Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
May 25, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
BASE,Great test ,you know they wont engage in basic science.
They know so much more.



The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
Oh my, off with his head. Banish him forever. Forever!

Alien Planets Could Shed Light on Earth's Climate Future


Understanding climate change

Jim Green, NASA’s Planetary Science Division Director, said that one goal is to examine a variety of planetary bodies as a system, to see if there are trends or similarities. He also pointed out that from a planetary scientist’s perspective, climate change on our planet is not a new thing.

"Earth’s climate has done nothing but change," Green said.

Michael Meyer, lead scientist for the Mars Exploration Program at NASA Headquarters, also pointed out that we should never become complacent in our scientific understanding. For instance, he said that while climate models have not been able to make early Mars warm enough to sustain liquid water on its surface, the same can be true for models of the young Earth.
http://news.yahoo.com/alien-planets-could-shed-light-earths-climate-future-132541702.html


I remember you saying that God turned on all of the lights in our universe at the same time

Never wrote anything of the sorts. I do not believe in a creator. Rather that the Universe has no beginning nor end. It is the ultimate power. It is infinite and has not concept of time. Beginning nor end. Black and White Holes substantiate my belief. That is a whole different ball game on the other side of them holes. Holes that we humans have absolutely no idea what they hold on their other sides. None. Zero. Only some mathematical human perceptions that are constantly disputed amongst one an other of those experts math formula generators.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 25, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
That looks like a tephigram. Are you going to start talking about tornados?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
Science is human. Climate change on earth is not, regardless the "forcing".
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 25, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
shut up Chief. Where you going with the tephigram?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Kay: Weather (tephigram) is not Climate. Remember.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 25, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
I thought I told you to shut up

Anyway, I think that is a thephi, which plots the capacity for instability through a vertical slice of atmosphere. Its really cool as any para gliders will tell you. I don't know why a geologist would know much about them unless of course you live in Tornado alley
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
How bout you fk off. K.

Tephigram. Is weather forecasting, not climate. We all know how accurate that is. Weather forecasting that is. NOAA forecasted an above avg snow year in the Sierra back in Oct of 2012. Not. They forecasted a below normal snow fall year in Oct of 2010. Not. Record year. On and on. Oh the forecasting/models.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
May 25, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
This is a little off topic so please forgive me. For along time after the BP Gulf I'll spill I tried to find information on what happened to the many Sperm Whales in the area. There was a news blackout in regards to it. Apparently Americans have to use the Freedom of Information Act to see photos of dead whales;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/24/sperm-whale-dead-gulf-of-mexico-bp-oil-spill_n_2010221.

I remember reading an account about turtles, dolphins and whales being burned en masse. I'll bet we never see those photos. We are supposed to think one whale died and the rest 'migrated'. Yeah, they migrated to Hell before they went to Heaven.

This cover up could probably be attributed to the power of BP rather than NOAA. At the time, ALL reporting STOPPED after the discovery of the first dead whale.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
^^^^^^^^ And what are you using as your primary source of travel MacnavY?^^^^^


Oh the hypocrisy. Fill it up.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 25, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
well so what if it is? Shut the hell up for a change and lets hear what he's got to say
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
OK. For you K. I am off to watch the first day of practice at the IOMTT.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
May 25, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
^^^^^^^^ And what are you using as your primary source of travel MacnavY?^^^^^

Travel? Whether or not anyone uses gasoline is not the point of this thread. The point of the thread is what the effects of using gasoline and other fuels are. I'm sure I use far less oil than many do.

Apparently we can't talk about hundreds of Sperm Whale deaths, perhaps over 1,000, and the cover-up of same during the Gulf Oil Spill, because we use oil. Americans don't want to know the consequences of their actions, or rather, somebody else made that decision for them.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 25, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
Rick! I have always wanted to read the famous paper that was published in The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons! I always see these conservatives citing that paper in that journal, but have never had the link to the actual article. You really need to Google that publication up and read about its reputation. Wiki really has them by the nuts.

OK. I knew that I needed a little background on this article, because I see it used in different ways. I have never heard of the journal in any other place. I've never seen any article referenced from any article published by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.

The wiki page was VERY interesting. I've never seen a journal described in this way:

I wanted to check out the publication first, because there are good publications and there are lousy publications which have crappy reviewers. I know the best Geology publications and I'm sure that Ed knows the best Physics journals. It is a feather in your cap to be published in the major journals, which every person in the field will see and possibly refute. Papers get refuted all of the time, and this is just a part of the process. It sucks to be wrong, though. The physical sciences progress and things change, though.

