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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
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Norton, right?
He blew all the credibility he built up with that one statement ;-)
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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Mario Molina very much believes CO2 is the most important and worrysome cause of global warming.
He just wants more attention paid to other items like like black carbon soot, methane, hcfs, which may help keep us from reaching the tipping point.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
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>Mario Molina very much believes CO2 is the most important and worrysome cause of global warming.
But has his group been able to provide correlative proof? Belief in a hypothesis is part of the method, but only part. The '07 NOAA pub was the first to claim correlation and they have taken endless flack since publishing.
>so how about moving over to a discussion as to what exactly we humans can or should do about this recent warming trend we are on?
Sustained reduction of human population down to 1 or 2 billion would do wonders.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Sustained reduction of human population down to 1 or 2 billion would do wonders.
damn good suggestion!
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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>A glacial core sample that stretches back 20,000 years is a sporadic
>sample? Just cuz there's one?
One should not attempt to correlate global phenomena in chaotic systems by analysis of data taken from one location.
> If everybody decided that they just didn't have enough data,
>nothing would ever get done.
It's more important to do a few things really well than a whole bunch of things to a mediocre level of quality.
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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"damn good suggestion!"
And unfortunately one that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
I know the limitations of photovoltaics and the use of solar-powered steam generation to drive turbine generators. I'd love to see even a fraction of global revenues be put into these techs, even if they are not efficient enough to 'pay their own way', because turning sunlight into electrical energy is effectively anti-warming. It will take decades to get all of the required infrastructure in place.
"He blew all the credibility he built up with that one statement ;-)"
With all the sh#t-slinging that goes on here, a dose of humor goes a long way.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
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But has his group been able to provide correlative proof?
No one feels obliged to prove anything to the fringe who will always deny.
And yeah, it was quite funny, when you claimed most leading climate scientists aren't sure that fuel combustion has warmed the planet.
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
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Well, let's see you determine the composite heat budget for the planet.
While you are at it, provide a jet stream model that is accurately predictive.
Until you can get correlation on a global scale, all you have is speculation. I agree with much of the speculation, just not the claims of proof.
>No one feels obliged to prove anything to the fringe who will always deny.
Then don't call it 'science'. Peer review is the very core of science.
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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Yes sir! We only met face to face on that one trip, which was Alan Steck's 75th birthday party at Red Rocks. But we 'knew' each other for years through rec.climbing.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
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We already have a good idea of where the heat is going. Sorry it doesn't meet your standards.
You've got some funny concepts about proof going their, Mad69dog. Good luck.
BTW, what's your definition of 100% correlative proof?
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Yes, proof is science's troll to the layman.
Science does not actually aspire to provide proof in its purest form. Science attempts to eliminate conflicting possibilities. In this case, we have the ability to measure greenhouse gases in the atmosphere with adequate sensitivity and precision. But drawing a graph of CO2 alongside some indicator of temperature does not correlate the two unless you remove / correct for all other contributions to global heat. This is where even the most sophisticated models struggle - the global heat budget. Thus the need for far more sensors.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
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That's why your demand for 'correlative proof' is funny. You seem to be understanding this now.
The last assessment of the science is we are 90% sure man is causing the warming.
The leaked assessment has moved that up to 95%.
You are just going to have to dig into the reports yourself for all the details.
And yep, lots of factors contributing to the climate system have been considered, not just CO2.
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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>You seem to be understanding this now.
As if you could pretend to know...
But there is no proof because the global heat budget is a gross approximation. There is no proof. Yet. So feel free to believe what you will, just don't pretend that there is proof.
>The last assessment of the science is we are 90% sure man is
>causing the warming.
That is hilarious. Based on what, exactly, is this 90%?
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
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Yep, Mad69dog, you are going to have to dig into the reports to understand the confidence level.
No one here will bother, considering your misrepresentation of what the 'leading' climate scientists claim.
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
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Monolith, do you work in the field of climate change?
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
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Hi Chief,
You are a blessed man for spending real time with Brutus and the Nurse. Awesome folks.
Yes, I tend to take alot of flack for my environmental stances. I've been in research for a bit over 30 years now and am used to it. But what do I know, all I've done is decades of research in these fields...
Peace!
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
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Why would it matter, Maddog? Ed Hartouni doesn't work in climate change. Are you going to question his credentials too?
Anyone who believes, as you do, that most of the leading climate scientists are uncertain about combustion of fossil fuels causing global warming is clueless, regardless of their credentials.
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Mad69Dog
Mountain climber
Superior, CO
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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Chief: Are you trying to insinuate that there are other processes transporting greenhouse gasses into the environment? Are any of them natural?
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