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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jan 11, 2016 - 09:06am PT
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^^^^^^ Uh.....Yea!!
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jan 11, 2016 - 09:28am PT
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Best way to go is call them "Routes That Don't Suck".
Gives you a pretty wide latitude, unless it's around here, and you're talking about Traveler Buttress.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jan 11, 2016 - 09:33am PT
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yea tradman, only lived in Cody for just three years.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 11, 2016 - 09:52am PT
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I bet there are those that would say the sport is all about bouldering... and others that would say it's all about mixed... and... It's all climbing. Right, and the common denominator is a focus on unaided movement harder than V0.
Most suggested additions and replacements to the original 50 (ie, C-macs 100, the LA Mountaineers top 25, 50 Favorites, etc) seem to involve replacing routes that are too easy or involve bits of aid for free climbs 5.9 and harder.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 11, 2016 - 09:52am PT
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Should eliminate several of those stupid snow climbs and the Royal Arches.
Good post by dee dee.
And Half Dome is likely not as classic... :)
BUT the book was not trying to gather the BEST 50 climbs, it was simply the picks of the author of climbs that were either good or significant historically, in their opinion. Remember, the authors, are accomplished climbers, obviously, but they are humans like you. Any individual that climbed a ton of sh#t can have their pick of 50 classics. Don't take this list too seriously.
I would substitute the Royal Arches with Snake Dike, and take off the reg. NW face and substitute it with the Direct NW face, if that is intact. OR maybe with S Face of Watkins. Even though I have not done either of those, I think they would make a better alternative at the time. I can easily come up with a 100 climbs that are worth doing in the NA.
South Face of Moro Rock could easily replace the Royal Arches. (I am not hating on RA because it is 'too easy for you,' I climbed it when it was an appropriate for me and both my partner and I didn't like the climb. The views are good, but the views are good from the Arrowhead Arete too. That climb is more interesting as well.
One many have not heard... Texas Tower Direct to Texas Hold'em to Lonestar link up, in Red Rocks. MEGA good.
Silk Road on Calaveras Dome and War of the Walls.
One of the routes on Prusik Peak (Solid Gold and Stanley Bergler...likely f-up the last names) or maybe Dragontail could be a great addition (Leavenworth Area).
About 10 routes on the Hulk that could be there haha. Many on Mt. Russell, S Face of Conness, Evolution Traverse.
Wind Rive Range climbs (the traverse)
Seems like Cassin on Denali, N buttress of Hunter and Ham and Eggs could be a contender, as it is the most popular route in Ruth Gorge?
Longer routes from Black Canyon deserve to be there..
Inti Watana to Resolution Arete link up in Red Rocks
Rostrum/Astroman
Honestly, new route a friend and I did on the Cherubim Dome (What Dreams May Come) and Subliminal Verses on the South Face of the Hamilton dome, are both REALLY f-king good. No only because I am somehow mentally invested in them because we climbed them. So is the Emperor on Bubbs Creek Wall (amazing long route), Tokopah Reality on Lower Tokopah Dome. And Wild West Crack on Serpent's Tooth. Very very good routes.
Ho Chi Minh Trail can substitute the East Buttress on Middle.
OZ with Gram Traverse
Don Juan, Atlantis, Airy Interlude, Igor Unchained, Pea Soup, Hardly Wallbanger and like everything else at the Needles.
Widow's Tears
Moonage Daydream on the Watchtower
Kitty from Hell on Chimney Spire
I can go on forever...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 11, 2016 - 09:52am PT
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ever hear of newfoundland? even without going that far north if you were doing a classic Ice list it would be hard to not have a look at Le Promenade, The last Gent, called on account of rains, China Shop, black dike, fafnir, Repentance and Remission.. heck even Ragnarock deserves a look
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:03am PT
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Looks like Gary's list/website is still up:
http://lamountaineers.org/NAC/browserf/other/misc/
Pretty good list of classic climbs.
I've always wondered about a few of the "classics" in the book. If a route has only been done once? Seems strange that it would be a classic.
I'd sub out the Hummingbird Ridge on Logan for the East Ridge (having seen both and climbed the East Ridge).
The classic on St. Elias doesn't get done anymore. Its a historical route, to be sure, but... If there is a classic on St. Elias...what would it be? Harvard Route? Mira Face? Boundary Route? Maybe not enough traffic to be considered classic...?
Mooses Tooth...sub out West Ridge for Ham and Eggs or the Crouch/Donini? West Ridge to the true summit...more busy than classic...
