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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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I have been having some ethical delimas in my head and would like other climbers opinions on ice farming. There has been a history of it in the Black Hills for about at least 15 years and there is not a lot of ice to start with. I know other comunities have embraced it in CA, CO, and MT. Any opinions would be enlightening.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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I think it's fine and I'm a person who won't climb indoors on plastic. Think about it- it's real ice not some artificial material. All you are doing is putting real water where it hasn't gone before and letting ma nature take over. There is a lot more accessible rock for climbing than ice. Also, if you put that water in a place where it becomes ice as the seasons change it become H2O again and goes into the watershed kinda natural like.
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Lawny
Trad climber
Arvada, CO
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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Mike, I think the main thing you have to look at is how chainging the water flow effects erosion. In the case of the Hills and community cave it is somewhat off the beaten path and I think you have done a very good job of making the most out of the small amount of ice available. The ice community in the Hills owes you for all the hard work and minimal visual and ecological impact. John
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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no expert here, but I would consider how to mitigate erosion, if any. Also, make sure the water source is not private (unless permission) and that it doesn't drain a riparian area especially if sensitive species are involved.
The point being, don't make an access issue where there was none.
Otherwise, go for it.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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Ever worry about it causing access issues?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Good thoughts Lawny on the ecological ramifications, I was going at it from a philosophical perspective- artificial vs. natural. Effects on the environment always need to be considered. Access as well.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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Ice farming is awesome-look to the left
EDIT: that's NW MT right there. There's LOTS of ice in MT,sure, but not like that-it's 12 feet from a major highway and hand grown!
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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Mike,
Curious as to what you've heard/seen about Ice "farmed" in Montana--I reckon there could be a bunch of spots to do it, but with so much natural ice around this State, it seems not worth the trouble.
It was done "accidentally" in the late 70's to mid-80's up near Mystic Lake (W. Rosebud) when the wooden water-way for the Power Plant above the granite crags would ooze and seep. Those days became forgotten memories when it was replaced by a metal one:-(
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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I was refering to West Rosebud, but have also seen it done with some nice results on I believe Hellroaring in East Rosebud that just moved the water over about 20-30ft on a much steeper piece of rock which resulted in something closer to a 5 when the flow is normally 3+/4. It seems that one of the qualifications for this to happen is that it would have to be close to the road or no one would have the motivation to carry needed equipment very far. This quality also brings more attention as it is close to the road.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
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Interesting and cool about E-Rb--it seems that the Forest Service does have issues with water diversion (even up Hyalite), but generally have no means to "police" it in effect, therefore it happens under the radar.
Keep stickin' the picks:-)
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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Is Ouray Private? How did they get the be A-OK from the powers that be?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Not sure about the property logistics of the Ouray Ice Park--maybe some Colorado locals will chime in about the development of access there.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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What kind of a jack ass would do this?
so they could do this
Loser!
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Ouray is man made, at least a poprtion of it is. I am not sure of the logistics, but I have a client in Northern Michigan who's brother owns the power plant where they divert the water from. Doninni might know the details.
Prod.
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Bschmitz
Ice climber
mountain view
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
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G1 is man made...you can shut the flow off and on at the top, with the rock stopper:) There is farmed ice in OR.
What I want to know about is where is the farmed ice in CA? Valley?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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I'll try to help. I was on the BOD of the Ouray Ice Park about 5 years ago but now spend my winters in Patagonia and have lost touch.
The Ice Park has been quite a winter boon for Ouray, a resort town that previously only had a summer season. It's a non profit entity with a BOD and several seasonal employees. There is a substantial cost to running the park. Operating capital comes from two main sources; a voluntary membership that gets you discounts on rooms, restaurants etc. and the Ouray Ice Festival. Admission to the park is free, the membership (it used to be $35) is entirely voluntary. Costs are not trivial, employees are out every night maintaing the park. The fund raising activities seem to be covering costs as well as providing funds for improvement.
