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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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LEB brought up the topic of throwing rocks at the crags on a small offshoot of Pete's memorial thread. To discuss (or rage) about the subject of folks who throw rocks or trundle at the crags (almost been killed by this myself) I'm creating this thread, as I think it would be inappropriate to muck up the memorial thread with it.
LEB linked this
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5674389,00.html
Wyo. man threw rock that killed climber
By Mead Gruver, Associated Press
August 16, 2007
CHEYENNE - A 15- to 20- pound rock that killed the Rocky Mountain regional director of the National Outdoor Leadership School as he was climbing near Lander last weekend was thrown by a 23-year-old Wyoming man, a prosecutor said Tuesday.
Fremont County Attorney Ed Newell said he would speak with relatives and friends of the victim, Pete Absolon, 47, before deciding whether to file charges.
Newell declined to identify the rock thrower.
But he said that judging from a sheriff's investigation, the man hadn't known that people were climbing below him.
He said a report he received from the sheriff's office Tuesday afternoon said the man who threw the rock was "remorseful" and fully cooperative.
"It's just a sad thing both for Mr. Absolon and the individual who threw the rock, and their family," he said.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:25am PT
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"It's just a sad thing both for Mr. Absolon and the individual who threw the rock, and their family," he said.
more that "just a sad thing," someone died, someone is left without a father, someone is left without a husband.
It seems a saddly typical response from law enforcement that climbers get what's coming to them.
The mind boggles at such a response.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:28am PT
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This is just so ugly. Remorseful, for sure.
Still, a senior moment for a 23 yo. I say he pays child support...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:33am PT
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ed,
i see your point. sometimes it is difficult to truly say the right thing in such a circumstance. as i said on the other thread i have been at a hanging belay on N. Chasm View in the Black when there were folks on top tossing rocks off. it is not a good place to be.
most climbers are smart enough to look before intentional trundling. i am not familiar with that part of the Winds but am very familiar with other less travelled areas. in many of the areas i have been it would have been a good assumption to think that there was nobody around. but still, climbers would KNOW and they would look down before any trundling or choose not to trundle at all.
the guy that threw the rock did a stupid thing, perhaps out of ignornance. apparently, it was not intentional and despite the rock thrower's stupidity, i can find a small bit of compassion for the feelings the he is experienceing. that small bit is nothing compared to what i feel for the family of the deceased even though i didnt know him.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:40am PT
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Okay, everyone who's never thrown a rock off a cliff, raise your hand. Gee, there are no hands up.
C'mon people. How is Joe Blow supposed to know that there are crazy asstards climbing up the cliff below them?
I've had this very thing happen to me before (I was the climber, not the thrower.) Fortunately, nothing hit me, and yeah, I was pissed. But the fact remains, there's no way in the world that some guy driving by has any way to know that there could be someone below him.
In places with crags right below the road, maybe some signage would be in order or something, but calling this murder or manslaughter is just stupid.
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:43am PT
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More like negligent homicide if anything. I am sure the guy feels terrible and had no intention of hurting anyone. Everyone does idiotic things they regret. I am not trying to justify his actions, but it sounds like he has fessed up and is cooperating which reflects well on his character.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:50am PT
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Cross post from the other thread.
Well people in the old days threw rocks off the top of Half Dome all the time. They would come whizzing by your head.
Then you scream obscenities at them and they would stop.
Happened all the time because the dumb ass idiots had no clue there were climbers below on the face.
Just kids with no clue.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:51am PT
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In my opinion he should be charged with murder or at the very least manslaughter...
And this accomplishes what? The family still has lost its father, and one of their means of support. Locking up the perp doesn't help them much.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:53am PT
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The rule to me has always been you don't trundle where people go. If I can see everything in front of me and I know that people aren't there, and I can ascertain that even if the rocks went off in a wild direction I can still see that there are no people there, than maybe it might be 'fun.' It is not worth it, and I don't think I will do this again, or espouse it, or let anyone near me do it.
