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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 30, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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V-2. Some things are worth taking years to perfect...
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jun 30, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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Go ahead and work Astroman if you are keen to do so. The only things that matter are (1) that you are getting what you want out of your climbing, and (2) that your tactics do not hinder others getting what they want out of climbing.
With respect to #2 above, gear left on a route that is not in use is trash and/or booty, whether that route is Freerider or After Six. Now I admit that what constitutes being "in use" is a fuzzy kind of line. If someone fixes lines and goes down for another night on the ground, that seems OK to me. But when folks leave fixed lines on something for weeks, or the whole season, or more (e.g., Watkins a couple of years back), it is trash and subject to removal as far as I am concerned.
The idea that it is OK to skirt ethical standards just because the route is hard (or, even worse, to make it 'convenient') is repugnant. The whole point is to bring yourself up to the level of the climb, not to bring the climb down to your level. I'm speaking here mostly of ethics, which impact everyone's experience of a climb (e.g., retrobolting, leaving trash on route, leaving tick marks on routes after you are done [maybe even placing them in the first place], etc.) rather than style, which only impacts your own experience of a climb (e.g., aid or free, rehearsed or onsight, etc.). Although I think the point holds for matters of style as well.
A bit of an off-topic rant I guess. If you think you can free Astroman by working the pitches, and doing so seems rewarding to you, I say do it.
Brian
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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Simply as a logical exercise it seems to me this breaks down into two critical elements.
Style
Courtesy for others
As to style, as long as the rock is not changed, it should be up to the climber. If you enjoy spending many days learning how to get up something, go do it.
As to courtesy for others, it is another matter. If one stays on a route in such a manner as to prevent others from enjoying it, you are out of bounds.
If ropes or other equipment are left on a route in the climber's absence, you are out of bounds. If you think you may be unable to complete in one day, take a butt bag. Spend the night and have a memorable climb.
Potentially the most difficult situation as regards courtesy involves parties passing. It seems that is handled fairly well.
A party that finds equipment on a route should feel they have the freedom to drop the equipment if they feel it has been an imposition. It won't always be for everyone. But the option should be there, with no reservations.
Natural processes find their equilibrium only when there is "feedback." If it were not necessary that bills be paid we all would be drunken sailors. If one thinks their rope may be dropped they will have the feedback needed to make the appropriate decisions.
I have never encountered a left rope. Finding gear never caused me any distress. I actually looked forward to that eventuality. IMO a rope left on a climb is just simply poor.
Before jumars came along no one even considered leaving a rope. No point unless you were into batmaning.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 30, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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"i have a hard time imagining "sieging" as an issue in the valley, when the premiere route on the premiere cliff is almost universally aided over a period of days. "
It's a much bigger issue than it was in the past, mostly due to folks using fixed ropes on trade aid routes to work moves and pitches by folks wishing to free the routes.
Then the people who want to repeat the, now freed, route sometimes do the same.
So the question of "Where to draw the line?" is very real. Do we accept fixed lines each season on Leaning Tower, Freerider, or less popular routes as suitors get their moves dialed?
It's a tough one. Fixed lines were on leaning tower lately. It killed some of the adventure for folks doing some of their first walls (but also bailed a few people out of their epics) And helped an aspiring wall free climber get their rad prize. Winners and losers all around. How to decide?
PEace
karl
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john hansen
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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Ask the Russians..
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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5th.....just 5th.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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How difficult does it have to be? Depends on how I feel that day.
Curt
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kev
climber
CA
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If sieging involves copious amount of beer and fixed lines I've been there, done it, and will continue.
My few beers worth
kev
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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^^^
Kev, could you possibly be speaking of the 800 ft or so of fixed rope and some mention of more beer, pizza, and safety equipement?
Downward bound!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Gdavis,
I agree with Stannard that this largely boils down to style and courtesy, mostly. But if you want advise from real highly experienced climbers as to how to proceed with a climbing career, I would then add that in 46 years I never sieged a climb---never approached a climb in the manner you propose. And I didn’t know any top level climbers who did. And it has only been recently that we have frequently been sieging giant free climbs, all of which are in the 5.13 and higher category.
Pretty much without exception I chose to spend my time climbing routes that I understood I probably could do. By spending all the time climbing I of course consequently got in a lot of climbing and did not get in others’ way while having a very embarassing fantasy about what I thought I was doing. Because the routes I chose followed a logical development nearly always, I improved very rapidly, had therefore an awesome foundation to work off of; I reached the top end of the scale and stayed there for quite a few years and have had one hell of life in climbing with literally many miles of hard free climbing accomplished.
When you hang around on an established route of the difficulty you suggest (merely 5.11-ish) and eventually do “the moves” as you suggest, you have not done the climb and probably have not done those pitches either. And yet you imagine you have “kind-of/sort-a” done Astroman and as time goes by you will be more and more convinced of this dream as you think back on it. And yet you never did the climb. A climb is not "moves".
It just is the strongest way of seeing to start at the bottom, get to the top, come down and not be pulled into fantasies, peeking into Mom and Dad’s bedroom. Go do routes that are near your limit; do tons of them; work off of an ever-improving platform rather than leaping into territory you don’t actually understand at all.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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As a way to contextualize Peter's comments and references to his own climbing career see Left Side of Hourglass and/or the first solo of the Salathe. One might consider doing those in fine style before considering a siege.
Having been thoroughly humbled at Indian Rock last night I'll be sieging an apple fritter.
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jstan
climber
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I did not try to get into the opinion side but Peter's experience is very close to my own FWIW. Where I was climbing there are few cracks but I found a nice overhanging one and so I tried it, 12 times. As I was getting to its top out of the blue I thought, "This isn't climbing. This is BS. That's it. No more."
Climbing's greatest rewards, I think, come from covering lots of ground, movement if you will, while at the same time building confidence and skill. The thread on North Twin, though in a different medium, reaches in and grabs the heart of it all.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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To add to what John and Peter have wisely said, climbing loses its dreamlike quality once adventure slithers out the back door. I don't siege routes either, knowing that my best effort comes from preparation and clear intent. If you are battling the desire to employ trickery and tactics when things get tough and scary for you, at whatever grade, the intense focus needed to have a breakthrough experience is simply much harder to achieve. It is deeply satisfying to summon your best effort in the face of the unknown and accept the results knowing that adventure is the key to a long and fulfilling life of climbing. That kind of joy makes all the risk and hardship purposeful and rewarding.
If you want to do Astroman, then get busy and inspired! Those boys were, on that day! You can have a piece of that too, if you don't let your ego take the stage.
A little boy inside a dream just the other day
His mind fell out of his face and the wind blew it away
A hand came out from heaven and pinned a badge on his chest
It said get out there, man, and do your best
They call him astro man
And he's flyin' higher than
That faggot superman ever could
Oh, they call him cosmic nut
And he's twice as dense as donald duck
And he'll try his best to screw you up
The rest of your mind
Oh, look out! my guitars
Astro man, flyin' across the sky two times higher
Than that old faggot superman ever, ever could
Ever could
There he goes, there he goes
Where he stops, no one knows
There he goes, there he goes
He's tryin' to, tryin' to blow out the rest of your mind
He's gonna blow out the rest of your mind
Talkin' about lookin' for peace of mind
Astro man will leave it in pieces
Have you put your trouble behind him
Make you fly around in pieces
Yeah, blow out the rest of your mind
Astro man will blow out the rest of your mind
He's gonna blow out the rest of your mind
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