While I no longer climb in the park it is my feeling that it is one of the best venues on the planet for developing and improving ice climbing skills. There are nearly 200 ice and mixed climbs covering every range of difficulty.
Most of the park is on Forest Service land but there was a movement to acquire that land by the Ice Park and the city of Ouray. I don't know how that came off. The water belongs to a generous local (mentioned in an earlier post) who leases the rights to it to the Ice Park for $1 a year.
The park is in a natural gorge of the Uncompahgre River and the melted remnants of the park end up in the Colorado River where they don't quite make it into the Gulf of Mexico.
I have to say that some of this info. may be incorrect as I have not been directly involved for a few years.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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Ever worry about it causing access issues?
Mike, yeah, in National Parks and on National Forest, things like diverting water sources will probably not be looked on favorably. Most farming has been under the radar, as stated above, even if the net impact is absolutely negligble.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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As is trimming vegitation, cleaning routes, making new trails and at one time placing fixed anchors in wilderness which I would imagine all have a longer lasting affect than moving water that usually would go right back into the same drainage that it was going to in the first place. It just takes a little longer after it is frozen. I am not saying that justifies the ends, but I would argue that most rock climbing places much more impact on the environment than ice climbing being it trad or sport. Look at the wear on Incredible Hand Crack at Indian Creek, the amount of troundled dath flakes that have been cleaned on trad routes so they are safe, trails that form to routes, and the impacts of bouldering, ect. After the ice and snow melts there is little evidence a climbers has been there IMHO. I know in the local area the cleaning done on sport routes is quite substantial of which land managers are quite aware with little concern.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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My understanding is that Lee Vining is not farmed, but it is from leakiy pipes.
There has been talk of farming there, but I beleive the utility would have to agree to that.
There are people on this site that know far more about this than me.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 25, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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dschmitz, I knew that the Genesis area has gone through various "adjustments" regarding things up top--I'm on the Board of the SouthWestMontanaClimber'sCoalition (SWMCC), and this topic, G1 and diversion farming, has come to our attention from both sides of the coin a few different times. I think that it it pretty much worked out and a done deal.
JoJo, you out there?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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I would be interested in how yu approached the issue with the land managers in MT. All things considered I feel it is pretty benign.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
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Feb 25, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
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I have to post on this, because, I am one of the seasonal ice farmers in Ouray.
Jim: the land, the majority of the park, except for the Five Fingers and the Shithouse wall I believe (may be wrong) is all owned by the owner of the Ouray Hydro Plant. He is a very nice guy and has been very generous in allowing the ice park to continue.
The water source comes from the city's overflow, from the Weehawken Spring, not the penstock, though it still leeks sometimes and forms the yellow lines you can see. There is one right now in the Schoolroom and route number 1. If for some reason, the town of Ouray was short on water in the winter, Ice Park would not get any, but that will probably never happen.
As far as ethical reasons against farming, I don't see any if all the respective land owners/managers are ok with it. Ouray is fortunate to have a source of water above a gorge, that stays cold enough to grow big fat ice climbs. But all of us climbers are really fortunate to have the owner of the Hydro Plant be so friendly and cool about it. About access issues, to keep the Park going, respect the property, and follow posted rules. Stuff like walking on penstock or adjacent walkways (right after the Schoolroom, headed to Grad School) or anchoring off the handrails in SR are the kind of things that are not supposed to happen. That and parking in the employee parking, which in reality is the Hydro parking.
Anyway, cheers yall,
Pierce
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10b4me
Ice climber
Ice Caves at the Sads
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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I see no problem with it unless it adversely effects the environment. from what I've seen in Lee Vining, the ice has not been farmed(and some routes suffer because of it).
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 25, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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After the ice and snow melts there is little evidence a climbers has been there IMHO.
I dunno. I've seen it done, with amazing effects. But, mostly what I see is a very few folks who are psyched enough to do it, and, maintain it. After the ice is gone, all that piping is still around. And the next season, when it doesn't get hooked up, its an eyesore, and no one around to take it down (although we chop bits of it out of the ice and snow and haul it down).
