Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 47 of total 47 in this topic |
maratumba
Sport climber
la ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 25, 2012 - 09:24am PT
|
There is a very heated debate going on in my local climbing area (outside US) about a published guide book. The author of the guidebook is a person who has been climbing in the area for many years and has opened many routes. But there are other people who opened more routes than him and now they say that he didn't have the right to publish such a guidebook.
They say that the right to publish the guidebook for an area and hence make money out of it is with the people who opened most of the routes so that they can compensate the costs of bolting etc.
Other people say that whoever wants to write a guide book about an area has a right to do so as all the routes are accessible to everyone.
Even though it is probably legally clear that anyone can write his/her own guidebook (as long as there is no plagiarism) about an area, the debate has gone out of proportions. The outdoor shops are being pressured to not to sell the said guidebook and the author is under heavy fire for stealing someone else's property rights.
In order to have an idea about how the practice is in other places, I thought I should ask SuperTopo. What's your opinion and experiences in this matter?
|
|
rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 09:47am PT
|
Anyone has the right to publish a guide book. Obviously the best person to write the book, would be the person who has the most knowledge of the area.
The idea that guide book profits should be a way of compensation for putting up routes is wrong. People have different reasons for wanting to put up new routes, but money shouldn't be a motivation.
|
|
Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 09:58am PT
|
It's about honor or about money, it can't be both.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:01am PT
|
maratumba
Sport climber
la ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 25, 2012 - 06:24am PT
There is a very heated debate going on in my local climbing area (outside US)
Hmmm. Interesting.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:05am PT
|
The simple answer is that anyone has the right to publish it.
Ideally the most knowledgeable person person with the most first-hand route information is the author but that isn't always the case. People who put up lots of routes and are great climbers are not always good organizers or writers with the time to create a guide. Ideally there will be cooperation and a free flow of information between all the locals to create an accurate guidebook that everyone can use and enjoy.
Publishing a guideboook isn't cheap or easy. It takes 1000's of hours of labor, research and $$$. There is no "stealing" information when a guide is created from scratch. Anyone who thinks they are going to make a ton of money is deluding themselves so it should never be a motivation.
The property rights to a guide belong to the author so that argument that the guys who create the routes own it is totally bizarre to me. Pressuring the climb shops not to sell it is petty and immature IMO.
Those "people" who think they have more "right" are always free to shell out the time and dough and publish their own guide. There are dozens of guides to some areas so what's the big deal?
|
|
briham89
Big Wall climber
los gatos. ca
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:09am PT
|
If the argument is really about money, then this is laughable. Most guide book writers end up with lots of debt from the extreme cost of publishing the book. Also, he did the work and did it first. Were the others guys already making a book?
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:22am PT
|
in joshua tree there are many competing guidebook "traditions". yosemite also seems to have gone that route--supertopo itself began as a competing guidebook tradition. sleepier climbing venues seem content to let one person step forward and do all the work, not necessarily the best climber or the most prolific route developer. putting out a guidebook involves a lot of clerical work and the ability to write. it isn't for everyone, and rewards are uncertain.
|
|
maratumba
Sport climber
la ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2012 - 10:26am PT
|
Unfortunately this is not a troll. This guide is covering a large region and contains areas both which have individual guidebooks and areas that are too small to have one.
The people in the opposing camp published some of those guide books. Now they are concerned that they won't be making as much money.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:41am PT
|
if you want to make some quick money, publish a sport climber's cheat sheet to joshua tree and hawk it up and down the street when the cars back up at the entrance station.
"extra! extra! read all about it! the climbs with short-spaced bolts they're trying to keep quiet! one thin twenty-dollar bill and you won't be riding the meat wagon today!"
for an added touch, find an old mimeograph machine.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:53am PT
|
They say that the right to publish the guidebook for an area and hence make money out of it is with the people who opened most of the routes so that they can compensate the costs of bolting etc.
Sorry.. it's been 30 minutes and I'm still chuckling over that statement^^^. Money from a guide will never compensate anyone for the time and investment involved in putting up routes.
So the reality is that these guys just have their panties in a bunch over a little competition for their already-existing mini-guides? It's a free-market world. There will always be a market for specific-region guides. The hard-core loyalists will buy from whom they like.
|
|
ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:57am PT
|
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:58am PT
|
Childish crap gotten out of hand it seems. Usually this stuff is easy enough to get a community consensus and the new author finds ways to respect folks and get the job done. But some communities just cant get there. In the end the new author does have the right to do as he pleases and just deal with it if he has too and it is worth it for him.
