for the use of their land. After being laughed out of a meeting at the Ouray City Council, I worked with the County attorney, Mike Hockersmith. We drafted and executed an easement with Eric and Ouray County. We also secured an easement with the Forest service that owned some of the land along the gorge cliff. The County's insurance carrier was familiar with the statute and provided the needed insurance.
The first year the park opened, we used river water from the penstock. This created rust-colored ice but the frigid water made great climbs very quickly. In subsequent years, we utilized surplus City water that was overflowing into the river. It was much warmer, so I utilized the shower heads to cool down the water before in touched the ground. They are still utilized today.
The success of the park led to the creation of the non-profit corporation that manages the facility. It is a win-win for climbers and the City of Ouray. The park is located within the City of Ouray and was developed with roads and the hydro facility assets before the park was created. It was not wilderness land and the water that forms the ice returns to the Uncompahgre River and eventually to the Colorado River. The Ouray Ice Park fits my conscience quite nicely.
Adding: The world divides generally into two categories: 1) Those that get things done, and
2) those that bitch about those that get things done,
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City (CC,NV)
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Feb 28, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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hielo
Thank you for getting "things done" in Ouray. I have enjoyed going to Ouray at least once a year for the last 6 years to enjoy all they great ice and more importantly.....the great town. We always meet the greatest people there...local and visiting climbers. STRONG work!!!!!!
Shawn
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Feb 28, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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I'm a novice to ice climbing. Went to Ouray Ice festival in January with Bill McConachie & Frank Baker. Attended 3 clinics...one of them with Fabrizio Zangrilli. We had a blast, met lots of colorful people, including the Cliff Bar reps, enjoyed the local restaurants and hot spring, and did some awesome ice climbing in the park. I would be curious to see what the box canyon looks like during the summer. Here's what it looked like in January.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 28, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Wow, I think that picture
just inspired me to take up ice climbing!
That's hot!
Yes, please post an additional
picture showing the summer look.
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hielo
Ice climber
Sonora, Mexico
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Feb 28, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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Well, I posted . . . so here's the deal . . .
The Ice park is not in "Box Canyon". That is a tourist attraction that is located at the point near the Ice Park where Canyon Creek flows into the Uncompahgre River. The reason that this distinction must be observed is that Box canyon falls charges an entrance fee. The Ice park is FREE. It is a legal distinction that allows the Ice Park to function under Colorado law. No fee = no liability.
The Ice Park will never charge a fee. This is not to say that Box Canyon Falls is not an incredible thing to observe and well worth the admission ticket. It is indeed all of that.
But the Ouray ice Park is supported by contributions from many sources including Annual Memberships, the Festival sponsors and shows, the Ouray merchants and Chamber of Commerce, and any number of contributions from people and organizations that recognize the efforts of a tiny town to do what many thought impossible. Climb on!
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Feb 28, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification hielo...the above photo was taken from the bridge at the Ouray Ice Park overlooking "Pic 'O the Vic" and "Tangled Up in Blue". I was wondering what the canyon under the bridge looks like in the summer when there is no ice. Is there any obvious environmental, ecological, erosion-related,etc. damage to the canyon? Is there any monitoring of water quality down stream of the Ice Park when the ice melts in the Spring?
Here's a photo of one of the athletes in the Competiton...
Bill McConachie sans la corde
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Feb 28, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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Nice pics and great info ! Loved the ice park this year -- went in Feb. with a couple of friends.
obligatory Schoolroom shot
overhanging TR for gym-like fun
pillars, mixed, and other goodness
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hielo
Ice climber
Sonora, Mexico
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@ tuolumne_tradster . . .
I no longer reside in Ouray but visit every Summer. Perhaps we will hear from people more knowledgeable than I regarding your ecological issues.
I am not aware of any damage to the canyon other than the loose rock that is deliberately removed from the walls as a safety measure. I do believe that the river quality is monitored but I do not know the frequency. The purpose of the monitoring is related to the effort to clean up the river from mining-related contaminants. The headwaters of the Uncompahgre River is Red Mountain creek which is located in a very large historic mining district. I do not know whether the ice park board has any contact with federal agencies that are attempting to restore the river to a fishery.
I appreciate your concern.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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hielo: thanks, I appreciate the info. I'd expect the environmental impacts from the Ice Park to be minimal especially compared to acid mine drainage upstream. Although I could imagine how melting of the ice walls in the Spring might accelerate erosion of the canyon walls and increase sediment load in the Uncomphagre River.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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Climbed some produce today. The shutter on the camera got stuck on one but it was fat and in the 60's today after work.
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