Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Messages 7341 - 7360 of total 26432 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
dirtbag

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
Damn K man, too frickin funny!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Looks like The Chief got a little annoyed when I called him on his BS.

Oh contrar boy KMAN.

Better to have my finger in the lake. Than you having your head up Ed's ass and Dirt having his up yours and so on.


I have been laughing my ass off since the day you first started this fantasy thread. So has the consensus of the American Population. Your agenda is losing KMAN. Your freak eco shows curtain is coming down. Down.

Primary reason. The hypocrisy and insistent egomaniac assertions that your Whitecoat Scientist buddies can fix a problem that does not even "clearly" exist.

EDIT:

People play with you like they play with cats using a laser. They point it here, and see you run

Now that is just like you KMAN. Your fantasy perceptions are truly getting the best of you. I now believe that your parents fed you the same shrooms that Bruce's folks did. Fantasy world at best. Gulp!
dirtbag

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
Ron why don't you post your sources regarding owl habitat?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Chief you have stated you are proud of your ignorance. Good for you-- want a cookie?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
^No ignorance DIRTClaud. None what so ever. But it is obvious that your puking originators did not instruct you about how to prevent from getting that head of yours stuck in the ass of the sheep you are following over that cliff. BAAAAAAAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

You are truly such a following boy Dirtclaud. Such a lost boy.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
i believe ive already posted links Dirt. Yes spotted owls have now been seen using clear cuts for nesting and hunting. And in fact, most field biologists will tell you its the Grey/barred owls that are the biggest threat to the spotted owl. There may even be plans to "harvest other owls" down the road. The only true consensus about spots are that they prefer multi staged canopies.


Save the spotted owl, shoot a barred owl today! ??


Perhaps this is a good time for a reminder about a WHOLE INDUSTRY built upon the back of a creature that still hasnt been proven to exist. Which takes in $$$$ every year. Which has legions of followers. All of whom will give you the evidence yet that evidence is weak in and of itself.
They will run countless "studies" all over the globe including complex DNA sampling of unknown origin. Can you name this "cause" ??


But here is a "spot" discussion:


The late 1980s, we heard that logging was wiping out the owls, and to save them we had to gut one of the Pacific Northwest’s major industries. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service declared the spotted owl threatened in 1990, and in 1992 began putting its habitat off-limits to timber production — 5.3 million acres of it by 2008. In November, the Obama administration nearly doubled that total to 9.6 million acres.

By some estimates, more than 200 mills in the area have closed in the past two decades. Thousands of jobs disappeared. At least we saved the owl, right?

Well, no. Its numbers kept right on declining.

In the intervening years, we’ve learned that its difficulties primarily come from a bigger and tougher rival, the barred owl. Even Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe has noted “mounting evidence that competition from barred owls is a major factor in the spotted owl’s decline.”

So why do we keep making the same mistakes?

Heavy-handed federal regulation can put some of our communities on the endangered list, hurting local industries as well as government finances.

The reason is the avalanche of species under review for listing under the Endangered Species Act. Since 1973, the federal government has listed about 1,400 species as endangered or threatened. Just since 2007, though, more than 1,250 additional species have been petitioned for listing.

This surge is a result of “megapetitions,” requests by activists for reviews of hundreds of species at a time. The Fish and Wildlife Service can’t handle these requests within the statutory deadlines. In fact, clogging the process seems to be the intent of the activists. Delays lead to lawsuits — and settlements on the plaintiffs’ terms.






edit: so thats the "dirt" on that Dirt!;-) I was there, during those times. This is first hand stuff, not all googley. I was there for the closing of Pendolas mill in Garnderville, and i knew the reason why.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
There are lots of things we could do to decrease greenhouse gases.
There is no one simple solution.

Oil/Gasoline/natural gas are actually quite cheap so phasing in much higher fuel taxes is not even much of a burden.

Stop giving oil companies tax breaks.

Stop subsidizing fuel oil for heating.

Charge tolls on roads, also prevents sprawl.

More public transit and bike lanes.

Allow more infill housing.

Fund research into energy storage to allow more renewables.

Rebuild major hydro facilities to add stored pumped energy. There are many locations that already have an upper and lower storage reservoir.

In California, after the power crisis in 2001, they set up stepped rates for electric consumption, similar to water rates. If you only use the lower baseline amount, your rate per kw-hr is less. The builders associations here want to undo that, in order to subsidize their new construction, which mainly sprawls into hot inland areas that use lots of air condiitioning for their Mcmansions.

Just as homes here are required to have low flow toilets, and are forbidden to water lawns and wash cars in a drought, we might consider efficiency requirements such as upgraded insulation & improved windows on existing homes and apartments.

Decrease corruption and insiders on Public Utility Commissions.

Stop subsidizing energy intensive food, esp meat and dairy.

Continue increasing efficiency standards for appliances, lights, heaters, air cond, tv's.