If you want to Trundle, go to the Ruth gorge...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:53am PT
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I have given this a lot of thought. I tend to look from the other side often. For instance, you may recall I was one of the few people who from the start said you ought to give Michael Jackson the benefit of the doubt. [Yeah, he was found not guilty, doesn't mean he's didn't do something wrong, but that's not my point here, just my way of looking]
When I was about 17 - and before I knew anything at all about climbing - I was standing at the top of Rattlesnake Point in Ontario, a cool place for a young male. Young male - you know, the kind of person the accident statistics suggest is young and dumb? So I picked up a rock and chucked it off the top of the cliff. I don't recall if there was a sign warning not to do so, because there were climbers below, but from the top I couldn't see nor hear anyone, because it was such a gloriously wonderful thing to do - throwing a rock off the cliff - so I did it. And the shouts, curses, expletives and epithets that came screaming up to me from beneath prevented me from ever doing such a thing again!
You can be double damned sure the guy who chucked the rock is bloody sorry! He killed someone! So let he who has never done something really stupid cast the first stone at the stone chucker. As tragic as Pete's death is, the best course of action might be to forgive him, because he didn't know what he was doing. Prosecuting this guy for being stupid won't bring Pete back.
I'll admit there is a possible benefit of punitive example, whereby other people might think twice before throwing ....
nah.
Well, you could put some signs at the top of every crag ...
nah.
Now, you guys above make valid points, it is indeed a case of negligent homicide. But you speak from a climber's perspective! WE as climbers know better than to chuck rocks - it doesn't make any sense for people like us to throw rocks for fun. But it obviously never occured to this guy that somebody was climbing below him, or he wouldn't have done it. We're all educated in school not to drink and drive, because it's negligent and irresponsible and dangerous and you might get yourself or someone else killed. But where's the education in the mountains? Unfortunately, it really is fun to throw rocks because they make a big bang. If I knew I wouldn't hurt anyone, I'd do it more cuz it's kinda fun. Yahoos will be yahoos regardless.
You can't legislate common sense, but neither should you prosecute when it isn't exercised. The fact that Pete's friends and family have not ranted about this speaks very highly of them.
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:54am PT
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Forest - You mention that maybe signage would be a good idea advising people that climbers are below.
We climb regularly at Cathedral Ledge in No. Conway. This is a 600' granite cliff with a "tourist overlook" at the top. The tourists drive to the top to enjoy the view. The fenced in area where they stand has signs that clearly state not to throw rocks because climbers are below. Doesn't matter to some folks. Just the other night we were climbing a route below the outlook and rocks were thrown several times. We yell up, they throw again, we yell again. Sucks.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:58am PT
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Years ago I dug out two avalanche fatalities from the Gulf of Slides, just south of Tuckerman Ravine on Mt Washington, in NH. There had been a "high" avalanche danger posted that day (I think). In an unfortunate twist, the avy that took these two victims was triggered from above... by another backcountry traveler. Both parties were not visible to the other due to wind and blowing snow. The trigger man was not charged with anything.
I imagine that the young Wyoming man whose folly killed another is indeed feeling remorseful; his actions killed another. At the very least I imagine he could be held/charged with reckless endangerment. But I could also imagine a DA going for homicide.
I hope he's enough of a mensch to visit with Pete's family (if they agree to it), at an appropriate time after the memorial. It's so easy to do "the least you can do," and we rarely even accomplish this much!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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LEB,
i didnt call you petty, you called yourself that and i agree. i encouraged you to post on a different thread title for the family.
i am calling you an ignorant bitch. just wanted to make sure you understood what i really said.
just make sure that you quote me properly....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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Yes, anger tends to make you see black, and young passionate men sometimes say things they might later think twice about, and consider the edit button [HINT]. Peter's friends and family are truly taking the high road here, and this I both recognize and applaud. You know they are even angrier than we other climbers could ever be.
There is great merit to practising forgiveness here, not because it lets the rock chucker off the hook, but rather because it frees the hearts of Pete's loved ones from the bitterness of unforgiveness. It is shameful that a thread like this sits higher in the forum than the fine memorial thread to Pete.
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:07pm PT
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wow...some of you are seriously vengeful.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Kendal, English Lake District
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:15pm PT
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A very very sad and unfortunate accident that would be better served by widespread publicising to make sure that people know NOT to throw rocks off cliffs.
Maybe that is what the rock thrower should be involved in. Jail time won't bring Pete Absolon back or make it easier for his family. But making sure that everyone who ventures to the top of cliffs knows not to lob things off would be a better course of action I think.
