Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:58am PT
|
Your statement about CO2/temps 1896-1996 is complete simplified b.s. Ed.If that was simply true and the positive feedbacks the models depend on to amplify were all simplistically true then we would have had a runaway greenhouse eons ago with the first moderately sized basaltic volcanic eruption. CO2 release from the natural sinks follow solar and extra solar induced temp rise. Their is a whole host of negative feedbacks that moderate the CO2 increase long before temps get out of control.
If we followed the path that some of you advocate and abandon fossil fuels tomorrow complete economic collapse would ensue. The problem is that the people would remain and they would all desperately continue to exist with the resulting enviromental degradation on a scale never before witnessed. Just look at orbital pictures of the island of Hispaniola to see what would result. On one half of the island is the Dominican Republic, lush with tropical greenery, which has a vibrant economy. On the other half is Haiti which is stripped bare and brown because they have no functioning economy and the large population live as if they are in the 18th century. A lot of you rabid enviros might have a death wish to return to the 18th century and live as you call it "sustainably off the land" but not a majority of modern civilization. It might surprise you but i believe in abortion for you, post partum that is, so if you have a death wish by all means self abort.
Your stated dream of massive CO2 reduction could be started tomorrow and accomplished fairly quickly by embracing usage of the vast stores of natural gas beneath a majority of the populations feet and building many more nuclear plants. Unfortunately that is not in the cards because all sensibility has been hijacked through the courts by the rabid enviro movement.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
|
Ok, who erased one of their posts, which transferred my last post from the start of this page to the end of the last?
No it is you who is not talking sensibly. Be proactive Ed, put forward a solution to the overblown problem that doesn't destroy the economy and make environmental degradation worse.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
|
The Chief, thanks for your answer.
DMT: That's idiotic. Sorry its as stupid as bell ringing the 'indicator species' bullsh#t. Sh#t, yall conservatives wanted free trade and low 3rd world wages for manual labor, YOU GOT THAT AND NOW YOU WHINE WHINE WHINE.
Exactly. Those mills were being closed down before the owl, that timber was being shipped overseas for milling.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
|
No, i am not saying that. Manmade activity only contributes 3% of the trace gas Co2 to the relatively thin atmosphere. What i am saying is;if their is a possibility to placate your sides insane phobias what can you offer that doesn't destroy the economy and really degrade the environment that the rest of the rational population must live in?
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
|
Well Chief, that article gets to the crux of the problem In my mind the solution to all is only to be found in technology. If the scientific community could get their heads out of the rearends of the corrupt competing forces of corporate/government factions and invent, innovate, create instead of study to further greed's agenda then we could have a bright future. If they can't and scientific hijacking continues then we are all in for misery.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
|
Ot, but doing a quick review I found nothing that states that spotted owls prefer anything but mature and old growth forests. I call bs.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
|
The Chief shits himself again:
Unlike you and others here, I could give a flying ratass what eco liberal freaks such as yourself, or anyone else for that matter, think of me.
Looks like The Chief got a little annoyed when I called him on his BS.
@ The Chief: Ponder this for a moment, I couldn't care less what other people think of you. I'm just pointing out what is obvious to most people who care to read the gibberish you write--simply that you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about, but think that if you yell it loud enough, folks will listen.
People play with you like they play with cats using a laser. They point it here, and see you run. Then there, and see you bounce over there. For them it's amusing to see you run around, thinking you're actually doing something valuable. But to those with the lasers, you're just a dumb cat who can't tell the difference between a light spot and something of real value.
Now go stick your finger in the lake again, it must be getting dry by now.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
|
Damn K man, too frickin funny!
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
|
Ron why don't you post your sources regarding owl habitat?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
|
Chief you have stated you are proud of your ignorance. Good for you-- want a cookie?
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
|
There are lots of things we could do to decrease greenhouse gases.
There is no one simple solution.
Oil/Gasoline/natural gas are actually quite cheap so phasing in much higher fuel taxes is not even much of a burden.
Stop giving oil companies tax breaks.
Stop subsidizing fuel oil for heating.
Charge tolls on roads, also prevents sprawl.
More public transit and bike lanes.
Allow more infill housing.
