Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 21, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Hell yeah! Maybe even a good one. But even a seemingly shittty one can be proven to be good after all. The operative term is proven.

THe critical cultural element required to proceed to theory is a distinction of motivation. What is important to you - to be right or to get to whats right?


edit: technically Mechrist is right. Unless you like to hang out on the Religion vs Science thread.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 21, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Ive already said that Wes.. But the EFFECTS are certainly nothing more than theory as to man made issues. The rest is conjecture of a far past.

I just AGAIN last night watched that lame commercial with the little english girl yammering on about the "endangered polar bears" because of global warming. That is absolute poop and nothing more than a lie to enhance a THEORY.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 21, 2013 - 11:26am PT
I just AGAIN last night watched that lame commercial with the little english girl yammering on about the "endangered polar bears" because of global warming. That is absolute poop and nothing more than a lie to enhance a THEORY.


I agree

Beautiful theories are often ravaged by gangs of brutal facts.


poop or no poop
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 21, 2013 - 11:32am PT
As disingenuous and missleading as we can all agree those tear jerker commercials are, the theory of polar beer survival is just plainly uncertain. There is some thought that they may turn into land based predators, for instance. Like the Spotted Owl, maybe its not the best flag bearer for the ecologicla change that is empirically proven to be happening, where the theory is sound.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 21, 2013 - 11:36am PT
I wonder how many climate change skeptics live in Moore, OK.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 21, 2013 - 11:37am PT
Thats putting it "mildly" Bruce.

The spotted owl and polar bear were the FLAGships until they were shot down.(pun intended) They were carefully orchestrated tactics in an effort to enhance the global warming theorists. The info was skewed to THEIR purpose,, in other words, exactly the same as you accuse of the "deniers"..


Now the real question, is if the theories are so solid, then WHY engage in false propaganda to enhance it?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 21, 2013 - 11:46am PT
I don't dispute it at all. We agree. Now perhaps you better understand my criticism of the overall intelligence and motivations that dominate American culture. The stupidity is not entirely confined to right wingers obvioiusly. If we were all smart, none of us would focus on the cute bunnies and polar bears when there are more certain indicators of what is happening.

If we could focus on "best understanding of reality" rather than "iconic mythology" then at least we'ed get past this thing about wether its happening. But that just boring science.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
May 21, 2013 - 11:47am PT
I wonder how many climate change skeptics live in Moore, OK.

Considering it's square in the heart of the bible belt, I'm going to guess most of them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 21, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Again NO ONE here says the climate isnt changing.. It is, has and WILL ALWAYS be changing. It has done so without mans interference for as long as records of any fashion have been kept and then some.

But there are many anomalies that contradict "warming". Alaska weather current is one of them. So is the GROWING antartic ice. So is Nevada weather for that matter. These are OBSERVATIONS of real time reality. But according to some have ZERO to do with "warming". So it seems we have MANY anomalies and some false ehnacements to go along with them, and yet theres no room for doubt?
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
May 21, 2013 - 11:54am PT
The propoganda of polar bears isn't false Ron--we just have more data now--and like all scientists we have to take into account new observations--Even Einstien's theory's get modified when new information or detection methods appear.

Where is your criticism of the false propaganda being distributed by Big Oil, Multiantional Corporations, and Superwealthy????

On your "Art of death" thread you answered one of my objections to killing animals for sport because I don't like animals being wasted for trophy's...you explained that not one bit of the animal is wasted...I trust your telling the truth because you seem to be a nature lover, and a good person at heart...do you really think that people who want to change our energy systems to something other than FOSSIL FUEL have any goal other than preserving the nature you so love??
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 21, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
NOT in the least Mt lion.. You take the ball and run far to far with it.

If you ever followed the politard threads, youve seen where i want America to rely on its own fossil fuel sources to USHER IN alternatives as that is the only way i see them outbidding big oil, is for it to be IMPERATIVE to do so. As long as we continue to suck the oil from other world wide sources no such improvements will be made.

I know deep down that sucking the moistures from our rock can ONLY have dire consequences, perhaps hundreds or thousands of years down the road,, WHO KNOWS!?? I know that CLEANER air is better air.


And YES Mt lion, the polar bear thing was/is a SCAM,, period.. "There arent just a few more bears,, theres a HELL of a lot more bears" . So sayeth biologists who have been studying them for the past two decades. As well as the Native people of the area.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 21, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
But there are many anomalies that contradict "warming". Alaska weather current is one of them. So is the GROWING antartic ice. So is Nevada weather for that matter. These are OBSERVATIONS of real time reality. But according to some have ZERO to do with "warming". So it seems we have MANY anomalies and some false ehnacements to go along with them, and yet theres no room for doubt?


It has to do with a WEIGHTING of doubt. You, me, Knotts up his ass and damn near everyone here are at a serious disadvantage in weighting the significance of the "anomolies" and parsing the technical processes required. It is that simple. They are rabbit holes that are fun to explore and no one should be discouraged from doing so certainly, but this does not give us lisence to assume we have the skill or "wisdom" to discern the import.

