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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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"...publish the guidebook for an area and hence make money out of it..."
Minimum wage is what now? Like eight or ten bucks an hour? You could make a hell of a lot more money pumping gas in Oregon.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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This is always a hot topic in Europe, especially France. There have been raging arguments on the internet that have spilled over on to the crags. You only have to go to St Leger du Ventoux and look at the notices that spring up at the bottom of some of the crags.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Why is that Dingus? Is it worse having many contribute to route descriptions versus having just one?
I've seen guide book authors take liberties with descriptions, grades, quality ratings, and their word, once printed, is gospel.
Open-source has the advantage that folks can comment on what others print. Certainly there's room for abuse, but printed guides aren't immune from this.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
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I seem to recall Mick Ryan posting up about the British guidebook scene and how there some territoriality to it. Mick, did I miss read?
In the U.S. yeah, open up and people will use the information you've collected to further their own publications. We stand on the shoulders of those that go before us.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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We in the US assume the right to freedom of the press exists everywhere. It does not. For us, the only limit on the "right" to publish comes from copyright and plagiarism. Perhaps some other countries would place limits where the US does not.
It sounds like this argument is really just a classic case of someone trying to avoid competition.
I do hope that at least some people really can make money publishing guides (e.g. ST, for one), because I find them useful and will gladly pay for someone else to do the work, but in the current state of American climbing, you're more likely to make money picking fruit than writing guidebooks.
John
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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Screw them, anyone has just as much right to make a book as much as anyone else, thats good and bad both. Any of the bitching parties could have made one, theyre just butthurt. Anyone will tell you, making a guidebook will get you both loved and hated, be ready. Whoever can make the best one is who should make it.
And there isnt much money in the guidebook racket. Anyone who has made them will attest to that. Ive never made one, and I already know that.
People will always be butthurt and bitching about any new guidebook it seems. Yours truly included to an extent. Necessary evil.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Islamic law, which has a very old tradition, never recognized any kind of intellectual property law. In their view, these laws impede the free flow of knowledge and are bad for society.
Freedom of speech is a constitutional law concept that comes into play when the government denies your rights, but not to the conduct of private parties. The US does have liberal freedom of speech laws, compared for example to the UK, which places a much higher value on privacy rights. Defamation lawsuits are far more common there.
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Jorroh
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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Guidebooks can make money given the right plan. However, if you're writing a guidebook purely to make money, then you'll never come up with the energy to do it properly....that takes a bit of passion.
Prior to my Red Rocks book, two books had been published in the previous 5 years, but since I felt that neither really did the area justice, I went ahead with my own project. If the previous books had nailed it , then I would probably have shelved my project. The onus is really on the writer to do the best possible job they can, both as a service to the community and to give their project some longevity.
Online databases are something i've thought a lot about. I've come to the conclusion that they work best (as mountain project states) as compliments to guidebooks rather than replacements. The consensus format of mountain project is both a strength and weakness. I think there's a real place for the standardization that a single person (or small group) brings to the grading, styles of description, star ratings, general format & layout etc..
there's an amazing amount of information in a guidebook (I estimated that my recent North Conway book had close to 1 million data points) and one of the challenges is to make that huge amount of information easy to interpret...a good guidebook does that a lot better than MP.
If the author in the OP did a good job, then people will seek it out, he doesn't need climbing stores to sell his book, its easy enough (and a lot more profitable) to sell online.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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Disclosure: On fundamental grounds I personally preferred not using guidebooks as that made climbing more of an exploration. And when there is a guide that guide should provide support for those lands.
That said I put out an entirely photographic guide of Seneca Rocks in the middle 70's with the route names as the only text. Why? The approach routes to the rocks were turning into six foot deep trenches in the scree and some means of focussing attention on them and generating some funding was badly needed. When it was done I personally absorbed all of the production costs and gave the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club all of the books and the task of administering the proceeds. Which it did supporting the trail building work for quite some time.
I agree authorship involves passion. But there can be many different priorities behind that passion. There needs, somewhere in that equation, to be passion for the land and the need to support it.
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adventurous one
Trad climber
Truckee Ca.
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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Silver,
Just tear out the section on Donner and staple it together. You will have a completely comprehensive "mini guide" for Donner without having to spend so much. :) actually the economics of mini-guides, even at higher "total prices" pan out even worse than the comprehensive guides due to set up costs for commercial printers, shipping, etc. (assuming a profesional quality, color guidebook). And besides, your old arse needs the extra exercise hauling that brick to the base of the cliff. :);)
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
portland, Maine
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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I wrote a guide book 20 years ago. The hardest part was finding the history and working with the land managers. Once I completed the book and found a printer, I gave the book away to the visitor’s center for fundraising. The only money that I asked for was the cost of printing $2.00 a book. I never copyrighted the book allowing anybody to print again.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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I've always liked your tribal thinking on the matter, Dingus.
And good idea, jstan.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Jul 25, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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I like Dingus' position also. There are those who believe that guidebooks contribute to the degradation of climbing areas because availability of information will enable larger numbers of people to visit those areas. If printed guides cause this to happen, just think of the effect the worldwide web has on the availability of information.
I see a definite distinction between making information available to those with enough interest in an area to purchase a guidebook, and essentially spraying about an area - promoting it, so to speak - by posting the info to a website.
I'm sure I'm biased because I like books, but using a guidebook vs an open sourced website, provides a consistency of evaluation that reflects one person's view. With familiarity, the biases, preferences and perspectives of the author provide some clues as to the descriptions, ratings and evaluations of routes one might be considering. In other words, the personality (for better or worse) of the author is reflected in the comments and descriptions. This is a good thing.
The fact that multiple guidebooks exist for popular areas is a benefit to the climbing community, as it allows for multiple perpectives. Readers can choose their favorite.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Way to go!
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ec
climber
ca
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Jul 25, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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Where's KSolem?
BITD I did something like that...
 ec
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Jorroh
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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JStan
I think the point you raise about conservation relates much more to the climbing community and land managers as a whole, rather than guidebooks in particular.
I actually thought that in Red rocks my book might help with the big trail braiding problem, by more clearly delineating the approaches, but unfortunately in that regard I was dead wrong. I'm not sure if its something I can help fix, but I'm going to try in the next edition.
DMT, obviously whether you publish your own FA's or not is a personal decision. I do think that collecting FA information is one of the ways that an online database can really contribute, and though I don't post stuff myself, I don't think its necessarily fair to characterize it as spraying.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jul 25, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
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Writing a good guide book is a Public Service.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jul 25, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
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Rather than ST campers lay out the prevailing views of Americans on guide books and who owns what, I think it would be more interesting to if maratumba would lay out how it works in his part of the world. My first guess is that maratumba is Spanish, but only because of the "la ca."
The second post is telling: This guide is covering a large region and contains areas both which have individual guidebooks and areas that are too small to have one.
The people in the opposing camp published some of those guide books. Now they are concerned that they won't be making as much money.
PS: I liked the opening of your climbing in Turkey video where you climb some ancient stone entrance way. Helen moved out long ago, don't you know? Don't they have rules about climbing antiquities?
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The Call Of K2 Lou
climber
Squamish
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Jul 25, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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With regards to the original question, if someone's got their panties in a twist because "they've opened more routes" (is this person six years old or something?), why don't they put up or shut up? Write a superior guidebook, and the other author will be forced to leave town in the middle of the night with his tail between his legs. After that, the money will roll right in. Jet skis and hookers await.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
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Anyone can write a guide book.
There's no law saying you can't.
If you write and publish a sh!ty guide book no one will want.
Whom ever publishes the best guide book sells.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
Are people stupid ....... ????
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