Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Aug 3, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
All the right wing cults have proven to be based on lies and fear
The GCC deniers will be shown to be what they are, fools and pawns for the propagandists
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Aug 3, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Blue blocker - thanks for your detailed reply. I also apologize for my snide assuming comments, clearly unwarranted. By your reply I must have miss read your previous contributions, which I had thought indicated a AGW denial bias. No doubt some of my own prejudice / suspicions regarding religious bias also played a part so its really nice to see I may be wrong, at least with you.

Your comments about the importance of not making a person feel guilty and / or hypocritical about using fossil fuels in every day life I thought was bang on. Sure it is possible for people to decrease their use to a degree but most people can't dump it dramatically without incurring risks and cost that literally puts them at a competitive disadvantage with their neighbors. The little individual cannot be expected to drive the huge technical innovation we need which is exactly why the pressure must come as broad scale public policy initiatives built into energy and tax policies - so the costs are distributed equitably and logically.

But to get back to religion and the relationship with anti science bias. Would you agree that such a thing exists with a sizeable population of the faithful? No doubt it is most apparent with specific faiths and more absent with others but generally speaking there is a significant conflict between most faiths doctrine and science. I'm curious how such people can justify (using logic that is, not doctrine) such a discounting ( or distrust) of our best system of understanding the reality of nature. I would be particularly interested in how an actual career scientist would rationalize conflict between their faith and the conclusions of science, especially where their church authorities start telling them "your either with us or against us". It must be like having to juggle two seperate sets of realities.

No less a conflict for the average joe church goer but they at least don't have to worry about professional ethics.

Same goes for right wingers, who worry even less about any kind of ethics.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Aug 3, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Ed, you left out his 'command error' account. It's his tactical fall back position.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Aug 4, 2013 - 12:41am PT
Play me a different tune Jerry. You know, politics is a disgustingly messy, rough and tumble business, beneath your dignity.

Beneath your dignity too Rick? Fo a man who is prone to pretensions of greater dignity this is just another easy cop out. Politics like it or not os unavoidable and in fact it could be argued that the absence of politics would mean an absence of civilization. So you find messy rough and tumble business beneath your dignity? Yet you keep coming back don't you? When you hang out with us are you slumming it?

But lets get real for a second. There are times I admit when it seems like a big horse fly has landed on my leg and regardless of how harmless it is the urge to squash his freaky little right winger beady eyes is just too irresistible and the satisfaction that lingers after its death is delicious. Messy rough and tumble maybe but a harsh ( for him at least) fact of life.

So it goes here. Sometimes the things you say generate the same impulses and like the horsefly you can say that maybe its not really justifiable but it sure as hell is understandible. Especially when you guys - anybody really but you guys wallow in it - generate so much intellectual dishonesty or as I prefer to call it, cowardice. So long as you guys refuse to honestly engage in examination of perfectly legitimate factors such as justifying your beliefs and motives and aknowledging the irrationality of your beliefs and motives determining your "science". Yes I realize you will accuse us of the same crimes but as stated we welcome that challenge of examination and it is you guys who avoid it. If you want a dignified debate then you better be willing to debate with dignity.

If you can't then you really must forgive us for occasionally stooping to your level, even if just for the fun of it.
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 4, 2013 - 02:26am PT
There are times I admit when it seems like a big horse fly has landed on my leg...

You do of course know that Horse Flies are attracted to, eat and lay their eggs in horse shet. That must then make you Bruce one bigass piece of walking horse shet. Got it. Nice.

must come as broad scale public policy initiatives built into energy and tax policies - so the costs are distributed equitably and logically.

Ah, nothing like a little wealth distribution. A totally socialistic philosophy. Spot on Bruce. The foundation of this entire issue. You have finally confessed to the fact that is what this all about. Your political ideology and dogma. Not one bit about the environment. Thanks for coming clean on that. But, NO THANKS!

Thank god them Canuk Rednecks are and will remain in power. Cus the likes of you totally suck. Big Time.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Aug 4, 2013 - 08:11am PT
That was a little weird Ed..

Actually, it's sort of cool. I can't be the only one wondering how his/her own contribution would look through this lens. Is it handmade or quick now?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 4, 2013 - 09:38am PT
and yet its STILL the CC crowd that posts the most NON topic posts to dis heer thread..
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Shame on them, eh Ron? They should just keep posting the FACTS that you douche nozzles refuse to acknowledge... over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

Explaining math to a denier: If one bag has 5 apples in it and the other bag has 10 apples in it, you have an average of 7 and 1/2 apples per bag.

