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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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LEB brought up the topic of throwing rocks at the crags on a small offshoot of Pete's memorial thread. To discuss (or rage) about the subject of folks who throw rocks or trundle at the crags (almost been killed by this myself) I'm creating this thread, as I think it would be inappropriate to muck up the memorial thread with it.
LEB linked this
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5674389,00.html
Wyo. man threw rock that killed climber
By Mead Gruver, Associated Press
August 16, 2007
CHEYENNE - A 15- to 20- pound rock that killed the Rocky Mountain regional director of the National Outdoor Leadership School as he was climbing near Lander last weekend was thrown by a 23-year-old Wyoming man, a prosecutor said Tuesday.
Fremont County Attorney Ed Newell said he would speak with relatives and friends of the victim, Pete Absolon, 47, before deciding whether to file charges.
Newell declined to identify the rock thrower.
But he said that judging from a sheriff's investigation, the man hadn't known that people were climbing below him.
He said a report he received from the sheriff's office Tuesday afternoon said the man who threw the rock was "remorseful" and fully cooperative.
"It's just a sad thing both for Mr. Absolon and the individual who threw the rock, and their family," he said.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:25am PT
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"It's just a sad thing both for Mr. Absolon and the individual who threw the rock, and their family," he said.
more that "just a sad thing," someone died, someone is left without a father, someone is left without a husband.
It seems a saddly typical response from law enforcement that climbers get what's coming to them.
The mind boggles at such a response.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:28am PT
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This is just so ugly. Remorseful, for sure.
Still, a senior moment for a 23 yo. I say he pays child support...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:33am PT
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ed,
i see your point. sometimes it is difficult to truly say the right thing in such a circumstance. as i said on the other thread i have been at a hanging belay on N. Chasm View in the Black when there were folks on top tossing rocks off. it is not a good place to be.
most climbers are smart enough to look before intentional trundling. i am not familiar with that part of the Winds but am very familiar with other less travelled areas. in many of the areas i have been it would have been a good assumption to think that there was nobody around. but still, climbers would KNOW and they would look down before any trundling or choose not to trundle at all.
the guy that threw the rock did a stupid thing, perhaps out of ignornance. apparently, it was not intentional and despite the rock thrower's stupidity, i can find a small bit of compassion for the feelings the he is experienceing. that small bit is nothing compared to what i feel for the family of the deceased even though i didnt know him.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:40am PT
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Okay, everyone who's never thrown a rock off a cliff, raise your hand. Gee, there are no hands up.
C'mon people. How is Joe Blow supposed to know that there are crazy asstards climbing up the cliff below them?
I've had this very thing happen to me before (I was the climber, not the thrower.) Fortunately, nothing hit me, and yeah, I was pissed. But the fact remains, there's no way in the world that some guy driving by has any way to know that there could be someone below him.
In places with crags right below the road, maybe some signage would be in order or something, but calling this murder or manslaughter is just stupid.
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:43am PT
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More like negligent homicide if anything. I am sure the guy feels terrible and had no intention of hurting anyone. Everyone does idiotic things they regret. I am not trying to justify his actions, but it sounds like he has fessed up and is cooperating which reflects well on his character.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:50am PT
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Cross post from the other thread.
Well people in the old days threw rocks off the top of Half Dome all the time. They would come whizzing by your head.
Then you scream obscenities at them and they would stop.
Happened all the time because the dumb ass idiots had no clue there were climbers below on the face.
Just kids with no clue.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:51am PT
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In my opinion he should be charged with murder or at the very least manslaughter...
And this accomplishes what? The family still has lost its father, and one of their means of support. Locking up the perp doesn't help them much.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:53am PT
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The rule to me has always been you don't trundle where people go. If I can see everything in front of me and I know that people aren't there, and I can ascertain that even if the rocks went off in a wild direction I can still see that there are no people there, than maybe it might be 'fun.' It is not worth it, and I don't think I will do this again, or espouse it, or let anyone near me do it.
If you want to Trundle, go to the Ruth gorge...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:53am PT
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I have given this a lot of thought. I tend to look from the other side often. For instance, you may recall I was one of the few people who from the start said you ought to give Michael Jackson the benefit of the doubt. [Yeah, he was found not guilty, doesn't mean he's didn't do something wrong, but that's not my point here, just my way of looking]
When I was about 17 - and before I knew anything at all about climbing - I was standing at the top of Rattlesnake Point in Ontario, a cool place for a young male. Young male - you know, the kind of person the accident statistics suggest is young and dumb? So I picked up a rock and chucked it off the top of the cliff. I don't recall if there was a sign warning not to do so, because there were climbers below, but from the top I couldn't see nor hear anyone, because it was such a gloriously wonderful thing to do - throwing a rock off the cliff - so I did it. And the shouts, curses, expletives and epithets that came screaming up to me from beneath prevented me from ever doing such a thing again!
You can be double damned sure the guy who chucked the rock is bloody sorry! He killed someone! So let he who has never done something really stupid cast the first stone at the stone chucker. As tragic as Pete's death is, the best course of action might be to forgive him, because he didn't know what he was doing. Prosecuting this guy for being stupid won't bring Pete back.
I'll admit there is a possible benefit of punitive example, whereby other people might think twice before throwing ....
nah.