Huntington: Colton/Leach.
Middle Triple? Hmmm.
Devil's Tower: Durrance for the Weissner?
Probably find a spot for Moonlight Buttress in Zion.
Edit to add: Fifty Favorites has some beauties! Liked the mix of seasoned climbers and their favorite routes. Touched a lot of terrain and climbers!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:20am PT
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again. 50 classics ia a snapshot in time. it stands for what it was. Our lists will be new and flavored by our place in time..
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:02am PT
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ok, if you could do only one route in each state/province which would it be? The showpiece climb, free, aid, whatever? sorry florida, nebraska etc.
A summit?
A multi pitch free route?
an ice route?
alpine route?
single pitch free climb? (can this represent a state like california?)
death route?
Can there be aid involved (ala mexican hat)
I could not support shiprock for sake of bad rock.
Sundevil is a real line vs original route.
edith cavell as a great rockies line?
reg route on half dome is gone.
sorry, ne ridge of bugaboo is not that good, and going down the cain route blows.
/and i climbed in 10 degree weather in lake willoughby, great area when if the temp was 15 degrees warmer.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:14am PT
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Great now we can look forward to multiple rescues occurring on the new list.
For example the East ridge of Mt Temple saw a number of deaths and rescues within 1 year of 50 Classic Climbs being printed.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:50am PT
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Tami, mountainproject.com comes to mind. People vote on what is good or not good. You can check how popular something is by clicking on the route and seeing how many members have 'ticked' it. Of course, it does not always reveal the full story, as it is limited to those with an account, those who are ticking and rating.
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Andy Fielding
Trad climber
UK
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Jan 11, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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When "50 Classics" came out, the name was quickly changed to "50 Crowded Climbs" by the pundits.
Something similar happened here in the UK when Ken Wilson published Hard Rock. I was involved in rescuing a father and son from the easiest route in the book. They fully admitted they were only doing it to get a Hard Rock tick.
How many of us go to a new area or a new crag and only do the 3 star routes listed in the guide book? I've done it in France and Spain because I only had a limited time there. So how do we know which are the best places to go and therefore the right guide book to buy. As it has been said above perhaps the answer lies in cyber space but with so much information out there I think there is still a place for a list of the 50/100 best rock, ice, multi pitch, sport, aid climbs....etc.
By the way if someone does decide to update the list or the book please don't delete Royal Arches. It's the only one I've done. :)
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jan 11, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
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While I will not contribute an opinion because I am not worthy, I wanted to thank you, Phyl, for starting a climbing related thread.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jan 11, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
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Have them all be 50ft sport climbs.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Jan 11, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
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Andy mentioned the book "Hard Rock". It is one of a 4 part British series called "Classic Rock", "Hard Rock" "Extreme Rock" and "Cold Climbs" covering climbs in the UK. The latter covers ice climbs.
This division of climbs by difficulty illustrates that it is unrealistic to use one book or list to compare climbs of different character or grade. A two day alpine route in Alaska cannot be compared to a two day rock route in California. That's like comparing apples, oranges and peaches. It would be more meaningful to have three or more lists such as:
......50 Classic Alpine Routes
......50 Classic Rock Routes
......50 Classic Ice Routes
Besides choosing 50 routes, the other problem would be getting consensus on what constitutes a "classic".
I once had a visit from a Hong Kong radio disc jockey. He headed for the bookcase, and pulled out "Hard Rock". His look of disappointment was "classic".
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:04pm PT
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After thinking about this for a day or two, I do agree that any list of "classic" or "best" climbs quickly turns into crowded climbs.
My old climbing pal Gary Clark, does seem to have the best overall list of long classic climbs in North America. Although he has retired from the task, the Los Alamos climbing club maintains the valuable database.
http://lamountaineers.org/NAC/browserf/other/misc/
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
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why 50? How come not 32 or 69, or 71?
From the introduction:
"Only fifty routes, we felt, could be described adequately in a book this size."
"This size" means about 300 pages. The authors started with a list of nearly 100 climbs and pared it down.
The book was intended to be much more than a tick list, but also something different from a guidebook. It is coffee-table sized and each route gets 5--6 pages, so that's where 50 came from. Terms like "a celebration' or "an appreciation" are appropriate; I think the authors hoped to define what it meant to be a North American classic in 1979. In doing so, they were trying to bring into focus the entire North American mountain culture as they understood it and experienced it.
