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Connor
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 21, 2005 - 03:16pm PT
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Haggis, nice letter to 'Mr. S.'
Pretty funny LEB is dishing out advice on how to be succinct, though. Blah, blah blah blah, blah blah. Apparently she is a writing coach, AS WELL as a medical professional! Who knew?
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 22, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
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Whoa!!!
Skimmed through the thread, quite a bit to chew on here… this will probably be a long post, but I'll try to clear up what I can.
As for Camp 4:
I know we all won’t believe it until it happens, but Camp 4 is going to undergo quite the facelift within a few years. It will be expanded to twice the size (toward Swan Slab), another bathroom will be added, the current bathroom will be revamped, the kiosk will be redone, and the parking area will be expanded. These and other changes have been long in the coming and long in the planning. The whole process began well before I started working for “the man” eight years ago, and working out the details has been (and will continue to be) a bumpy ride.
Do I have much power in this process? Am I in charge of what Camp 4 will look like ten years from now? As Billygoat and others have been quick to point out, no, I don’t have much power at all when it comes to large management decisions. As a liaison, however, I do have the ability to give you, the people who actually stay in Camp 4, a strong voice.
This thread is not a new “rant”. I listened to the same complaints when we (the NPS) spent a summer gathering feedback for the planners designing the future of Camp 4, and I read those same complaints again when I catalogued that feedback and personally handed it to the Chief Ranger. Just for the record, using large butcher pages to take comments by the kiosk for a few months, I received an almost equal number of requests for and against adding showers, and an almost equal number of requests for and against paving the parking lot. I also recorded three requests for better lap dance facilities, four complaints about the lack of a beer vending machine, and two comments regarding the lack of croissants (specifically “toasted almond” croissants) at Sunday coffee.
Ok, so, in a few years Camp 4 will be larger, with nicer bathrooms, more sinks, a larger parking lot, and a variety of other “improvements.” Will this make everyone happy? Of course not. Some will say Camp 4 has been ruined, others will rant about the color of the paint on the new bathroom or the brand of drain on the new sinks, and everyone will tell tales from the good old days when Camp 4 was hard core. Am I preemptively discounting these complaints? No way; I’m sure I’ll have a list of my own. The new Camp 4 will have problems, but hopefully it will better serve us all in general.
(Side note: the NPS comment period for the expansion of Camp 4 is long over. Don’t complain, the word went out far and wide two years ago, including on this site, and everyone from the Access Fund to the Japanese Alpine Club submitted comments.)
So, that’s a few years down the road, which doesn’t solve the immediate problems some people have pointed out on this thread: the dirty bathroom, parking problems, etc.
Parking:
Anyone who has come to coffee this summer (or read my posts here) has heard me explain the parking dilemma. As with Camp 4 in general, there’s a long term solution on the way, but in the short term Camp 4 visitors can use “Bus Lot B” across the street to park overnight. Not an ideal solution (you have to move your car by 8:30 so the lot can be used for busses), but it’s been working as a Band-Aid while the park works toward the long term solution.
Bathrooms:
The park’s maintenance staff should have the leaking urinal in the men’s room fixed by later this fall. This will involve closing the bathroom for a while, so the plan is to wait until after the busy season. As for the general cleanliness of the bathrooms… that’s a tough one to fix until we revamp the facility as a whole. The bathrooms get cleaned once a day now, and the real solution would involve some serious construction (tile floors instead of concrete, etc). Same goes for the utility sink where people wash dishes; the solution is more sinks, which won’t happen until the new bathroom. I’m not discounting your comments, just saying “got it, hold tight and a solution is on the way.”
Campsites:
Heads up, the park campground office is planning to put in new fire rings/grills before next season (a few sites already have the new rings), as well as fix the broken bear lockers and replace the numbered post markers.