Mick
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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Last year while putting up a new route in the Sandias on lead, I had just settled onto my hook and began drilling when some dipshit began yelling at me. He proceeded to call me a chickensh#t, coward, etc. and yell for the entire time I drilled the bolt. He was about about 250 above on top of the formation and was not visible. At the end of the that time he began to throw rocks in my direction although I am not sure he could see where I was. They came close to us causing quite a bit of concern and my partner and I began to yell back at the fool that we were coming up to kick his ass. By the time I finished the bolt, led out the rest of the crux pitch, and my partner led to the top, the idiot was not there.
I hope to find out who that was someday and teach him a good lesson although I am not a violent person. He could have killed me or my partner that day because he perceived that our placing a bolt in the Sandias violated his ethics. Even though his actions are inexcusable, he did not know we put the entire route up on lead with little to no fixed protection. Maybe some day he will try Thunderbird (5.12A R) and face the prospect of the leg-breaking fall above tiny RPs on the scariest pitch. Ah well, I got the first ascent of one of the best routes on the Muralla Grande and he got nothing--works for me.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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Crowley,
trundle czar is appropriate. when you get the rock moving, it keeps rolling and rolling and rolling and rolling....
LEB should be put in charge of prisoner interrogations at Gitmo. they would either spill the beans or commit suicide....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2007 - 12:46pm PT
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"A very very sad and unfortunate accident that would be better served by widespread publicising to make sure that people know NOT to throw rocks off cliffs.
Maybe that is what the rock thrower should be involved in. Jail time won't bring Pete Absolon back or make it easier for his family. But making sure that everyone who ventures to the top of cliffs knows not to lob things off would be a better course of action I think.
Mick"
There you go. Many, many hours of community service for him!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Aug 16, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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It said 15 to 20 lb. rock. What dimension would you say that might be? I know that we work with rock that weigh 200 to 300 and more pounds doing trailwork, and I think I've heard tell that the Gunks conglomerate goes at 150lbs/foot. If the Wind River rock is similar.....a 15-20 pound rock would be barely much more than a guy's hand size.
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:04pm PT
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I'd never post this on the actual memorial page for Pete, but Karl started this to allow other venting...
LEB wrote "I do think we have to stop excusing everything in a warm and fuzzy manner and start insisting on personal responsibility."
I agree. However, it is curious how that was exactly not your perspective months (more?) ago when discussing cheating and plagiarism on Pete's thread/troll about his friend who lost his job. I'm way to lazy to go and find the link. My point is that when people simply let emotions overwhelm their reason, you get completely contradictory positions like this.
I don't think emotion is out of place here (I'm certainly upset for his family), and I realize that "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." But that does not mean that emotion should rule our actions, or that we should not demand at least a modicum of consistency from folks who shout out knee-jerk, black and white, extreme sorts of reactions (which, over time, prove to be contradictory).
I, by the way, am not immune to this very criticism.
Clearly this fellow needs to held responsible for his actions. However, to what extent he "should" have know that folks "might" be beneath him is up for debate. When someone does something wrong out of legitimate ignorance, we usually don't blame them. The issue here is the extent to which his ignorance is not legitimate, the extent to which we should hold him responsible for his ignorance.
Brian
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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Charge him with negligent homicide.
The courts will duly slap his wrists, but that will grease the skids for the victim's family to recover damages in civil court.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
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LEB,
in this case the perp has reportedly shown remorse. get your warm and fuzzies out.....
in terms of ignorance and bitch, communications with you are like a wild card. someone posts something, you read it, and it goes into your brain and your thoughts seem to come out like the guy retrieving the latest powerball pics....nobody knows what the hell is going to come out except that it is highly likely not related to what precipitated that thought.
but alas, you have worn me out, i give up.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 01:59pm PT
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i used to be a young, good looking man until i engaged in internet discussions wiht you LEB.....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:03pm PT
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She's a tough adversary, Hawkeye, as are you. It's a hugely emotional issue, isn't it? We're all mad as hell, but when you think about it, what can you do?
I think Mick's idea bears merit - making the rock chucker do lots of community service to bring around the word not to toss stones off of cliffs could help prevent another accident.
