Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
With that in mind Ron, one might consider buying stock in Morton Salt.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Funny Ron, that is EXACTLY what the business oriented Republican and (likely) climate change denier Norman H. Bangerter did in Utah. Great (moranic) minds think alike?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
Smart money now is chemical suits, then the salt thing!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Hey Ron,

DID you do the work on the nice Wolverine that is the Reno Cabela's?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Rick,
there have already been plenty of posts on this thread that show how scientists have calculated where the additional CO2 came from. It easy to find for yourself. I find it be a waste of time to repeat all that info, which you would surely ignore and just repeat your odd opinion that 300 + 100 = 303. The rest of us are clearly on a different math system.
And don't bother to say that human caused CO2 is small compared to the natural balanced system flows. Obviously we are talking about the additional CO2 emissions that are upsetting the balance and causing 400ppm.
Since you're the one who disputes established science, it is up to you to disprove the accepted fact that humans have caused the rise to 400ppm.

But anyway here's a bunch of links for you to ignore.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=2001
http://airs.jpl.nasa.gov/story_archive/Measuring_CO2_from_Space/History_CO2_Measurements/

http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/faq/faq.html

http://phys.org/news/2013-05-forest-soil-carbon-important-offset.html

http://phys.org/news/2013-05-worldwide-range-losses-urgent-action.html

https://www2.ucar.edu/climate/faq/carbon-dioxide-atmosphere-decreased-recently

https://www2.ucar.edu/climate/faq/how-much-carbon-dioxide-and-other-kinds-greenhouse-gas-already-atmosphere

http://scholarsandrogues.com/2007/07/23/anti-global-heating-claims-a-reasonably-thorough-debunking/#m3

http://news.discovery.com/earth/weather-extreme-events/volcanoes-co2-people-emissions-climate-110627.htm

http://www.skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions-intermediate.htm

http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-levels-airborne-fraction-increasing.htm

http://co2now.org/Current-CO2/CO2-Now/global-carbon-emissions.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11638-climate-myths-human-co2-emissions-are-too-tiny-to-matter.html

http://globalclimate.ucr.edu/resources.html

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/08/volcanic-vs-anthropogenic-co2/

https://www2.ucar.edu/atmosnews/opinion/9574/five-things-know-about-carbon-dioxide
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Ron and Chief, congratulations the boys seem to have totally thrown out the grist.org playbook and now resort to little but name calling, as you have noticed. Below is some non CAGW science that has probably been posted and supposedly refuted before, but is none the less fascinating since at least a lot of astrophysicists are looking for real explanations.

http://www.fel.duke.edu/~scafetta/pdf/scafetta-JSTP2.pdf
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
No Chief not the wolverine, i did work on some of the African pieces in there though.

edit: Hey Rick,, yes it seems frustrations are coming to a boil. lol!

Im fighting small bears right now, and they are winning...Working a flesher machine with a busted rib is "priceless" ..
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
Why, chiloe's ice cores of course Ed. You know that CO2 increases correlate with surface temperature rises maybe on a millenial scale but they have had that little problem of the CO2 lagging temp rises by an average of 800 years which by some accounts has been wittled down to 200 years. Now, at present day, the CO2 levels continue to rise but the temps have plateaued globally, with many regions cooling, hence the desperate search for the missing heat.By 300 k Earth temperature are you referring to the planet wide average including the core? I know you are not a climatologist but as physcisist you are surely up on the science and can seperate fact from fiction.

Is this a good start Bruce-getting him to clarify the question? Actually the Earth's average global surface temperature is 287 kelvin, which translates to 14c or 57.2f. Why in the hell would he offer the supposition that 3% anthropogenic contribution of a total atmospheric CO2 composition increase of 115 ppm would result in a 9c temperature increase. Is it even worth answering, i mean come on, why should i even dignify something of such stupidity.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
The CO2 lag is getting much smaller as we learn more about how air gets trapped in ice as found by this paper:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/339/6123/1060.abstract

We find no significant asynchrony between them, indicating that Antarctic temperature did not begin to rise hundreds of years before the concentration of atmospheric CO2, as has been suggested by earlier studies


More explanation here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ice-core-data-help-solve

The wide margin of error in the EPICA core data is due to the way air gets trapped in layers of ice. Snowpack becomes progressively denser from the surface down to around 100 meters, where it forms solid ice. Scientists use air trapped in the ice to determine the CO2 levels of past climates, whereas they use the ice itself to determine temperature. But because air diffuses rapidly through the ice pack, those air bubbles are younger than the ice surrounding them. This means that in places with little snowfall—like the Dome C ice core—the age difference between gas and ice can be thousands of years.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
A few more points, in addition to monolith's note about temperature and CO2 derived from ice cores:

 CO2 is well mixed in the atmosphere, so Antarctic ice core CO2 estimates should reasonably represent global levels. But temperature is not well mixed in the atmosphere, so Antarctic ice core temperature estimates reflect the temperature in that part of Antarctica. Which is a mix of global, regional and local temperature signals. Temperature estimates from geographically close cores are sometimes quite different. And temperature changes at other latitudes often move out of sync (and sometimes in opposite directions) on century to millennial time scales.

