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Brian
climber
Cali
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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I'd never post this on the actual memorial page for Pete, but Karl started this to allow other venting...
LEB wrote "I do think we have to stop excusing everything in a warm and fuzzy manner and start insisting on personal responsibility."
I agree. However, it is curious how that was exactly not your perspective months (more?) ago when discussing cheating and plagiarism on Pete's thread/troll about his friend who lost his job. I'm way to lazy to go and find the link. My point is that when people simply let emotions overwhelm their reason, you get completely contradictory positions like this.
I don't think emotion is out of place here (I'm certainly upset for his family), and I realize that "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." But that does not mean that emotion should rule our actions, or that we should not demand at least a modicum of consistency from folks who shout out knee-jerk, black and white, extreme sorts of reactions (which, over time, prove to be contradictory).
I, by the way, am not immune to this very criticism.
Clearly this fellow needs to held responsible for his actions. However, to what extent he "should" have know that folks "might" be beneath him is up for debate. When someone does something wrong out of legitimate ignorance, we usually don't blame them. The issue here is the extent to which his ignorance is not legitimate, the extent to which we should hold him responsible for his ignorance.
Brian
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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Charge him with negligent homicide.
The courts will duly slap his wrists, but that will grease the skids for the victim's family to recover damages in civil court.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
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LEB,
in this case the perp has reportedly shown remorse. get your warm and fuzzies out.....
in terms of ignorance and bitch, communications with you are like a wild card. someone posts something, you read it, and it goes into your brain and your thoughts seem to come out like the guy retrieving the latest powerball pics....nobody knows what the hell is going to come out except that it is highly likely not related to what precipitated that thought.
but alas, you have worn me out, i give up.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:59pm PT
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i used to be a young, good looking man until i engaged in internet discussions wiht you LEB.....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:03pm PT
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She's a tough adversary, Hawkeye, as are you. It's a hugely emotional issue, isn't it? We're all mad as hell, but when you think about it, what can you do?
I think Mick's idea bears merit - making the rock chucker do lots of community service to bring around the word not to toss stones off of cliffs could help prevent another accident.
So would signs at the top of the cliff, which are annoying, but they have them in lots of places, don't they? [I don't spend much time at the top of cliffs these days, except El Cap, and that's a little big to sign....] Maybe those nice National Park - like signs made out of wood instead of an ugly metal highway-like signs?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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Lois wrote:
"Happi,
I think it would be much bigger than a person's hand. "
That is why I asked someone knowledgable if they could give an idea. Someone with knowledge would, most likely, be familiar with the rock type in question, and also know/be able to run the equation to etermine the approximate size.
I am not a mathemetician, as TradIsGood likes to point out. So the best I can do is this...
 If a GUNKS rock that is 1 cubic foot(12 x 12 x 12 inches) weight 150 pounds, a rock half that size weighs about 75. A rock half THAT size weights about 35 and yet one half THAT size is 15-20 pounds, or the size that killed this man.
Most of us can vizualize a 12 x 12 x 12 object, and then imagine halving it... I invite you to do this, Lois, if you believe it would have to be much bigger than a man's hand - and you tell me - what sort of an object would YOU think that 15-20 pound rock would be?
Baseball? Softball? Basketball? Microwave? Refridgerator? VW Beetle? House?
Or else...you could wait and see if someone who has the information might like to advise.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:07pm PT
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Lois writes,
"Is it reasonable to believe that a 23 year old man with normal IQ could not know that a rock thrown off a cliff is potentially fatal to a victim? Why did he do it in the first place?"
Oh come on, Lois! It's FUN to throw rocks! We as climbers just know better. I can't imagine for a moment that the rock chucker KNEW that Pete or anyone else was below - it never occured to him to consider a human being in such a strange place as halfway up the side of a cliff. It doesn't mean he had a bad heart, it doesn't even mean he's stupid. He just wasn't thinking. This is not an excuse, it is merely the reason.
In the extra-ordinarily unlikely situation that he knew someone was there, and chose to throw the rock anyway, a different outlook regarding punishment is required. I can't imagine he did it on purpose, although the possibilty exists.
[Note to guys, especially young ones or those who once were: Doesn't this dame get it? Sheesh. And if you need to make an arithmetic calculation to figure out how big a fifteen- or twenty-pound rock is, you probably haven't touched any rock in a while]
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:12pm PT
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LEB = Trundling Juan?
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
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Would you feel the same if he had accidentally kicked the rock over the edge? Or if he had it in his hand but accidentally dropped it? Or if a climber accidentally dropped a piece of gear from up on El Cap that killed someone? Or purposely trundled loose rock in order to make a climb safer for others and in the process killed someone? Or if you were skipping rocks on a lake and killed a scuba diver?