Outdoor shops are being pressured not to carry the new book?
If it is the authors of the other Guides that might actually be illegal right there.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:00am PT
|
c'mon, maratumba, where is this?
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:04am PT
|
It's easy for locals to think that they have some sort of ownership of a climbing area. If it's on public lands, they don't.
|
|
Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:08am PT
|
Thou shalt not profit from guidebook writing.
What if the book in question is for an area that's private property? (actual event)
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:11am PT
|
Very little net profit is gained from guidebook authoring. The controversy is silly; it's all a matter of who the hell actually gets around to doing a guide versus any imagined "rights". Many would-be guide authors, so few in print!
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:34am PT
|
authorship opens a different realm from earning a weekly paycheck. i've known a few people who get into this who reap rewards far into the future, not great rewards, but income which is there nonetheless. it enriches their lives in other ways as well. authorship is essentially a vocation. you are "called" to it, by god, or some little devil in the back of your head.
|
|
Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:38am PT
|
"Very little net profit is gained from guidebook authoring. The controversy is silly; it's all a matter of who the hell actually gets around to doing a guide versus any imagined "rights"."
Have to agree with that. I put out the Cosumnes River/Mosquito Bridge and the Crystal Basin guides until 1990 and really never retired on the proceeds, that's for sure. It's more a masochistic labor of love, maybe, especially when some pin head starts to argue with you along the lines of "well, that's not 10c, it's a 9+..." etc., etc. I mean, if you can't do the climb, it's not the guidebooks fault, buddy.
Whoever wants to put out the work should do it. Recognition of the first ascentors should be an essential point. When Will Cottrell took over the Cosumnes/Mosquito guide after we'd moved to WY and were out of the Placerville loop, he actually asked me if it was okay to take it over and he recognized everybody's contributions in the past. I think those are civilized ways to deal with the multiple personalities problem.
The first red Tahoe guide in the 70s with Robbins' preface was published by, I believe, Sumner, Crawford, Smith and somebody else. They didn't seem to have a problem with multiple authorship, but then I think they knew realistically that there is no money in guides so why get heated about nothing.
If somebody has a problem with it, then I'd say they have an awfully awkward and painful ego to deal with and need to take a long long hike.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
|
Tony Bird: c'mon, maratumba, where is this?
Immature juvinile backfigthing over route ownership.. if this isn't in California...???
Actually.. I too would like to know where this mythical land where one can actually make money off guidebooks is. LOL.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
|
It's my feeling that "Guide Books" should be published online and "open sourced," a la Mountain Project.
True, it's good to have a hard copy when at the climbing areas, and folks can publish and sell books, or climbers can print from the web. But the main storage for route info shouldn't be in the hands of guide-book authors.
I've "opened" a few routes, and once the belays are in (or I've circulated route info), the route is in the public domain. I don't expect much, other than to be thought of as a God, for opening the route(s).
That authors hoard route info, until they can publish a book, I find unconscionable. For example, the Yosemite guide book is almost 20 years old, and there have been tons of routes put up in that time-span. Folks who have opened new routes are told to send the info to the existing guidebook author, who then sits on the info until they feel good and ready to release it. That, to me, is a crime. Those who open the routes want folks to know about them (otherwise they wouldn't send in info).
The facts about a route cannot be copyrighted. Opinions about grades, quality, descriptions, and so forth, those words can be copyrighted.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
|
"...publish the guidebook for an area and hence make money out of it..."
Minimum wage is what now? Like eight or ten bucks an hour? You could make a hell of a lot more money pumping gas in Oregon.
|
|
jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
|
This is always a hot topic in Europe, especially France. There have been raging arguments on the internet that have spilled over on to the crags. You only have to go to St Leger du Ventoux and look at the notices that spring up at the bottom of some of the crags.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
|
Why is that Dingus? Is it worse having many contribute to route descriptions versus having just one?
I've seen guide book authors take liberties with descriptions, grades, quality ratings, and their word, once printed, is gospel.
Open-source has the advantage that folks can comment on what others print. Certainly there's room for abuse, but printed guides aren't immune from this.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
|
I seem to recall Mick Ryan posting up about the British guidebook scene and how there some territoriality to it. Mick, did I miss read?
In the U.S. yeah, open up and people will use the information you've collected to further their own publications. We stand on the shoulders of those that go before us.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
|
We in the US assume the right to freedom of the press exists everywhere. It does not. For us, the only limit on the "right" to publish comes from copyright and plagiarism. Perhaps some other countries would place limits where the US does not.