So would signs at the top of the cliff, which are annoying, but they have them in lots of places, don't they? [I don't spend much time at the top of cliffs these days, except El Cap, and that's a little big to sign....] Maybe those nice National Park - like signs made out of wood instead of an ugly metal highway-like signs?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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Lois wrote:
"Happi,
I think it would be much bigger than a person's hand. "
That is why I asked someone knowledgable if they could give an idea. Someone with knowledge would, most likely, be familiar with the rock type in question, and also know/be able to run the equation to etermine the approximate size.
I am not a mathemetician, as TradIsGood likes to point out. So the best I can do is this...
 If a GUNKS rock that is 1 cubic foot(12 x 12 x 12 inches) weight 150 pounds, a rock half that size weighs about 75. A rock half THAT size weights about 35 and yet one half THAT size is 15-20 pounds, or the size that killed this man.
Most of us can vizualize a 12 x 12 x 12 object, and then imagine halving it... I invite you to do this, Lois, if you believe it would have to be much bigger than a man's hand - and you tell me - what sort of an object would YOU think that 15-20 pound rock would be?
Baseball? Softball? Basketball? Microwave? Refridgerator? VW Beetle? House?
Or else...you could wait and see if someone who has the information might like to advise.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:07pm PT
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Lois writes,
"Is it reasonable to believe that a 23 year old man with normal IQ could not know that a rock thrown off a cliff is potentially fatal to a victim? Why did he do it in the first place?"
Oh come on, Lois! It's FUN to throw rocks! We as climbers just know better. I can't imagine for a moment that the rock chucker KNEW that Pete or anyone else was below - it never occured to him to consider a human being in such a strange place as halfway up the side of a cliff. It doesn't mean he had a bad heart, it doesn't even mean he's stupid. He just wasn't thinking. This is not an excuse, it is merely the reason.
In the extra-ordinarily unlikely situation that he knew someone was there, and chose to throw the rock anyway, a different outlook regarding punishment is required. I can't imagine he did it on purpose, although the possibilty exists.
[Note to guys, especially young ones or those who once were: Doesn't this dame get it? Sheesh. And if you need to make an arithmetic calculation to figure out how big a fifteen- or twenty-pound rock is, you probably haven't touched any rock in a while]
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:12pm PT
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LEB = Trundling Juan?
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
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Would you feel the same if he had accidentally kicked the rock over the edge? Or if he had it in his hand but accidentally dropped it? Or if a climber accidentally dropped a piece of gear from up on El Cap that killed someone? Or purposely trundled loose rock in order to make a climb safer for others and in the process killed someone? Or if you were skipping rocks on a lake and killed a scuba diver?
My point is throwing rocks is not per se negligent. Pete knew the mountains were dangerous and chose to be there. Would you feel the same if it were his partner that had ventured upon a rock covered ledge and was not careful? I doubt it. This poor guy will also have to deal for the rest of his life with the fact that he killed someones husband, father, brother, son etc. away by doing something careless. I actually feel nearly as sorry for him as I do for the family, having to carry that load for something totally cafeless and unintential.
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:14pm PT
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well said, mbb
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ADK
climber
truckee
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:19pm PT
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Thats quite an assumption, Lois. Maybe you should stfu now.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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Word, mbb. For someone who intended no malice, what punishment could be worse than knowing everyday for the rest of your life that in a moment of careless playing, you killed someone? There but for the grace of god...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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Lawsy lawsy lawsy.... you really just don't get it today, do you, Lois?
Explanation to the always-passionate but occasionally-thick Lois: Just because men have thrown rocks at other men in the past on purpose - a rare event - does not mean that this particular man threw rocks at Pete on purpose. Correlation is not causality!
{Dr. Piton wanders away, hands clasped behind his back, shaking his head. Time to go for a drive to the Matanuska Glacier...}
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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"Now THAT, I would have had a hard time defending. Calling me a "bitch" and "ignorant" when I am generally very soft-hearted and hold a master's degree is just plain bad "warfare." You should never just fire a salvo. Always wait until you get view of the underbelly or vulnerable spot of the opponent and then shoot to kill. Make sure you do your homework so you know your opponant's weak spots. Most importanly, always do so on defense. NEVER do so on an unprovoked offense. Going for the throat and ripping it out is only justified on defense. Otherwise we should be loving and supportive of one another"
Kudos Lois. Excellent treatise on gutting one's opponent. LOL!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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LEB, my dear,
striking at you feels a lot like kicking a fresh cow pie, it flies in a lot of diferent directions but you still end up soiled.
mbb, good post.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Tradchick:
We climb regularly at Cathedral Ledge in No. Conway. This is a 600' granite cliff with a "tourist overlook" at the top. The tourists drive to the top to enjoy the view. The fenced in area where they stand has signs that clearly state not to throw rocks because climbers are below. Doesn't matter to some folks. Just the other night we were climbing a route below the outlook and rocks were thrown several times. We yell up, they throw again, we yell again. Sucks.
