Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 30, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Looks like there is a little conflict of interest associated with Ed's employment in the military/enviro/industrial complex. A judge or juror would be required to recuse themselves from this discussion because of the obvious tendency towards bias. How do you spell TAINTED.

Norton, official weather stations were few and far between in the 1930's. The unofficial temps from that period are discounted somewhat-you have to look a little beyond what is commonly available on the internet.Thanks Norton. Yes I know that Norton. As the Earth gets deeper into this solar driven cooling trend more records will fall. Currently South America has been suffering record cold temps. The Midwest just shattered cold temps for this date in July. The all time record northern Hemisphere cold temp of 96 F below zero was established this last winter. We just endured the record longest lasting winter in mid to upper latitudes in northern hemisphere history. There is a chilly reception a coming for these hotheads.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
you are most welcome rick

just pointing out the increasing tendencies even in Alaska for record heat waves

boy was June a cooker there!

records don't get set all the time, just more frequently now that the earth continues to warm

but, you knew that
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
just pointing out the increasing tendencies even in Alaska for record heat waves

Gotta timeframe for them "records".
dirtbag

climber
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Looks like there is a little conflict of interest associated with Ed's employment in the military/enviro/industrial complex. A judge or juror would be required to recuse themselves from this discussion because of the obvious tendency towards bias. How do you spell TAINTED.

I agree, Chief should recuse himself.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Gotta timeframe for them "records".

yes I do!

last month, June, across Alaska

I posted all the records set there recently a page or two back, chief

check it out or just google alaska record heat wave
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Pretty funny Ed. The well practiced technique of personal destruction so prevalent from your guys side of the issue. How arrogant- since you don't have a title following your name you guys assume the general publics inability to reason and try to enforce exclusion from thinking.
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
And this isn't a "trial," it's about science, if you can't make a science case

That there is the problem ED. Far more at stake here than a handful of "scientist" claiming what they do, then making policy based on that. Policy that will impact the entire world's economy and way of life. All based on "if". "IF" is all you have. That "IF" is a very broad term that may just turn into "Wasn't".

But, climate science does not look at things in that respect. They are too focused on pounding their chest and demanding that they are correct. That only they know the science. Regardless those "skeptic" scientist that stand against the consensus and warn that maybe the consensus just isn't right. That going forward with what the information that is on hand just is not right.

Then comes the point that all this really has nothing to do with real science. It has all to do with a political ideological stance on how things should be. The science is just manipulated ammo to insist it must be done in that fashion. But of course you all will never concede to that reality. It only opens the door to the truth of this entire issue.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
since you don't have a title following your name you guys assume the general publics inability to reason

No, you totally made that up, rick. Smart people don't assume that, and certainly no one has to assume it about someone who proves his inabilities with every post.

Prosecuting Ed for conflict of interest is stupid. Do you turn down those Permanent Fund checks each year? Does your income in no way depend on the rise or fall of Alaska's petro economy? This game goes nowhere.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA

Jul 30, 2013 - 09:34am PT
What part of what i have been telling you guys do you not understand?
with all due respect, you're a math challenged real estate agent...








Yes Ed,, nothing to return there eh? (ahem)




Then there is Bruce with never ending psycho analysis of us,, and the ones that chime in here ONLY to throw a few insults... The need to go lower in methodology is the reaction of knowing thats all you have left. Its like running out of bullets then throwing rocks - its the only choice left. The ONLY "super fires" occurred before the industrial revolution but that hasnt stopped them from attaching it to the bad wagon now has it.

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
CHILOE:
Smart people don't assume that

Really? Smart people are assuming now. That there answers many questions. Especially in regards to this issue. We all know what the end result of "assuming" is. Pretty much spot on in this regards, Larry.

Then there is Bruce with never ending psycho analysis of us

The only thing Bruce is psycho analyzing is Bruce.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Yes Chiloe I will grant you that we all suffer conflict of interest to one degree or another. I object to being called a real estate agent-I am a builder in Ak and NV.

To highlight the STILL uncertain nature of the climate change of the near immediate past I dug up a paper by some European physicists examining attribution of the 20th century warming-anthropogenic versus natural. You guys will probably not look at it since it doesn't exactly go your way.

http://www.eike-klima-energie.eu/uploads/media/How_natural.pdf
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
since you don't have a title following your name you guys assume the general publics inability to reason

Incorrect, Ricky.

