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Peter
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 19, 2005 - 05:44pm PT
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After years of staying in Camp 4 I officially give up. It's always been a squalid joke of a place to camp but at least you weren't hassled, cited and ticketed as though you were trying to squat on the White House lawn.
Why exactly are the bathrooms so foul? Oh, it's over use, guess I'll wait until I get home to have a crap. Are the 200 campers staying at camp 4 really expected to use one fouled up sink to wash their dishes? Right.
Compare Camp 4 to the backpackers camp - which you're only supposed to use if you have a wilderness permit. Clean, serene, pretty. Not for climbers. Compare the impact of 6 climbers staying in Camp 4 against one monster RV, replete with satellite TV, in the Pines campgrounds. F*#k - make the RV'ers use the Camp 4 bathroom instead of sucking out their toilets for free, see how many of them stick around.
The Park Service has made it clear they they don't want climbers around. The bulletin board extolling the virtues of a "soon to be improved" camp 4 has disappeared. If you drive up from the Bay Area late a night intending to get a "site" you WILL receive a $95 ticket, even though you're just waiting for the registration booth to open.
Has anyone on the planet ever contemplated following the offically recommended practise of driving to Curry Village to park, taking a shuttle bus, which doesn't run at night, back to Camp 4 to register, which takes hours because you need photo ID etc. etc., then taking the bus back to the other end of the park to get your car? Why do you need photo ID anyway? Is there anywhere else where you need photo ID to book a $5 walk in campsite? If the Park Service is worried about terrorists in Camp 4 here's a newsflash - there's nothing left to destroy.
What would it take take to increase the size of the campsite and parking lot to accomodate the number of climbers normally visiting the valley? Would it cost as much as the impressive new stone guardrails running the length of 140 along the lower Merced?
And Werner, seeing as how the parking lot can't possibly accomodate even the climbers legally camping, why is 25% of the parking permanently dedicated to SAR staff personal vehicles, most of which have clearly not moved all summer? Hell, there's SAR vehicles there that look like they haven't moved in a decade - ticket them.
Link, you were doing a good job trying to be a liason but the truth is the Park Service wants less climbers visiting, not more, and they're going to make life as unpleasant as possible. In a decade of climbing at Tuolumne, Joshua Tree and Lake Tahoe I've never once had any tickets, hassles or problems but it's pretty much a guarantee in the Valley.
Your National Parks - Not For You.
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e$
Mountain climber
jackson, wy
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Oct 19, 2005 - 06:13pm PT
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I feel your pain, Peter... Camp 4 ain't what it used to be -- but I still do think it is a good thing. I have some confidence that people (particularly Link -- thanks!) are working to improve access for climbers. Perhaps, as a regular visitor/user, there is a way for you to contribute something to the cause (time/contacts/a few $)?
We're lucky that it even exists at all -- after the scare a few years back.
You asked: "Why do you need photo ID anyway? Is there anywhere else where you need photo ID to book a $5 walk in campsite?"
This has to do with the 2-week limit for staying in the Valley. Since Camp 4 allows individuals to reserve a spot, they need IDs for everyone. Group sites do require an ID, but only for the individual reserving a site.
Is it perfect? No. Fair? Probably not... but it's an attempt at doing the right thing.
Respectfully,
-eric
Note: I didn't stay at Camp 4 all summer because I got tired of the hassle, but I did find plenty of other great and legal places to stay that are not so far away (but not in the Valley).
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Peter
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2005 - 06:52pm PT
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eric
If Camp 4 was a pleasant place to camp I would happily pay $20 a night.
I've met Link several times and I like the guy, but the hassles at Camp 4 are worse than ever.
If you have a group of 6 friends they can each reserve a site at any other campground in Yosemite for two weeks (maybe I'm wrong and one week is the maximum) and only the person making the reservation each time will need ID. Then everyone can stay in the valley for at least 12 weeks a year (worse case 6 weeks) and only need Photo ID once - maybe. I've never had to show my ID at the Pines campgrounds and this is assuming the rangers are keeping some kind of database, which I doubt.
But Camp 4 - everyone needs ID. Climbers Without Official Papers Will Be Deported. I recommend a fake driver's license from Slovakia. Good luck training for your free ascent of the Nose - you have 7 days.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 19, 2005 - 07:12pm PT
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I could not agree more. It blows. The only time that C4 is nice, is around Dec - Feb. when you've got the place to yourself and a nice 2 foot ice base keeping you out of the muck. they Don't check ID's then.
the solution is this, drive in - park in front of El Cap - hump it to the base and start climbing. Life on the wall is much better than life on the ground in yosemite.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Oct 19, 2005 - 07:20pm PT
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Keep in mind that it is climbers that screwed it up and made it into a pig sty.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 19, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
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Whiners. Do you got to Costco and expect a waiter at the food court?
"Camp 4 ain't what it used to be."
I don't think I was in camp 4 prior to ~1970, so my perspective is limited, but you're right, there's always something different. Just get with the current paradigm and take it from there. - I liked it better in the two bathrooms days, but WTF.
"But Camp 4 - everyone needs ID." Not Exactly, they ask for one. I spent my alloted time there last summer without one-didn't have it with me, still registered under my own name, this is A-0, save your breath for the climbing.
Yeah, camp 4 has it's drawbacks, but if you want to go climbing, there are bigger obstacles.
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toyon
climber
davis, ca
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Oct 19, 2005 - 08:37pm PT
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love it or hate it, camp 4 is the definition of squalor. I've taken to wondering out loud how great it might be if the AAC was given stewardship authority over the area, and transformed it into a climbers camp along the lines of GTCR. Think about it: hostel-style bunks, showers, an AAC library, and a *communal* eating area where you could rub shoulders with the best and worst of us.
And all for only $8/night!
(uh-oh, did i mention a price increase? here comes the backlash...)
-st
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Oct 19, 2005 - 09:11pm PT
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I love the AAC idea, except that Camp 4 isn't in any official way a climbers campground, so the park isn't going to hand it over to a group that will exclude the Average Joe. Besides, Average Joe has more money and lawyers than the climbers do, so they'd just fight it and probably win.
The fact that the place is a sty is really what keeps it a climbers campground. Only climbers would put up with that kind of crap. A family of 4 from Iowa would just pack up the family truckster and drive out to the Days Inn in Mariposa as soon as they saw the bathroom.
And as far as the NPS goes, they've got to try to serve everyone, which, in a place like the Valley that sees so many visitors, is not easy. But wait! It gets better! Think the NPS was bad before? Its about to get worse when all the people who are in it for the right reasons have to quit because they can't get promoted:
http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=598
I'll post this on another thread to avoid a hijack, if you want to respond, do it there. This thread is for camp 4 ranting only.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2005 - 09:19pm PT
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"I was told that it was reserved for emergency use only"
Maybe it's the site they reserve for those mountain rescue groups from the bay area? Hell, I don't know. I never go over there.
Then again WTF do I really know anyways? ..... not much!
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Oct 19, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
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I love Camp 4.
The squaulor. The memories. The history. The dirt. The bulletin board. The view. The rangers. The SAR site. The slackline. The Falls trail. The boulders. The fake names.
I try at all costs to avoid it. But I love it.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Oct 19, 2005 - 09:31pm PT
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My only observation is that the whole valley camping scene has become a huge hassle. C4 has, IMO, always been crowded and dirty. Now with the upper and lower river campsites gone after the 1997 floods, the remaining camp sites [collectively, 'the Pines'] are overcrowded and overused.
We stayed in Crane Flat this summer for two weeks. I never stayed there before. The weekdays were nice and quiet. And we had relatively quick access to the meadows. The weekends were filled with assorted shitheads that partied for much of the night and puked all over the bathrooms. Fortunately, there were a pile of porta-johns set up and we put a padlock on one of them and made it our own.
I may stay in Crane Flat for more of my Yos visits. It was nicer overall than staying in the valley. The only caveat was picking a level site. Many of the sites were tilted significantly. YMMV.
Another alternative, if you can get a backcountry permit and stay in the backpacker's camp [with the nice bathrooms and quiet surroundings], you can access the column very quickly. Not a bad alternative to C4. Tent camping is tent camping. Just leave your car in Curry Village and hump your stuff through North Pines.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2005 - 09:43pm PT
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Yes I agree Camp 4 is a hell hole. Even a deaf idiot like me had to get up in the middle of the night and hike up into the boulders at times to get some sleep because the noise was so bad.
But, there are rewards that transcend that ugly sh-it hole, joke for a campground that we see with our diluted naked eyes.
Have you seen and experienced those rewards?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 19, 2005 - 10:08pm PT
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" Keep in mind that it is climbers that screwed it up and made it into a pig sty."
