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Ben909
Sport climber
toronto
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Minds are made up.
Pot, meet kettle.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Who here critiquing besides Jaybro actually climbed or tried it? Lol - JBro is the Wankfather of the modern overgraded offwidth.
The real question is who besides JBro on this forum - or even the entire climbing community - is offering their expertise on 13+ without ever actually having climbed one?
So for this rig, it sounds like we have 1 repeat at 11- using the handcrack - 12- without.
I have to say 12- appears generous for a section you can still lock a heal-toe in, and the guy giving it that admits he's never touched a consensus 13. However - so be it - it still sounds way more real than 13+.
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Surfandstone
climber
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Oh wow, look at this pic of Tom on it.
That’s a clear variation, right? So far off route im about to spit!
HOHMANN the Bolter is awfully quiet now.
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PolishClimber
Trad climber
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Those saying that critiquing without actually having climbed it is off limits... Tom Randall climbed it, and it appears he chimed in...
And when he gives you the measurements, you chide him for bringing a tape measure...
It also sounds like the transition into the lie-back move is not necessarily height dependent, but that the FA simply chose a different path.
Downgrading the route takes nothing away from the FA, or the impressive athletic feat of the inversion. It is still a wild and impressive move, but it doesn't appear mandatory. I think the SA party is simply pointing out that there is an easier way forward.
The amount of rage being expressed over this is silly, frankly.
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Natetronn
climber
Sutter Creek
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God, I guess I'm going to have to get on this thing and settle the debate once and for all.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Geeze I don't know how many 5.9's I made into a 5.12d debacle in my lifetime or even A5. Hundreds I'd guess.
Carry on.
S....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Really Tom, a tape measure?😎
Ryan confessed to chopping it, it’s news to the world that’s he’s also climbed / inverted it. Maybe his belayer / chopping associate will shed some light on this.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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This discussion sounds a little like a discussion of the difference between a bouldering problem and a bouldering route. On the pebbles it makes sense.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Didn't that scary precipitous "death block" have someone pulling over/on it like a kid climbing on a refrigerator ?
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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I have not climbed this route yet but in my own experiences, so far I’ve found Pamela’s Event Horizon roof (13C) to be closer to 12-, Dark Passenger P2 (5.12) to be 11-, and Jihad (supposedly 5.13) to be 5.11a/b.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 10, 2019 - 02:25am PT
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“Mr Handstack” 1 post..... how’s things Danny?
When are you posting a TR on the CC?
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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May 10, 2019 - 07:26am PT
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Hey Jay, things are good! I literally don’t know what you mean by posting a TR?! Do you need help with CC? I’d be happy to help you if you’re still interested in it.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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May 10, 2019 - 09:00am PT
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Mr handstack, what would you rate century crack?
Thanks
Ezra
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rkrum
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 09:28am PT
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After consideration, I feel an explanation is warranted. There is quite a bit of misinformation being touted as undisputed truth.
Last spring, I climbed Kill Artist for myself for the first time. I am skipping over many details, but this was a route I had eagerly anticipated climbing. I was very disappointed when I found the route was not at all what I had been told to expect. After about a week of careful consideration, I went back, chopped and patched Kill Artist in its entirety (P1 has since been rebolted by Scott Massey and Pamela Pack) and cleaned up pitch 2 of Dark Passenger. No other people were involved in the climbing of the route, the decision to chop the route or the chopping and patching itself. I removed all the bolt parts and patched every empty hole. My intent was not to destroy but to make a statement that Kill Artist is NOT an example of how things ought to be done.
My decision to chop the entirety of Kill Artist rather than just the pro bolts was in an effort to separate myself from all the other "haters" that accuse Pamela of chronic over bolting. I was determined to make it clear that this wasn't just about a bolt or two, but something bigger than that. This was never motivated by anger or revenge. I went through ~$30 of epoxy and spent hours patching all 13 of the 1/2 inch holes myself. I think the effort I went through to not leave a blown out mess of rock up there backs up my assertion that this wasn't retribution.
I also removed and patched 6 bolts (5 pro bolts) from Dark Passenger on the basis that they were unnecessary, two of which were ASCA hardware placed on an original route. I have climbed the pitch without clipping the bolts before I decided they weren't needed. I want to note that this is how I believe the desert should be cleaned up. As Tom and Pete said, don't chop anchors too.