Borrowed from a happier thread, here's a photo of that warning sign Tradchick mentions. But my wife and I were up at Cathedral this morning, climbing a route (The Saigons) within throwing range of someone standing by that sign. The base of our climb was littered with broken glass, fresh enough to drive home the point that plenty of people still treat it as a free-fire zone.
Hell, some people will throw things because they know climbers are below. I think there should be consequences that make the news. In this sad Wyoming case, restitution to the family sounds right.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
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I see a crack in the pavement in the above photo.
Will the bottom fall out?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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thats great signage! but not in keeping with wilderness nor reasonable for all the peaks in the wind river range.
LEB, i am not in the least bit interested in winning or losing in a discussion with you, even resonding to your posts is a mistake as I now need to take a shower. i mean cow pies are about as unoffensive as it comes but its still dung...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:44pm PT
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When I was a boyscout, long before testosterone poisoning, I learned in no uncertain terms that throwing rocks off of cliffs was not allowable as you could never be certain that someone wasn't below. The Dads told us so, and very forcefully.
When we clean routes these days, we trundle only when we are absolutely sure no one is in the area, and call down well in advance "ROCK! ROCK! ROCK!" wait and repeat. Still there is a inhibition to do so, it is not safe, but the risks can be reduced.
I remember the sign on top of Cathedral Ledge, "Do not throw rocks," I don't remember seeing a sign for the climbers on approach "Warning, people are throwing rocks, you risk injury or death climbing here." There is a fundamental difference, at least in our culture, differentiating an intentional act from a natural act. A human triggered avalanche is not intentional, and most often difficult to predict (usually someone wouldn't risk it). The warning signs, and the reputation of winter travel in the Whites in the winter would suggest that there are hazards.
Trundling has never been anything but an intentional act. If someone dies because of that act, then the trundler is responsible. Remorse is a good sign, but it does not absolve the person of the consequence of that act.
The response "gee, I didn't know someone was there" is precisely the point, you shouldn't have thrown the rock. As imperfect as our legal system is, the person who threw the rock has caused, as a consequence of his action, the loss of life and livelyhood in a family. It is just that this loss be compensated for in some manner.
I don't see that point of view as being vengeful or angry. I am sad for the loss of a climber's life by a thoughtless act so easily avoided.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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WBraun:
I see a crack in the pavement in the above photo.
Will the bottom fall out?
Heh, the pavement is Cathedral Ledge itself, and some day no doubt it will fall.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Aug 16, 2007 - 02:52pm PT
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Hawkeye:
thats great signage! but not in keeping with wilderness nor reasonable for all the peaks in the wind river range.
Certainly not. And even where it is reasonable, like Cathedral Ledge, evidence shows it's not yahoo-proof.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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nice pic though. i am surprised that they let tar keep his hat on out there in the east....you may want to let him know that they make hard cowboy hats, better protection you know!
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Aug 16, 2007 - 03:28pm PT
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Have tickets issued for throwing rocks off cliff tops. Start with a low fine then stiffen it over the years.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Aug 16, 2007 - 03:28pm PT
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There needs to be appropriate legal consequences for the guy that threw the rock, because his actions have resulted in obvious and serious harm. In my opinion, homicide is not an appropriate legal consequence. I think it is most appropriate to do what the prosecutor has said he intends to do: talk to the family of Pete Absolon, and see what they say, and balance that with what is available in terms of charges that might be brought.
I'm sure this young guy will feel awful for the rest of his life, if he is truly remorseful. But there needs to be more; for the family of Pete Absolon, and for society. His apparent two tours in Iraq should not be factored into the situation at all.
