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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:34pm PT
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For all other's addressing me right now, sorry. I'm outta here. It's 10:30 my time, and I've been punching buttons for way too long. I'm gonna shut up and climb for a while. And yes Forrest, I'm gonna go make a difference at my job, which I might add you know nothing about. Please try not to make assumptions about the difference I make just because you have more respect for Link than my opinion. That's just plain off.
Enjoy the rest of your rant filled day :)
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:42pm PT
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Just to clarify, my reference to making a difference was WRT the camp 4 / yosemite access issues. Maybe that's what you meant, too, in which case, I apologize.
Hopefully everyone here lives their life so as to effect as much of a positive change in the world around them as possible.
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Hootervillian
climber
Bolivia, NV
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:47pm PT
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Lois,
Much of your commentary was relevant to this thread, and I witnessed myself the improvments of an 'alcohol ban' on many trailheads and campgrounds.
The excerpts I chose to highlight from this thread, and many others IMO, reflect a rather negative and generalized overature towards a certain demographic, a demographic which includes a great many of these individuals-"folks" giving their lives for what you believe.
Of course I noticed you left out reference to these overatures in your response, a good choice. Keep up the good work.
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:57pm PT
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"Although I think it's the difference between visiting the park as an aspect of reverence ... and visiting the valley as a place to get off, recreate, and party..."
Besides this, I also think there is some accountability involved. In the spring, early summer the rangers and park workers KNOW that Camp 4 is inhabited by a bunch of climbers. So I think climbers feel some accountibility to keep the place neat.
Fast foward into August and Camp 4 is a sty (extrapolating from what I saw in June), inhabitied by a bunch of grumpy sweaty obese people yelling at each other, and pacing themselves up the Vernal Falls trail to avoid their 3rd heart attack. These people know they will not see the Park till their next "vacation" 12 months from now. So they leave their sh#t everywhere (this attitude is fostered by the "Amusement Park" spin the NPS and DNC puts on the valley experience). No accountibility. These people know the next beer they buy will be in San Fransico, or Dallas, or Atlanta, no need for the deposit! Leave it where it lies.
This is truly speculation, but perhaps the park employees do not realize that the majority of the climbers have moved out for the summer, they only see the condition of Camp 4 "the climber's camp" and shake their heads in disgust.
NICK
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:07pm PT
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You know, there is one way Link could make a difference in C4. He could clean the damn bathrooms!
Andy
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:18pm PT
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Billgoat said: " I checked, NPS fee dollars don't go to the NPS!"
this is not true. with the authorization of the fee demonstration program back in '96, fee parks were enabled to keep a percentage of what they take at the gate and spend it on the projects of their choice within the park -- the emphasis has always been on the maintenance backlog, but that is changing -- for example, right now the grand canyon is accruing all their fee dollars in order to implement a park shuttle/transportation system.
over the years the formulas have changed, and this is a huge simplification of the overall program which has many different componenets and cost-recovery aspects, but basically, as of today fee parks (such as yosemite), get to keep approximately 80% of their take at the entrance booth. the other 20% goes to WASO where it is distributed among the parks that do not charge entrance fees. i'm not sure what the story is with campground fees in the valley, but unless the campgrounds are run by a concessionaire then yosemite would be keeping those funds, also.
letters to the superintendent, with copies cc:d to your congressional delegation, have a truly enormous impact if the numbers are sufficient. if the superintendent of yosemite were to recieve 400 complaint letters over the next two months regarding the abysmal conditions of the bathrooms in C4, and the general state of disrepair of C4's facilities, the chances are pretty good that C4 janitorial services might get ramped up, and/or some facility improvements would be made.
as for staying in C4...i spent a lot of time there between 1975 and 1989. after moving from yosemite in '89, i did not return to yosemite until '96. we stayed in the valley for about four hours, and it was an overwhelming experience. we hightailed it out of there and stayed with freinds in el portal. i know that if i were to go back there i'd be acclimated to the crowds in no time, but at first whiff the change was stunning. the place seemed so noisy, so crowded, so....different. i haven't been back since that four hour glimpse in '96.
you really can't go home again, and i'd like to remember Camp 4 the way it was when i was a kid. but god, i miss climbing there.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
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"you really can't go home again...."
Not true, we keep trying to go to the wrong "Home". The "True" home is always open and there to goto.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:39pm PT
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i know what you're saying werner, but after being away for so long, i can't seem to find the door, but i know it's out there somewhere. i'll be back someday, in the late off-season, indian summer, down at the cookie, and it'll all come rushing back to me in one big blissful wave of memories so thick i'll have to bat them away from my eyes.
and i'd really like to run a few laps on bachar cracker....
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Scott_Nelson
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 20, 2005 - 03:15pm PT
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Here's what I would like to see:
1) no cars in the valley during peak season (May - Oct)
2) 14 consecutive day camping limit in C4 (no cumulative limit)
3) Remodel the bathrooms.