I DON'T LIKE APPLES. YOU CAN'T MAKE ME EAT THEM. AND 1/2 HALF APPLE? YOU DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE APPLES BEING CUT. [Cite blog rantings here].

fuking idiots
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:23am PT
That must then make you Bruce one bigass piece of walking horse shet.


Ah thats what I love about you Huff n' Chuff! No pretensions of anything for you. Honey Badgers be Honey Badgers. You're on fire this morning - Did your monthly redistribution of wealth rejuvenate your bank account or something?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:29am PT
NO ONE denies climate changes,, always has/will..Despite wasting money and all manner of "studies"..But the fact that the "GREAT PAUSE" goes on unexplained is one GIANT LEAP for CC types. And ill bet dimes to donuts you cant tell a .09 degree of difference on yur face any day.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:37am PT
NO ONE denies climate changes,,

Ah we're back on STEP TWO!!!!111111111

(even if there IS climate change humans aren't causing it...)

NO ONE denies the Three Step Shuffle.

DMT
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:38am PT
goes on unexplained

No, it doesn't. You're not even trying to read, are you? Just repeating yourself loudly.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:42am PT
you cant tell a .09 degree of difference on yur face any day.

.09 Rong? Do you mean 0.9? Orders of magnitude matter. You have been corrected on that several times, and you seem to insist on screwing it up every time. Why?

And wtf does the sensitivity of one's face have to do with mean global temperatures?

YOU SAID 7 AND 1/2 APPLES. I DON'T SEE ANY HALF APPLES.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 4, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Credit: Ron Anderson
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 4, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Ron, multiple choice:

What happens when you increase the temperature of melting ice by 0.9 degree Celsius?

A) The ice melts twice as fast
B) The ice refreezes
C) It is physically impossible to increase the temperature of melting ice
D) I don't see any half apples
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Aug 4, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
I am not sorry foes, i will not dance to your tune, or participate by the rules of your well practiced system of personal destruction. You are not my audience, just the means to reach them. Dr. F moved my original post to this thread from another. The inevitable attacks ensued, i gave back almost as good as i got. Many months ago declaring i am going to win this little argument. I believe it was Norton who requested me to show what I've got. My response; I'm not going in blind like Custer to be massacred. No, the battlefield must be carefully surveyed, all intelligence gathered, the enemy probed, this could take years.

There are deep troubles in the CAGW cult, not the least of which is that the weather is not cooperating. One spectacular prediction after another has failed- hundreds of millions were already supposed to have died from heat that supposedly should have risen in tandem with atmospheric CO2 content, this hasn't happened the limited absorption bandwidth of the mythical molecule has been saturated and the higher frequency heat radiation can't reradiate downwards but instead is conducting upwards out of the atmosphere towards the cold of space-now there is some physics in need of reevaluation and reinterpretation of the Stephan-Boltzmann law used as a construct to artificially and unsatisfactorily close Maxwell's equations. The Sea levels were met to rise several feet by now, according to the likes of Gore and Hansen, swamping low lying island nations such as The Maldives and Tuvulu Islands-this hasn't happened, in fact studies show that 87% of the Tuvlu's are stable or rising. The Poles melting were meant to have accelerated with an ice free Arctic already and whole Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets sliding off into the Sea- this hasn't happened, instead the Antarctic, contrary to prediction, is cooling and ice mass, especially in sea ice extent, is growing. The Arctic is at the end of warm cycles of the PDO and NAO, last year a severe Arctic cyclone broke up the ice in August and compacted it into restricted areas, it did not all melt, this year above 80 degrees north has been unusually cold and the storms of 2012 have not yet repeated with the result being that sea ice extent is recovering. Greenland is right back to normal temperatures without the surface melt the compliant media relentlessly hyped in 2012. Tornado's were meant to be more frequent and severe, droughts deepening and permanent, Hurricanes increasing in frequency and severity. Well it has been one of the quietest years for Tornado's in years, in fact discounting the increase of developed areas and the consequent property and life destruction of a relative few outbreaks, the frequency of Tornado's is decreasing compared to early decades of the 20th century. The drought's in the lower Midwest and southwest seems to have been drenched in repeated torrential downpours this year. Hurricane season has been unusually quiet for nearly a decade, there hasn't been a category four or larger hurricane make landfall in the U.S. since Katrina. The world over, scientists are acknowledging that the global mean average temperature ( if there could ever be such a thing) has plateaued and by many accounts is heading downwards. I could go on and on.