I don't in the least feel as bad for the thrower, and the remorse he may feel as I do for the family of the victim. That's ludicrous. Maybe the fact that I am a father of young children is having too great an influence on my thoughts about this situation, but I just can't get by thinking of the little girl who will grow up without a father in her life.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Aug 16, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
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A friend made up a sign for Devil's Castle here in the Wasatch that warned hikers about climbers below. Bolted the sucker on a boulder next to the trail. It was torn down. Signs do only so good.
The term people want is involuntary manslaughter
"unintentional killing that results from recklessness"
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/manslaughter_involuntary.html
If convicted, should he put in jail? I would probably say no but community service would be resonable as from all appearances he is fully cooperating and is remorseful for what happened. He just did something really stupid - which is something we all have done at one time or an other in our lives.
As Ron says "The courts will duly slap his wrists, but that will grease the skids for the victim's family to recover damages in civil court."
I should add one other to this - if I as a climber trundled a rock for fun and it killed someone I am sure that I would held to a higher standard than a non climber. Why? because as I climber I "should" know better - even if I said I took all the necessary precautions like looking, yelling, etc. The non climber can simply say I did not think anyone would be there. This is the same thing that happens to climbers who get cited for "knowing putting themselves into harms way" and get rescued cause they did not have enough clothing versus some stupid turon who goes hiking in the snow in blue jeans and a cotton sweat shirt and also gets rescued.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Aug 16, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
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Throwing a rock of a mountain or clifftop when you can't see where the rock might hit is no different from shooting a rifle into the air when you can't see what the bullet might hit. It is reckless.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Aug 16, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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Involuntary manslaughter *is* the term that I was looking for. If there is one word that describes this situation other than tragic, it is reckless.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Aug 16, 2007 - 03:58pm PT
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There are lots of trails and roads under cliffs. You can't always see them from the top. Throwing rocks of cliffs endangers everyone.
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reddirt
climber
subarwu
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:05pm PT
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7279 postings is quite a remarkable number...
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:10pm PT
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It sickens and saddens me to hear of this incident. I grieve for the families who must be in extreme pain. Ron answered it for me as far as charges. You won't bring back the dead with your rage and anger.
I climb at an area where Russian as#@&%es regularly throw beer bottles off the cliff and also smash them on top. I have been toproping and had glass shower me. My screams of rage garnered me an accented apology and they beat a hasty retreat, I did not even see then that time, but I have confronted them twice about this very thing, and called the poice once where the police caught them in the act and arrested 3 of them.
I have tried to explain that a family may wind up walking at the base and they may kill a little 4 year old girl if she was hit on the head by a beer bottle. Still it continues, and I a close to inflicting violence next time I catch em out there.
I have solo-led routes here before but wont do so any more.
All thats left at the end of the day for me is the sadness.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
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LEB,
try reading other folks stuff sometimes,
DMT said, "We hollered for a couple of minutes and then we sent that thing. "
That is why I called you an ignorant bitch.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:18pm PT
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BTW LEB,
thanks for telling a bunch of climbers what is and what is not reasonable about the mountains. i am gueesing that if you took 10 of us posting on here you would reach a cumulative average of a couple hundred years of experience dealing with this all over the friggin country.
but i sure am glad that you know all about it and keep us straight.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:32pm PT
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well LEB, if you are angry and pissed off, may i suggest that you go climb something. if that is only partially satisfying find a lonely place in the mountains and trundle some rocks. just make sure you holler to warn others first.
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
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Babes in the woods.
Boy! Are you guys being had. LOL!
Better quit before you grind your teeth to the gums.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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We climb regularly at Cathedral Ledge in No. Conway. This is a 600' granite cliff with a "tourist overlook" at the top. The tourists drive to the top to enjoy the view. The fenced in area where they stand has signs that clearly state not to throw rocks because climbers are below. Doesn't matter to some folks. Just the other night we were climbing a route below the outlook and rocks were thrown several times. We yell up, they throw again, we yell again. Sucks.
Well charge those f*#kers. No doubt about it. But there's a world of difference between unknowingly throwing some rocks off a cliff where it never occurred to you that there might be someone below you, and ignoring a posted sing that there *are* people below you. The second is certainly negligent, and could possibly be considered assault. The first is just being kind of dim.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:47pm PT
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GO
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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LEB, i would never be angry with an internet troll. i may have a sore lip, but i only bite the barbless ones.
