Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
hhmmm.. I see Mchale.. Even though i have enough training and classes to have a masters in forestry, youll not believe what i have to say. so much for all that first hand experience i guess. But just know this. Ive contributed GREATLY to helping the planets "systems" by helping create new bio mass to the tune of MILLIONS of specimens. Flora of all types. Fauna as well. There is no one here that cares MORE for our forests.

To quote one of the most prestigious foresters of all time,, "i think on it often"..




McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
To deny that any warming is taking place and that it contributes to the problems is................what is that? I'm not saying you don't care about the forests. It's very clear that others in your field will have a very different idea of what is going on though. What, are you the only Forester on the planet?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Ron, you are confounding the issue by using a number that is NOT relevant. That ".11 of one degree" increase is the global average and says nothing about local conditions.

http://www.uwyo.edu/haub/ruckelshaus-institute/_files/docs/publications/2010-bark-beetle-workshop-proceedings.pdf

Read page 5

The current forest composition can be attributed to the past century (or more) of natural environmental conditions and disturbances, as well as past management decisions, including fire and timber policy. Many wildfires have been suppressed throughout the twentieth century, leading to denser stands of trees in a susceptible age category in some forest types, such as ponderosa pine, and leading to less diversity of age classes
in other areas. Timber harvest practices of the late 1800s and
early 1900s also contributed to more even-aged and even-sized
stands that are now susceptible to beetles (Negron 1998; Fettig
et al. 2007; Bentz et al. 2009).

Climate conditions
Two climatic factors are likely interacting to facilitate the magnitude of the current epidemic: 1) drought-induced stress on host trees, which reduces defense mechanisms (Mattson and Haack 1987); and 2) warmer winter temperatures that increase overwinter survival of beetles and can speed up reproductive cycles in some species (Cole 1981; Bentz et al. 2009). Together, these two factors have created prime conditions that have resulted in the marked increase of bark beetle populations (Raffa et al. 2008). The bark beetlesí tolerance to cold is dynamically Figure 4. A) Beetle galleries; B) Blue-stain fungus in lodgepole pine.

The bark beetlesí tolerance to cold is dynamically dependent on the temperature regime experienced by a given species, so a simple low temperature threshold cannot fully explain the role of temperature in beetle survival (Bentz and Mullins 1999). However, when prolonged drought is coupled with increasingly shorter periods of severe cold and overall warmer winter temperatures, the likelihood of all bark beetle speciesí
survival greatly increases (Bentz et al. 2010).


Even though i have enough training and classes to have a masters in forestry

Classes don't get you a MS.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
LOL Chief, your graph shows about 1.1 C rise per century using 1996-2013 trend.

Thanks, man, that's quite a '17 year pause'.



To help you out, splitting hadCRUT3,4:

1996: .24 C
2013: .44 C

Let see if you can do the math.
raymond phule

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:15pm PT

Even though i have enough training and classes to have a masters in forestry, youll not believe what i have to say. so much for all that first hand experience i guess.

The irony. People should listen to you on a subject where you could have taken a masters degree but you see no problem in ignoring scientists with a PhD when you don't like their conclusions.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Wes what that article you copied fails to mention is that beetles by nature "sense" or smell STRESSED trees to attack. As a group of beetles begin to work, trees start dying. The Spread then happens through the fact that those dead trees now act as sponges of moisture as well as rotting conditions that lead to various fungi as well. Soils dry out due to loss of crown. So they radiate outward each "layer" of new trees becoming stressed by the previous yrs kill. This has been going on since BEFORE the industrial revolution.


edit: McHale, i was not a forester, but a forestry technician.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Ron, what you fail to do is realize the role of references in a scientific article.

Soils dry out due to loss of crown.

No way in HELL a beetle kill tree dries out the soil more than a living tree.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
When exposed to direct sunlight below a dead tree the soils do indeed dry out faster. And that dead tee robs further moisture from the air and soils like a sponge. Sheesh,, its the very basis of "Tolerant vs Intolerant" species.


Look at Mcllelans peak for proof of what i say. At one time it was covered in Jeffrey, fir and sugar pine. It was logged 100% and the soils dryed out, changing the climate of the entire massive of that peak to a artemesia habitat.



Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
The soil below beetle kill trees is not exposed to direct sunlight for a few years or more ("red phase").

The change in habitat you mention around McClellans (?) was most likely due to the fact that it was "logged 100%" and has NOTHING to do with beetle kill. Beetle kill trees still shed their needles, providing organic matter to the forest floor. Organic matter is the main component of soil that holds onto moisture.

Logging at 100% in that environment is IDIOTIC, as evident from the results. Driven by PROFIT no doubt, without a CARE for the land.

Were you part of that operation? What was the prescription for soil organic matter and soil cover?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Down in Oregon they are cutting junipers to keep water in the soil. THAT sounds pretty goofy. They claim the junipers are stealing the 'peoples' water.

First link in a search comes up with this. This quote below is from the first post in the blog. It's so stupid what is going on down there;
http://www.hcn.org/issues/44.16/the-great-new-mexican-juniper-massacre

Fast forward to Central Oregon-the Bend Bulletin recently ran a piece that claimed junipers were an invasive species that out-compete native grass for water. The Bulletin claimed a mature juniper soaks up 40 gallons a day and dessicates the soil, and that it is practically a civic duty to cut as much juniper as possible to save the land from drought. Total BS, but really bad ideas in range management seem to be practically immortal.

