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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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I have been having some ethical delimas in my head and would like other climbers opinions on ice farming. There has been a history of it in the Black Hills for about at least 15 years and there is not a lot of ice to start with. I know other comunities have embraced it in CA, CO, and MT. Any opinions would be enlightening.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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I think it's fine and I'm a person who won't climb indoors on plastic. Think about it- it's real ice not some artificial material. All you are doing is putting real water where it hasn't gone before and letting ma nature take over. There is a lot more accessible rock for climbing than ice. Also, if you put that water in a place where it becomes ice as the seasons change it become H2O again and goes into the watershed kinda natural like.
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Lawny
Trad climber
Arvada, CO
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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Mike, I think the main thing you have to look at is how chainging the water flow effects erosion. In the case of the Hills and community cave it is somewhat off the beaten path and I think you have done a very good job of making the most out of the small amount of ice available. The ice community in the Hills owes you for all the hard work and minimal visual and ecological impact. John
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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no expert here, but I would consider how to mitigate erosion, if any. Also, make sure the water source is not private (unless permission) and that it doesn't drain a riparian area especially if sensitive species are involved.
The point being, don't make an access issue where there was none.
Otherwise, go for it.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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Ever worry about it causing access issues?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Good thoughts Lawny on the ecological ramifications, I was going at it from a philosophical perspective- artificial vs. natural. Effects on the environment always need to be considered. Access as well.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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Ice farming is awesome-look to the left
EDIT: that's NW MT right there. There's LOTS of ice in MT,sure, but not like that-it's 12 feet from a major highway and hand grown!
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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Mike,
Curious as to what you've heard/seen about Ice "farmed" in Montana--I reckon there could be a bunch of spots to do it, but with so much natural ice around this State, it seems not worth the trouble.
It was done "accidentally" in the late 70's to mid-80's up near Mystic Lake (W. Rosebud) when the wooden water-way for the Power Plant above the granite crags would ooze and seep. Those days became forgotten memories when it was replaced by a metal one:-(
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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I was refering to West Rosebud, but have also seen it done with some nice results on I believe Hellroaring in East Rosebud that just moved the water over about 20-30ft on a much steeper piece of rock which resulted in something closer to a 5 when the flow is normally 3+/4. It seems that one of the qualifications for this to happen is that it would have to be close to the road or no one would have the motivation to carry needed equipment very far. This quality also brings more attention as it is close to the road.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
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Interesting and cool about E-Rb--it seems that the Forest Service does have issues with water diversion (even up Hyalite), but generally have no means to "police" it in effect, therefore it happens under the radar.
Keep stickin' the picks:-)
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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Is Ouray Private? How did they get the be A-OK from the powers that be?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Not sure about the property logistics of the Ouray Ice Park--maybe some Colorado locals will chime in about the development of access there.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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What kind of a jack ass would do this?
so they could do this
Loser!
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Ouray is man made, at least a poprtion of it is. I am not sure of the logistics, but I have a client in Northern Michigan who's brother owns the power plant where they divert the water from. Doninni might know the details.
Prod.
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Bschmitz
Ice climber
mountain view
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
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G1 is man made...you can shut the flow off and on at the top, with the rock stopper:) There is farmed ice in OR.
What I want to know about is where is the farmed ice in CA? Valley?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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I'll try to help. I was on the BOD of the Ouray Ice Park about 5 years ago but now spend my winters in Patagonia and have lost touch.
The Ice Park has been quite a winter boon for Ouray, a resort town that previously only had a summer season. It's a non profit entity with a BOD and several seasonal employees. There is a substantial cost to running the park. Operating capital comes from two main sources; a voluntary membership that gets you discounts on rooms, restaurants etc. and the Ouray Ice Festival. Admission to the park is free, the membership (it used to be $35) is entirely voluntary. Costs are not trivial, employees are out every night maintaing the park. The fund raising activities seem to be covering costs as well as providing funds for improvement.
While I no longer climb in the park it is my feeling that it is one of the best venues on the planet for developing and improving ice climbing skills. There are nearly 200 ice and mixed climbs covering every range of difficulty.
Most of the park is on Forest Service land but there was a movement to acquire that land by the Ice Park and the city of Ouray. I don't know how that came off. The water belongs to a generous local (mentioned in an earlier post) who leases the rights to it to the Ice Park for $1 a year.
The park is in a natural gorge of the Uncompahgre River and the melted remnants of the park end up in the Colorado River where they don't quite make it into the Gulf of Mexico.
I have to say that some of this info. may be incorrect as I have not been directly involved for a few years.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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Ever worry about it causing access issues?
Mike, yeah, in National Parks and on National Forest, things like diverting water sources will probably not be looked on favorably. Most farming has been under the radar, as stated above, even if the net impact is absolutely negligble.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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As is trimming vegitation, cleaning routes, making new trails and at one time placing fixed anchors in wilderness which I would imagine all have a longer lasting affect than moving water that usually would go right back into the same drainage that it was going to in the first place. It just takes a little longer after it is frozen. I am not saying that justifies the ends, but I would argue that most rock climbing places much more impact on the environment than ice climbing being it trad or sport. Look at the wear on Incredible Hand Crack at Indian Creek, the amount of troundled dath flakes that have been cleaned on trad routes so they are safe, trails that form to routes, and the impacts of bouldering, ect. After the ice and snow melts there is little evidence a climbers has been there IMHO. I know in the local area the cleaning done on sport routes is quite substantial of which land managers are quite aware with little concern.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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My understanding is that Lee Vining is not farmed, but it is from leakiy pipes.
There has been talk of farming there, but I beleive the utility would have to agree to that.
There are people on this site that know far more about this than me.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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dschmitz, I knew that the Genesis area has gone through various "adjustments" regarding things up top--I'm on the Board of the SouthWestMontanaClimber'sCoalition (SWMCC), and this topic, G1 and diversion farming, has come to our attention from both sides of the coin a few different times. I think that it it pretty much worked out and a done deal.
JoJo, you out there?
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