Ice Farming Cool or Lame

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johnboy

Trad climber

Can't get here from there

Mar 23, 2010 - 01:17am PT

Mike, where's that at. I thought I'd have to hang up my tools after this last warm spell. I live just south east of Custer.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2010 - 01:26am PT

I bet the Harney flow is still fat as well.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2010 - 12:41am PT

Anyone got a good crop this year?

mongrel

Trad climber

Truckee, CA

Dec 24, 2010 - 01:02am PT

I vote cool, as it seems most of the posters here do. And actually, I imagine the riparian/erosion/etc. impacts are not very considerable. Riparian vegetation makes its living during (especially) the early summer, by which time any diversion has long since ceased. Hard to imagine an adverse impact there. Erosion issues arise when there are sudden spikes in discharge rates; in an extreme example, the major rain-on-snow events we have in California every few years or decades. I would imagine that farmed ice melts relatively slowly over a period of many days or weeks, thus unlikely to trigger erosion that is outside the normal range for the snowmelt season; on the contrary, probably a slight enhancement for downstream riparian vegetation.

There is one definite concern, specifically that, if ice is farmed on a good rock climbing area, it will not be long before mixed and drytooling on the rock routes causes a huge amount of damage to that resource. This is not an imaginary issue; some pretty significant damage on routes in New England for one example. But farming on a choss pile, or on rock that's wet/muddy/etc. and should be left vegetated and not cleaned off for rock routes in the summer, seems excellent.

Permits ought to be feasible to get, depending somewhat on who's the district ranger or supervisor. There's a process, some paper to shovel, but diversion of water within a drainage basin (not outside it) during the non-growing season, without placing fill or otherwise trashing the source water body, should be totally doable. There's no consumptive use (starts as surface water and remains surface water within the same basin the whole time). Stream permit (most states), probably no federal Sect. 404 permit because you wouldn't be filling or excavating within a water of U.S., if federal land there would be an E.A. but probably pretty doable. I'd be happy to look into it from afar, thus not attracting attention to anything that might be flying under the radar; fire me an e-mail.

Robb

Social climber

The other "Magic City on the Plains"

Dec 24, 2010 - 04:18am PT

Tell me farming doesn't rock

Stewart Johnson

climber

yo mama

Dec 24, 2010 - 11:17am PT

dont remember that one ron,
heres a two pitch product.
cheers stewie

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2010 - 11:23am PT

Stewert that thing looks bad ass! Merry christmas to you.

RickyRo

Gym climber

Tuskaloosa , AL

Dec 31, 2010 - 12:51pm PT

So the ice park in Ouray isn't letting the word get out that so far this season not much is open, school room and kids wall. Duncans Delight fell down, not a word of that out there There's a ton of people, some all the way from Europe, trying to climb 10 routes. What a
joke. Basic subterfuge like ski areas do.
Plus I got this coupon on my car from the Ouray Brewery, the one built by
Haliburton money. Apparently the 'Ice Czar' also is a partner in this 'brewery' so it sounds like a conflict of interest, esp. for a supposed non-profit, since he is also head of the Ice Park Board.

Capt.

climber

some eastside hovel

Dec 31, 2010 - 02:04pm PT

G1 is man made.Funny you knew that.I know who made it.Took a bag of concrete up there in the off season.Diversion of a natural watershed is illegal.Slippery slope there though.One of the best quotes I ever heard about G1 though was from a guy who was opposed to farming-(jokingly)"fine,when I climb it I'll just make sure I'm not having fun".

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Dec 31, 2010 - 04:51pm PT

I doubt their is much erosion from ice farming. The erosion happens when wet water flows. Those streams up high are used to occasional very high water from the odd year of massively fast snowmelt.

I think it is cool. One really low impact way to farm ice is to go up to some weak drips that rarely form, hang an old rope, and the drip follows the rope and will build up. Take the rope down in the spring and re-use it.

I know of a lot of routes like that. I see zero impact, other than a fixed rope that is only visible through binoculars a couple of months a year.

Mixed climbing does damage the rock. Lots of evidence of that. I hear that the Vail stuff is pretty pocketed now. My buds say that it is wicked fun, though, although they can't even figure out how legit it is...