This is pure, unfiltered BS. Although people cook, eat, party, and sleep there, that does not make a pig-sty. The lack of cleaning makes it so. Paying campers should not be required to clean the toilets.
For the money that a few camp sites in C4 generates each day, the PS should hire somebody to help take care of (clean) the camp. I think it's a black-eye to the park that they cannot take care of the place (isn't it a world heritage site or some such?)
I miss the days when the COTU used to be over in the parking lot that is now filled with trailors.
:- k
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Peter
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2005 - 10:20pm PT
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"There are rewards that transcend that ugly sh-it hole, joke for a campground that we see with our diluted naked eyes. Have you seen and experienced those rewards? "
Well, yeah - the valley is an incredibly beautiful place with unparalleled (sp?) climbing.
But there's no particular reason why camping there has to be so painful.
Next time you stay in a valley campground make sure to ask the ranger in the kiosk to clean the bathrooms if they don't meet your standards.
So who is (not) using the "emergency" campgrounds in North Pines? Someone's gotta know....
Werner - can you make more room in Camp 4 by moving the SAR vehicles?
Whre's the suggestion box?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 19, 2005 - 10:23pm PT
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Make room? I have no authority to do anything.
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Peter
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2005 - 10:30pm PT
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Who does?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 19, 2005 - 10:32pm PT
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"Next time you stay in a valley campground make sure to ask the ranger in the kiosk to clean the bathrooms if they don't meet your standards."
Although this sounds a bit tounge-in-cheek, I think the idea is not far off the mark. Of course a Ranger is not going to clean the bathrooms, it certainly isn't in their job description. But I don't think it would be a bad thing to ask the Kiosk attendant about the cleaning schedule, and then tell them why you're asking. If enough folks asked, perhaps they'd get wind of the problem...
:- k
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Dragon with Matches
climber
Bamboo Grove
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Oct 19, 2005 - 11:05pm PT
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I consider it a kind of a game designed to weed out those who don't really want to be there.
If you want to revel in the amazing history of the place, hang in the company of an incredibly international group of super-psyched climbers, and enjoy a bit of a buffer away from the tourist hordes, you've got to put up with some bureaucratic crap. Lots of benefits there, and lots of crap. Kinda like France, but different.
Personally, I find it pretty magical place to be.
As an aside, Link's incredible work in bridging the gap between two very disparate groups warrants him a place in climbing history. Things could be better, it's tempting to say... but things could easily be much, much worse.
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Oct 19, 2005 - 11:22pm PT
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I have not "stayed" in camp 4 in years. Like before 1985. Even then it was the middle of winter. I have found it to be much more peaceful to camp in other location both in and out of the park.
Everybody who stated that C4 did not become a pile on its own, are correct. We made it that way,
I like the idea of asking the Rangers to clean up the bathrooms, even if I am not staying in C4, I am going to ask.
Great post Peter. K-man, jaybro, Blinny and everybody else, you got it right. Like you I don't have the solution, but if you pay the $'s you should get the service.
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:09am PT
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What sucks about Camp 4 are the rangers and the moronic
regulations. It is very difficult to conform to all the
stupid rules, so I just gave up and took my chances. I
won't share all my strategies for breaking the laws and
getting away with it, but I will say that a good form
of protest is to pitch your portaledge ten feet above
ground on a wall and tell the rangers to eat sh#t.
If I had my way, I'd close the Ahwahnee hotel, eliminate
about 90% of the NPS presence in the valley, and return
the place to some semblance of wilderness. As a foreigner
from India with no strong prior biases, I was struck by
the unfriendly demeanour of the rangers - who seem to
arrogate to themselves the power of God almighty. I feel
that the NPS leadership is ultimately to blame. Yosemite
is a cash cow for certain people, and these people have
no concern for the values of your pioneer naturalist, John
Muir. I don't know whether or not the NPS makes a lot of
money from Yosemite, but the NPS is really messing up one
of the premier climbing destinations on this planet.
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Dog
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:15am PT
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Keeping with Link, If you have a gripe, have a solution.
I dont so I will keep it short.
Camp 4 sucks.
Yup. In my opinion it does. Last month will be the last time I ever camp there. Filthy says alot for my dislike there not to mention that woman gatekeeper, Pinky. Horrible attitude she had and it just kinda went downhill from there.
Whatever though. There are certainly other places to camp in the valley and outside the park if we have to.
But we should'nt have to!
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:29am PT
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"Camp 4 Sucks"
Yeah it does. If you want to soak in the international climber-dude ambiance, and enjoy being hassled by rangers and bears while drunken fools howl and play guitar till 2:00 AM, I guess it's cool. If you want to climb, there are better options. In 15 years of climbing in the valley, I've maybe spent a week there. I doubt I'll ever camp there again.
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Gripper
Mountain climber
Nor. Calif.
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:53am PT
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akclimber is right on!
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:58am PT
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How exactly would you all make it better? That's my question.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:06am PT
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"How exactly would you all make it better? That's my question."
Silk purse, sow's ear. Kill all guitarists? Not feasible.
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toyon
climber
davis, ca
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:04am PT
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okay, i'll say it again: work within the system to hand over stewardship authority to the AAC. Have them re-vamp the place, ala Grand Teton Climber's Ranch. GTCR is open for all ($8/night for AAC members, $10/night all others). AAC has the political clout and the cultural currency to make it happen, Course, a real stand up job might also require C4 to be fully closed for lengthy intervals, which would cause a sh-itstorm among a vocal minority. But just imagine....
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/community/ranches-huts-teton.asp
-st
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:40am PT
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How exactly would you make it all better?
Look, I hate to repeat myself, but since all you Link loving delusional freaks seem to fundamentally misunderstand what's going on here...well, here goes. LINK IS A TOOL of the NPS. You like him because he is nice. I agree. He is a very likable guy. Problem is, he is paid by the NPS to be liked by the climbers so that the NPS can quietly go behind everybody's back and make the C4 system more and more like a cage to keep the animals (I mean climbers) at bay. Got it?
The solution is simple. Link, you need to fire yourself. Not quit. Fire. The NPS won't fire you, but the community of self-respecting climbers happily will. We'll take you back, man, and make you one of us. We'll take over camp four, and refuse to leave until the specter of bureaucracy surrounding C4 is abolished once and for all. I know this sounds entirely manifesto-ish, but I'm being serious. Take over camp four monkey style!!! Block the entrance to the parking lot with a few dozen broken down cars. Remove the wheels, lock up the axles with locktite, make them impossible to tow, and have a good ole' fashion sit-in. As a community, we can come up with a list of demands and refuse to leave until they are met. Remember first and foremost: federal lands belong to YOU the tax paying citizen of the USA. If they are mismanaged, then it is your right and responsibility to stand up against those involved in their mismanagement. Do not be fooled by those with a friendly smile and attitude. Diplomacy is one of the most deceiving forms of propaganda, and the power of rhetoric has a long history of destroying some the worlds biggest superpowers (take the Greek Empire for example). When a war of words doesn't work, make yourself heard through action.
And you know what really pisses me off: those signs that say "your fee dollars at work." Not because I haven't spotted a single one in C4. But because, the last time I checked, NPS fee dollars don't go to the NPS! They go to the federal budget, and the feds on the hill allocate how much money the NPS gets each year to propagandize us into believing that our fee dollars actually do something other than helping to fight a war to get us more oil to drive our cars to a place the feds don't want us to stay. Ummm.... what we've got here is more than a failure to communicate. We've got an all out f-u-c-king hypocrisy. Literally f-u-c-king! Who? US, up our silent f-u-c-ked up asses.
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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Oct 20, 2005 - 04:11am PT
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i LOVE camp 4 and have travelled by bus from vancouver and from flown from ediburgh to climb there. IS the id policy only enforced during the peak summer months? if so it shouldn't effect camp 4 when it really is a climbers campground.
its about the only place in the us where you can climb without a car!
I was there in the spring before they brouught in the id thing but just lived out a bearbox and left my bags under a tree, i can think of nowhere else with such a fun supportive atmosphere the shared sites means a sense of community abscent from the standard park service campgrounds.
I didn't like the atmosphere at the AC place though it was good value.
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Pierre
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:33am PT
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I used to love Camp 4 - I don't anymore...
Why?
The attitude from the Rangers, especially the ones at the Kiosk, they welcome people with some VERY negative energy - sad...
Here is a thought;
The seven day limit is Not a very good solution to cut down visitors to the valley, I say - close the roads to Yosemite!
You should not be able to go further than El Portal by car - let people hike or bike in!