Diverting the stream flow on BLM or FS land in Utah? I think there's a huge access risk. Especially in watershed sensitive areas like near SLC.
I can't imagine, as tight as water rights are in the west, that land managers would green light any water diversion out of a stream course.
I hear folks talk about doing it all the time. We just have such a limited amount of ice here (at least close to town, and super accessable) and a huge number of climbers. At least that's the excuse. Hate to lose what little we have because a sideways land manager got wind of farmed ice.
Hard to keep quiet. New ice routes? Bring on the photog's...etc. Funny, walking from terminal C to D in the SLC airport there's a nice shot of the Bridleviel Falls area in Provo Canyon. I can tell when the photo was takin', 'cause I can still see the upper farmed ice, which hasn't been hooked up for a couple of years.
Farmed ice on public land? I guess I'm in the "not worth the risk" catagory, but, I do know it goes on.
Did the FS really buy into the Genesis area stuff in Hyalite? Or do they either not know or not say?
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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I agree that if a mess is left behind that will jepordize access faster than anything, but I have personally cleaned up some places that were farmed and the people who did it just left it there. Some of it had been left for more than a year. That is just lazyness not the way it has to or should be just like "fixed" pads and other things left at crags that are not "supposed" to be there. One thing is that access is limited to people who have the tools and experience to get there in the winter, but in the summer people without those tools and skills can an do go there. One other point is that in a place like Lee Vining I cant imagine that the leaking pipe has hardly any environmental damage compared to the presence of the pipe in the first place that is probably emptying a whole drainage of most of its water. Which land managers seem to be completely OK with and are even promoting more of in places like BC apperently.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 26, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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Brian, as far as I know, G1 and its doings is a touchy subject in the GalNatFor--I will just say that it is a done deal...
USFS Land managers (at least in these parts) have no tolerance for diversion of water on "their" lands, but they realize that they do not have the resources to stop this tactic of "farming" from happening.
Out of sight, out of mind seems to be their mantra often when dealing with rogue actions.
Approaching them before hand only draws attention to the matter and causes problems for all.
G1's formation is in the history books, and sets no precedent--it merely is an out-layer in the system of Fed. management.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 04:41am PT
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What if the climb is visable from the road and not that hard to hike to and has killer ice compatatively to the rest of the area. Would you talk to land managers then?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Feb 27, 2010 - 05:21am PT
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Mike, visible from the road is a a warning flag, unfortunately--that means that ANY traffic (especially local) would notice that something is different, eventually. The odds are pretty good that you could maybe get away with it for a season (or two), but expect to be eventually approached. There really is no "plan" of action to take with the USFS, they would just fix/close it and then always be aware of it possibly happening in the future.
Be stealth and be quiet about it would be your best course of action--forbidden fruit terrain, as poaching skate boarders would call it...
Stories and adventures to you if you pull it off:-)
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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Thanks for the expereinced advice.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Feb 28, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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Ouray, Ouray, Ouray.......
I had been going down there every year including the first year the locals made the park a reality. Just happen to be driving by long ago with the car full of gear and was like wow look at this.
You used to be able to drive up and past the Camp Bird climbs on the road.....that was scary........
This winter was the first I've not gone to Ouray for the Ice Park or natural flows.
It's just too crowded. NOW I appreciate the Ice Park for what it does for those that use it. I like that it's there.
The Ice Fest is another matter, as well as the Ice Park Board. I mean they go around town once a year asking for money from the local business to "donate to what makes their lively hood happen in the winter."
But the board members asking for the "donations" from the local business NEVER include the business in the Ice Fest, I.E. food from local restaurants for the events, it's all fast food sh#t from Montrose.
As well as the board members coming into the local restaurants to beg for money, never coming in to spend it themselves the whole year. WTF
If you go to the "Ice Fest" it's $15 bucks to walk thru each door that's in front of you. Wanna go see a slide show after the crappy meal they serve, another $15, wanna do this or that $15......