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Spencer Adkisson
Mountain climber
Reno, NV
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Aug 16, 2007 - 05:10pm PT
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First of all, who gives a flying fu#k how big a 15-20lb rock is. Show some respect for the departed and for the bereaved.
Secondly, most of us have trundled a rock at some point. Maybe on purpose just to watch it fall, maybe on accident, and then said, "woah, cool. Check that out!".
Many of us have nearly been killed my some dolt trundling rocks, oblivious to the people climbing below. The thrower will live with a lifetime of guilt and shame. That's pretty damn heavy to carry around with you every day. As I said before..."The things we wish we could take back.". Ultimately, the family will decide what they feel is appropriate. I just hope they find peace after all this. But, it will never really be over for them.
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John Moosie
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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Lois, for some reason I love to catch you out. You wrote,
"My guess is that often when people throw rocks, they do not have a "good heart." Often, in fact, they have a rather bad heart in that they are taking glee in causing misery to another. The climbers here who relayed close calls are speaking to that point. As they see it, it is "fun" to make another squirm or suffer although probably they are not trying to kill the victims. Likely a few of them are actually stupid enough not to realize that the "squirming and suffering" just could just equate to death to the victim and a manslaughter/murder indictment for them. There are some truly stupid people running around."
..................................................................................
You then go on to write, ( I put in the bold)
"I don't know why this 23 year old threw a rock off a cliff. Was he just stupid and ignorant of the laws of physics? Was he trying to have "fun" and harrass someone but, in fact, did not mean to go so far as to kill them. Does his idea of having generic "fun" include making another suffer? This is what I mean about "heart." Is he "remorseful" because he or his family retained an attorney and he was so advised to show said remorse?"
...............................................................
Funny thing is though, you are the one who originally linked this article.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5674389,00.html
I point you to this from the article
But he said that judging from a sheriff's investigation, the man hadn't known that people were climbing below him
hahahahahaha.....good grief Lois. You don't even read the links YOU post.
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John Moosie
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 05:31pm PT
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Yes Lois, a man is dead and you use this thread to school someone on how to attack people and you also try to lead a lynch mob. It looks like I have once again sunk to your level.
My apologies to those who lost a loved one.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Aug 16, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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Look, it sounds like an accident.
I know we all get our rocks off opining large about this and everything else, but the fact is, a guy got killed.
My guess is, the rock-thrower feels unbelievably horrible, and the guilt alone is enough punishment - having to live with the knowledge that one careless moment ended the most valuable of things for another person.
Let's (you, I and the authorities) leave him - and this poor, poor deceased equine behind and offer the family of the climber our consolations for a tragic accidental loss.
I don't know the climber, but my guess is that he'd say to do the same and enjoy life while you have it, rather than bicker endlessly over the parsing of a few words.
-Aaron
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John Moosie
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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This is what I should have written instead of what I wrote above.
I have done plenty of stupid and ignorant things. Thrown rocks, driven too fast. Gotten into fights. Said mean things. Lots and lots of ignorant things that could have led to someone getting hurt. Thankfully I haven't hurt someone physically and hopefully I have learned to be more aware.
I prefer to operate by the notion that if I had done something stupid and it did hurt someone, what would I hope for. In this case I would hope for leniency. I doubt the guy threw the rock to purposely hurt someone, especially if he didn't know anyone was there. In this case what leniency looks like, I don't know. It depends in part on how remorseful this guy is.
Continuing education is the only way to stop future events like this. Maybe this person could do a public service by speaking in schools. Its difficult to say without meeting the person. This is a great loss. I didn't know Pete but I wish that I had. He sounds like he was a truly steller individual. The kind of person the world needs more of.
I send my prayers to the family of Pete and to the young man who threw the rock.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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Social Awareness. teching LEB that one ought to be fun.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 06:21pm PT
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But LEB, if you leave SuperTopo will your master sock puppet still post under his other avatars?! Seems unfair to tease us like this, although I for one would welcome your departure. I agree, it does not 'feel' right having your inane posts clutter up the board. Have you noticed that, whenever you post, you are quickly at odds with others?
I suspect 'roid rage is to blame.
Matt, I need that definition of LEBIFICATION from the other thread.