No Shuttle buses, No Taxis, No Cars, No Trains!
Instead of 4 millon visitors a year - there would maybe be 100,000 people coming, and it would be people who cares about the valley who would come. People like hikers and climbers and photografers and such... Not people who drive in and out and don't even remember seeing El Cap (I have met too many of those visitors).
Let old folks and handicapped people visit by using elctrical golf carts.
I have spent about 24 months total over the years in C4, the best friends I have - is the one's I've met there, the state and future for C4 doesn't look very good, I am deeply sad for that...
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Oct 20, 2005 - 08:02am PT
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Not to be a smartass or anything, but LEB may be onto something here. Next time I roll into C4, I'm goin' in my 54' motorhome and marching up to the kiosk to tell the lady: "It's cool, there's no booze in there. So, where do I park?" She may actually crack a smile at that one.
Sorry LEB, couldn't resist.
-Bob
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Oct 20, 2005 - 08:18am PT
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Toyon,
Your suggestion has merit. The model has worked before, and yes running a campground or a national park is a industry. There needs to be pros managing the job.
I won't stay there, but if anyone camps there and pays for it, you should demand results.
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Oct 20, 2005 - 09:07am PT
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LEB,
give up booze, why thats...thats....thats....going to lead to me getting up with the sun, climbing more, smelling better, and yes not trashing everything or pissing off my fellow campers. Like you I enjoy my beer, but moderation is alway a good thing.
Brian
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:08am PT
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hey all,
i am writing a letter to Aronld (the govinator) after my little trip to Yose this season because i was so unbeilivably pissed of with the park that i thought that i should try and do somthing about it. i can put it up on here for you guys to read if you like but i dont have it on me today
the NPS wont listen so mabey he will. esp since he should understand that training for a hard sport requires more time than 2 weeks max stay.
i also mention the voulme of traffic and the prices for food
its not done yet but it soon will be
complaining in true british stlye
Rob
(ohh and also your park is too hot for my delicate UK skin can you cool it down for me too =OD)
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Dog
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:26am PT
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Hey Billy Goat,
I understand your point about our involvement with Link, the Tool. True, he is employed by NPS and whether he be a full time "ear," "employee or tool," he still has the in with the NPS much furthur along than a great many of us.
I am not a big supporter of the Rangering system in the park. I have had my problems with them and dislike the way they treat people in general also. What impressed me most about Link is his ability to listen and approach a problem with an attitude of interest. Not the attitude , I dont make the laws, I just enforce em sons a bitches.
Lastly, I will take and respect the fact with Link that he is an educated individual, making meager pay for doing something that he really does enjoy. Take my word for it, this guy could "fire" himself and pick up a job anywhere.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:34am PT
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LEB! You are suffering from the same disease as Link: HICS aka Head In the Clouds Syndrome. Are you totally out of your mind? Do you really think banning alcohol is going to increase park spending on C4? Do you really think it will increase the size of an overcrowded campground? Oh, and do you really think climbers are going to respect such a ridiculous rule? Sure, abuse of any substance or system make for unruliness, but don't be absurd. As a climber's campground, potential visitors know exactly what kind of scene they're walking in on. If you can't get enough quiet, go sleep in the boulders (or, in your case, your gas guzzling RV).
And might I point out that your ownership of such a vehicle should alert us to a level of social irresponsibility on your part that should call into question your mindset as a whole. Frankly, I don't think any environment-loving climber could take your opinion very seriously. I would love to know how you can go a day without a drink while you chug around the country burning millions of gallons of cancer causing, earth destroying black gold.
The level of apathetic hedonism that your actions demonstrate is despicable. Please be advised: think about someone other than yourself if you have any hope of this planet being livable for your children and your children's children.
As to the thoughts about banning private automobiles from the valley: let me say outright what a brilliant idea this is. From what I've heard, it seems to work very well in Zion. Why the NPS in Yosemite hasn't been able to actualize such a plan is totally beyond me. They've been talking about it since before I can remember. I'm pretty sure they won't do it because they're money hungry. They fear they'll loose contracts with curry company (the only organization who actually makes $ off of you), which might lead to a major budget setback. Meaning, if the feds saw the lack of income in Yosemite they would cut back on spending for the park.
Wanna do something about it? Give as little to the curry company as possible. Don't ever buy anything in the valley unless absolutely necessary. Considering the hypocrisy of leasing our land to a private company to make money off of us, you might have a good argument for stealing. After all, corporate monopoly and taxation without representation (i.e. price gouging) are considered criminal (and to some degree) unconstitutional acts. As Gandhi said: an unjust law must be broken.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:37am PT
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Haggis--hold the presses! You're writting to the wrong political power. The govinator is a state employee, and the park is part of our federal system!
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Peter
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2005 - 10:39am PT
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"I hate to say it but I think a lot of this whole NPS stuff boils down to the bucks. "
YES!
The current administration clearly believes that National Parks should generate their own revenue. That's not about to change.
Like I said, I'd be happy to pay $20 to stay at C4 if it was cleaned up and some new sites/parking/bathroom/kitchen facilities added. And how about being able to register without having to stand in line for an hour at 7 in the morning and then be interrogated by the grumpiest ranger I've ever met.
Think about the explosion in popularity of climbing in the last 10 or 20 or 30 years - I know, what a bummer, all these wannabes, you were all real climbers back in the day, but I digress...
Now look at C4 - same size, same gravel parking lot, same bathrooms, same busted off concrete posts. I love Yosemite and have met some great people there as well as some as#@&%es but thats not my point.
C4 is a squalid joke, and it doesn't have to be that way.
P.S. It's not the Curry Company anymore. Curry was sold to Delaware North years ago. Delaware North is a huge east coast (Minnesotta?) company that now controls 100% of the concessions in 90% of US National Parks and sleeps very, very close to the NPS. Delaware North runs the Awanhee, Deegans, Curry Village, Yosemite Lodge, you name it. Delaware North is MUCH worse than Curry.
Edit - a little research (see below) shows that Delaware North at least returns a significant portion (20%) of it's gross revenues back to the Park compared to Curry Company back before 1993 (1.5%).
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:45am PT
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My 2 cents:
-Reopen closed campgrounds! So what if they flood every 25 years...they're campgrounds. We can get more picnic tables.
-Allow multiple concessionaires. Competition is good for the consumer. Ate at the Ahwanee w/ my GF's folks last year and it was really bad, nevermind the price.
-The no-cars thing is great, but the sticking point I think has been the question of where to put the zillion-car lot that such a move would demand.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:46am PT
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Dog,
I don't doubt that Link is really listening. Nor do I doubt that he thinks he can make a difference. Nor do I doubt his education (philosophy degree from Yale, I believe). I believe the term I've used before is brainwashing. Yes, brainwashing. It's the word you use to reflect someone's level of denial about their position in life. The dude thinks he can make a difference, but could anybody really take that seriously. The people who really make the decisions about the way the park runs aren't even in the park. They're wearing suits and ties and are arguing about what kind of investments they can make to further capitalize on us, the god-fearing people. Well, maybe not all of us, but I think this sentiment helps to better illustrate my point about Link's position in the greater scheme of the NPS.
I believe I once read that Link works for the NPS because he believes in their mission. Well, I don't think anyone of us could disagree with the mission statement of the NPS. But mind you, actions speak louder than words!
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:52am PT
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Peter--thanks for the clarification. I guess I've ignored their services for so long, I'm a little out of the loop as to who exactly has the monopoly.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 10:56am PT
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Multiple concessionaires? How about none! Everything should be sold by the people for the people at a not for profit price on the people's land! And how about building a few huge parking lots in El Portal. Claim eminent domain on some of the hotels that exist there now.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Oct 20, 2005 - 11:01am PT
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In the spirit of another current thread:
What if Warren Harding drove and RV and didn't drink? Would C4 standards be what they are today?
-Bob
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Ahwahnee Bartender
Big Wall climber
Fog Town
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Oct 20, 2005 - 11:21am PT
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Not that anybody gives a flying #$@*!$ but in 1976 my girlfriend was the camp4 assigned ranger (non-LEO, just a "general ranger" - which is what the entrance station folks are). Now she is a NPS Superintendent. Co figure: camp4 to Superintendent. The American dream in action.
Theo
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 11:22am PT
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Some of the "anti-tool" rants that are posted here are unintentionally pretty darned funny!
Carry on...
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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Oct 20, 2005 - 11:34am PT
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I've sampled a number of amazing wilderness areas adn NONE other than yosemite is genuinely accessible without a car or SUV,
cars even massively subsidised onee like americas are expensive to hire and cost at least the same again to insure, there fore euros if travelling across without friends or piles of cash have little choice.