OK. The AAPS is a sham organization which reportedly (by Wikipedia) holds different "positions." A journal shouldn't have positions, but scientists or even groups, such as the National Academy of Sciences can get together and publish positions. They can certainly be shot down, so they are fairly rare, such as their position that AGW is real. This is the National Academy of Scientists, not the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, who dabbles in HIV not causing AIDS, and other really pathetic positions, mainly political or religious in nature, rather than pure science. From what I learned in 15 minutes, the Journal isn't recognized anywhere as a peer reviewed journal. I haven't checked them all, but found this:

An editorial in Chemical & Engineering News described JPandS as a "purveyor of utter nonsense."[63] Investigative journalist Brian Deer wrote that the journal is the "house magazine of a right-wing American fringe group [AAPS]" and "is barely credible as an independent forum."[64

That is on their wiki page. Apparently this journal exists for the purpose of getting anti science positions a "peer reviewed" stamp of approval.

It gets even better:

After the petition appeared, the National Academy of Sciences said in a 1998 news release that "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal."[31] It also said "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." The NAS further noted that its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."[31]

Robinson responded in a 1998 article in Science, "I used the Proceedings as a model, but only to put the information in a format that scientists like to read, not to fool people into thinking it is from a journal."[30] A 2006 article the magazine Vanity Fair stated: "Today, Seitz admits that 'it was stupid' for the Oregon activists to copy the academy's format. Still, he doesn't understand why the academy felt compelled to disavow the petition, which he continues to cite as proof that it is "not true" there is a scientific consensus on global warming".[32]

I will read the article this evening.

Hey. I made it into the New Yorker today. Only the online version so far...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 25, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Base - I don't know where you were going with the tephi but it made me think of something I was wondering about. If the warming of the airmass is largely limited to the lower layer as I saw somewhere was suggested, then there will be an increased temperature gradient and thus greater instability potential, at least for that layer. This, to my mind anyway, suggests perhaps a greater likelyhood of strong thunderstorm cells and tornados. You being from Ohio maybe know how to answer this?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 25, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
It is a feather in your cap to be published in the major journals, which every person in the field will see and possibly refute. Papers get refuted all of the time, and this is just a part of the process. It sucks to be wrong, though. The physical sciences progress and things change, though.

Damn, BASE, that was worth checking in on this thread for. Cheers!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Whether or not anyone uses gasoline is not the point of this thread. The point of the thread is what the effects of using gasoline and other fuels is.

Perfect example of the hypocrisy ya'll enjoy participating in. Even when Chiloe takes them trips up north. All on fossil fuel driven vehicles. Yup.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 25, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
Perfect example of the hypocrisy ya'll enjoy participating in. Even when Chiloe takes them trips up north. All on fossil fuel driven vehicles. Yup.

Damn you're thick Chief. How is it that you are so incapable of grasping simple concepts? Of course we all drive around burning gas. That is an imperative of the society we live in. That other thread about all the various individual efforts one can do to decrease CO2 production is great but the real significant change can only occur through government policy forcing changes in industry. The fact that there are reasonably priced solar panels available is only because the technology development was ramped and scaled up. Electric vehicles? increase the demand with infrastructure and incentives in the cities and fund it through a carbon tax. Not possible for you out in the bush? So be it - structure it so you're exempt. Whats the point of pointing fingers at individuals for supposed transgressions when the only thing that ever works on this scale is developing new practical technology and making it available.

But anyway thats cart before the horse. Half of all americans still think the science is "bad".
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
May 25, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
Chef ,i just want to thank you for riding that bike and reducing your carbon footprint by 75% over driving that f-150.Even wide open 2 cylinders use far less fossil fuel.
Sorry i will probably ruin your gas mileage now ,because you dont want to be confused for someone thats interested in saving our planet,so you wont ride the bike,now.

Lake placid,new york, today 18"
Lake placid,new york, today 18"
Credit: protect our winters

Yeah nothing is changing.Thursday morning it was 91f.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
May 25, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Sorry i will probably ruin your gas mileage now ,because you dont want to be confused for someone thats interested in saving our planet,so you wont ride the bike,now.

Starting next week I will start to ride my other bike to work and back every other day. It uses my legs for power. 30 mile round trip. 3-4 times a week through the Fall. I do it for me. Not for the modern western civ masses that spend 90% of their day with their faces and fingers stuck to one of these.

That is what you are saving this world for. Got it.

BTW: I don't own one nor will I ever. Got an old flip phone that is in my tank bag and only used for emergencies. I do not even know how to text.

through government policy forcing changes in industry

You of course are speaking in terms of the current practices of the IRS. Got it. The Govt's got watch over us and make us, you all of us, do it.
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