My point is throwing rocks is not per se negligent. Pete knew the mountains were dangerous and chose to be there. Would you feel the same if it were his partner that had ventured upon a rock covered ledge and was not careful? I doubt it. This poor guy will also have to deal for the rest of his life with the fact that he killed someones husband, father, brother, son etc. away by doing something careless. I actually feel nearly as sorry for him as I do for the family, having to carry that load for something totally cafeless and unintential.
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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well said, mbb
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:19pm PT
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Thats quite an assumption, Lois. Maybe you should stfu now.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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Word, mbb. For someone who intended no malice, what punishment could be worse than knowing everyday for the rest of your life that in a moment of careless playing, you killed someone? There but for the grace of god...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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Lawsy lawsy lawsy.... you really just don't get it today, do you, Lois?
Explanation to the always-passionate but occasionally-thick Lois: Just because men have thrown rocks at other men in the past on purpose - a rare event - does not mean that this particular man threw rocks at Pete on purpose. Correlation is not causality!
{Dr. Piton wanders away, hands clasped behind his back, shaking his head. Time to go for a drive to the Matanuska Glacier...}
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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"Now THAT, I would have had a hard time defending. Calling me a "bitch" and "ignorant" when I am generally very soft-hearted and hold a master's degree is just plain bad "warfare." You should never just fire a salvo. Always wait until you get view of the underbelly or vulnerable spot of the opponent and then shoot to kill. Make sure you do your homework so you know your opponant's weak spots. Most importanly, always do so on defense. NEVER do so on an unprovoked offense. Going for the throat and ripping it out is only justified on defense. Otherwise we should be loving and supportive of one another"
Kudos Lois. Excellent treatise on gutting one's opponent. LOL!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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LEB, my dear,
striking at you feels a lot like kicking a fresh cow pie, it flies in a lot of diferent directions but you still end up soiled.
mbb, good post.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Tradchick:
We climb regularly at Cathedral Ledge in No. Conway. This is a 600' granite cliff with a "tourist overlook" at the top. The tourists drive to the top to enjoy the view. The fenced in area where they stand has signs that clearly state not to throw rocks because climbers are below. Doesn't matter to some folks. Just the other night we were climbing a route below the outlook and rocks were thrown several times. We yell up, they throw again, we yell again. Sucks.
Borrowed from a happier thread, here's a photo of that warning sign Tradchick mentions. But my wife and I were up at Cathedral this morning, climbing a route (The Saigons) within throwing range of someone standing by that sign. The base of our climb was littered with broken glass, fresh enough to drive home the point that plenty of people still treat it as a free-fire zone.
Hell, some people will throw things because they know climbers are below. I think there should be consequences that make the news. In this sad Wyoming case, restitution to the family sounds right.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
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I see a crack in the pavement in the above photo.
Will the bottom fall out?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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thats great signage! but not in keeping with wilderness nor reasonable for all the peaks in the wind river range.
LEB, i am not in the least bit interested in winning or losing in a discussion with you, even resonding to your posts is a mistake as I now need to take a shower. i mean cow pies are about as unoffensive as it comes but its still dung...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:44pm PT
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When I was a boyscout, long before testosterone poisoning, I learned in no uncertain terms that throwing rocks off of cliffs was not allowable as you could never be certain that someone wasn't below. The Dads told us so, and very forcefully.
When we clean routes these days, we trundle only when we are absolutely sure no one is in the area, and call down well in advance "ROCK! ROCK! ROCK!" wait and repeat. Still there is a inhibition to do so, it is not safe, but the risks can be reduced.
I remember the sign on top of Cathedral Ledge, "Do not throw rocks," I don't remember seeing a sign for the climbers on approach "Warning, people are throwing rocks, you risk injury or death climbing here." There is a fundamental difference, at least in our culture, differentiating an intentional act from a natural act. A human triggered avalanche is not intentional, and most often difficult to predict (usually someone wouldn't risk it). The warning signs, and the reputation of winter travel in the Whites in the winter would suggest that there are hazards.
Trundling has never been anything but an intentional act. If someone dies because of that act, then the trundler is responsible. Remorse is a good sign, but it does not absolve the person of the consequence of that act.
The response "gee, I didn't know someone was there" is precisely the point, you shouldn't have thrown the rock. As imperfect as our legal system is, the person who threw the rock has caused, as a consequence of his action, the loss of life and livelyhood in a family. It is just that this loss be compensated for in some manner.
I don't see that point of view as being vengeful or angry. I am sad for the loss of a climber's life by a thoughtless act so easily avoided.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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WBraun:
I see a crack in the pavement in the above photo.
Will the bottom fall out?
Heh, the pavement is Cathedral Ledge itself, and some day no doubt it will fall.
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