Your point on training is to some extent garbage if you want to climb a big route in yosemite you have to climb for a few days first, if you want to climb the nose two weeks from the uk or anywhere else in europe is seriosly unlikely
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Peter
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2005 - 11:50am PT
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So I did a little googling to find out how much money Delaware North makes on it's concessions in Yosemite.
Delaware North pays about 20% of the gross revenue they generate back to the Park Service. In 1993 this revenue was about $100 million per year. I wonder how much it is now.
The following link explains a little of the history:
http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/landuse/Vol141/anss.htm
With the current legislation in place, the national parks have obviously lost out on a viable means of gaining additional funds. When the National Park Service has had the opportunity, it too has reduced the length of contracting terms and has allowed competitive bidding. For instance, Delaware North Companies, Inc. was awarded the concessions contract at Yosemite National Park in 1992 after the previous concessionaire, Yosemite Park and Curry Company, was bought out by a foreign firm and was summarily disqualified from operating its concession business.[235] Due to this disqualification, the park contract was offered on a competitive basis, and Delaware North won the contract.[236]
Delaware North beat out four other companies by pledging to pay 4.5 percent of its gross sales into a capital improvement fund for the park, by buying out Yosemite Park and Curry Company for $60 million, and by agreeing to clean up twenty-seven leaking underground fuel tanks for $12 million.[237] In all, the company paid between seventeen percent and twenty percent of its revenues for fees, rights and park improvements.[238] Additionally, Delaware North has agreed to compete head-to-head with other interested parties at the end of its 15-year contractual term.[239] In contrast, Yosemite Park and Curry Company had provided the government with less than one percent of their $100 million annual gross revenues, had preferential treatment when their contract came up for renewal, and had a long term contract.[240]
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:09pm PT
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Billygoat = a nutcase
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:12pm PT
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"What if Warren Harding drove an RV and didn't drink?"
or he had "Climbed the Nose Free"?
Steve Roper would have to revise his book?
He would not have enjoyed the pleasures of the same ladies?
Bottled water?
I give up.
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Lg
Trad climber
NorCaL
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:15pm PT
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and what the hell about this character named Curry? Did he do some amazing first ascents? Or was he just the 'first' to monopolize the Valley for fame and gain? I'm sure he's long gone, yet we still use his name. People like that just irk me . . .while we're making changes we should change that name. "Soo, what should we name the company?" Mr. Curry, "Well, how 'bout after ME!!" grrrrr, that's my rant . . . good day everyone.
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:20pm PT
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"Keep in mind that it is climbers that screwed it up and made it into a pig sty."
I've been lurking on the forum for a while but crimpergirl has talked me into to joining the me`lee.
In response to ak's comment, my first trip to the valley was in the beggining of June '04 - spent five weeks there (Sorry Link).
Upon arriving I was IMPRESSED with the condition of Camp 4. Sure there were assorted congregations of King Cobra cans, and empty wine bottles-testaments to racous, celebratory evenings- in the morning, but these disappeared by early afternoon($0.05 deposit!). In GENERAL there was an abscence of trash, neat campsites, and clean bathrooms and wash sinks. Certainly the Camp was very clean for the number of users.
A stinky bearbox does not a pigsty make.
In those early days of June I would estimate that 80-90 percent of the Camp's population was climbers. However as the weather warmed and the climbers migrated upward to T-meadows, Camp 4 stayed just as crowded. I started noticing trash in Camp 4. Plastic bags, Non-Cobra cans, half eaten hot dogs strewn throughout camp. Fat kids wandered around, dropping dorito crumbs and bags, while their fat parents watched. What really pissed me off was all of the sudden there was dried piss all over the toilet seats. For 3 weeks I had been able to take a dump comfortably while reading anti-french, and anti-american B-room graffiti, from then on I was forced to poop at the Ahwanhee.
Like I said before the size of the population did not seem to change, but the atitude did. I think climbers know they are going to be there for a while. I tried not to pee on the seat because I knew I was going to have to poop in it for the next 4 weeks. I kept the wash sink clean for the same reasons (Well not the SAME REASON!! You know what I mean!).
It comes down to are you there to experience the park or to use it? Is it a resource or a commodity? In my opinion most climbers treat it like a resouce. I don't know anything though, I'm a dumb noob, and this was certainly not a statistical sample.
NICK
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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Werner, comone man! Enough of yer BS. In case you haven't noticed, most people on this thread are taking it seriously. Let's not revert to gradeschool namecalling. If yer gonna call me something, you might as well be articulate about it. I'm open. In fact, I'm laughing right now. I might be a dreamer, but I'm no nutcase. Oh, and I'm not the only one. So don't try to isolate me, just 'cause we don't agree. That's not what a forum where we can all share our opion equally should be about.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:24pm PT
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Ok man, then get off of Links case as you really don't know what you are talking about in relation to him.
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Dog
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:34pm PT
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Werner,
Bury the Billy Goat!
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:40pm PT
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Camp 4 would be a great, truly wonderful place if it wasn't Camp 4.
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Hootervillian
climber
Bolivia, NV
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:41pm PT
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"When you are a young, healthy and strong male (probably in your 20s, maybe 30s) you do not perceive a great need for security, law or order because you sit on top of the feeding chain in a survival of the fittest modality of society.
"We do not organize our society, however, by the survival of the fittest modality and the vast majority of people within the society (who are not strong males in their 20s) WANT the Links of the world out their doing their jobs. We has a society hire folks like him and pay them to enforce rules and regulations such that everyone can feel safe - not just the "strong men" in our society of which category many climbers fall into."
Support your Troops!
AAhhhh healthy and strong male (probably in your 20s, maybe 30s..... The cause of and solution to all of lifes problems.
another couch, or at least another thread, huh Lois.
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 12:46pm PT
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Billygoat. It appears your interest in this matter is serious, and also that you think Lincoln is a large part of the problem. I say, if he is such a bad person, and you care so much, wouldnt the most effective means involve talking to Lincoln, not bitching about him here?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:04pm PT
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Billgoat said: " I checked, NPS fee dollars don't go to the NPS!"
Yea you checked all right but where, on google?
Yosar was able to purchase a brand new Rescue vehicle for the first time ever with fee collected money. The law has been revised a while back my friend.
I could go on and on about the fallacy of your ranting arguments, but it's a waste of time here for me.
Best wishes for a good nights sleep in Camp 4 :-)
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:16pm PT
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Nick--awesome point dude. I've noticed the same sort of respect issues over the years. Although I think it's the difference between visiting the park as an aspect of reverence (i.e. climbers who visit it as the mecca of their world) and visiting the valley as a place to get off, recreate, and party (i.e. tourons who never leave the creature comforts of the valley floor and the paved or practically paved "trails"). And the worst combination of all (for our sake), is the climber touron. We can all do better to oust those freaks from the valley.
Oh, Dirtbag, not sure if it was my posts you're referring to... but just so you know, my humor is entirely intentional. You should see me trying to hold back the laughter as I type some of this stuff. I'm also being totally true to my opinion... funny how when we're honest with ourselves our off-the-wall ideas can so easily be forgotten among the luny laughing of the masses.
LEB--Funny how I agree with so much of what you say, yet you draw some of the strangest conclusions. I'm sorry, but I don't recall link being hired by a democratic vote. His job is essentially political, and his hiring was essentially an appointment by park officials. Just because they're so-called public servants doesn't mean society hired them. I wouldn't mind having Link in a position of power, but instead his position is between groups involved in a power play. He also happens to be receiving his pay check from one of the groups. That's what I call mediation at it's finest--I'm sure you'll agree :) Oh, and I don't believe Link is exactly protecting any of us from anything. And if he was, I don't want him to. I'll protect myself from my own stupid decisions as a climber. If I happen to recklessly endanger others... well, that's a different story. But your post is sounds frightfully close to being supportive of a big handed style of government that ultimately weakens a God (read: authority) fearing society.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:22pm PT
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billygoat, I think criticizing Link because he "thinks he can make a difference" is a whole lotta crap. As has been stated here, he could easily get some other job, undoubtedly one that paid a hell of a lot better. But instead he's decided to do something that he thinks can make a difference. If you ask me, that's a hell of a lot more than you or I (or most other folks on this board) are doing to improve things.
What have you done lately to make the scene better? Staging your "vandalize a bunch of cars and generate a whole lot more trash" sit in certainly isn't going to improve anything. If anything, it'll just confirm the higher-ups' view of climbers as a problem to be dealt with rather than a community who has some needs.