Well, you could put some signs at the top of every crag ...
nah.
Now, you guys above make valid points, it is indeed a case of negligent homicide. But you speak from a climber's perspective! WE as climbers know better than to chuck rocks - it doesn't make any sense for people like us to throw rocks for fun. But it obviously never occured to this guy that somebody was climbing below him, or he wouldn't have done it. We're all educated in school not to drink and drive, because it's negligent and irresponsible and dangerous and you might get yourself or someone else killed. But where's the education in the mountains? Unfortunately, it really is fun to throw rocks because they make a big bang. If I knew I wouldn't hurt anyone, I'd do it more cuz it's kinda fun. Yahoos will be yahoos regardless.
You can't legislate common sense, but neither should you prosecute when it isn't exercised. The fact that Pete's friends and family have not ranted about this speaks very highly of them.
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:54am PT
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Forest - You mention that maybe signage would be a good idea advising people that climbers are below.
We climb regularly at Cathedral Ledge in No. Conway. This is a 600' granite cliff with a "tourist overlook" at the top. The tourists drive to the top to enjoy the view. The fenced in area where they stand has signs that clearly state not to throw rocks because climbers are below. Doesn't matter to some folks. Just the other night we were climbing a route below the outlook and rocks were thrown several times. We yell up, they throw again, we yell again. Sucks.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:58am PT
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Years ago I dug out two avalanche fatalities from the Gulf of Slides, just south of Tuckerman Ravine on Mt Washington, in NH. There had been a "high" avalanche danger posted that day (I think). In an unfortunate twist, the avy that took these two victims was triggered from above... by another backcountry traveler. Both parties were not visible to the other due to wind and blowing snow. The trigger man was not charged with anything.
I imagine that the young Wyoming man whose folly killed another is indeed feeling remorseful; his actions killed another. At the very least I imagine he could be held/charged with reckless endangerment. But I could also imagine a DA going for homicide.
I hope he's enough of a mensch to visit with Pete's family (if they agree to it), at an appropriate time after the memorial. It's so easy to do "the least you can do," and we rarely even accomplish this much!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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LEB,
i didnt call you petty, you called yourself that and i agree. i encouraged you to post on a different thread title for the family.
i am calling you an ignorant bitch. just wanted to make sure you understood what i really said.
just make sure that you quote me properly....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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Yes, anger tends to make you see black, and young passionate men sometimes say things they might later think twice about, and consider the edit button [HINT]. Peter's friends and family are truly taking the high road here, and this I both recognize and applaud. You know they are even angrier than we other climbers could ever be.
There is great merit to practising forgiveness here, not because it lets the rock chucker off the hook, but rather because it frees the hearts of Pete's loved ones from the bitterness of unforgiveness. It is shameful that a thread like this sits higher in the forum than the fine memorial thread to Pete.
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:07pm PT
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wow...some of you are seriously vengeful.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Kendal, English Lake District
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:15pm PT
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A very very sad and unfortunate accident that would be better served by widespread publicising to make sure that people know NOT to throw rocks off cliffs.
Maybe that is what the rock thrower should be involved in. Jail time won't bring Pete Absolon back or make it easier for his family. But making sure that everyone who ventures to the top of cliffs knows not to lob things off would be a better course of action I think.
Mick
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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Last year while putting up a new route in the Sandias on lead, I had just settled onto my hook and began drilling when some dipshit began yelling at me. He proceeded to call me a chickensh#t, coward, etc. and yell for the entire time I drilled the bolt. He was about about 250 above on top of the formation and was not visible. At the end of the that time he began to throw rocks in my direction although I am not sure he could see where I was. They came close to us causing quite a bit of concern and my partner and I began to yell back at the fool that we were coming up to kick his ass. By the time I finished the bolt, led out the rest of the crux pitch, and my partner led to the top, the idiot was not there.
I hope to find out who that was someday and teach him a good lesson although I am not a violent person. He could have killed me or my partner that day because he perceived that our placing a bolt in the Sandias violated his ethics. Even though his actions are inexcusable, he did not know we put the entire route up on lead with little to no fixed protection. Maybe some day he will try Thunderbird (5.12A R) and face the prospect of the leg-breaking fall above tiny RPs on the scariest pitch. Ah well, I got the first ascent of one of the best routes on the Muralla Grande and he got nothing--works for me.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Crowley,
trundle czar is appropriate. when you get the rock moving, it keeps rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling....
LEB should be put in charge of prisoner interrogations at Gitmo. they would either spill the beans or commit suicide....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2007 - 12:46pm PT
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"A very very sad and unfortunate accident that would be better served by widespread publicising to make sure that people know NOT to throw rocks off cliffs.
Maybe that is what the rock thrower should be involved in. Jail time won't bring Pete Absolon back or make it easier for his family. But making sure that everyone who ventures to the top of cliffs knows not to lob things off would be a better course of action I think.
Mick"
There you go. Many, many hours of community service for him!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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It said 15 to 20 lb. rock. What dimension would you say that might be? I know that we work with rock that weigh 200 to 300 and more pounds doing trailwork, and I think I've heard tell that the Gunks conglomerate goes at 150lbs/foot. If the Wind River rock is similar.....a 15-20 pound rock would be barely much more than a guy's hand size.
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