These lines are two of the most spectacular desert cracks I have ever laid eyes on. Both are 5 star desert offwidth multipitch routes. I absolutely agree with Tom and Pete that they should be sought after classics that many people would enjoy, not overhyped monuments for attention seeking behavior in Long Canyon.
I have not discussed this publicly up to this point because I did not feel there was any way it wouldn't devolve into a massive sh#t slinging contest. However, in lieu of Tom's write up, I am speaking up now in an effort to further constructive dialogue about how things should be done in an area and genre of climbing that is dearly important to me.
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rkrum
climber
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May 10, 2019 - 09:53am PT
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Honestly, I have a hard time saying I was involved in that route so much as I was a climbing partner and friends with Pam at the time she was putting up the route. I didn't really put any work into the route - I happened to show up one weekend to go climbing and was asked to say a few words about the it. Up to that point I had climbed p1 and peeked at p2 on my way down from dark passenger. At the time I did not realize the picture my words were helping paint.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
https://nutagain.org
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May 10, 2019 - 10:27am PT
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I've never climbed harder than a 5.10 OW and haven't laid eyes on the climb in question. That firmly establishes my lack of credentials for this conversation! In true Supertopo fashion, I won't let that stop me.
The pictures here do make it look like the left way up is the more obvious way to start over the roof, then reach across if the path continues up the right crack. The jams don't look heinous and the reach-across doesn't seem outrageous. It looks like something I would like to try on toprope or following a stronger leader. That said, I can't keep track of how many times I have thought something looked easy from below or guessed on a sequence or been impatient with a leader, only to understand how I was wrong when I was in the position doing it.
When I get on wide cracks, I tend to get tunnel-vision and just awkwardly smoosh my shoulders into a narrow flare and cheese-grader or inchworm my way up, and stick with wide jams. I easily miss features on the face or more outside stemming opportunities. Maybe folks who are good at and enjoy inverted OWs focus on those solution types while overlooking more obvious ways.
And lastly, different people carry different baggage about falling block accidents, and that causes very different but still valid perceptions about the risk of a big block coming loose. That figures hugely in how to solve a route problem. I have definitely done some stupid hard stuff to avoid touching suspicious features when there is an obvious way to just yank through.
In summation, those of us who haven't been there have no real basis to pass judgment, and those who have been there should not really give a crap about whatever judgment is passed :)
And ratings are useful when they help climbers seek out the right level of personal challenge. But they sure seem like a can of worms when we attach our identity or career to them. Then again, I haven't gone all in to the climbing game, so I don't really understand.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 10, 2019 - 11:44am PT
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a lot of hypocrisy in bolt choppers word. Most of the time choppers try to hide real intention of faking/arguing with other climbers as taking care of pristine rock and good climbing stile. Your better tell what up with you and your former partner
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 10, 2019 - 11:58am PT
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If he'd left the belay bolts in, the story would be a lot straighter - ie, hey this is a 5 star route everyone should do - and btw I feel strongly that the protection bolts should meet the standard of other routes in the area.
Erasing the route entirely = Pam said no to his advances.
The more I see inside this group of OW clowns, the more I see it all as nothing more than an alternative lifestyle - and at the same level - to a job at McDonald's. ie, GFL getting a clear and articulate reason for anything - grades, chopping - anything. All I see is childish insecurity and ego to a degree that would not be acceptable for a moment in the mature working career adult world - that none of them will ever be a part of and they know it.
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Mrhandstack
Trad climber
Sandy, Utah
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May 10, 2019 - 12:31pm PT
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Ezra,
It's really quite hard for me to suggest a grade for Century as it's the most difficult route I've climbed to date. Compared to routes like Gabriel, The Forever War, or even boulders like 8 ounces to freedom, Century feels miles away personally. I hope to climb more routes close to that grade here shortly so I can elaborate further, but if I were pressed to an answer I would confirm the Wideboyz suggested grade and be shocked if the grade were to drop whatsoever in the future.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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May 10, 2019 - 12:55pm PT
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Thanks for the thoughtful answer, Mr handstack.
climbers are my favorite group of people .
You can have discussions with the greats of the sport.
Cheers!
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