I've got close ties to that town and hear all the local rant and rave for the park and against.......some locals feel the whole thing will blow up in it's own face one day.
Now as the previous poster mentions all this is contingent on one person letting them be there......well what happens if this owner sells or passes away and some one new comes in and isn't as "nice".
Again I appreciate the Ice Park, but well I hope it stays around for what it does for people...........
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hielo
Ice climber
Sonora, Mexico
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Feb 28, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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I am the original "developer" of the Ouray Ice Park. The story is that several locals began dripping water through hoses and a wonderful climbing venue was created. While the volunteer work was very generous, it was preceded by over a year of legal/political maneuvering.
Prior to the ice park, a leak in a defunct City reservoir created several routes in the Uncompahgre Gorge. They were discovered and climbed in the '70's (right Jim Donini?). The cliffs contained a "penstock" that carried river water to a 100 year old hydro plant in town. The penstock and 100 feet of land (the cliffs) were owned by a power company that posted no trespassing signs and occasionally requested intervention by the sheriff.
The power company went bankrupt and the plant, land, penstock, and a dam (one mile upriver), was purchased by Eric Jacobsen. Eric is a hydroelectric power provider from Telluride and Ouray. In 1993, over a few beers, Eric generously agreed to grant an easement for legal use of the facility if I could provide insurance to satisfy FERC. Sounds impossible, right?
The Access Fund advised me of a Colorado Recreational Users statute that protects landowners from legal liability if they do not charge a fee for the use of their land. After being laughed out of a meeting at the Ouray City Council, I worked with the County attorney, Mike Hockersmith. We drafted and executed an easement with Eric and Ouray County. We also secured an easement with the Forest service that owned some of the land along the gorge cliff. The County's insurance carrier was familiar with the statute and provided the needed insurance.
The first year the park opened, we used river water from the penstock. This created rust-colored ice but the frigid water made great climbs very quickly. In subsequent years, we utilized surplus City water that was overflowing into the river. It was much warmer, so I utilized the shower heads to cool down the water before in touched the ground. They are still utilized today.
The success of the park led to the creation of the non-profit corporation that manages the facility. It is a win-win for climbers and the City of Ouray. The park is located within the City of Ouray and was developed with roads and the hydro facility assets before the park was created. It was not wilderness land and the water that forms the ice returns to the Uncompahgre River and eventually to the Colorado River. The Ouray Ice Park fits my conscience quite nicely.
Adding: The world divides generally into two categories: 1) Those that get things done, and
2) those that bitch about those that get things done,
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City (CC,NV)
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Feb 28, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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hielo
Thank you for getting "things done" in Ouray. I have enjoyed going to Ouray at least once a year for the last 6 years to enjoy all they great ice and more importantly.....the great town. We always meet the greatest people there...local and visiting climbers. STRONG work!!!!!!
Shawn
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Feb 28, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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I'm a novice to ice climbing. Went to Ouray Ice festival in January with Bill McConachie & Frank Baker. Attended 3 clinics...one of them with Fabrizio Zangrilli. We had a blast, met lots of colorful people, including the Cliff Bar reps, enjoyed the local restaurants and hot spring, and did some awesome ice climbing in the park. I would be curious to see what the box canyon looks like during the summer. Here's what it looked like in January.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 28, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Wow, I think that picture
just inspired me to take up ice climbing!
That's hot!
Yes, please post an additional
picture showing the summer look.
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hielo
Ice climber
Sonora, Mexico
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Feb 28, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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Well, I posted . . . so here's the deal . . .
The Ice park is not in "Box Canyon". That is a tourist attraction that is located at the point near the Ice Park where Canyon Creek flows into the Uncompahgre River. The reason that this distinction must be observed is that Box canyon falls charges an entrance fee. The Ice park is FREE. It is a legal distinction that allows the Ice Park to function under Colorado law. No fee = no liability.