I didn't get to the valley this summer. I went to tuolumne instead. But I've made it for a few weeks every year in years past, and maybe it got a whole lot worse this year, but when I was there, it was really not so bad. Yeah, the bathrooms could be cleaned a little more often. Not really that big of a deal. I've definitely seen wayyyy worse. I don't use a sink to wash my dishes. Just heat up some water on your camp stove. Saves everyone the mess and aggravation.
Other than that, if some obnoxious bastard is making a lot of noise after the official "quiet hours," I'll get my ass up and let him know that I'm getting up at 4:30 the next morning, so could he please STFU already. I've rarely had a problem convincing folks, since a large number of other people there are in the same boat.
I dunno. Maybe they should raise the price a bit and use the extra dough to improve the parking scene and clean the bathroom more often
But back to the original point, tho. Ragging on Link is a really cheap shot. I'd like to see you make the same sacrifices. Somehow I doubt I will, tho.
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:29pm PT
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Cool Werner, can you explain how fee dollars work exactly? Do parks get full control of their funds? Or only partial?
And I think all you guys really misunderstand my position about Link. I think he's a great guy. I don't mind talking with him at all. And I think he's an extremely small part of the problem (if he even is a part of the problem). The problem I have is with his position. I think it is undervalued by the NPS, and I think his opinion is largely ignored by the folks who can make the real decisions that affect climbers. I don't think talking with link makes much of a difference with climbers position in the valley. I certainly don't think talking with him is going to garner more respect for climbers in the long run. That's my complaint. I don't need to talk to link to feel better about myself, and that's all I see accomplished by talking with link. Now sit me down with the park uppity ups, then I'd be happy (as I'm sure you all would as well).
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billygoat
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:34pm PT
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For all other's addressing me right now, sorry. I'm outta here. It's 10:30 my time, and I've been punching buttons for way too long. I'm gonna shut up and climb for a while. And yes Forrest, I'm gonna go make a difference at my job, which I might add you know nothing about. Please try not to make assumptions about the difference I make just because you have more respect for Link than my opinion. That's just plain off.
Enjoy the rest of your rant filled day :)
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:42pm PT
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Just to clarify, my reference to making a difference was WRT the camp 4 / yosemite access issues. Maybe that's what you meant, too, in which case, I apologize.
Hopefully everyone here lives their life so as to effect as much of a positive change in the world around them as possible.
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Hootervillian
climber
Bolivia, NV
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:47pm PT
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Lois,
Much of your commentary was relevant to this thread, and I witnessed myself the improvments of an 'alcohol ban' on many trailheads and campgrounds.
The excerpts I chose to highlight from this thread, and many others IMO, reflect a rather negative and generalized overature towards a certain demographic, a demographic which includes a great many of these individuals-"folks" giving their lives for what you believe.
Of course I noticed you left out reference to these overatures in your response, a good choice. Keep up the good work.
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Oct 20, 2005 - 01:57pm PT
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"Although I think it's the difference between visiting the park as an aspect of reverence ... and visiting the valley as a place to get off, recreate, and party..."
Besides this, I also think there is some accountability involved. In the spring, early summer the rangers and park workers KNOW that Camp 4 is inhabited by a bunch of climbers. So I think climbers feel some accountibility to keep the place neat.
Fast foward into August and Camp 4 is a sty (extrapolating from what I saw in June), inhabitied by a bunch of grumpy sweaty obese people yelling at each other, and pacing themselves up the Vernal Falls trail to avoid their 3rd heart attack. These people know they will not see the Park till their next "vacation" 12 months from now. So they leave their sh#t everywhere (this attitude is fostered by the "Amusement Park" spin the NPS and DNC puts on the valley experience). No accountibility. These people know the next beer they buy will be in San Fransico, or Dallas, or Atlanta, no need for the deposit! Leave it where it lies.
This is truly speculation, but perhaps the park employees do not realize that the majority of the climbers have moved out for the summer, they only see the condition of Camp 4 "the climber's camp" and shake their heads in disgust.
NICK
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:07pm PT
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You know, there is one way Link could make a difference in C4. He could clean the damn bathrooms!
Andy
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:18pm PT
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Billgoat said: " I checked, NPS fee dollars don't go to the NPS!"
this is not true. with the authorization of the fee demonstration program back in '96, fee parks were enabled to keep a percentage of what they take at the gate and spend it on the projects of their choice within the park -- the emphasis has always been on the maintenance backlog, but that is changing -- for example, right now the grand canyon is accruing all their fee dollars in order to implement a park shuttle/transportation system.
over the years the formulas have changed, and this is a huge simplification of the overall program which has many different componenets and cost-recovery aspects, but basically, as of today fee parks (such as yosemite), get to keep approximately 80% of their take at the entrance booth. the other 20% goes to WASO where it is distributed among the parks that do not charge entrance fees. i'm not sure what the story is with campground fees in the valley, but unless the campgrounds are run by a concessionaire then yosemite would be keeping those funds, also.
letters to the superintendent, with copies cc:d to your congressional delegation, have a truly enormous impact if the numbers are sufficient. if the superintendent of yosemite were to recieve 400 complaint letters over the next two months regarding the abysmal conditions of the bathrooms in C4, and the general state of disrepair of C4's facilities, the chances are pretty good that C4 janitorial services might get ramped up, and/or some facility improvements would be made.
as for staying in C4...i spent a lot of time there between 1975 and 1989. after moving from yosemite in '89, i did not return to yosemite until '96. we stayed in the valley for about four hours, and it was an overwhelming experience. we hightailed it out of there and stayed with freinds in el portal. i know that if i were to go back there i'd be acclimated to the crowds in no time, but at first whiff the change was stunning. the place seemed so noisy, so crowded, so....different. i haven't been back since that four hour glimpse in '96.
you really can't go home again, and i'd like to remember Camp 4 the way it was when i was a kid. but god, i miss climbing there.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
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"you really can't go home again...."
Not true, we keep trying to go to the wrong "Home". The "True" home is always open and there to goto.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oct 20, 2005 - 02:39pm PT
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i know what you're saying werner, but after being away for so long, i can't seem to find the door, but i know it's out there somewhere. i'll be back someday, in the late off-season, indian summer, down at the cookie, and it'll all come rushing back to me in one big blissful wave of memories so thick i'll have to bat them away from my eyes.
and i'd really like to run a few laps on bachar cracker....
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Scott_Nelson
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 20, 2005 - 03:15pm PT
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Here's what I would like to see:
1) no cars in the valley during peak season (May - Oct)
2) 14 consecutive day camping limit in C4 (no cumulative limit)
3) Remodel the bathrooms.
The worst thing about Yosemite is the Ranger Gestapo -- I hate having to feel like a criminal in C4, just because I want to say longer than 7 days. On this issue in particular I would like to see change, how can I help?
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 03:21pm PT
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Camp 4 - ahhh sweet memories in the 60's was set aside for campers with pets... my dad decided he had four of them and we camped by the huge boulder with no picnic table nor room to set our tent, but we were glad for a spot to throw out the sleeping bags and be in the Valley.
Camp 4 campers have created their own sty.... NEWSFLASH!! Your mother isn't camping with youall.... you need to clean up after youself/SELVES and not expect NPS employees or rangers to do so. What's wrong with cleaning up after yourself instead of expecting someone else to do it???? Screw the $8 fee or the $20 fee.... it is a matter of principle !!! LEAVE THIS PLACE AND ANY OTHER PLACE YOU TREAD IN BETTER CONDITION THAN WHAT YOU FOUND IT.... and thereby cutting out the need for all this moaning and groaning... keep the booze; keep abusing the number of staying days; keep Camp 4 for the climbing enthusianst;keep puking and peeing; but for crying out loud, just clean up after youself!! The future of Camp 4 should not be left in jeopardy for the likes of gripping about a fifthy john/can/crapper when there are bigger issues on the table.
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Dog
climber
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Oct 20, 2005 - 03:25pm PT
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In my opinion,Link is a great representative of us climbers. He has the ability to run with us and yet face the machine. Can he get anything done? Yes, he can and has. Its politics and playing the game that gets things done here, not pissing people off. He can play that game. Check out this guys ability to diffuse all the bullshit threads that are directed here. I have watched and studied.I can only imagine how difficult it must be to get anything done in this Valley Government
Anybody else ever stepped up to the plate and dealt with all the problems we speak of here? I dont recall any figure in the past that stands out.
Camp 4 still sucks, I agree with that.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Oct 20, 2005 - 04:19pm PT
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"I like that link. I could use a break from investment management, cancel the Fed Reserve job, I'm applying for Yosemite Superintendent." Fattrad
Hey Fattrad, I've got a Janitor opening at my school that I think would be perfect. Give me a call!