Look at it this way. Anybody can stuff a bird. I know that for a fact. But it takes an expert not to botch the job. If it is critical to not botch the job we really need the experts to find the devil in the details or, if we really insist on getting our hands dirty, do it under guidance of credible mentors.

Rick, Knotty, The Chief and various other blowhards insist on doing the job themselves, with predictable results.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 21, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
Church Of Anthropogenic Hotheads And Latter Day Nature Denialists
Kevin Trenberth- High Priest and Profit


Gentlemen,

It has come to my attention that our flock members charged with conversion of infidels on that peculiar forum known as Supertopo have been particularly ineffective of late.In Fact, after a withering attack by the inconvenient forbidden truths ,as presented by very effective infidels, our flock members are losing the attention of our targeted converts.This situation is untenable and those members charged with conversion on Supertopo will face excommunication if this situation is not immediately remedied.Bless the profit, regards undersecretary Norton.






Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 21, 2013 - 12:14pm PT


thank you for that, Rick


and the beatings will continue until your morale improves.......
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 21, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
There have been many times in history where very smart men were engaged in theorizing a subject, only to have a common man step up and say,, well,, what about THIS? Then the look of a light bulb hits said scientists, who in their highly educated minds were incapable of thinking on a "smaller" level or scale. They MISSED the obvious due to being to far down a theoretical path. You call these "rabbit holes" which in itself is an indicator of not knowing exactly what these anomalies are. And perhaps neither do I, but it DOES create questions.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 21, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
Bruce, recent genetic research shows that there is a gene which produces a
borne contrarian. Now, that can be a very profitable thing if you're a hedge
fund manager, or it can get you a lot of attention otherwise.
El Cono

Boulder climber
Tierra Del Cońo
May 21, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
There have been many times in history where very smart men were engaged in theorizing a subject, only to have a common man step up and say,, well,, what about THIS?

Find me one....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 21, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Now the real question, is if the theories are so solid, then WHY engage in false propaganda to enhance it?

Well, for one... because we live in a society where greedy fukheads rule over dipshits who will believe damn near anything.



If you want an interesting story about endangered species, read about the Tellico dam on the Little Tennessee River. Old thinking (dam building) pushed for building dams in shitty sites, the only ones that remained. Nobody could stop the dam juggernaut, just like nobody can stop the Big Oil juggernaut of today.

Opponents of the dam did everything they could to stop the dam, including using the Endangered Species Act to protect the small snail darter. Dam construction was stopped at over 90% completion. It was shown that it made far more economic sense to abandon construction of the Tellico dam at that time, despite being nearly complete. Big Dam would never admit it, just like Big Oil would never admit the impact of anthropogenic CO2 contributions or that it makes far more sense to invest in renewable energy. Tellico was a horrible investment, a huge waste of money, an ecological disaster (as all dams are), and a good illustration of how ecological concerns should and can be used to prevent the runaway stupidity of our $$ and power driven society.

You know who signed the ESA into law?



Congress eventually exempted the Tellico dam from the Endangered Species Act and it was completed. People in power made their $$ at the expense of the environment, tribal lands, etc... just like Big Oil is doing now. The water diverted from the Tellico dam to the Fort Loudoun dam produces as much electricity as about 8 wind turbines. Fuking pathetic.



One reason the ESA is used to prevent logging of old growth, building of dams, etc is because identifying "threatened or endangered species" is FAR easier than quantifying overall impacts to the ecosystem. Identifying the loss of (e.g.) polar bear habitat and getting the public to take notice is far easier than explaining the science of climate change to folks who refuse to listen to facts and don't understand the first thing about the scientific process.

I've heard many a uneducated logger claim "we know the impacts of our logging practices and they are minimal." Complete bullsh#t... you can't KNOW your impacts if you haven't quantified or at least systematically monitored them... which they haven't. It is the same ignorant argument folks are prodded to repeat in response to climate change. It is as absurd as me claiming Ron's stuffings of an animal I had never seen don't look real enough.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 21, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
There have been many times in history where very smart men were engaged in theorizing a subject, only to have a common man step up and say,, well,, what about THIS?

Find me one....


find me one too

thanks


I'll take intelligence and education all day long, Alex
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 21, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Ok, When i was working in NDOT, we had an erosion problem in a roadway- that threatened to undermine the asphalt.. The dept sent down two "engineers" to "study" and recommend possible solutions to a semi unique situation. It was directly above a water source and stream owned by a local tribe. This went on for two months, as the erosion just got larger. We gathered at the site to discuss the various options they had come up with..
They suggested we spend about two hundred thousand on an elaborate fencing, and all manner of collection traps and eco retention's.

We stood there listening to the drawn out "plans" getting more confused as we went along. FINALLY, a member of the crew steps up and says,, what if we just use UNIVERSAL PATCH MIX to create a stair stepping drainage down to the bottom culvert? It wont MOVE...

There was this rather long silence amongst the engineers- in fact amongst the whole scene. You could HEAR the wheels turning.

The problem was fixed via UPM and about 1800.00 TOTAL cost to the taxpayers..



This was CLEARLY a time when highly educated guys didnt have the COMMON knowledge of those on the ground.
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