The Ice Park will never charge a fee. This is not to say that Box Canyon Falls is not an incredible thing to observe and well worth the admission ticket. It is indeed all of that.
But the Ouray ice Park is supported by contributions from many sources including Annual Memberships, the Festival sponsors and shows, the Ouray merchants and Chamber of Commerce, and any number of contributions from people and organizations that recognize the efforts of a tiny town to do what many thought impossible. Climb on!
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Feb 28, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification hielo...the above photo was taken from the bridge at the Ouray Ice Park overlooking "Pic 'O the Vic" and "Tangled Up in Blue". I was wondering what the canyon under the bridge looks like in the summer when there is no ice. Is there any obvious environmental, ecological, erosion-related,etc. damage to the canyon? Is there any monitoring of water quality down stream of the Ice Park when the ice melts in the Spring?
Here's a photo of one of the athletes in the Competiton...
Bill McConachie sans la corde
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Feb 28, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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Nice pics and great info ! Loved the ice park this year -- went in Feb. with a couple of friends.
obligatory Schoolroom shot
overhanging TR for gym-like fun
pillars, mixed, and other goodness
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hielo
Ice climber
Sonora, Mexico
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@ tuolumne_tradster . . .
I no longer reside in Ouray but visit every Summer. Perhaps we will hear from people more knowledgeable than I regarding your ecological issues.
I am not aware of any damage to the canyon other than the loose rock that is deliberately removed from the walls as a safety measure. I do believe that the river quality is monitored but I do not know the frequency. The purpose of the monitoring is related to the effort to clean up the river from mining-related contaminants. The headwaters of the Uncompahgre River is Red Mountain creek which is located in a very large historic mining district. I do not know whether the ice park board has any contact with federal agencies that are attempting to restore the river to a fishery.
I appreciate your concern.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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hielo: thanks, I appreciate the info. I'd expect the environmental impacts from the Ice Park to be minimal especially compared to acid mine drainage upstream. Although I could imagine how melting of the ice walls in the Spring might accelerate erosion of the canyon walls and increase sediment load in the Uncomphagre River.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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Climbed some produce today. The shutter on the camera got stuck on one but it was fat and in the 60's today after work.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:17am PT
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Mike, where's that at. I thought I'd have to hang up my tools after this last warm spell. I live just south east of Custer.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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I bet the Harney flow is still fat as well.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2010 - 12:41am PT
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Anyone got a good crop this year?
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 24, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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I vote cool, as it seems most of the posters here do. And actually, I imagine the riparian/erosion/etc. impacts are not very considerable. Riparian vegetation makes its living during (especially) the early summer, by which time any diversion has long since ceased. Hard to imagine an adverse impact there. Erosion issues arise when there are sudden spikes in discharge rates; in an extreme example, the major rain-on-snow events we have in California every few years or decades. I would imagine that farmed ice melts relatively slowly over a period of many days or weeks, thus unlikely to trigger erosion that is outside the normal range for the snowmelt season; on the contrary, probably a slight enhancement for downstream riparian vegetation.
There is one definite concern, specifically that, if ice is farmed on a good rock climbing area, it will not be long before mixed and drytooling on the rock routes causes a huge amount of damage to that resource. This is not an imaginary issue; some pretty significant damage on routes in New England for one example. But farming on a choss pile, or on rock that's wet/muddy/etc. and should be left vegetated and not cleaned off for rock routes in the summer, seems excellent.
Permits ought to be feasible to get, depending somewhat on who's the district ranger or supervisor. There's a process, some paper to shovel, but diversion of water within a drainage basin (not outside it) during the non-growing season, without placing fill or otherwise trashing the source water body, should be totally doable. There's no consumptive use (starts as surface water and remains surface water within the same basin the whole time). Stream permit (most states), probably no federal Sect. 404 permit because you wouldn't be filling or excavating within a water of U.S., if federal land there would be an E.A. but probably pretty doable. I'd be happy to look into it from afar, thus not attracting attention to anything that might be flying under the radar; fire me an e-mail.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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Dec 24, 2010 - 04:18am PT
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Tell me farming doesn't rock
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Stewart Johnson
climber
yo mama
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Dec 24, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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dont remember that one ron,
heres a two pitch product.
cheers stewie
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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Stewert that thing looks bad ass! Merry christmas to you.