It sounds like this argument is really just a classic case of someone trying to avoid competition.
I do hope that at least some people really can make money publishing guides (e.g. ST, for one), because I find them useful and will gladly pay for someone else to do the work, but in the current state of American climbing, you're more likely to make money picking fruit than writing guidebooks.
John
|
|
BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
|
Screw them, anyone has just as much right to make a book as much as anyone else, thats good and bad both. Any of the bitching parties could have made one, theyre just butthurt. Anyone will tell you, making a guidebook will get you both loved and hated, be ready. Whoever can make the best one is who should make it.
And there isnt much money in the guidebook racket. Anyone who has made them will attest to that. Ive never made one, and I already know that.
People will always be butthurt and bitching about any new guidebook it seems. Yours truly included to an extent. Necessary evil.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
|
Islamic law, which has a very old tradition, never recognized any kind of intellectual property law. In their view, these laws impede the free flow of knowledge and are bad for society.
Freedom of speech is a constitutional law concept that comes into play when the government denies your rights, but not to the conduct of private parties. The US does have liberal freedom of speech laws, compared for example to the UK, which places a much higher value on privacy rights. Defamation lawsuits are far more common there.
|
|
Jorroh
climber
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
|
Guidebooks can make money given the right plan. However, if you're writing a guidebook purely to make money, then you'll never come up with the energy to do it properly....that takes a bit of passion.
Prior to my Red Rocks book, two books had been published in the previous 5 years, but since I felt that neither really did the area justice, I went ahead with my own project. If the previous books had nailed it , then I would probably have shelved my project. The onus is really on the writer to do the best possible job they can, both as a service to the community and to give their project some longevity.
Online databases are something i've thought a lot about. I've come to the conclusion that they work best (as mountain project states) as compliments to guidebooks rather than replacements. The consensus format of mountain project is both a strength and weakness. I think there's a real place for the standardization that a single person (or small group) brings to the grading, styles of description, star ratings, general format & layout etc..
there's an amazing amount of information in a guidebook (I estimated that my recent North Conway book had close to 1 million data points) and one of the challenges is to make that huge amount of information easy to interpret...a good guidebook does that a lot better than MP.
If the author in the OP did a good job, then people will seek it out, he doesn't need climbing stores to sell his book, its easy enough (and a lot more profitable) to sell online.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
|
Disclosure: On fundamental grounds I personally preferred not using guidebooks as that made climbing more of an exploration. And when there is a guide that guide should provide support for those lands.
That said I put out an entirely photographic guide of Seneca Rocks in the middle 70's with the route names as the only text. Why? The approach routes to the rocks were turning into six foot deep trenches in the scree and some means of focussing attention on them and generating some funding was badly needed. When it was done I personally absorbed all of the production costs and gave the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club all of the books and the task of administering the proceeds. Which it did supporting the trail building work for quite some time.
I agree authorship involves passion. But there can be many different priorities behind that passion. There needs, somewhere in that equation, to be passion for the land and the need to support it.
|
|
adventurous one
Trad climber
Truckee Ca.
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
|
Silver,
Just tear out the section on Donner and staple it together. You will have a completely comprehensive "mini guide" for Donner without having to spend so much. :) actually the economics of mini-guides, even at higher "total prices" pan out even worse than the comprehensive guides due to set up costs for commercial printers, shipping, etc. (assuming a profesional quality, color guidebook). And besides, your old arse needs the extra exercise hauling that brick to the base of the cliff. :);)
|
|
Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
portland, Maine
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
|
I wrote a guide book 20 years ago. The hardest part was finding the history and working with the land managers. Once I completed the book and found a printer, I gave the book away to the visitor’s center for fundraising. The only money that I asked for was the cost of printing $2.00 a book. I never copyrighted the book allowing anybody to print again.
|
|
Nate D
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
|
I've always liked your tribal thinking on the matter, Dingus.
And good idea, jstan.
|
|
Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
|
I like Dingus' position also. There are those who believe that guidebooks contribute to the degradation of climbing areas because availability of information will enable larger numbers of people to visit those areas. If printed guides cause this to happen, just think of the effect the worldwide web has on the availability of information.
I see a definite distinction between making information available to those with enough interest in an area to purchase a guidebook, and essentially spraying about an area - promoting it, so to speak - by posting the info to a website.
I'm sure I'm biased because I like books, but using a guidebook vs an open sourced website, provides a consistency of evaluation that reflects one person's view. With familiarity, the biases, preferences and perspectives of the author provide some clues as to the descriptions, ratings and evaluations of routes one might be considering. In other words, the personality (for better or worse) of the author is reflected in the comments and descriptions. This is a good thing.