The worst thing about Yosemite is the Ranger Gestapo -- I hate having to feel like a criminal in C4, just because I want to say longer than 7 days. On this issue in particular I would like to see change, how can I help?
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 03:21pm PT
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Camp 4 - ahhh sweet memories in the 60's was set aside for campers with pets... my dad decided he had four of them and we camped by the huge boulder with no picnic table nor room to set our tent, but we were glad for a spot to throw out the sleeping bags and be in the Valley.
Camp 4 campers have created their own sty.... NEWSFLASH!! Your mother isn't camping with youall.... you need to clean up after youself/SELVES and not expect NPS employees or rangers to do so. What's wrong with cleaning up after yourself instead of expecting someone else to do it???? Screw the $8 fee or the $20 fee.... it is a matter of principle !!! LEAVE THIS PLACE AND ANY OTHER PLACE YOU TREAD IN BETTER CONDITION THAN WHAT YOU FOUND IT.... and thereby cutting out the need for all this moaning and groaning... keep the booze; keep abusing the number of staying days; keep Camp 4 for the climbing enthusianst;keep puking and peeing; but for crying out loud, just clean up after youself!! The future of Camp 4 should not be left in jeopardy for the likes of gripping about a fifthy john/can/crapper when there are bigger issues on the table.
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Dog
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 03:25pm PT
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In my opinion,Link is a great representative of us climbers. He has the ability to run with us and yet face the machine. Can he get anything done? Yes, he can and has. Its politics and playing the game that gets things done here, not pissing people off. He can play that game. Check out this guys ability to diffuse all the bullshit threads that are directed here. I have watched and studied.I can only imagine how difficult it must be to get anything done in this Valley Government
Anybody else ever stepped up to the plate and dealt with all the problems we speak of here? I dont recall any figure in the past that stands out.
Camp 4 still sucks, I agree with that.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Oct 20, 2005 - 04:19pm PT
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"I like that link. I could use a break from investment management, cancel the Fed Reserve job, I'm applying for Yosemite Superintendent." Fattrad
Hey Fattrad, I've got a Janitor opening at my school that I think would be perfect. Give me a call!
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Oct 20, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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Fattrad,
Yes, Yes, full public employee benefits. However, it requires a person who has the proper mix of humility and common sense. Sorry !
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:07pm PT
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"Diplomacy is one of the most deceiving forms of propaganda,"
G.E.T.S.,
Good
Enough
To
Steal
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:11pm PT
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"1) no cars in the valley during peak season (May - Oct)"
Now there's an idea!!
You'd still be able to drive to the spots the shuttle doesn't service during the climbing season, and limit overall traffic (when it's too hot to climb in the valley). Genius. Although I'd stick to peak season being Mem day to Labor day June-early Sept.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:38pm PT
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Last time I stayed in the Pines the patrons didn't clean their own latrines there, either.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
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LEB - I am the mother of a climber son... who happens to clean up after himself. BUT I've spent many years hanging with him in JT at Todd's house. (Until a couple of years ago when he remarried, Todd's house, located at the very edge of JT, was an open mecca for climbers of all abilities, ages etc.) When the men knew a female was going to be in the house, the communial bathroom suddenly received a miracle cleaning - no he-climber ever owned up to cleaning it for fear of being pegged weak. On on unannounced visit I saw first hand the worst toilet I've ever seen in my life... from then on I let them know a female was going to be on the place. I don't believe they/men need anything but a 'cause' to do what they know is the right thing to do... maybe they just need to be reminded.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 09:26pm PT
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LEB - thank you for the compliment... do believe my son, as well as my daughters, are very special spirits placed on this good earth for many to have to honor of knowing him/them. Re: I was traveling with him going into JT; therefore, he did not have the opportunity to clean before our arrival.
Spanning more decades than I care to own up to, I've seen both the tidy and the filthy... not going to make generalizations, but choose to believe that all males have the ability to clean as well, if not better than a female; they just need to be reminded or see it as a 'cause' to action.
And I choose to ignore the hint of snit in your final sentence... were it for not being a survivor of stage 3 of ovarian cancer, I'd love to have more children.... peace to you and stay well.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 09:55pm PT
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LEB - accept my sincere apology for misintreputing... and I do wish I'd had more sons... sons are great friends, companions and it is a awesome privilege to help shape a good man. peace and stay well
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Oct 21, 2005 - 08:50am PT
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i understand that he has no real power in the problem However he is a very infulental person and not having direct power in the problem may help in a roundabout sort of way.
NSP: ive just had ASw On the phone about cars in yosemite, he thinks there is a problem.
who do you think would listen whgo has the power to change these things mabey ill send them a copy too =OD
the letter thus far reads. please feel free top comment or change thing that i have got wrong or you feel should/could be worded better
Rob
Dear mr S
My name is Robert and I have recently visited California on a climbing holiday From Scotland where 2 of my friends and I climbed in Yosemite National Park. The trip was a big success we climbed many routes above our personal levels and attempted a 3-4day route on El Capitain (The Nose). Yosemite has to be one of the best places I have ever climbed, however our trip was spoilt on numerous different levels by the general running and logistics of the park and it is for these reasons that I write to you now.