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RickyRo
Gym climber
Tuskaloosa , AL
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Dec 31, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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So the ice park in Ouray isn't letting the word get out that so far this season not much is open, school room and kids wall. Duncans Delight fell down, not a word of that out there There's a ton of people, some all the way from Europe, trying to climb 10 routes. What a
joke. Basic subterfuge like ski areas do.
Plus I got this coupon on my car from the Ouray Brewery, the one built by
Haliburton money. Apparently the 'Ice Czar' also is a partner in this 'brewery' so it sounds like a conflict of interest, esp. for a supposed non-profit, since he is also head of the Ice Park Board.
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Dec 31, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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G1 is man made.Funny you knew that.I know who made it.Took a bag of concrete up there in the off season.Diversion of a natural watershed is illegal.Slippery slope there though.One of the best quotes I ever heard about G1 though was from a guy who was opposed to farming-(jokingly)"fine,when I climb it I'll just make sure I'm not having fun".
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 31, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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I doubt their is much erosion from ice farming. The erosion happens when wet water flows. Those streams up high are used to occasional very high water from the odd year of massively fast snowmelt.
I think it is cool. One really low impact way to farm ice is to go up to some weak drips that rarely form, hang an old rope, and the drip follows the rope and will build up. Take the rope down in the spring and re-use it.
I know of a lot of routes like that. I see zero impact, other than a fixed rope that is only visible through binoculars a couple of months a year.
Mixed climbing does damage the rock. Lots of evidence of that. I hear that the Vail stuff is pretty pocketed now. My buds say that it is wicked fun, though, although they can't even figure out how legit it is...
And I have heard mentioned that the Ouray employees do a great, and pretty much 24 hour a day job. I am pretty darn green, and I see no problem. Compared to all of the water lines scarfing water from streams for municipal use, this is very tame stuff.
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Petah_
Ice climber
Minneapolis
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Dec 25, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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From am ethical standpoint I don't see any violations, unless of course you are trespassing, causing harm to the environment, destroying property or generally being an ass.
Farmed ice climbing is much closer to climbing on natural ice than gym climbing is to climbing on natural rock.
Here in Minnesota we have a very unique and fortunate climbing area at the Sandstone Ice Park. With the city of Sandstone's blessing they have allowed the Minnesota Climber's Association (MCA) to farm a retired quarry that is currently a city park. The city provided a water source and the MCA provides the pipe, hoses, shower heads and volunteer hours.
The City administration is very supportive of getting people to their quiet town. Administrators often stop by events, such as the Sandstone Ice Fest http://www.sandstoneicefest.com/index.html.
Since we are using city water, we are conscientious of its use. Any overflow finds is way back to the water table or the adjacent Kettle River. Since the area is a former rock quarry, it has already been drilled, blasted and manipulated by humans.
Two of my climbing friends, both living on separate river cliffs, have farmed ice in their backyards. Fun times.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 25, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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Moveing water from an existing 3 to make a 5 seems like a bit of an ethical no no to me. if it is an existing lead climb then you are doing something that may negativly affect the experience of folks who are used to doing that climb in it's natural state? grade 3 leader plans his/her day and get out there to find that elitist climbers changed the grade of their favorite climb from a 3 to a 5? That would be a bummer INMOP
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 25, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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of course if the result is really really good you might be able to convience me;)
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 25, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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I don't see any ethical dilemma, it's water. It has however caused potential access issues in Boulder Canyon a few years back. We rarely get the sustained cold necessary for good conditions but there was a year when some amazing climbs were farmed. It ended in a disagreement involving bolts, and there has not really been any ice farming since. As I recall, the Forest Service was contacted and it didn't seem like a good thing. Whatever . . the idea of ice farming is appealing because of the amount of time and effort to get to ice from here.