I assume your inability to reason based on the deluge of idiotic sh#t you post, demonstrating with a high degreee of probability that you are, in fact, a moron. And that holds regardless of whatever letters you add to your name there Cletus P. Coltrane Esq., MS, JD, CPA, MFA.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Hey now,,, Thats Cletus Emeritus to U... LOL!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
I know that whatever I say in defense of Ed and Chiloe pales in comparison to the authoritativeness of what they've said, but I cannot simply read silently when people attack them.

The alleged conflict of interest is a red herring in this case. A court hears interested witnesses all the time. An interested judge would disqualify him- or herself, but the question of interest for witnesses comes to one of the weight of testimony.

In this case, the testimony of Ed and Chiloe in my court carries great weight for at least the following reasons:

1. Data are data. They report what people saw, and how they analyzed it. Anyone can duplicate the analysis. Yes, I know about the issues of accessibility of some of the data, but that doesn't change how one interprets it.

2. As professional scientists, they are, in fact, disinterested. They also happen to be opinionated, based on what they've seen and read. The whole reason we admit testimony in court from experts who lack personal knowledge of the facts of the case is to hear their opinions and know their methodology. An expert's very usefulness depends on learning their opinions.

3. We need to distinguish between the science of climate, and the economics of it. In my experience, much of the denial I read and hear about climate change is really expression of an opinion about what to do about it. That's not necessarily irrational, since we're dealing with a lot of nonexperimental data, but we need to differentiate between the science and the economics. [Please note that, as a professional economist, I do not see economics as science.]

4. In the same manner, the fact that Ed and Chiloe undoubtedly have opinions about what we ought to do does not disqualify or denigrate their opinions on what's happening with our climate. If anything, I listen more carefully to what they say because they can articulate risks of which I would otherwise be unaware.

Again, I think rational and knowledgeable people can disagree over what we should do, but the personal attacks I have read on climate scientists generally -- not just here -- make me wish that people would at least be clear and honest about what bothers them. We should be talking about whether the cure is worse than the disease. Instead, too many try to say there is no disease.

John
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
What JEleazarian said. +1
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Mike quit peekin from round that corner !;-) and Mono,,, GUD one!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Noce post John.

I especially like this:


3. We need to distinguish between the science of climate, and the economics of it.


While many of the denier's here attack the economics of climate change, that does not change the science behind the ball.


And for many, it's back to the 1,2,3-step that DMT so graciously outlined for us.
The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 30, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
We should be talking about whether the cure is worse than the disease. Instead, too many try to say there is no disease.

You forgot one. Acceptance that the disease is nothing new. The disease has been around since day one. We as humans may just succumb to the disease as many other species in the past have obviously done. That has far more reaching consequences in this particular issue. As ED and Chiloe etal frantically make the disease out to be something we have created and that we can fix. There lies the true uncertainty of this entire deal. Regardless the "new" science that insists what it does.


but the personal attacks I have read on climate scientists generally -- not just here -- make me wish that people would at least be clear and honest about what bothers them.

Far more attacks are thrown at any "skeptic" scientist by the "consensus" than by the "skeptic" side towards the "consensus" side. Both ED and Chiloe are guilty of that. Each and every time a "skeptic" scientist opinion is introduced, they and all the other begin the insult volleys. Immediately discrediting them all. Each and every one. Insisting that the only real good science comes from the consensus.

Bias. Damn right.




DMT and so many others here are just tribal ideological sheep. Period.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
Far more attacks are thrown at any "skeptic" scientist by the "consensus" than by the "skeptic" side towards the "consensus" side. Both ED and Chiloe are guilty of that.


The Chief, you are full of bull.


Go back to the first responses that Ed gave directly to you, THE CHIEF. He was kind, patient. You, on the other hand, were a blow-hard of the worst kind. You threw everything you had a Ed to unhinge him, and is patience was that of a saint. That he finally resorted to a bit of name calling didn't surprise me a bit--but take accountability for your actions. It was you who started the rude behavior here, and you deserve every single name spit out in your direction.

And I can copy and paste that last paragraph, replacing Ed's name with Chiloe's.

Go home little boy, the men are talking now.
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