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Oct 20, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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Fattrad,
Yes, Yes, full public employee benefits. However, it requires a person who has the proper mix of humility and common sense. Sorry !
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:07pm PT
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"Diplomacy is one of the most deceiving forms of propaganda,"
G.E.T.S.,
Good
Enough
To
Steal
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:11pm PT
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"1) no cars in the valley during peak season (May - Oct)"
Now there's an idea!!
You'd still be able to drive to the spots the shuttle doesn't service during the climbing season, and limit overall traffic (when it's too hot to climb in the valley). Genius. Although I'd stick to peak season being Mem day to Labor day June-early Sept.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:38pm PT
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Last time I stayed in the Pines the patrons didn't clean their own latrines there, either.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
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LEB - I am the mother of a climber son... who happens to clean up after himself. BUT I've spent many years hanging with him in JT at Todd's house. (Until a couple of years ago when he remarried, Todd's house, located at the very edge of JT, was an open mecca for climbers of all abilities, ages etc.) When the men knew a female was going to be in the house, the communial bathroom suddenly received a miracle cleaning - no he-climber ever owned up to cleaning it for fear of being pegged weak. On on unannounced visit I saw first hand the worst toilet I've ever seen in my life... from then on I let them know a female was going to be on the place. I don't believe they/men need anything but a 'cause' to do what they know is the right thing to do... maybe they just need to be reminded.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 09:26pm PT
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LEB - thank you for the compliment... do believe my son, as well as my daughters, are very special spirits placed on this good earth for many to have to honor of knowing him/them. Re: I was traveling with him going into JT; therefore, he did not have the opportunity to clean before our arrival.
Spanning more decades than I care to own up to, I've seen both the tidy and the filthy... not going to make generalizations, but choose to believe that all males have the ability to clean as well, if not better than a female; they just need to be reminded or see it as a 'cause' to action.
And I choose to ignore the hint of snit in your final sentence... were it for not being a survivor of stage 3 of ovarian cancer, I'd love to have more children.... peace to you and stay well.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2005 - 09:55pm PT
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LEB - accept my sincere apology for misintreputing... and I do wish I'd had more sons... sons are great friends, companions and it is a awesome privilege to help shape a good man. peace and stay well
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Oct 21, 2005 - 08:50am PT
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i understand that he has no real power in the problem However he is a very infulental person and not having direct power in the problem may help in a roundabout sort of way.
NSP: ive just had ASw On the phone about cars in yosemite, he thinks there is a problem.
who do you think would listen whgo has the power to change these things mabey ill send them a copy too =OD
the letter thus far reads. please feel free top comment or change thing that i have got wrong or you feel should/could be worded better
Rob
Dear mr S
My name is Robert and I have recently visited California on a climbing holiday From Scotland where 2 of my friends and I climbed in Yosemite National Park. The trip was a big success we climbed many routes above our personal levels and attempted a 3-4day route on El Capitain (The Nose). Yosemite has to be one of the best places I have ever climbed, however our trip was spoilt on numerous different levels by the general running and logistics of the park and it is for these reasons that I write to you now.
The first thing that strikes you when you organise your trip to Yosemite is the method by which the NPS handles campsite booking. All the pre booking sites become avaible for tent camping 5 months before you arrive in the park and you are required to sit in a phone que for hours on end or fight with an internet search engine and attempt to log into the NPS booking site. As a result we did not get an opportunity to camp in one of the prebooked campsites in Yosemite valley as the system was overloaded with other people booking. We had to take a campsite out of the valley floor and commute to the climbing everyday. There is also a non-book or walk in site in the valley floor known as Camp 4 (the climbers campground). The way you get a place in this site is to sleep outside the ranger kiosk from about 2am to ensure to get a good place in the que (but you may not get a site). coming from so far away we were somewhat worried that we were not going to get a place to stay in Yosemite but I am glad to say we were lucky. once you have a site you have to park your car, this is no easy task as the camp 4 car park can only hold vehicles for 25% of the people staying there. If you cannot park in camp 4 you have to move your car to camp curry which is 20mins walk from the camp site. This was not a real problem as the car wasn’t doing anything when we were on the valley floor and I just sat in the car park for 3 weeks.
The leads me to my first major point.
The volume of traffic in Yosemite is gargantuan and it is much faster to walk 5 miles to the climbing from the campsite than it is to drive there. Yosemite is serviced with a excellent fleet of busses but these don’t run on time because of Traffic Jams!! They also only vist a small number of locations on the valley floor and would be much better if the number of locations was spread futher across the valley floor. But the real problem is the volume of traffic. This traffic not only slows down the busses in the park but it causes damage to the valley floor and the road sides are torn up but people parking to looks at the views or take photos of the wildlife. These are all things that they could do from the bus. Worse still when you climb in the park and get 1000-2000ft off the floor of the valley you can see the air poultion collecting in the valley and you can hear the endless drone of cars and horns. Is this the way amerce wishes to treat one of the most wonderful places on earth, I sincerely hope not
However there is, im my eyes, another major problem with the running of the park.
As a vistor to Yosemite I am only allowed to stay in the park for two weeks in any year. I understand that there is very good reasons for this (crowd control) but when you are training for a very physical sport like rock climbing you need a lot more time than 2 weeks to establish yourself in a climbing area. Also an attempt on a big wall like El captain requires a lot of planning, organisation, training and rest time (look at Jack Osborne success on El capitain made possible by training for months). Two weeks was not long enough for climber coming form as far away as Washington, Miami or Scotland. So we as climbers are forced to camp illegally and hide from the park rangers in order to have enough time in the park to train to attempt a wall as stunning as el captain. If we are caught we are jailed, fined and all of our climbing equipment is confiscated and NOT RETURNED! Now my holiday this year cost me around £1000 GBP (~$1800) however my climbing equitemnt is worth in excess of £3000 GBP (~£5400) if I were to be causght not only would I have a federal fine to pay but I would have lost £3000+ and as I am a student that would be no minor loss.
Visitors camping without cars are not doing as much damage to the park as Mobile Homes are. We also do not take up as much space, as a two person tent is a lot smaller than a SUV. I understand that everyone has an equal right to appreciate the park so why not make everyone camp if they want to be in the park (or they can use the other lodgings in Yosemite like huts or the hotel if they cannot camp) make the bus service better and construct a major secure car park outside the National Park and bus people in to the Valley floor hence eliminating the majority of the traffic
You ask why we risk so much, the answer is simple. Because the climbing in Yosemite is some of the best in the world and it is worth it
After my degree I intend to move to Berkley and pursue a PhD in Structural Geology and Major fault Systems (Earthquakes). I hope to be climbing far more often in the wonderful place only wish that I were allowed to stay in the park a bit longer and that there were No cars in the Valley Floor. The amount of damage they are causing is crazy and it would seem a much more logical idea to only allow them in the Valley Floor when you are setting up your camp site after that you must park it outside Yosemite.
I understand that this is a hard topic as the aims of Yosemite are to protect the wild and allow people to vist it. However the way the park is being treated today is permanently damaging it and at this rate the next generation will not see it in the same light.
I would also like to mention the Efforts of YOSAR (Yosemite Search and Rescue Team). These guys are saving lives of people who are unlucky and they never receive enough credit
Can I be so bold as to suggest that you vist Yosemite (on the quiet) between June and September next year on a Saturday because it is one of the most spectacular places to go for a trip. Maybe try Rock Climbing, I can say its one of the best things I do
Mabey in the futer the Park will be run differently which will better for both the park and the visitor I can only hope that that futer is sooner that it looks to be.
Your concerned
Robert
Climber From Scotland
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Connor
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 21, 2005 - 03:16pm PT
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Haggis, nice letter to 'Mr. S.'
Pretty funny LEB is dishing out advice on how to be succinct, though. Blah, blah blah blah, blah blah. Apparently she is a writing coach, AS WELL as a medical professional! Who knew?
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 22, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
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Whoa!!!
Skimmed through the thread, quite a bit to chew on here… this will probably be a long post, but I'll try to clear up what I can.
As for Camp 4:
I know we all won’t believe it until it happens, but Camp 4 is going to undergo quite the facelift within a few years. It will be expanded to twice the size (toward Swan Slab), another bathroom will be added, the current bathroom will be revamped, the kiosk will be redone, and the parking area will be expanded. These and other changes have been long in the coming and long in the planning. The whole process began well before I started working for “the man” eight years ago, and working out the details has been (and will continue to be) a bumpy ride.
