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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 12, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
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Nothing there about the arctic ice disappearing completely, Anderson in history. There is noise in nearly all data gathered from nature. CO2 and temps fluctuated in the last 10K years, ice melted at different rates correlated to temp. Not sure what you are trying to say, Anderson. Now we are facing something new in man's history, a rapid rise in CO2.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 12, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
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Yes Bruce, if their was proof of CAGW i would change my mind and apologize even. But their isn't. One little problem you guys have is that CO2 rise follows temperatures as it is liberated from the sinks. Ed is right, Co2 was identified as a greenhouse gas in 1896. What wasn't identified and explained then is the natural negative feedbacks regulating its atmospheric quantity. Without these we would have had a runaway greenhouse effect eons ago.Human emissions are responsible for something like 3% of all atmospheric CO2, the rest is natural and the excess over the last geological epoch will return to its sink by way of natural negative feedbacks-i.e. if as many solar scientists are claiming we are on the start of a solar minima period, the temps will start to decrease and the oceans capacity as a sink will increase. This is testable and confirmable unlike the IPCC sanctioned models which are diverging from observations with increasing frequency.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 12, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
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But Ron's claim is interesting. The sea ice cover where less than 50% compared to the ice cover today but the CO2 level during that time where only at the non man induced maximum level (200 ppm or something like that) and that level is much less than today's man induced level. So the ice melt when the earth is warm and the co2 concentration is high BUT NOT AS HIGH AS TODAY!!!
So I guess that we are safe, ron right as always and the scientist continue with there scam.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 12, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
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This thread needs a skeptic that has at least some knowledge about science and logic.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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The irony, The Chief, is that you pretend to have some respect with claims and assertions. But so many times you have been proven to spew nothing but hot air, that you have little respect from those that actually know what they are talking about here.
So, is your finger still wet from that lake, or do you need to go and prove to yourself again that there is no drought?
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Jun 12, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
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I vote we just rename this the "teaching pigs to sing" thread.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jun 12, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
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Nice opinion ,DMT
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 12, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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Had Magellan first sailed around around the world in 2013, the denialists would be out in force saying the earth is flat, and it's a conspiracy to destroy all that is good.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:27am PT
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nicely said Dingus...
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:37am PT
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Im sorry Bruce but it is you in the Petri dish. CAGW is losing ground daily and its proponents are jumping overboard like rats deserting a sinking ship. You are not the captain, you dont need to go down with the ship.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 13, 2013 - 02:17am PT
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Tonights contributions to the discussions. How much is the human contribution to atmospheric CO2 and where is it coming from? See below, then pick it apart like a bunch of buzzards.
Why should anyone do this when you just ignore their comments when they actually do it?
I thought that you could help my understanding of what Murry said when he talked about the integral of the temperature?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 13, 2013 - 02:27am PT
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That about covers it Ed.
Nice to condense 1000's of posts down to the simplest pertinent detail.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:11am PT
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http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature-intermediate.htm
When the Earth comes out of an ice age, the warming is not initiated by CO2 but by changes in the Earth's orbit. The warming causes the oceans to release CO2. The CO2 amplifies the warming and mixes through the atmosphere, spreading warming throughout the planet. So CO2 causes warming AND rising temperature causes CO2 rise. Overall, about 90% of the global warming occurs after the CO2 increase.
Over the last half million years, our climate has experienced long ice ages regularly punctuated by brief warm periods called interglacials. Atmospheric carbon dioxide closely matches the cycle, increasing by around 80 to 100 parts per million as Antarctic temperatures warm up to 10°C. However, when you look closer, CO2 actually lags Antarctic temperature changes by around 1,000 years. While this result was predicted two decades ago (Lorius 1990), it still surprises and confuses many(like The Chief). Does warming cause CO2 rise or the other way around? In actuality, the answer is both.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:34am PT
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Not according the Vostok Ice Core Samples and many scientist that DO NOT agree with the consensus.
Chief has posted versions of that Vostok ice core temp/CO2 graphic dozens of times, and I expect he will post dozens more. In his head this graph is a killer argument against ACC.
Strangely, the real scientists who go out on the ice to drill, then bring back and carefully analyze the cores -- who understand where those numbers come from, and what they tell -- have reached just the opposite conclusion.
There's no point in explaining science to Chief, he has proven that many times. But this is a durable denier meme. If anyone else here wonders why the ice scientists aren't reaching the same conclusion Chief does, I'd be happy to write a post later today with links to recent papers.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:58am PT
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Denier science about CO2 lags:
Chickens do not lay eggs because they have been observed hatching from them.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 13, 2013 - 10:07am PT
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Rick Poedtke wrote:Fact is, if your claim is true, and per the history of this planet as science knows it, regardless what we humans do in order to attempt to reverse this all, our efforts are indeed fruitless. History dictates that it has and will occur again. The 10-20 time increase in atmospheric C02 content. Regardless how much C02 we pump into the atmosphere.
Please, The Chief, answer this simple question, in light of what you wrote above:
If human activity is causing an unnatural increase in CO2, can human activity decrease the amount of CO2 that humans create?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 13, 2013 - 10:27am PT
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meh ..sorry for the post delete the cheif. I was feeling stupid for getting into an argument with you. but by the time I deleted it was too late. you posted during the deletion.
Anyway I usually stay away from this thread. The thread and argument is pointless no matter how strongly I feel about it.
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edit again..
My simple guess (hypothesis) without supporting data or research.
increased temps lead to more forest-fires. Forest fire idea might be somewhat verifiable by vostok cores if they show increased burned particulate matter.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:40am PT
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No Ron, the northwest timber industry was on the way out long before owl populations tanked.
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