Fund research into energy storage to allow more renewables.
Rebuild major hydro facilities to add stored pumped energy. There are many locations that already have an upper and lower storage reservoir.
In California, after the power crisis in 2001, they set up stepped rates for electric consumption, similar to water rates. If you only use the lower baseline amount, your rate per kw-hr is less. The builders associations here want to undo that, in order to subsidize their new construction, which mainly sprawls into hot inland areas that use lots of air condiitioning for their Mcmansions.
Just as homes here are required to have low flow toilets, and are forbidden to water lawns and wash cars in a drought, we might consider efficiency requirements such as upgraded insulation & improved windows on existing homes and apartments.
Decrease corruption and insiders on Public Utility Commissions.
Stop subsidizing energy intensive food, esp meat and dairy.
Continue increasing efficiency standards for appliances, lights, heaters, air cond, tv's.
Increase effiency at 2nd tier data centers (the wasteful ones).
More recycling, less packaging waste.
Stop subsidizing air travel.
Decrease coal burning.
Restrict natural gas leaks from pipes and drilling.
Carbon taxes are a lot more straightforward, workable, predictable, and effective than cap and trade.
Another issue as some have pointed out is that global population increases can still lead to increased emissions. One of the problems is religions that are still against birth control and family planning. This is an area for possible improvements. However, we don't want to get bogged down in a religious fray.
more ideas
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2013/03/which-major-cities-are-leaders-in-reducing-geenhouse-gas-emissions/
Each change will have be well thought out to minimize disruptions, but there will still be some. It needs to be remembered that there are costs and benefits to policy change and there are also big potential costs to climate change, per my next post.
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
|
Meanwhile, breaking news from the real world (by way of the Arctic Sea Ice blog).
Yamal to the Rescue
A couple of weeks ago it was decided that Russian research station NP-40 (or SP-40 in Russian) would need to be evacuated, because the ice floe it was sitting on was breaking into pieces. There hasn't been any news since then, but apparently the evacuation started last weekend, as the German N-TV reports (hat-tip to Jorgenson).
Below I translate some of the juicier bits from the N-TV article:
Nuclear ice breaker saves researchers
The mission is in full swing and spectacular: in the Arctic Ocean Russian researchers are being saved by the ice breaker Yamal. The ice floe below their research station is breaking apart. It's a race against time, because temperaures are anomalously high and the ice continues to melt.
(...)
The cracks in the 2 to 4 metre thick ice floe are endangering the safety of the scientists and could lead to the loss of valuable research materials. On top of this, oil and waste from the station could spill and contaminate the pristine landscape off the Canadian coast.
Evacuation costs 1.5 million euros
Boxes, shacks and even sled dogs: the helicopter picks up the components of the research station SP-40 and lifts it with an arm-thick rope aboard the "Yamal". The evacuation will cost Russia around 1.5 million euros.
"The floe has already broken into six fragments, each about 100 by 150 meters in size," Captain Stanislav Rumyantsev explains. His 31-man crew is working around the clock. "We have to hurry", says the commander of the 75,000-hp icebreaker. The nuclear-powered ship had arrived at the weekend in the Beaufort Sea, and since then the evacuation has been in full swing.
Air temperatures of -4 degrees Celsius, a wind speed of 9 metres per second and a visibility of ten kilometres: benign weather conditions for the rescuers, says Rumyantsev. In Musrmansk, Yamal's home port, Yekaterina Ananjewa of the company Atomflot estimates that work will soon be completed. "The ship only needed 7 days to reach the station, which is 1,600 kilometres from Canada. 5 days earlier than planned. We could start straight away, everything is going well," says Ananjewa.
The rest of the article describes how the Russians now want an artificial research platform that doesn't depend on the weather. The researchers will be brought to another station near Severnaya Zemlya that is on an ice floe that is still intact.
|
|
Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
|
Oh contrar
Perhaps a linguistic/spelling lesson is in order here:
au contraire (oh kon-TRAIR) noun
On the contrary.
[From French au contraire (on the contrary).]