 CO2 is both a driver and a feedback with respect to warming. As water and land begin to warm for any reason (including solar, orbital, or tectonic drivers), atmospheric CO2 tends to rise which feeds back to cause further warming. This amplifies the relatively small forcing caused by orbital factors, for instance.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
No Chief not the wolverine, i did work on some of the African pieces in there though.

Very Impressive Ron. I thoroughly enjoy going in there and just walking around. The Pieces are amazingly well done. The detail is incredible. Nice.

Rick. The gist of this story is as you see, when called on, they stumble and dance. Then resort to the arrogant attitude that you have witnessed here. And these boys are supposedly "intellectuals" with doctorates. Wow. Class I tell ya.

C02 is lagging. Whether it's 300 or One year. It is lagging. Plain and simple. The false trumpet blower, Hansen has retired. His claims in front of Congress back in '88 NEVER materialized. He got his salary and now his retirement. With a life long lecture tour agenda blowing the tune that the sheep will listen to. Just like the false angel Gore. The tune that never materialized. The tune that will fade into the sunset within the next 5-7 years at best. Wait and see what does materializes in Sept when the AR5 comes out. The back peddling will be a thing to watch. The IPCC will in fact state that solar forcing plays a much bigger role in all this than first theorized. That the modeling has issues and is indeed fallible. Oh it's gonna be juicy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
my point is that 3% change in CO2 is more than enough to cause the change of temperature we're seeing,

If that is true, did we cause it? You people seem to guide your 'facts' in a certain direction, as I do too, but look at global history. Please.

Sometimes the galaxy dictates our weather maybe. The sun.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
the only folks asking about cause are fools

You don't get it. Questioning science promotes better science. Al Gore is the worst thin that happened to "Global Warming". He is a fool.

Now, "Climate Change" is all the rage. I don't dispute anything except the anthropomorphic crap. This is a cyclical Solar event. To deny that these occur on the same rates that AGW occurs is utter denial.

And the honest scientists know this!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
Now come on Ed, it can't be that hard to understand what i said. Let me repeat: The atmospheric concentration of CO2 has increased in the industrial age from 285ppm to today's 400ppm. That is an increase of 115ppm. Now of that 115ppm increase the portion attributable to anthropogenic causes is 3% of 115ppm or 4.45ppm. There is no way, in this universe at least, that a 4.45ppm increase of atmospheric CO2 can cause a 9c global temperature increase. Furthermore, the ice core record and other proxies show surface temperature increase first before atmospheric CO2 increase.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
http://coastlinesproject.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/why-sea-level-will-r...
http://coastlinesproject.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/why-sea-level-will-rise-for-centuries-ultimately-100-feet/
Credit: monolith

Note the green line jump on the last pixel column of the graph into the top graph.

Now, in a straight face, try to tell me that only 3% of that increase is due to man.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
do you have a reading comprehension problem? rick posited, oops, sorry for using that word, said that human contributions to the CO2 concentration of the the atmosphere was 3%, I took his number and did a rough calculation... very simple.

we caused it... rick says so...


Nice! the expected arrogance from a defender!

So I do not understand what "posited" means because you are so f*#king "smart" and no-one but a "scientist" is as f*#king smart as you. Nice!

We should all shut up and listen to you.

And if "rick" says something that is counter to logic, I should just listen to him.

This is how idiots elected someone like Obama. People don't think and just listen to words without thinking about what they mean.

I'm not as smart as you Ed, but I'm not a fool. I can smell bullshit a half-mile away.

You still fail to refute solar cycles and natural cycles in our Earth's weather.

I respect you, but please stop with the condescending bullsh#t. You know what I mean.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 14, 2013 - 12:01am PT
You don't get it. Questioning science promotes better science.

Nope, you don't get it. Asking intelligent, relevant, testable questions promotes better science. Spewing your moranic bullshit does not promote science, it pisses people off and confuses the issue. Even Ed seems irritated with the moranic bullshit you idiots are spewing, and Ed is one of the nicest, most civil people on this site.

"There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 14, 2013 - 12:16am PT
Nope, you don't get it. Asking intelligent, relevant, testable questions promotes better science. Spewing your moranic bullshit does not promote science, it pisses people off and confuses the issue. Even Ed seems irritated with the moranic bullshit you idiots are spewing, and Ed is one of the nicest, most civil people on this site.

Thanks for making my point. This is very relevant to current trust of our gov't to always do what is right. Ed will never admit he may be wrong, or his thesis is flawed. He can never be wrong, or will never admit that maybe the sun is responsible for global "flares" in warming.

This is why I lose respect for him as a scientist. But I leave room for me to be utterly wrong, despite what I've read and what appears logical to me as a person who is trained to find causation of problems. A trouble-shooter.

Everything I see points to people like Ed and Chiloe as being phonies. And I hate to state that, but everything I see says this is a natural phenomenon caused by a natural solar cycle.

Their utter denial of this is why I think they are disingenuous despite all the charts and graphs that have been twisted and distorted to fit a political/environmental agenda.

That's the way I see sh#t. Maybe I'm just stupid and Al Gore And Ed are smarter than me.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 14, 2013 - 12:25am PT
Maybe I'm just stupid and Al Gore And Ed are smarter than me.

I don't think so Blue.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 14, 2013 - 12:27am PT
Maybe I'm just stupid and Al Gore And Ed are smarter than me

Maybe?
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