The fact that multiple guidebooks exist for popular areas is a benefit to the climbing community, as it allows for multiple perpectives. Readers can choose their favorite.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
|
Onewhowalksonrocks
Way to go!
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
|
Where's KSolem?
BITD I did something like that...
 ec
|
|
Jorroh
climber
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
|
JStan
I think the point you raise about conservation relates much more to the climbing community and land managers as a whole, rather than guidebooks in particular.
I actually thought that in Red rocks my book might help with the big trail braiding problem, by more clearly delineating the approaches, but unfortunately in that regard I was dead wrong. I'm not sure if its something I can help fix, but I'm going to try in the next edition.
DMT, obviously whether you publish your own FA's or not is a personal decision. I do think that collecting FA information is one of the ways that an online database can really contribute, and though I don't post stuff myself, I don't think its necessarily fair to characterize it as spraying.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
|
Writing a good guide book is a Public Service.
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
|
Rather than ST campers lay out the prevailing views of Americans on guide books and who owns what, I think it would be more interesting to if maratumba would lay out how it works in his part of the world. My first guess is that maratumba is Spanish, but only because of the "la ca."
The second post is telling: This guide is covering a large region and contains areas both which have individual guidebooks and areas that are too small to have one.
The people in the opposing camp published some of those guide books. Now they are concerned that they won't be making as much money.
PS: I liked the opening of your climbing in Turkey video where you climb some ancient stone entrance way. Helen moved out long ago, don't you know? Don't they have rules about climbing antiquities?
|
|
The Call Of K2 Lou
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
|
With regards to the original question, if someone's got their panties in a twist because "they've opened more routes" (is this person six years old or something?), why don't they put up or shut up? Write a superior guidebook, and the other author will be forced to leave town in the middle of the night with his tail between his legs. After that, the money will roll right in. Jet skis and hookers await.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
|
Anyone can write a guide book.
There's no law saying you can't.
If you write and publish a sh!ty guide book no one will want.
Whom ever publishes the best guide book sells.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
Are people stupid ....... ????
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
|
Hey Werner,
How do you know so much about how guide books are written and published in Europe?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
|
Fuk Europe peons and write the guide,
I was talkin about USA not Europe peons.
Over there if you get arrested for writing guide book and it's against the law without permission it's stupid.
Just see .... :-)
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
|
No one. Maybe we should eliminate guidebooks
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
|
I've began to start taking up DMT's position as well.
For a long time I was pretty well known for adding detailed descriptions to almost every route I've climbed on a couple websites route databases.
My original intentions were to take a bit of the mystery out of the route to motivate others to actually get on the thing and to thin traffic in populated areas.
What I've found this does is only get people who are not ready for the route for whatever reason to jump on it, which almost always results in someone wanting to dumb the route down in some way.
Now, if anything I'll just put the name, F.A. info, general location, grade and pro. No need for all the Bla, Bla, Bla...
For my own routes I never post anything online. I prefer to spread that info by word of mouth. If you ask, I'm more than likely to share.
I do sometimes mark my routes in a unique way for anyone who just happens upon them. Usually, if you do actually happen upon an area where one of my routes are, you're probably the sort of adventurous type who might actually consider climbing it.
So I give a little teaser info which looks about something like this.
|
|
Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
|
Any one want to bring Canyon Tajo it's information "owner" Juan Maderita in on this? Comments?
|
|
bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
|
|
|
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
|
publish both.
that will solve the problem.
think of all the fun.
One will call the "direct" 5.10 a/b R (sandbag!!)
The other will call it 5.10- R/X (give away)
Then you'll have 2 locals bitchin' about how much work it was and how little they got paid.
But......they better not start complaining about the crowds trampling the shrubs.
the crowds they invited.
Maybe they could co-author the damn thing and split all the $$$$$$$
good times!
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
|
|
|
Jul 30, 2012 - 01:39am PT
|
owning a microsite where new route information is sometimes posted, I see this trend directly that Sal and DMT are talking about. Where in the late 90s hardly no one climbed there, now many climb along it's forested roads.
Consequently I remain conflicted, and perhaps that's good. Perhaps a site should be hard to read, hard to find info, be incomplete, always in a state of development of some sort, even outdated.
Yet, more times than I can tell you I have benefitted from a guidebook and website information. It made it possible to make the journey, to reach out to locals, etc.
It's a fine balance.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 47 of total 47 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!