Increase effiency at 2nd tier data centers (the wasteful ones).

More recycling, less packaging waste.

Stop subsidizing air travel.

Decrease coal burning.

Restrict natural gas leaks from pipes and drilling.

Carbon taxes are a lot more straightforward, workable, predictable, and effective than cap and trade.

Another issue as some have pointed out is that global population increases can still lead to increased emissions. One of the problems is religions that are still against birth control and family planning. This is an area for possible improvements. However, we don't want to get bogged down in a religious fray.

more ideas
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2013/03/which-major-cities-are-leaders-in-reducing-geenhouse-gas-emissions/


Each change will have be well thought out to minimize disruptions, but there will still be some. It needs to be remembered that there are costs and benefits to policy change and there are also big potential costs to climate change, per my next post.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
Splater, meet reality. Here's what one level of government is actually doing:

http://www.pe.com/local-news/san-bernardino-county/san-bernardino-county-headlines-index/20130612-san-bernardino-county-new-solar-projects-temporarily-banned.ece

There's not one county in America with more desert than San Bernardino County. We're the Saudi Arabia Of Sunshine, but just like all our other natural resources, the government creates unreasonable and unnecessary barriers to its use.

Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
Meanwhile, breaking news from the real world (by way of the Arctic Sea Ice blog).

Yamal to the Rescue

A couple of weeks ago it was decided that Russian research station NP-40 (or SP-40 in Russian) would need to be evacuated, because the ice floe it was sitting on was breaking into pieces. There hasn't been any news since then, but apparently the evacuation started last weekend, as the German N-TV reports (hat-tip to Jorgenson).



Below I translate some of the juicier bits from the N-TV article:

Nuclear ice breaker saves researchers

The mission is in full swing and spectacular: in the Arctic Ocean Russian researchers are being saved by the ice breaker Yamal. The ice floe below their research station is breaking apart. It's a race against time, because temperaures are anomalously high and the ice continues to melt.

(...)

The cracks in the 2 to 4 metre thick ice floe are endangering the safety of the scientists and could lead to the loss of valuable research materials. On top of this, oil and waste from the station could spill and contaminate the pristine landscape off the Canadian coast.

Evacuation costs 1.5 million euros

Boxes, shacks and even sled dogs: the helicopter picks up the components of the research station SP-40 and lifts it with an arm-thick rope aboard the "Yamal". The evacuation will cost Russia around 1.5 million euros.

"The floe has already broken into six fragments, each about 100 by 150 meters in size," Captain Stanislav Rumyantsev explains. His 31-man crew is working around the clock. "We have to hurry", says the commander of the 75,000-hp icebreaker. The nuclear-powered ship had arrived at the weekend in the Beaufort Sea, and since then the evacuation has been in full swing.

Air temperatures of -4 degrees Celsius, a wind speed of 9 metres per second and a visibility of ten kilometres: benign weather conditions for the rescuers, says Rumyantsev. In Musrmansk, Yamal's home port, Yekaterina Ananjewa of the company Atomflot estimates that work will soon be completed. "The ship only needed 7 days to reach the station, which is 1,600 kilometres from Canada. 5 days earlier than planned. We could start straight away, everything is going well," says Ananjewa.

The rest of the article describes how the Russians now want an artificial research platform that doesn't depend on the weather. The researchers will be brought to another station near Severnaya Zemlya that is on an ice floe that is still intact.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
Oh contrar

Perhaps a linguistic/spelling lesson is in order here:

au contraire (oh kon-TRAIR) noun

On the contrary.

[From French au contraire (on the contrary).]

On the face of it, there seems no reason to prefer au contraire to "on the contrary". The meaning is obvious whether it's expressed in French or English. True, the French version is two words rather than three but the saving is minimal and beside the point. The value of au contraire, therefore, lies with the slightly camp context in which it's usually found. An earnest argument demands "on the contrary", but an opposing point of view, not meant too seriously and delivered with a flip of the wrist or a raised eyebrow, justifies au contraire.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:53pm PT

Some thoughts on just a few of the many likely costs of not doing anything.

What is the cost of 1 million homes underwater worldwide? 10 million? 100 million?
Cost of productivity of existing farmland dropping 5%? 10%? 20%? 40%?
Cost when river flows in dry areas (Africa, Mid-East, US southwest for instance) drop 10%? 20%?

http://climate.nasa.gov/effects

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/impacts.htm

http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/watersustainability/index.asp

http://www.oeconline.org/our-work/climate-protection/global-warming-impacts-in-oregon

Some might ask if some world regions become capable of sustaining 200 million less people, but other regions become capable of sustaining 200 million more people, isn't that an equal tradeoff?
Only at a cost of perhaps $50,000 per person, $10 trillion dollars.
Yes these are just speculative numbers, the accuracy is not the issue.
To relocate people on a huge scale will require major wars, immigrant/language/culture conflicts, refugee camps bigger than ever before ( which will bring massive disease, death, crime, and corruption),
abandoning old areas without cleaning up pollution, and rebuilding entire infrastructures in new areas.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
I wuz involved in the FIRST and only Heli salvage sale in region 4 of the USFS. Millions of board feet of perfect lumber done within months of the fire. Back in the "pro-active" days of the USFS. We were using skycranes,, and had many a 3 log load..
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
From the article that Chaz posted:

“I’m asking that we don’t allow outside interests to impact the quality of life, the property values and the tourist-based economy that all the local residents who lived there worked so hard for over a long period of time,” said Frazier Haney, a Joshua Tree resident and president of Save Our Desert, a citizen group.