Time limit:
Man, this subject has seen a few threads of its own. Without rehashing the whole discussion, here’s a few points: Complaining to each other about the one week limit will solve nothing. Providing constructive feedback to park managers is far more likely to make a difference. I’ve talked with supervisors about this subject many times, and there is definitely potential for extending the limit. That being said, such a change will take some creative problem solving on all sides. Breaking the rules as they stand now is not a great route toward an eventual solution.
So what is the best route? Sometimes we in the park know what needs fixing, but more relevant to this conversation - people providing constructive feedback in a productive way can bring about change. Call me idealistic, tell me my head is in the clouds, whatever… I’ve seen it happen time and time again. Ranting about something on supertopo is preaching to choir; writing a letter to the superintendent or speaking with a ranger in person has the potential to actually bring about change. Just for the record, you can write to Yosemite’s superintendent at PO Box 577, Yosemite, CA 95389.
As for letters, Haggis:
If you want to be taken seriously, make sure your facts are correct. The Camp 4 lot holds far more than 25% of the campgrounds visitors. If you are caught camping illegally you are not arrested, and your equipment is not impounded (unless some other charge is involved). Jack Osborne trained for months, but did not stay in Yosemite to do so. YOSAR is not a separate entity from the National Park Service (though your appreciation is much appreciated). These might seem like minor points, but as soon as you start presenting hyperbole and rumor as truth, all of your comments come into question. I’m not questioning your general complaints, just pointing out an important way to tighten up your argument.
Billygoat… sheesh… you’re a serious bummer :) My position was not created by park management as a “tool” toward swaying the hearts and minds of dirt bag climbers. My boss and I carved out this position within the wilderness department to address the many wilderness related climbing issues that were previously falling through the cracks. How that resulted in me dolling out coffee to a bunch of dirt bags is a long story.
Sure, on bad days I feel like a powerless peon working for a gigantic bureaucracy, but most days I know the solution to whatever problem I’m dealing with is really not all that far off. It just takes people working together toward a common goal, and I’d rather be part of the solution than part of the problem (how’s that for management speak?). Have I been brainwashed? I guess I’m not the best judge of that… but I try hard not to get too sucked into the Yosemite soap opera. I’m not a power player in park management, which can be frustrating at times, but I get paid to be out experiencing Yosemite, and that’s why I came here in the first place.
Sure, maybe I’ve got my head in the clouds, but that’s a lot better than burying it in the sand. Someday I’ll be old and bitter, burnt out and cynical, but until then I’m going to try and cash in on what optimism I’ve still got.
Cheers,
-Link
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 22, 2005 - 07:41pm PT
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Link -
God Bless You!!! Keep up the superior work under taxing conditiions!! Your ability to sort through the rants to get to the base line issues are to be commended. Better to have your head in the clouds than in the sand any ole' day. Thank you for the update and to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel... in this day of instant gratification, the government processes are a lifetime to many who cannot imagine the time it has taken to get so many of the 'changes' implemented. peace and stay well.
Mom
P.S.
but those who use Camp 4 still need to clean up after themselves... just leave it better than than how you found it, restroom facilities especially!!
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Ditch Trad
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 22, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
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"The long and the short of it is that there is "no free lunch" anywhere."
No one here has mentioned John Salathe.
Those in the know will know what I'm sayin.
Speaking of..."Do as I say, not as I do."
I think that saying is responsible for 99.9999% of the world's problems...
Link, I'm sure you're stuck between a rock and a rock. I feel for you, but I think a few posts have been pretty insightful as to how the higherups are handling things...
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 22, 2005 - 10:00pm PT
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After reading some of the thread more carefully, to quote bvb:
"Letters to the superintendent, with copies cc:d to your congressional delegation, have a truly enormous impact if the numbers are sufficient. if the superintendent of yosemite were to recieve 400 complaint letters over the next two months regarding the abysmal conditions of the bathrooms in C4, and the general state of disrepair of C4's facilities, the chances are pretty good that C4 janitorial services might get ramped up, and/or some facility improvements would be made."
That's sound advice right there.