Do I have much power in this process? Am I in charge of what Camp 4 will look like ten years from now? As Billygoat and others have been quick to point out, no, I don’t have much power at all when it comes to large management decisions. As a liaison, however, I do have the ability to give you, the people who actually stay in Camp 4, a strong voice.
This thread is not a new “rant”. I listened to the same complaints when we (the NPS) spent a summer gathering feedback for the planners designing the future of Camp 4, and I read those same complaints again when I catalogued that feedback and personally handed it to the Chief Ranger. Just for the record, using large butcher pages to take comments by the kiosk for a few months, I received an almost equal number of requests for and against adding showers, and an almost equal number of requests for and against paving the parking lot. I also recorded three requests for better lap dance facilities, four complaints about the lack of a beer vending machine, and two comments regarding the lack of croissants (specifically “toasted almond” croissants) at Sunday coffee.
Ok, so, in a few years Camp 4 will be larger, with nicer bathrooms, more sinks, a larger parking lot, and a variety of other “improvements.” Will this make everyone happy? Of course not. Some will say Camp 4 has been ruined, others will rant about the color of the paint on the new bathroom or the brand of drain on the new sinks, and everyone will tell tales from the good old days when Camp 4 was hard core. Am I preemptively discounting these complaints? No way; I’m sure I’ll have a list of my own. The new Camp 4 will have problems, but hopefully it will better serve us all in general.
(Side note: the NPS comment period for the expansion of Camp 4 is long over. Don’t complain, the word went out far and wide two years ago, including on this site, and everyone from the Access Fund to the Japanese Alpine Club submitted comments.)
So, that’s a few years down the road, which doesn’t solve the immediate problems some people have pointed out on this thread: the dirty bathroom, parking problems, etc.
Parking:
Anyone who has come to coffee this summer (or read my posts here) has heard me explain the parking dilemma. As with Camp 4 in general, there’s a long term solution on the way, but in the short term Camp 4 visitors can use “Bus Lot B” across the street to park overnight. Not an ideal solution (you have to move your car by 8:30 so the lot can be used for busses), but it’s been working as a Band-Aid while the park works toward the long term solution.
Bathrooms:
The park’s maintenance staff should have the leaking urinal in the men’s room fixed by later this fall. This will involve closing the bathroom for a while, so the plan is to wait until after the busy season. As for the general cleanliness of the bathrooms… that’s a tough one to fix until we revamp the facility as a whole. The bathrooms get cleaned once a day now, and the real solution would involve some serious construction (tile floors instead of concrete, etc). Same goes for the utility sink where people wash dishes; the solution is more sinks, which won’t happen until the new bathroom. I’m not discounting your comments, just saying “got it, hold tight and a solution is on the way.”
Campsites:
Heads up, the park campground office is planning to put in new fire rings/grills before next season (a few sites already have the new rings), as well as fix the broken bear lockers and replace the numbered post markers.
Time limit:
Man, this subject has seen a few threads of its own. Without rehashing the whole discussion, here’s a few points: Complaining to each other about the one week limit will solve nothing. Providing constructive feedback to park managers is far more likely to make a difference. I’ve talked with supervisors about this subject many times, and there is definitely potential for extending the limit. That being said, such a change will take some creative problem solving on all sides. Breaking the rules as they stand now is not a great route toward an eventual solution.
So what is the best route? Sometimes we in the park know what needs fixing, but more relevant to this conversation - people providing constructive feedback in a productive way can bring about change. Call me idealistic, tell me my head is in the clouds, whatever… I’ve seen it happen time and time again. Ranting about something on supertopo is preaching to choir; writing a letter to the superintendent or speaking with a ranger in person has the potential to actually bring about change. Just for the record, you can write to Yosemite’s superintendent at PO Box 577, Yosemite, CA 95389.
As for letters, Haggis:
If you want to be taken seriously, make sure your facts are correct. The Camp 4 lot holds far more than 25% of the campgrounds visitors. If you are caught camping illegally you are not arrested, and your equipment is not impounded (unless some other charge is involved). Jack Osborne trained for months, but did not stay in Yosemite to do so. YOSAR is not a separate entity from the National Park Service (though your appreciation is much appreciated). These might seem like minor points, but as soon as you start presenting hyperbole and rumor as truth, all of your comments come into question. I’m not questioning your general complaints, just pointing out an important way to tighten up your argument.
Billygoat… sheesh… you’re a serious bummer :) My position was not created by park management as a “tool” toward swaying the hearts and minds of dirt bag climbers. My boss and I carved out this position within the wilderness department to address the many wilderness related climbing issues that were previously falling through the cracks. How that resulted in me dolling out coffee to a bunch of dirt bags is a long story.
Sure, on bad days I feel like a powerless peon working for a gigantic bureaucracy, but most days I know the solution to whatever problem I’m dealing with is really not all that far off. It just takes people working together toward a common goal, and I’d rather be part of the solution than part of the problem (how’s that for management speak?). Have I been brainwashed? I guess I’m not the best judge of that… but I try hard not to get too sucked into the Yosemite soap opera. I’m not a power player in park management, which can be frustrating at times, but I get paid to be out experiencing Yosemite, and that’s why I came here in the first place.
Sure, maybe I’ve got my head in the clouds, but that’s a lot better than burying it in the sand. Someday I’ll be old and bitter, burnt out and cynical, but until then I’m going to try and cash in on what optimism I’ve still got.
Cheers,
-Link
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 22, 2005 - 07:41pm PT
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Link -
God Bless You!!! Keep up the superior work under taxing conditiions!! Your ability to sort through the rants to get to the base line issues are to be commended. Better to have your head in the clouds than in the sand any ole' day. Thank you for the update and to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel... in this day of instant gratification, the government processes are a lifetime to many who cannot imagine the time it has taken to get so many of the 'changes' implemented. peace and stay well.
Mom
P.S.
but those who use Camp 4 still need to clean up after themselves... just leave it better than than how you found it, restroom facilities especially!!
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Ditch Trad
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 22, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
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"The long and the short of it is that there is "no free lunch" anywhere."
No one here has mentioned John Salathe.
Those in the know will know what I'm sayin.
Speaking of..."Do as I say, not as I do."
I think that saying is responsible for 99.9999% of the world's problems...
Link, I'm sure you're stuck between a rock and a rock. I feel for you, but I think a few posts have been pretty insightful as to how the higherups are handling things...
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 22, 2005 - 10:00pm PT
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After reading some of the thread more carefully, to quote bvb:
"Letters to the superintendent, with copies cc:d to your congressional delegation, have a truly enormous impact if the numbers are sufficient. if the superintendent of yosemite were to recieve 400 complaint letters over the next two months regarding the abysmal conditions of the bathrooms in C4, and the general state of disrepair of C4's facilities, the chances are pretty good that C4 janitorial services might get ramped up, and/or some facility improvements would be made."
That's sound advice right there.
-Link
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 22, 2005 - 11:49pm PT
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The main problem is not so much Camp 4, but the massive influx of climbers since the mid 80s. In 1971, when I first showed up in the Vallley (and spent every summer there through undergrad and grad school), the place was basically the same, but with a tenth the crowd. Since there are no facilities save a bathroom, living there is, and has always been, a cave man kind of existence. But before all the folks showed up and the rangers buckled down, you could wheel your car into a campsite, put your speakers on top of the car and let it rip. It had a homey kind of atmosphere, and througout the 70s I rarely ever saw a ranger. Problem is the place hasn't kept up with the increased numbers, so instead of a campground, you basically have a ghetto. I can't imagine staying there now. The thrill is gone . . .
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2005 - 11:59pm PT
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No way Largo, the thrill is not gone, just the life has been sucked out of your soul.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 23, 2005 - 11:28am PT
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Locker, go back to guzzling K-Mart vodka, gassing live animals and abusing orphans and widows.
Warner, let me rephrase my statement(if I can just locate a little of my soul).
The thrill I once got from living in Camp 4 came in large part from a certain communal feel, when you knew most everyone there and you could wander around the place like you owned it. The place has a different feel these days. If I was 18 and psyched for all things Yosemite, I'd certainly put up with Camp 4, however.
JL
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 23, 2005 - 02:54pm PT
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John: here here; that was kinda my point about the “new” Camp 4 (as it will look in a few years after the make over). Hopefully a lot of the “problems” people complain about now will be “solved” after the place is redone (clean bathrooms, more parking, new tables, etc), but of course we’ll reminisce about the good old days when the bathroom was “full on.” Hell, I’m still here in the midst of it all, and I already catch myself getting all misty eyed about the way we “used” to do things just a few years ago. Camp 4 is dead, the climbing scene sucks, El Cap is so last year… just when I start to think along these lines, some dirt bag bumming a shower at my “house” in the valley will mention the Slovenians in the site next to him in camp… and the monkey calls in the meadow, and the pony keg on Lay Lady Ledge… and I realize the scene isn’t dead, it’s just different (the pony keg used to be on Mammoth). As long as the second to last pitch on Sons of Yesterday is perfect hands, the scene in Yosemite will live on.