And I have heard mentioned that the Ouray employees do a great, and pretty much 24 hour a day job. I am pretty darn green, and I see no problem. Compared to all of the water lines scarfing water from streams for municipal use, this is very tame stuff.

Petah_

Ice climber

Minneapolis

Dec 25, 2014 - 03:37pm PT

From am ethical standpoint I don't see any violations, unless of course you are trespassing, causing harm to the environment, destroying property or generally being an ass.

Farmed ice climbing is much closer to climbing on natural ice than gym climbing is to climbing on natural rock.

Here in Minnesota we have a very unique and fortunate climbing area at the Sandstone Ice Park. With the city of Sandstone's blessing they have allowed the Minnesota Climber's Association (MCA) to farm a retired quarry that is currently a city park. The city provided a water source and the MCA provides the pipe, hoses, shower heads and volunteer hours.

The City administration is very supportive of getting people to their quiet town. Administrators often stop by events, such as the Sandstone Ice Fest http://www.sandstoneicefest.com/index.html.

Since we are using city water, we are conscientious of its use. Any overflow finds is way back to the water table or the adjacent Kettle River. Since the area is a former rock quarry, it has already been drilled, blasted and manipulated by humans.

Two of my climbing friends, both living on separate river cliffs, have farmed ice in their backyards. Fun times.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Dec 25, 2014 - 04:42pm PT

Moveing water from an existing 3 to make a 5 seems like a bit of an ethical no no to me. if it is an existing lead climb then you are doing something that may negativly affect the experience of folks who are used to doing that climb in it's natural state? grade 3 leader plans his/her day and get out there to find that elitist climbers changed the grade of their favorite climb from a 3 to a 5? That would be a bummer INMOP

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Dec 25, 2014 - 04:46pm PT

of course if the result is really really good you might be able to convience me;)

wbw

Trad climber

'cross the great divide

Dec 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT

I don't see any ethical dilemma, it's water. It has however caused potential access issues in Boulder Canyon a few years back. We rarely get the sustained cold necessary for good conditions but there was a year when some amazing climbs were farmed. It ended in a disagreement involving bolts, and there has not really been any ice farming since. As I recall, the Forest Service was contacted and it didn't seem like a good thing. Whatever . . the idea of ice farming is appealing because of the amount of time and effort to get to ice from here.

While I don't personally care for the crowds at the Ice Park, it is an amazing place to get a bunch of climbing done, and the folks running it know what they're doing.

hobo_dan

Social climber

Minnesota

Dec 26, 2014 - 07:33am PT

"Man, high school sure has changed a lot since I was kicked out"
-J. Ramone

The last time I was in Sandstone (lets call it 1985) there was just one 80 foot pencil of ice. If you were the early bird- you climbed the worm. The good thing was there was not too many folks willing to do the drive or stupid enough to risk having that baby fall on you!
That curtain of ice looks like lots of people can get it if they want it. Looks pretty fat also.
But an ice park? A climbing Association? The City Council stopping by? It's probably a good idea as it will have more people protecting the resources. Still I kind of like the old word of mouth communications, you had to know someone who had heard something, and then you would wander around trying to find out if it was true or where it was happening. Or you'd go for the blind date and show up at the trail head hoping to find another car.....
An aside--wandering alone at the base of the climbs, nobody- anywhere (it was the summer of the great gear famine of '77- I hear the cow bells from a set of Hexes- I peak around the corner and there is a man, sporting the rakish fashion of the mendicant, but on his back is an enormous blue box pack, that has the word Lowe stamped on it- obviously someone with refined taste- as we circle and sniff each other to find out if the climbing will work, I ask his name and he just says "Blue".

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Dec 26, 2014 - 08:16am PT

I wish there was more of it here in CA. We do not have a lot of consistent steep ice here. Would be damn cool if we had a Hyalite here somewhere. Things like Cleopatra's Needle just blow you away and turn you off from going to Lee Vining. I would if it was closer, but with a 8.5+ hour drive during winter, damn, it better be a 4 day weekend linked with Owens or bouldering in Bishop. Or something!