On the face of it, there seems no reason to prefer au contraire to "on the contrary". The meaning is obvious whether it's expressed in French or English. True, the French version is two words rather than three but the saving is minimal and beside the point. The value of au contraire, therefore, lies with the slightly camp context in which it's usually found. An earnest argument demands "on the contrary", but an opposing point of view, not meant too seriously and delivered with a flip of the wrist or a raised eyebrow, justifies au contraire.
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
|
Some thoughts on just a few of the many likely costs of not doing anything.
What is the cost of 1 million homes underwater worldwide? 10 million? 100 million?
Cost of productivity of existing farmland dropping 5%? 10%? 20%? 40%?
Cost when river flows in dry areas (Africa, Mid-East, US southwest for instance) drop 10%? 20%?
http://climate.nasa.gov/effects
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/impacts.htm
http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/watersustainability/index.asp
http://www.oeconline.org/our-work/climate-protection/global-warming-impacts-in-oregon
Some might ask if some world regions become capable of sustaining 200 million less people, but other regions become capable of sustaining 200 million more people, isn't that an equal tradeoff?
Only at a cost of perhaps $50,000 per person, $10 trillion dollars.
Yes these are just speculative numbers, the accuracy is not the issue.
To relocate people on a huge scale will require major wars, immigrant/language/culture conflicts, refugee camps bigger than ever before ( which will bring massive disease, death, crime, and corruption),
abandoning old areas without cleaning up pollution, and rebuilding entire infrastructures in new areas.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
|
From the article that Chaz posted:
“I’m asking that we don’t allow outside interests to impact the quality of life, the property values and the tourist-based economy that all the local residents who lived there worked so hard for over a long period of time,” said Frazier Haney, a Joshua Tree resident and president of Save Our Desert, a citizen group.
Hey! Now this thread is On Topic!! We're talkin' JTree.
But something seems fishy here, the article also says:
But residents in rural areas have complained about increased dust, blight and reflected light as a result of the projects, said Supervisors James Ramos and Robert Lovingood, who both represent districts with large rural, desert areas.
...
Conservationists praised the moratorium as a way to better plan projects and protect the desert.
Solar panels do not cause dust, and you have to get above them to see any reflected light. Blight?? Give me a break. And conservationists would never praise the moratorium.
Dollar to doughnuts, this whole thing was raised because those in charge of classic power generation are afraid to see solar work so well.
|
|
Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
|
Solar panels do not cause dust...
They do when you remove vegetation and disturb hundreds of acres of fragile desert soil.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
|
Yes they do Christ and a large proportion of them are failing in three years instead of the 25 years they were supposed to last.
No Ed, i believe i quoted 3% of the atmospheric content of CO2 is anthropogenic. The big increase, that which brought us to 400 ppm, has been liberated from Earths natural sinks primarily because of solar and exta solar variations,orbital and axial cycles, and turnover by oceanic cycles.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
|
They [solar panels] do [cause dust] when you remove vegetation and disturb hundreds of acres of fragile desert soil.
Is that what they're building out there, huge solar power plants?
It appears there is no way around that second law...
|
|
Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
|
Yes they do Christ and a large proportion of them are failing in three years...
Which ones have failed?
If the kuntry would pull their heads out of their asses and realize retrofitting existing structures would produce FAR more jobs for the middle class and less environmental damage than BIG CORPORATE solar farms we would be in much better shape. Of course that requires government because corporations operate on a large-scale short-term profit basis... and have convinced the idiots that all forms of government involvement are tyranny... only corporations operating in the free market can be trusted.
notice ron doesnt like one particular driver
so his only resort is to side with ripping out the steering wheel?
Many of the FS timber folks (vegetation management) are the same. They already know everything about everything. They KNOW their operations don't negatively impact the soil (bulk denisty, structure, infiltration, erosion, etc) which directly impacts reveg. When I would ask for information on their operations so I could collect data to test their claim, they would get red in the face and start ranting (almost sobbing) about how they can't possibly function under that kind of regulation. Really? They couldn't tell me where they are going to run a FB or skidder or have a landing?
That said, the contractor doing much of the thinning in the LTBMU is a standup guy and seems genuinely interested in adapting his operations to minimize adverse impacts. Wish there were more like him out there. Forests need to be thinned... and we need conscientious, intelligent, open minded people to do it.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!