-Link
PS: Speaking of scenes, just got back from Coffee in C4. Good time… no huge sagas to report. The coffee is still strong, the bathroom still stinks, Midnight Lightening is still greasy, and the crowd is still there.
Next week (Sunday the 30th) will be last Coffee of the season. Bring a costume.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 23, 2005 - 04:34pm PT
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Right you are, Link. So long as restless athletes keep pouring into the Valley the Dream will live on. It's just that way back when there was a place (Camp 4) where climbers could kindle the Dream somewhat in private. Now the place is just something to tolerate. Hope the makeover once again gives climbers a place they can call home, and where it feels like on as well.
JL
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Oct 23, 2005 - 05:26pm PT
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Late in reading this - just want to welcome NickH for showing up. Welcome!!!
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Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
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Oct 24, 2005 - 03:08am PT
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I'm still a young punk climber. I love the idea of c4. I've read about it in so many books. I love hearing the stories of all of the great climbers that spent summers there (and of those that still do.) I have only had the joy (and yes I do consider it a joy) of staying there once. Seems to be always full. Gross bathrooms are better than going in a poop tube. And if you don't feel that way then USE A POOP TUBE! I love stopping by for sunday moring coffee. I love to think about going there just to look at midnight lighting (I don't want to grease it up until I can fire V7s.) Of couse I think it is too small. One solution might be let more than 6 people to a site if they are willing to share.
My little rant is the about the morning that I had a ranger wake me and my group up at some ungodly hour asking me for my tag or whatever. We didn't want to bother to set up a tent for the evening so I stuck the tag on the corner of our tarp. I set it out there as plain as could see but, nope. Couldn't see it. I can't imagine that it was link who did it. He seems like to sharp of a guy to not be able to open his eyes. Enough complaining from me. I love camp four even if just for the idea of it, (the climbers camp.)
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briand
Trad climber
bay area
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Oct 24, 2005 - 03:38am PT
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Pombo Fattrad? He probably thinks logging in Yosemite would be a good use of resources.
Hopefully the "new" Camp 4 will help with most of the problems. I'm looking foreward to the changes. Camp 4 currently seems old and tired. And I'm tired of trying to find a place to stay everytime I go there. Climbers or not, there are just too many people. But you could say that in regards to many issues.
The thrill is still there for me though.
brian
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Sep 25, 2017 - 11:12pm PT
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Bump for this interesting, ans seemingly exhausted thread. But... where is that new bathroom?
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 26, 2017 - 12:36am PT
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I just picked up on this thread tonight and got all rapt up in it - until I realized it's fccking 12 years old! She-it, it's been almost 50 years since I used the facilities(?) at Camp 4.
I walked through Camp 4 last year during the face lift and found it not in anyway a pig sty. It had been probably 40 years since I had actually been in Camp 4. McLean and I stopped randomly and had a very interesting conversation with a young German climber. Yes, the place was full, but it was clean and it will never be the same as it was in the 60s. But Camp 4 will always remain what it was to me back then - a place that brings back warm and wonderful memories. Despite its lack of organization and superior accommodations, it was my home in Yosemite and I loved it!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Sep 26, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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Wow, an old, epic thread. I am of the generation who lived through the big change from free, unlimited off-season camping at C4. I hated the place, but at list BITD you could wander off into the boulders to actually get some sleep. I was never a long-term resident, but I did stay for about four weeks at one stretch, but this, gulp, was back in 1980. It was cool to be amongst so many incredible climbers. When you weren't trying to sleep, the vibe was truly energizing. Alas, the Valley has become so crowded now that I don't think I'll ever go back. When I was going regularly, there were something like 2--3 million visitors a year. I believe that is up to 5 million now. Hell, I understand even my beloved Joshua Tree is up to 3 million! WTF? Loving the great places to death. RIP C4. RIP Yos.
BAd
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 26, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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Location, location, location....the only reason to camp at Camp 4 or climb at Stony Point is their locations.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Sep 26, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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I never thought it was that gross. Definitely going to have the international climber ghetto thing going on but that's to be expected. I spent a good chunk of time there for a few years in a row enjoyed every bit of it mostly. I have some very fond memories of that tags for packs of cigarettes and just throwing out our bags in the middle of the night. Definitely something I'll never forget. I stayed there recently for a night and was lucky to have a hook up from the climbing Ranger Bud on on a site as we got ready for a half dome trip. Definitely went native to move in the woods afterwards. I do remember Rangers rolling through though, four abreast holding the shotgun like over there to scare bears in the middle of the day. Gestapo-ish
Other than that, very fond memories.
Edited to remove a a personal slant.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 26, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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Will somebody splain to me why climbers couldn't be allowed to spend a month in Camp 4? It isn't like the general pubic is suddenly going to rush in take advantage of it. Oh, wait, I forgot that the Park Service hates climbers.
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Sep 26, 2017 - 09:39am PT
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Its seems cleaner than in the 90's. The whole climbing scene seems less druggy and more healthy around C4.
For me I always love running into old friends and meeting worldly climbers, BUT after fall 2016 I will be finding my accommodations else where.
Sitting, not sleeping, in line (which started at 8pm the night before!), we were yelled at by the same ranger 3 different times! He was threatening to ticket, tow, and kick everyone out of the park. I never sleep or roll out pads in line, just sit and read, trying to do the right thing by legally getting a site. 99% of the rangers I have run into are fine, but this guy really felt he had something to prove. It really left me feeling that it is not worth the hassle.
In the end, I will start the same day I arrive to avoid C4.
At least they didn't tear it out and put in employee housing.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 26, 2017 - 10:18am PT
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Great rant. I haven't stayed there since 1990.
It always seems to me the USDA FS & NPS would do good to send their rangers to Disney parks training on customer service.
They sometimes seem to have a reverse strategy of driving people away.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Sep 26, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
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All this, and not a single snap of life way back when...
Photo by Glen Denny
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 26, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
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Seems like just a year ago...
...and it was.
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
Ventura
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Sep 26, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
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Yea, Camp four sucks. Haven't camped there for 20 years. However, when I was younger it worked, I figure our younger climbing friends like it. Yes there could be improvements. And I hope there could be some.
I now go off season and stay at the Yosemite lodge. Only $160 a night.
The older I am. The more I can $$
What should happen is put solar panels over the parking area. Plant more trees. Have bathrooms with showers to serve 10 sites.
Why don't we stop bitching and make it happen.
css
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Sep 26, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
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No squalor.
No ugly toilets.
No noise.
No tourons.
No cars.
No camping fees.
No rules.
No time limit.
No SAR site.
No rangers.
Just the bears, the Bird and me. Good times!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 27, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
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I thank my visits to Camp 4 in the 70's for confirming my sainted mum's
admonitions to maintain a high standard of personal hygiene. In Camp 4
that was a sliding or relative scale, the upper limits of which were very
low on me mum's scale, mind you.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 27, 2017 - 03:11pm PT
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Fall of the year was (probably still is) the best time to stay in C4, no question.
No squalor.
No ugly toilets.
No noise.
No tourons.
No cars.
No camping fees.
No rules.
No time limit.
No SAR site.
No rangers.
East Head and West Head had some heat
And you could shower across the street.
You could buy fuel for your stove or lamp--
O! it was so easy living in camp.
Roper paints a different picture, however, in his chapter in Camp 4 in '61-'64 titled "The Salamanders."
"The tourists, appalled by our wretched sites--strewn with equipment, down-spouting sleeping bags, and makeshift shelters--tried not to stare at us but usually failed.
Our bodies stunk and we wore our ragged clothing like a badge of honor. We enjoyed boisterous parties that lasted till midnight, and our language rang with obscenities."
Reilly's mum would have lost it, I'm sure.
My own mom asked who these degenerates were when we stayed in C4 in '62 as tourists. My dad told her they were just college students!
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Sep 27, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
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I camped at Camp 4 last in 2016. The lady ranger at the kiosk was an absolute sweetheart. Even when she told me I was out of bounds by pitching my tent on the far side of the creek bed. The main problem is the idiots that want to stay up late drinking and dropping the F bomb repeatedly. Some of us want to get up early to experience the park. It is not the Park Service. It is not the bathrooms. Do you really need a fancy bathroom if you are an outdoors person? So much whining. Unbelievable.
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