Hey! Now this thread is On Topic!! We're talkin' JTree.

But something seems fishy here, the article also says:


But residents in rural areas have complained about increased dust, blight and reflected light as a result of the projects, said Supervisors James Ramos and Robert Lovingood, who both represent districts with large rural, desert areas.

...

Conservationists praised the moratorium as a way to better plan projects and protect the desert.

Solar panels do not cause dust, and you have to get above them to see any reflected light. Blight?? Give me a break. And conservationists would never praise the moratorium.

Dollar to doughnuts, this whole thing was raised because those in charge of classic power generation are afraid to see solar work so well.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Solar panels do not cause dust...

They do when you remove vegetation and disturb hundreds of acres of fragile desert soil.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Bruce, in SOME instances that is true. But by in large, it was a gigantic stifling of not only the local economy but the forests themselves.

When i say we are down to only 2 choices in our timber health i know that to be the case seeing first hand the results of wildfires around my area and the effects some thirty years later. But ive also seen the positive affect of treatements that were considered totally out of the box and against the grain of the "norm". The problem is, that all of those foresters have since left the building due to having their hands zip tied so to speak. Zip tied by regulations that were generated by a lot of hoo-haw in the end.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Yes they do Christ and a large proportion of them are failing in three years instead of the 25 years they were supposed to last.

No Ed, i believe i quoted 3% of the atmospheric content of CO2 is anthropogenic. The big increase, that which brought us to 400 ppm, has been liberated from Earths natural sinks primarily because of solar and exta solar variations,orbital and axial cycles, and turnover by oceanic cycles.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
They [solar panels] do [cause dust] when you remove vegetation and disturb hundreds of acres of fragile desert soil.


Is that what they're building out there, huge solar power plants?


It appears there is no way around that second law...
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
Yes they do Christ and a large proportion of them are failing in three years...

Which ones have failed?


If the kuntry would pull their heads out of their asses and realize retrofitting existing structures would produce FAR more jobs for the middle class and less environmental damage than BIG CORPORATE solar farms we would be in much better shape. Of course that requires government because corporations operate on a large-scale short-term profit basis... and have convinced the idiots that all forms of government involvement are tyranny... only corporations operating in the free market can be trusted.


notice ron doesnt like one particular driver
so his only resort is to side with ripping out the steering wheel?

Many of the FS timber folks (vegetation management) are the same. They already know everything about everything. They KNOW their operations don't negatively impact the soil (bulk denisty, structure, infiltration, erosion, etc) which directly impacts reveg. When I would ask for information on their operations so I could collect data to test their claim, they would get red in the face and start ranting (almost sobbing) about how they can't possibly function under that kind of regulation. Really? They couldn't tell me where they are going to run a FB or skidder or have a landing?

That said, the contractor doing much of the thinning in the LTBMU is a standup guy and seems genuinely interested in adapting his operations to minimize adverse impacts. Wish there were more like him out there. Forests need to be thinned... and we need conscientious, intelligent, open minded people to do it.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
What is the cost of 1 million homes underwater worldwide? 10 million? 100 million?


Simple math. Cease building right on the coastlines and directly along any rivers.


Justcert'dPhD

If the kuntry would pull their heads out of their asses and realize retrofitting existing structures would produce FAR more jobs for the middle class and less environmental damage than BIG CORPORATE solar farms we would be in much better shape. Of course that requires government because corporations operate on a large-scale short-term profit basis... and have convinced the idiots that all forms of government involvement are tyranny... only corporations operating in the free market can be trusted.


SIN
what we need is a structure which allows regulation to respond to reality as quickly as possible

no regulation isnt the method of achieving just goals


Perfect examples of how all this has absolutely NADA to do with GCC and the environment! It is all about a political ideology. Nothing more.

If the upcoming G8 Summit was held in SF you all would be there protesting your asses off.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
the current rate of oceans rising is 3.3 MM per year plus or minus 0.40.

Less than a pencil erasers thickness. So the rising level trend must keep up for decades to affect any current seaside homes. I would just imagine, that if that is to be the case, some of them may actually rebuild, or move or do whatever steps needed to cope with the situation. Its not like theres going to be a tsunami wave of rising tides overnight. Most predict a 17 to 22 inch rise in the entire 21st century if trends follow suit.
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