The first thing that strikes you when you organise your trip to Yosemite is the method by which the NPS handles campsite booking. All the pre booking sites become avaible for tent camping 5 months before you arrive in the park and you are required to sit in a phone que for hours on end or fight with an internet search engine and attempt to log into the NPS booking site. As a result we did not get an opportunity to camp in one of the prebooked campsites in Yosemite valley as the system was overloaded with other people booking. We had to take a campsite out of the valley floor and commute to the climbing everyday. There is also a non-book or walk in site in the valley floor known as Camp 4 (the climbers campground). The way you get a place in this site is to sleep outside the ranger kiosk from about 2am to ensure to get a good place in the que (but you may not get a site). coming from so far away we were somewhat worried that we were not going to get a place to stay in Yosemite but I am glad to say we were lucky. once you have a site you have to park your car, this is no easy task as the camp 4 car park can only hold vehicles for 25% of the people staying there. If you cannot park in camp 4 you have to move your car to camp curry which is 20mins walk from the camp site. This was not a real problem as the car wasn’t doing anything when we were on the valley floor and I just sat in the car park for 3 weeks.
The leads me to my first major point.
The volume of traffic in Yosemite is gargantuan and it is much faster to walk 5 miles to the climbing from the campsite than it is to drive there. Yosemite is serviced with a excellent fleet of busses but these don’t run on time because of Traffic Jams!! They also only vist a small number of locations on the valley floor and would be much better if the number of locations was spread futher across the valley floor. But the real problem is the volume of traffic. This traffic not only slows down the busses in the park but it causes damage to the valley floor and the road sides are torn up but people parking to looks at the views or take photos of the wildlife. These are all things that they could do from the bus. Worse still when you climb in the park and get 1000-2000ft off the floor of the valley you can see the air poultion collecting in the valley and you can hear the endless drone of cars and horns. Is this the way amerce wishes to treat one of the most wonderful places on earth, I sincerely hope not
However there is, im my eyes, another major problem with the running of the park.
As a vistor to Yosemite I am only allowed to stay in the park for two weeks in any year. I understand that there is very good reasons for this (crowd control) but when you are training for a very physical sport like rock climbing you need a lot more time than 2 weeks to establish yourself in a climbing area. Also an attempt on a big wall like El captain requires a lot of planning, organisation, training and rest time (look at Jack Osborne success on El capitain made possible by training for months). Two weeks was not long enough for climber coming form as far away as Washington, Miami or Scotland. So we as climbers are forced to camp illegally and hide from the park rangers in order to have enough time in the park to train to attempt a wall as stunning as el captain. If we are caught we are jailed, fined and all of our climbing equipment is confiscated and NOT RETURNED! Now my holiday this year cost me around £1000 GBP (~$1800) however my climbing equitemnt is worth in excess of £3000 GBP (~£5400) if I were to be causght not only would I have a federal fine to pay but I would have lost £3000+ and as I am a student that would be no minor loss.
Visitors camping without cars are not doing as much damage to the park as Mobile Homes are. We also do not take up as much space, as a two person tent is a lot smaller than a SUV. I understand that everyone has an equal right to appreciate the park so why not make everyone camp if they want to be in the park (or they can use the other lodgings in Yosemite like huts or the hotel if they cannot camp) make the bus service better and construct a major secure car park outside the National Park and bus people in to the Valley floor hence eliminating the majority of the traffic
You ask why we risk so much, the answer is simple. Because the climbing in Yosemite is some of the best in the world and it is worth it
After my degree I intend to move to Berkley and pursue a PhD in Structural Geology and Major fault Systems (Earthquakes). I hope to be climbing far more often in the wonderful place only wish that I were allowed to stay in the park a bit longer and that there were No cars in the Valley Floor. The amount of damage they are causing is crazy and it would seem a much more logical idea to only allow them in the Valley Floor when you are setting up your camp site after that you must park it outside Yosemite.
I understand that this is a hard topic as the aims of Yosemite are to protect the wild and allow people to vist it. However the way the park is being treated today is permanently damaging it and at this rate the next generation will not see it in the same light.
I would also like to mention the Efforts of YOSAR (Yosemite Search and Rescue Team). These guys are saving lives of people who are unlucky and they never receive enough credit
Can I be so bold as to suggest that you vist Yosemite (on the quiet) between June and September next year on a Saturday because it is one of the most spectacular places to go for a trip. Maybe try Rock Climbing, I can say its one of the best things I do
Mabey in the futer the Park will be run differently which will better for both the park and the visitor I can only hope that that futer is sooner that it looks to be.
Your concerned
Robert
Climber From Scotland
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