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maratumba
Sport climber
la ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 25, 2012 - 09:24am PT
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There is a very heated debate going on in my local climbing area (outside US) about a published guide book. The author of the guidebook is a person who has been climbing in the area for many years and has opened many routes. But there are other people who opened more routes than him and now they say that he didn't have the right to publish such a guidebook.
They say that the right to publish the guidebook for an area and hence make money out of it is with the people who opened most of the routes so that they can compensate the costs of bolting etc.
Other people say that whoever wants to write a guide book about an area has a right to do so as all the routes are accessible to everyone.
Even though it is probably legally clear that anyone can write his/her own guidebook (as long as there is no plagiarism) about an area, the debate has gone out of proportions. The outdoor shops are being pressured to not to sell the said guidebook and the author is under heavy fire for stealing someone else's property rights.
In order to have an idea about how the practice is in other places, I thought I should ask SuperTopo. What's your opinion and experiences in this matter?
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 25, 2012 - 09:47am PT
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Anyone has the right to publish a guide book. Obviously the best person to write the book, would be the person who has the most knowledge of the area.
The idea that guide book profits should be a way of compensation for putting up routes is wrong. People have different reasons for wanting to put up new routes, but money shouldn't be a motivation.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jul 25, 2012 - 09:58am PT
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It's about honor or about money, it can't be both.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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maratumba
Sport climber
la ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 25, 2012 - 06:24am PT
There is a very heated debate going on in my local climbing area (outside US)
Hmmm. Interesting.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:05am PT
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The simple answer is that anyone has the right to publish it.
Ideally the most knowledgeable person person with the most first-hand route information is the author but that isn't always the case. People who put up lots of routes and are great climbers are not always good organizers or writers with the time to create a guide. Ideally there will be cooperation and a free flow of information between all the locals to create an accurate guidebook that everyone can use and enjoy.
Publishing a guideboook isn't cheap or easy. It takes 1000's of hours of labor, research and $$$. There is no "stealing" information when a guide is created from scratch. Anyone who thinks they are going to make a ton of money is deluding themselves so it should never be a motivation.
The property rights to a guide belong to the author so that argument that the guys who create the routes own it is totally bizarre to me. Pressuring the climb shops not to sell it is petty and immature IMO.
Those "people" who think they have more "right" are always free to shell out the time and dough and publish their own guide. There are dozens of guides to some areas so what's the big deal?
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briham89
Big Wall climber
los gatos. ca
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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If the argument is really about money, then this is laughable. Most guide book writers end up with lots of debt from the extreme cost of publishing the book. Also, he did the work and did it first. Were the others guys already making a book?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:22am PT
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in joshua tree there are many competing guidebook "traditions". yosemite also seems to have gone that route--supertopo itself began as a competing guidebook tradition. sleepier climbing venues seem content to let one person step forward and do all the work, not necessarily the best climber or the most prolific route developer. putting out a guidebook involves a lot of clerical work and the ability to write. it isn't for everyone, and rewards are uncertain.
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maratumba
Sport climber
la ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2012 - 10:26am PT
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Unfortunately this is not a troll. This guide is covering a large region and contains areas both which have individual guidebooks and areas that are too small to have one.
The people in the opposing camp published some of those guide books. Now they are concerned that they won't be making as much money.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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if you want to make some quick money, publish a sport climber's cheat sheet to joshua tree and hawk it up and down the street when the cars back up at the entrance station.
"extra! extra! read all about it! the climbs with short-spaced bolts they're trying to keep quiet! one thin twenty-dollar bill and you won't be riding the meat wagon today!"
for an added touch, find an old mimeograph machine.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:53am PT
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They say that the right to publish the guidebook for an area and hence make money out of it is with the people who opened most of the routes so that they can compensate the costs of bolting etc.
Sorry.. it's been 30 minutes and I'm still chuckling over that statement^^^. Money from a guide will never compensate anyone for the time and investment involved in putting up routes.
So the reality is that these guys just have their panties in a bunch over a little competition for their already-existing mini-guides? It's a free-market world. There will always be a market for specific-region guides. The hard-core loyalists will buy from whom they like.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Childish crap gotten out of hand it seems. Usually this stuff is easy enough to get a community consensus and the new author finds ways to respect folks and get the job done. But some communities just cant get there. In the end the new author does have the right to do as he pleases and just deal with it if he has too and it is worth it for him.
Outdoor shops are being pressured not to carry the new book?
If it is the authors of the other Guides that might actually be illegal right there.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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c'mon, maratumba, where is this?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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It's easy for locals to think that they have some sort of ownership of a climbing area. If it's on public lands, they don't.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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Thou shalt not profit from guidebook writing.
What if the book in question is for an area that's private property? (actual event)
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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Very little net profit is gained from guidebook authoring. The controversy is silly; it's all a matter of who the hell actually gets around to doing a guide versus any imagined "rights". Many would-be guide authors, so few in print!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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authorship opens a different realm from earning a weekly paycheck. i've known a few people who get into this who reap rewards far into the future, not great rewards, but income which is there nonetheless. it enriches their lives in other ways as well. authorship is essentially a vocation. you are "called" to it, by god, or some little devil in the back of your head.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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"Very little net profit is gained from guidebook authoring. The controversy is silly; it's all a matter of who the hell actually gets around to doing a guide versus any imagined "rights"."
Have to agree with that. I put out the Cosumnes River/Mosquito Bridge and the Crystal Basin guides until 1990 and really never retired on the proceeds, that's for sure. It's more a masochistic labor of love, maybe, especially when some pin head starts to argue with you along the lines of "well, that's not 10c, it's a 9+..." etc., etc. I mean, if you can't do the climb, it's not the guidebooks fault, buddy.
Whoever wants to put out the work should do it. Recognition of the first ascentors should be an essential point. When Will Cottrell took over the Cosumnes/Mosquito guide after we'd moved to WY and were out of the Placerville loop, he actually asked me if it was okay to take it over and he recognized everybody's contributions in the past. I think those are civilized ways to deal with the multiple personalities problem.
The first red Tahoe guide in the 70s with Robbins' preface was published by, I believe, Sumner, Crawford, Smith and somebody else. They didn't seem to have a problem with multiple authorship, but then I think they knew realistically that there is no money in guides so why get heated about nothing.
If somebody has a problem with it, then I'd say they have an awfully awkward and painful ego to deal with and need to take a long long hike.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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Tony Bird: c'mon, maratumba, where is this?
Immature juvinile backfigthing over route ownership.. if this isn't in California...???
Actually.. I too would like to know where this mythical land where one can actually make money off guidebooks is. LOL.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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It's my feeling that "Guide Books" should be published online and "open sourced," a la Mountain Project.
True, it's good to have a hard copy when at the climbing areas, and folks can publish and sell books, or climbers can print from the web. But the main storage for route info shouldn't be in the hands of guide-book authors.
I've "opened" a few routes, and once the belays are in (or I've circulated route info), the route is in the public domain. I don't expect much, other than to be thought of as a God, for opening the route(s).
That authors hoard route info, until they can publish a book, I find unconscionable. For example, the Yosemite guide book is almost 20 years old, and there have been tons of routes put up in that time-span. Folks who have opened new routes are told to send the info to the existing guidebook author, who then sits on the info until they feel good and ready to release it. That, to me, is a crime. Those who open the routes want folks to know about them (otherwise they wouldn't send in info).
The facts about a route cannot be copyrighted. Opinions about grades, quality, descriptions, and so forth, those words can be copyrighted.
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