While I don't personally care for the crowds at the Ice Park, it is an amazing place to get a bunch of climbing done, and the folks running it know what they're doing.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Dec 26, 2014 - 07:33am PT
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"Man, high school sure has changed a lot since I was kicked out"
-J. Ramone
The last time I was in Sandstone (lets call it 1985) there was just one 80 foot pencil of ice. If you were the early bird- you climbed the worm. The good thing was there was not too many folks willing to do the drive or stupid enough to risk having that baby fall on you!
That curtain of ice looks like lots of people can get it if they want it. Looks pretty fat also.
But an ice park? A climbing Association? The City Council stopping by? It's probably a good idea as it will have more people protecting the resources. Still I kind of like the old word of mouth communications, you had to know someone who had heard something, and then you would wander around trying to find out if it was true or where it was happening. Or you'd go for the blind date and show up at the trail head hoping to find another car.....
An aside--wandering alone at the base of the climbs, nobody- anywhere (it was the summer of the great gear famine of '77- I hear the cow bells from a set of Hexes- I peak around the corner and there is a man, sporting the rakish fashion of the mendicant, but on his back is an enormous blue box pack, that has the word Lowe stamped on it- obviously someone with refined taste- as we circle and sniff each other to find out if the climbing will work, I ask his name and he just says "Blue".
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 26, 2014 - 08:16am PT
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I wish there was more of it here in CA. We do not have a lot of consistent steep ice here. Would be damn cool if we had a Hyalite here somewhere. Things like Cleopatra's Needle just blow you away and turn you off from going to Lee Vining. I would if it was closer, but with a 8.5+ hour drive during winter, damn, it better be a 4 day weekend linked with Owens or bouldering in Bishop. Or something!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2016 - 04:04am PT
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Is the fang farmed other than the rope hanging.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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It's pretty cool...it's real ice not an artificial climbing wall.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
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Stewart is that in lake forest Illinois? Chugach that looks great.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 12, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
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^^^
Given the background, it appears to be somewhere in CA. Don't see much topography like that in Illinois.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 12, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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It's the ghetto in the meadow.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Dec 12, 2016 - 01:58pm PT
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Here in Colorado we have had both intentional ice farming and incidental ice farming. The upper portions of the Uncompagre River Gorge started out as incidental ice farming in the early 1970's due to leaky diversion pipes. That is what initiated the original idea to intentionally farm ice in Ouray farther down the canyon. The owner of the water rights is indeed a generous man to lease those rights to the park during the winter. that being said, he really didn't use those water rights in the winter anyway, but his support of the ice park has resulted in much beneficial business activity for the residents of Ouray and was a very community-minded thing to do. Similar leaky irrigation conduits has added to the ice in Boulder Canyon and in parts of Clear Creek Canyon just west of Golden. Unfortunately, water infrastructure improvements have diminished some of the ice that typically formed in these places in the past. I have also observed clandestine farming wherein parties unknown used hoses to shift natural water flow right or left a few meters to make a cool climb into an awesome climb. I don't know who they are, but they win my vote, as no harm whatsoever has been done to anything.
Insofar as issues with potential negative impact, usurpation of water rights and trespass on either private property or on public property wherein some governmental entity is concerned with liability issues is pretty much it. As has been stated above, all that ice returns to the drainage basin from whence it came, just later in the season, so no real negative impact. I agree with various posters who observe that climbing trails to popular rock outcrops leave a much longer lasting legacy on the land than does ice farming.
From a purely personal perspective, I love farmed ice and would like to see more of it. This is the kind of farm support bill I would really like to see pass congress - lord knows Iowa and Kansas could use more ice climbs.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 12, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
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Stewart's photo is taken at Donner Summit. Unfortunately no more farming there :(
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| Messages 1 - 67 of total 67 in this topic |
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