Buh bye!
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 06:24pm PT
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If you did't have LEB to gang up and rage against, you would have to invent her.
Locker/Woody edit...
"Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you've got till it's gone. Pave paradise and put in a parking lot"
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Aug 16, 2007 - 06:26pm PT
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Ouch, what are you saying?
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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If you drive her away, it will be as in that TV message.
"If you can't live with the noise, imagine living with the silence".
As the old Polish Philosopher, Pastoral Apocalypse said,
"When the ass brays at dawn, divide the cabbage by three"
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:20pm PT
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i get the ass part, but not the cabbage....
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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involuntary manslaughter is probably what folks are looking for here.
manslaughter: n. the unlawful killing of another person without premeditation or so-called "malice aforethought" (an evil intent prior to the killing). It is distinguished from murder (which brings greater penalties) by lack of any prior intention to kill anyone or create a deadly situation. There are two levels of manslaughter: voluntary and involuntary. Voluntary manslaughter includes killing in heat of passion or while committing a felony. Involuntary manslaughter occurs when a death is caused by a violation of a non-felony, such as reckless driving.
negligent homicide would be if someone left their 2-year-old next to the pool and went inside to take a nap.
Certainly a horrible situation for all involved, including the young person who tossed the rock. But I think it would set a bad precedent if the guy got let off (assuming the family chose to press charges to begin with, if that is even their choice). The reason I think this is I believe that people are ultimately responsible for their actions.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:36pm PT
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deleted per request
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2007 - 08:00pm PT
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a bit more data from the other thread
"Pete was doing a new route near Lander in Leg Lake Cirque. He had completed a lead and was anchored about 800 feet up the wall. His partner had just arrived at the belay. The rock was thrown or pushed off by a hiker from the summit plateau 300 feet above. The thrower looked over the edge, saw it hit Pete, then dialed 911. The rock hit the back of Pete’s helmet covered head. He must have died instantly. I don’t know much about the thrower: I think he is from Casper, a veteran of two tours in Iraq."
FWIW
Karl
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 08:01pm PT
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"out of whack.... "
How can you tell if something is "In Whack"? Does it make a different whacking sound?
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 16, 2007 - 08:35pm PT
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The "unlawful" part is the sticking point. So far as I know, there's no law about tossing a rock off a cliff if you don't have any reason to think there's anyone below you. I guess it would be up to a jury to decide if it's the responsibility of the thrower to make sure of that or if it's a fair assumption.
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 08:48pm PT
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It will probably play out in civil court.
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Ouch!
climber
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Aug 16, 2007 - 11:35pm PT
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 18, 2007 - 10:50am PT
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Prosicuting the trundeler does not bring the victim back to life and may just cause the family more anguish but as climbers we need this guy to do at least some jail time. If he gets off scott free it sets a president that climbers are crazy and if you kill one with a rock its ok as they were risking their life anyways... pretty scary thought. Lots of places here in the east where a thrown rock can kill a climber. We need this guy to be prosicuted. Our Lives depend on it.....
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Spencer Adkisson
Mountain climber
Reno, NV
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Aug 18, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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I just got back from kayaking on Lake Tahoe with my better half. Eventually, we stopped off near some big boulders in the water to have a little dip. Pretty ideal. The next thing I know, there are splashes, and plumes of water every so often around us. We both look at eachother as if to say, WTF? Then I see it: some little bastard way up on the top of the hill, throwing rocks down into the lake where we are swimming!
I couldn't believe my eyes. I yelled up to him, "Hey, we're down here! Quit throwing rocks! What are you trying to do, kill us!?!
The kids mom quickly got on his case, "what are you doing, don't you see the people down there, why are you throwing rocks, knock it off, you could kill someone that way, don't you even think?"
Well, no blood-no foul, but this terrible accident with Pete Absolon has been on my mind lately, and I was just dumbfounded that something like that should (nearly) happen again. Somewhere along the line there is a disconnect between the thought "throw rock, watch gravity do its thing, big splash", and "no, be smart, maybe people down there, could hurt someone".
I don't have any answers here, but jeez louise! isn't natural rockfall dangerous enough? Now we have to dodge thrown rocks? I might just start dressing like a hockey goalie everywhere I go. I mean...you never know when someone is going to hurl something at you...
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