-Link
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 22, 2005 - 11:49pm PT
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The main problem is not so much Camp 4, but the massive influx of climbers since the mid 80s. In 1971, when I first showed up in the Vallley (and spent every summer there through undergrad and grad school), the place was basically the same, but with a tenth the crowd. Since there are no facilities save a bathroom, living there is, and has always been, a cave man kind of existence. But before all the folks showed up and the rangers buckled down, you could wheel your car into a campsite, put your speakers on top of the car and let it rip. It had a homey kind of atmosphere, and througout the 70s I rarely ever saw a ranger. Problem is the place hasn't kept up with the increased numbers, so instead of a campground, you basically have a ghetto. I can't imagine staying there now. The thrill is gone . . .
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2005 - 11:59pm PT
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No way Largo, the thrill is not gone, just the life has been sucked out of your soul.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 23, 2005 - 11:28am PT
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Locker, go back to guzzling K-Mart vodka, gassing live animals and abusing orphans and widows.
Warner, let me rephrase my statement(if I can just locate a little of my soul).
The thrill I once got from living in Camp 4 came in large part from a certain communal feel, when you knew most everyone there and you could wander around the place like you owned it. The place has a different feel these days. If I was 18 and psyched for all things Yosemite, I'd certainly put up with Camp 4, however.
JL
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 23, 2005 - 02:54pm PT
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John: here here; that was kinda my point about the “new” Camp 4 (as it will look in a few years after the make over). Hopefully a lot of the “problems” people complain about now will be “solved” after the place is redone (clean bathrooms, more parking, new tables, etc), but of course we’ll reminisce about the good old days when the bathroom was “full on.” Hell, I’m still here in the midst of it all, and I already catch myself getting all misty eyed about the way we “used” to do things just a few years ago. Camp 4 is dead, the climbing scene sucks, El Cap is so last year… just when I start to think along these lines, some dirt bag bumming a shower at my “house” in the valley will mention the Slovenians in the site next to him in camp… and the monkey calls in the meadow, and the pony keg on Lay Lady Ledge… and I realize the scene isn’t dead, it’s just different (the pony keg used to be on Mammoth). As long as the second to last pitch on Sons of Yesterday is perfect hands, the scene in Yosemite will live on.
-Link
PS: Speaking of scenes, just got back from Coffee in C4. Good time… no huge sagas to report. The coffee is still strong, the bathroom still stinks, Midnight Lightening is still greasy, and the crowd is still there.
Next week (Sunday the 30th) will be last Coffee of the season. Bring a costume.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 23, 2005 - 04:34pm PT
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Right you are, Link. So long as restless athletes keep pouring into the Valley the Dream will live on. It's just that way back when there was a place (Camp 4) where climbers could kindle the Dream somewhat in private. Now the place is just something to tolerate. Hope the makeover once again gives climbers a place they can call home, and where it feels like on as well.
JL
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Oct 23, 2005 - 05:26pm PT
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Late in reading this - just want to welcome NickH for showing up. Welcome!!!
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Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
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Oct 24, 2005 - 03:08am PT
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I'm still a young punk climber. I love the idea of c4. I've read about it in so many books. I love hearing the stories of all of the great climbers that spent summers there (and of those that still do.) I have only had the joy (and yes I do consider it a joy) of staying there once. Seems to be always full. Gross bathrooms are better than going in a poop tube. And if you don't feel that way then USE A POOP TUBE! I love stopping by for sunday moring coffee. I love to think about going there just to look at midnight lighting (I don't want to grease it up until I can fire V7s.) Of couse I think it is too small. One solution might be let more than 6 people to a site if they are willing to share.
My little rant is the about the morning that I had a ranger wake me and my group up at some ungodly hour asking me for my tag or whatever. We didn't want to bother to set up a tent for the evening so I stuck the tag on the corner of our tarp. I set it out there as plain as could see but, nope. Couldn't see it. I can't imagine that it was link who did it. He seems like to sharp of a guy to not be able to open his eyes. Enough complaining from me. I love camp four even if just for the idea of it, (the climbers camp.)