Part of that culture is the spectrum of mountain challenges it embraces, from the Cassin Ridge on Denali to, yes, the Traveler's Buttress on Lover's Leap, an inclusion that violated the author's 500-foot rule, at least partially because Robbins was so enthusiastic about the climb.
One of the ways that the text is a cultural document and not a tick list or selected climbs guide is reflected in the authors' criteria for inclusion. Yes, a route had to have "good" climbing, but it also had to have a place in the history of the endeavor, it had to be striking in form and milieu, and it had to have stood the test of time.
The authors leave some of their underlying intentions to a quote from Gaston Rebuffat in his book, Starlight and Storm:
Some mountaineers are proud of having done all their climbs without bivouac. How much they have missed! And the same applies to those who enjoy only rock climbing, or only the ice climbs, only the ridges or the faces. We should refuse none of the thousand and one joys that the mountains offer us at every turn. We should brush nothing aside, set no restrictions. We should experience hunger and thirst, be able to go fast, but also know how to go slowly and to contemplate.
Rebuffat wrote these words in 1954; he could hardly have imagined the fracturing and intense specialization that would characterize climbing development, nor could he have guessed that the Access Fund would have to embark on a program that attempts to sensitize climbers to the natural environment they practice their specializations on.
I think Roper and Steck, although situated in the American tradition, belonged more to Rebuffat's world than our current one, and this makes their book seem quaint---it isn't simply that the routes are now rather old. Their book was a book of dreams, as DMT says, but the dreams of a another time, the dreams of Pete Sinclair's "last innocent Americans" perhaps. But those dreams were the work of people who loved their subject and thought deeply about it, and their dreams did not spring from a soulless crowd-sourced statistical monstrosity culled from the content-free star ratings of Mountain Project. Save us, dear god, from such compilations!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 12, 2016 - 07:23am PT
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Thanks for this thread Phl!
That book was an inspiration, as well as a gestalt of the climbing idom in 1979.it was a less fragmented time, and rock lumbers were still pretty close to the mountaineering tradition; I do t think a 21st century book would have the '500' rule'.
The beauty of Steck's and Roper's book were the dreams it helped to foster. Thank you DMT! I suspect that it's not clear to contemporary climbers of whatever niche, how influential that book was.
Books reflect the times they were written, as well as, hopefully,some universal truths. Otherwise we wouldn't still be reading Crime and Punishment.
Climbing today is much more fraction/factionated then it was back in '79. And that book is a step in the road to the specialized disciplines we see today. Back then I thought that bigwall climbing was the Apogee of the rock climbing experience. But living in laramie ( Vedauwoo) I found an Unlooked for niche in Wyde cracks,when I lead my first 5.12 in '80 or so, my own path started to form, and I knew that those Alaska mtn snow climbs were going to the back burner ( I figured you could do that sh#t when you were old). Shortly after that the crack climbing in Indian took off, and showed us a glimpse of were we could go in that direction. I became obsessed with cracks ( esp, but not exclusively, Wyde) and walls and long free climbs, alpinism be damned.. I think we all found our own compromises.
Today, a book withe the wide spectrum would be even more hypothetical than that one was.we are ust more compartmentalized, now.
If books ( and lists )reflect their times, they also reflect their authors. Today there could be a myriad of these book / lists reflecting the reasons a diversity of people climb today
I could create a quirky Jaybro's pick volume one , aka the dicks picks in the grateful dead world. It would be an idiosyncratic, psychological manifestation of a long term climber influenced by, among other things, a book called @ Fifty classic climbs", there wold be hard Wyde climbs interspersed with easy classics.
What if, a bunch of diverse,disparate climbers made such lists? It could be its own thread
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2016 - 12:33pm PT
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and their dreams did not spring from a soulless crowd-sourced statistical monstrosity culled from the content-free star ratings of Mountain Project. Save us, dear god, from such compilations!
That's pure gold, RGOLD!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 12, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
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My first main climbing buddy bought a house right next to Sugarloaf (across the street from the gas station) because of the dreams fostered by Traveler's Buttress and our first aborted winter foray and seeing the For Sale sign in the window of the realty office while walking back to the car on unplowed roads. Would have never thought of going there if not for the 50 Classics.
There is something genius in picking a spot on a map or a line in a book, fantasizing about it, building yourself up to be ready (or not), and then just doing it. And then spraying about it online to form a community of folks who dig the same sort of thing.
The spontaneous adventures with no guides have their place too of course, but both are part of the great spiritual delight of climbing.
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