Ron, I used Forester as a general term, did not mean any kind of distinction.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
uhhhh Wes,, calm down.. That took place in the GOLD rush of the comstock lol!

Back when science of any factor was still in infancy.


Every last stick save for about a half dozen fir or pine were cut from that peak to use in buildings, mines and firewood during the goldrush. They had no clue what they were doing except harvesting that silly sought after metal. Most all of the pinion pine in that area came from the Chinese and are actually an invasive sub specie. Long ago i was involved in some profile pits and stump exams of old sugar pine on that peak. I also was on the fire that took out the 100 yr old sage on it after that comstock debacle. Ive seen many a change to that hill.




edit: Just wanted to make sure you werent giving me a title i did not have Mchale lol!


And yes, living things take up water/soil/nutrients. So do dead ones.

But dead ones only absorb so much and they are done. The green keep on giving and taking. ( much like people);-)


Ol plantation saying "GREEN SIDE UP DUMMY!" Repeated several times daily for inmate crews lol!


we planted trees in Georgia once where you kept the top leader roots OUT of the ground.. Humidity running 80 + % most of the year and all LOL!





edit:



The average mass of a tree is about 3 tons and roughly two thirds of this is cellulose matter consisting of carbon. Therfore your average tree has about two tons of carbon in it which will have been sequestered during a typical 70 year growth.

What you need to consider however, is that when a tree dies the carbon that was stored in it is released back into the atmosphere (unless itís preserved as timber in buildings, furniture etc). Over itís lifetime a tree is effectively nothing more than a temporary store of carbon dioxide.

What you need if youíre going to use trees to permanently remove trees carbon dioxide from the atmosphere are the sort that produce a yield such as fruit, resin, gum, rubber etc. Planted in the right locations such trees remove an average of 30kg of CO2 each year (this is after allowing for their eventual decomposition, during their lifetime they remove about 50kg per year).


BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
In Oklahoma and many other plains states, we are being overrun with eastern red cedar. They have taken over because of the lack of big prairie fires before white people showed up. In a fire, they go up like they are made of diesel fuel.

It is a big problem. Removing invasive species that cause trouble is a good thing, particularly when they cause problems. Just look at the Zebra mussel's in the Great Lakes. They showed up in ballast tanks of Asian ships. Now the beaches are solid zebra mussel shells, and they cause all kinds of problems with water intake pipelines.

Another nasty is the lamprey. Those things look like eels, have a round mouth which attaches to a big fish, and eats it until it dies.

Death by lamprey would be horrific if it happened to humans. They are like 3 foot long leeches.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
You forgot the invasive species known as the Human there BASE.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Yeah! Specially in Yosemite! Haha!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
I know some of you warmers have been stressed out about arctic sea ice with the plight of the hollywood Polar Bears and all.Seems it's shaping up to be one of the coldest summer seasons in Arctic history above 80 north.

http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Yes Rick. I too have been monitoring the Arctic Sea Ice content. It is actually staying ABOVE 2000 AVG levels. I am very curious to see what happens around Sept time frame if it maintains it's current higher than 2000 Avg and if old CHILOE or any other of the AGW loons report it as such if it does.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
What you need to consider however, is that when a tree dies the carbon that was stored in it is released back into the atmosphere (unless itís preserved as timber in buildings, furniture etc).

What you need to consider is that you are Wrong. THOUSANDS of gigatonnes of carbon is stored in forest SOILS... more carbon storage than in all the living vegetation or in the atmosphere. That carbon is released when forest soils are degraded... by, say, clear cutting or high intensity fires.




Zebra mussels are headed toward Tahoe. Some here, I won't say who, are wrong in thinking they are no big deal and just another "eco-scare" to be disregarded. Same type of folk who would cry about the tourist/fishing industry being destroyed by not stalking Sierra lakes with invasive fish. I don't think they have been found in Tahoe yet (definitely some on incoming boats intercepted at the inspection stations), but imagine the tourist industry in Tahoe if the beaches were covered with Zebra mussels. I know we have Asian clams already... haven't seen any in person yet, just on the internet... they don't look that bad to me.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 28, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
so to say it another way, the arctic sea ice extent is low this year...
again.


Yes but fact is it is rising in extent this season compared to the last 10-12 seasons. But of course we can't emphasize that part can we now. Not conducive to the AGW fatalistic ideology.


raymond phule

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 11:24pm PT

Seems it's shaping up to be one of the coldest summer seasons in Arctic history above 80 north.

How do you manage to often make a claim that is obviosly not backed up with your link?
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:09am PT
I like to read your take on the forests Ron--seems like you have a viewpoint that if you backed it up with citations or articles would be sound science...

I don't have a camera or I would post up a pick of a point that was given to me recently...also my grandfather made a few points of his own to see how they were made...also have a full blooded Cherokee as a grandfather but he married my grandmother after my mom's dad died long ago...

climate is going crazy with extreme weather events all around...hate to see the heat wave in the west with the fire season already in full swing...
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