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briand
Trad climber
bay area
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Oct 24, 2005 - 03:38am PT
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Pombo Fattrad? He probably thinks logging in Yosemite would be a good use of resources.
Hopefully the "new" Camp 4 will help with most of the problems. I'm looking foreward to the changes. Camp 4 currently seems old and tired. And I'm tired of trying to find a place to stay everytime I go there. Climbers or not, there are just too many people. But you could say that in regards to many issues.
The thrill is still there for me though.
brian
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Sep 25, 2017 - 11:12pm PT
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Bump for this interesting, ans seemingly exhausted thread. But... where is that new bathroom?
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 26, 2017 - 12:36am PT
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I just picked up on this thread tonight and got all rapt up in it - until I realized it's fccking 12 years old! She-it, it's been almost 50 years since I used the facilities(?) at Camp 4.
I walked through Camp 4 last year during the face lift and found it not in anyway a pig sty. It had been probably 40 years since I had actually been in Camp 4. McLean and I stopped randomly and had a very interesting conversation with a young German climber. Yes, the place was full, but it was clean and it will never be the same as it was in the 60s. But Camp 4 will always remain what it was to me back then - a place that brings back warm and wonderful memories. Despite its lack of organization and superior accommodations, it was my home in Yosemite and I loved it!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Sep 26, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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Wow, an old, epic thread. I am of the generation who lived through the big change from free, unlimited off-season camping at C4. I hated the place, but at list BITD you could wander off into the boulders to actually get some sleep. I was never a long-term resident, but I did stay for about four weeks at one stretch, but this, gulp, was back in 1980. It was cool to be amongst so many incredible climbers. When you weren't trying to sleep, the vibe was truly energizing. Alas, the Valley has become so crowded now that I don't think I'll ever go back. When I was going regularly, there were something like 2--3 million visitors a year. I believe that is up to 5 million now. Hell, I understand even my beloved Joshua Tree is up to 3 million! WTF? Loving the great places to death. RIP C4. RIP Yos.
BAd
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 26, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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Location, location, location....the only reason to camp at Camp 4 or climb at Stony Point is their locations.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Sep 26, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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I never thought it was that gross. Definitely going to have the international climber ghetto thing going on but that's to be expected. I spent a good chunk of time there for a few years in a row enjoyed every bit of it mostly. I have some very fond memories of that tags for packs of cigarettes and just throwing out our bags in the middle of the night. Definitely something I'll never forget. I stayed there recently for a night and was lucky to have a hook up from the climbing Ranger Bud on on a site as we got ready for a half dome trip. Definitely went native to move in the woods afterwards. I do remember Rangers rolling through though, four abreast holding the shotgun like over there to scare bears in the middle of the day. Gestapo-ish
Other than that, very fond memories.
Edited to remove a a personal slant.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 26, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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Will somebody splain to me why climbers couldn't be allowed to spend a month in Camp 4? It isn't like the general pubic is suddenly going to rush in take advantage of it. Oh, wait, I forgot that the Park Service hates climbers.
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Sep 26, 2017 - 09:39am PT
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Its seems cleaner than in the 90's. The whole climbing scene seems less druggy and more healthy around C4.
For me I always love running into old friends and meeting worldly climbers, BUT after fall 2016 I will be finding my accommodations else where.
Sitting, not sleeping, in line (which started at 8pm the night before!), we were yelled at by the same ranger 3 different times! He was threatening to ticket, tow, and kick everyone out of the park. I never sleep or roll out pads in line, just sit and read, trying to do the right thing by legally getting a site. 99% of the rangers I have run into are fine, but this guy really felt he had something to prove. It really left me feeling that it is not worth the hassle.
In the end, I will start the same day I arrive to avoid C4.
At least they didn't tear it out and put in employee housing.
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