There are deep problems in the IPCC process and it's continued existence is in question as one country after another has pulled out of Kyoto and many others are demanding rewrites of AR5. Scientists are in open revolt, many previously high profile CAGW proponents have jumped ship-look at Judith Curry's story. The trickle of papers that the CAGW industry previously did their best to limit has turned into a torrent. Every aspect of the theory is being challenged, every region's proxy data reconstruction being reevaluated. The little ice age, medieval warm period, roman warm period are being revalidated and returning in a vengeance. The models are not getting better, the errors they exhibit in hind casting emphasized over and over, the flaws in the models predictives versus observed empirical evidence shown again and again.

Yet, our bureaucracy, our politicians, our corporate giants and ultra wealthy "intellectuals", our decreasing number of CAGW cult scientists are now engaged in a last gasp effort to impose a scheme of "necessarily skyrocketing" energy regulation and replacement by wholly inadequate "green energy" produced by not ready for prime time wind farms and solar arrays that cover thousands of square miles of land, degrade the environment and aesthetics, costs hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars and produce on an intermittent basis only 3% of our energy. This scheme, if allowed to accelerate, will not only render our remaining industry unprofitable, but will result in huge job loss and impoverish our middle class into indentured servitude.

Now is the time to turn this thing around. Even the mainstream media is waking up and beginning to acknowledge the problems and failings of climate science. There is hope for a bright future, while this debate has been raging natural evolution and market forces, despite government resistance, has resulted in new technologies in FF energy location and safe extraction to the point we now have at least a hundred year supply of clean burning natural gas ( 50% less CO2 emission and much less other real pollutants) that is naturally supplanting coal in energy generation. Our vehicles can also be fueled by NG starting with the commercial truck fleet. A new generation of nuclear technology has resulted in designs that are virtually failsafe and reprocess and reuse fuel to the point that spent fuel is only dangerous for a decade rather than thousands of years. We have much geothermal potential in this country and it is currently being expanded. The tens of billions of dollars wasted on the "prophets of Doom" singing the "gospels of doom" would be much better spent on research and development for real and viable next generation clean technology that is competitive with our current energy mix.

There is a best selling book in Germany- English language title translation of The Neglected Sun- that has become a bestseller and is waking up the population to the wrongness of the CAGW science and the dangers of the implementation of carbon taxation and shortcomings of the replacement of energy production with windmills and solar. One of its authors was previously an executive in the wind energy industry. Anyway the book will be available here in America shortly and should be quite eye opening. Any fence sitters out there that are willing to climb down on this side? If so PM me with your mailing addresses and i will buy and amazon copies to the first ten people.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 4, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Extensive review of the history of the sun and climate change science.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#312885
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 4, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
If only there were 100 years of reproducible experiments that clearly show how increased CO2 affects air temperature...
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Aug 4, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
A readable and reality-based alternative to Rick's long rant above, this article from two days ago in the Financial Times:

What climate scientists talk about now
...
But there is one thing the final version
[of the forthcoming IPCC 5th Assessment Report] must include when it is published next month, according to Sir Bob Watson, the British scientist and climate action advocate who chaired the IPCC for nearly six years up to 2002. “I think the current Working Group I report must address in detail the slowing down in the last 10 years,” he said, adding that although the past three decades were probably the warmest in 1,000 years, “there is also no question that it would appear that the rate of change in the last decade or so is definitely slower than the previous two decades.”

“The IPCC must address this because the climate deniers are linking on to this as a reason to say we’ve got all the science wrong. So I think one of the very most important issues is indeed for them to address this issue absolutely head on.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/4084c8ee-fa36-11e2-98e0-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2b1z1z01m
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Ed, I certainly don't mean to start any sh#t with you. I enjoy and respect ur posts immensely!!
It just seemed odd coming from you. But what do I know? If big brother can do it so can you as far as I'm concerned. So go for it!

The only prize to win here, is respect.


Rick, I think ur post was outstanding! My address is in the mail!
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